Should add-ons be allowed?

emopyronecrosis

Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.

Darlantan wrote: »

Darlantan wrote: »

First : ESO is not WoW

Blackwidow wrote: »

He never said it was. He was just using an example.

It does not change the fact. i could use any example from another game to prove a point but it does mean it apply to ESO.

Darlantan wrote: »

Two : So because some people can't troubleshoot we should not be allowed to have addon?

Blackwidow wrote: »

That is not what he said. He would just rather they come dirctly from ZOS, so there is real support behind the programming.

Sorry, it does not sound like what he say.

Anyway, even if the addon came from ESO directly, do you think they would know what exactly is causing you some trouble to you and not to the other players. I mean do you think because they work for ESO they will magically know everything you have on your computer that might be affecting the game?

I had one addon causing me trouble. I read the post related to that addon and i choose to delete it (i tested first to confirm it was the addon in question the root of my trouble). Took me 5 min to do all that and 0 min for ESO to troubleshoot or fix in the game because the bug was not caused by the game or something they added to it.

Darlantan wrote: »

What addon give you an advantage over another one in ESO?

Blackwidow wrote: »

Are you asking what addon gives a player an advantage over an player with no addon?

Yes and not...

If i use an addon, what are those advantage you are talking about?

Also, if i have such an advantage, what addon do give us that advantage, what addon is it that make us god among mortal since you seem to imply that by using them force the other player to use it? What name does that or those addon have?

3 addons that give advantages - HarvestMap, Garkins Soul Shards, Garkins Lore Books. Soul Shards unlock skill points, Lore Books level Mages Guild tree, HarvestMap lets you find nodes on the map after you collect them account wide.

Addons are also what botters use to set up Macros using ingame API functions origonally used by developers for controlled testing - ever watch dev streams on any game, when a dev spawns a person named "Real Player" and it runs in, and kills people and they josh saying "Yeah, these bots are you guys, the players, we use them during testing" those API functions are in every retail client, and botters use those API functions unlocked by installing addons into their games, this allows them to log into bot accounts, the bot then uses preset macros to do the tasks assigned.

The addons simply allow it, example some bots run super fast - and clip threw the environment or teleport, these are actually console comands developers use durring development to spawn a rock, then move and lock it into place, and to move a camera to a specific location on the map, clip is used to inject items under the ground, such as rocks and caverns, some rocks "underwater" are actually partially under the map as well, speed alterations are typically used by developers to increase the speed in which their camera can scan a zone.

All this console commands are locked on retail threw API tweaks, but are still within the games files, addons can then be made to break those locks and use those console commands as they gather resources, which re given to the bots owner to sell for gold, which is then sold for real life currency, that is how botting is done.

Addons are made to add and modify things within the games API, most of these are benevelent, but people who know how to code also use these to break API, the only way Zenimax can entirly stop botting, is by altering their Terms of Service making using bots an offence that can get your account banned, IP banned, and also be sued for money by selling in game items that never belonged to them. Zenimax Online dvelops the game, and any in game item belongs to Zenimax by digital property laws, they need to enforce those laws on gold sellers, and begin mass lawsuits on websites selling in game currency for real life money, profiting off a game that they technically don't own outside of a retail disk.

similar to a world of warcraft account/charecter, players don't OWN them, they're the property of Blizzard and if caught selling your account or anything that is inside Worlds of Warcraft your account would be banned, IP banned, and you could be sued by Blizzard/Activision.

Jeremy

No. They give players too many advantages/disadvantages.

PhoenixWing wrote: »

P.S. @ZeroInspiration‌ I think that add-on don't work anymore since the patch that stop allowing you to teleport to yourself.

link:
http://www.esoui.com/downloads/info224-Jumper.html

But for awhile at least it did work.

So it enabled cheating. That is proof enough right there that these add-ons can be used to cheat. Because it has already happened.

holygraell

I would allow add-ons just for the lack of some functionality in game. I speak specifically of the lack of any kind of real search function in the guild stores. I use the guild store add on for that. I do find it annoying to have to search 'materials' generally and get page upon page of results including jewelry which can't even be used (as yet) for any kind of crafting, when all I want is some ore.
As for the rest of the add-ons, I can do without them.

I don't feel the need to tell anyone else how to play their game though. We each pay the subscription and should be able to choose our own methods, within reason. As to 'cheating' I don't think that if someone uses a skyshard marking add-on that it is cheating. So they don't take the same amount of time to search them out as you do. Whatever. Play your way, get over it and quit your whining. Their use of that add-on doesn't impact you at all. Just means you spend more time exploring which you obviously enjoy anyway. As do I. So just play on and shush. No one is interested in your whine unless you give us some cheese and crackers to go with it. ;P

Jeremy

No. They give players too many advantages/disadvantages.

holygraell wrote: »

I would allow add-ons just for the lack of some functionality in game.

But you should not have to depend on add-ons for functionality in a game.

Features such as a decent search tool should be in the official game. That's another reason why I oppose the promotion of add-ons. It encourages the developers to neglect important aspects of development.

ZeroInspiration

Jeremy wrote: »

PhoenixWing wrote: »

P.S. @ZeroInspiration‌ I think that add-on don't work anymore since the patch that stop allowing you to teleport to yourself.

link:
http://www.esoui.com/downloads/info224-Jumper.html

But for awhile at least it did work.

So it enabled cheating. That is proof enough right there that these add-ons can be used to cheat. Because it has already happened.

That does not mean that all add-ons enable cheating. That was an example of one that allowed to do so, but in my original post I also used another example of a useful add-on that gives no unfair advantage whatsoever. In any case Jumper is also an example of how quick Zeni fixes exploitable api permissions. Like I said, add-ons that allow better customization and utility should be allowed those that give unfair advantages should not.


@emopyronecrosis‌ If you have to "break locks" that is hacking, not the same as making an add-on. Under that logic most programmers in the world should be placed under watch and penalized because they are potential hackers. Just because someone has the skills/knowledge to do something doesn't mean they will do it, most people are usually ethical.

Jeremy

No. They give players too many advantages/disadvantages.

ZeroInspiration wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

PhoenixWing wrote: »

P.S. @ZeroInspiration‌ I think that add-on don't work anymore since the patch that stop allowing you to teleport to yourself.

link:
http://www.esoui.com/downloads/info224-Jumper.html

But for awhile at least it did work.

So it enabled cheating. That is proof enough right there that these add-ons can be used to cheat. Because it has already happened.

That does not mean that all add-ons enable cheating. That was an example of one that allowed to do so, but in my original post I also used another example of a useful add-on that gives no unfair advantage whatsoever. In any case Jumper is also an example of how quick Zeni fixes exploitable api permissions. Like I said, add-ons that allow better customization and utility should be allowed those that give unfair advantages should not.

I never said all add-ons enable cheating.

But clearly there has already been at least one that did. And the game is barely a month old.

So that alone proves that cheating in respect to add-ons is a very valid and reasonable concern. Those who suggest otherwise are misguided IMHO. Because it's already happened and will happen again.

kewl

Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.

There is noting in the API that permits cheating.

Its the same information from the default UI, just presented differently. I don't see anything wrong with having choices.

If you don't like addons, don't use them. Please stop insisting that I do.

Now, can we go back to griping about bugs and bots?

PhoenixWing

Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.

Jeremy wrote: »

PhoenixWing wrote: »

P.S. @ZeroInspiration‌ I think that add-on don't work anymore since the patch that stop allowing you to teleport to yourself.

link:
http://www.esoui.com/downloads/info224-Jumper.html

But for awhile at least it did work.

So it enabled cheating. That is proof enough right there that these add-ons can be used to cheat. Because it has already happened.

I agree with you that add-ons should not be allowed to perform features that do not exist.

However, in this case (Jumper add-on), it is the fault on Zenimax part, not the add-ons' that let this feature slipped.
Also, the fact that they fixed it confirms that they mistakenly made it available, so please do not use these bugs as an argument.

ZeroInspiration

@Jeremy And if Jumper was an indication, it will get fixed quickly.

Jeremy

No. They give players too many advantages/disadvantages.

kewl wrote: »

There is noting in the API that permits cheating.

It may appear that way. But trust me, people will find a way.

Instead of championing add-ons I think the better course of action would be to encourage the developers to implement features you would like to see into the official game.

That's the better solution.

Teevesnacks

Addons are already allowed

Jeremy

No. They give players too many advantages/disadvantages.

ZeroInspiration wrote: »

@Jeremy And if Jumper was an indication, it will get fixed quickly.

Once it's discovered, probably.

But there is no telling how many similar cheats go undetected.

ZeroInspiration

Jeremy wrote: »

ZeroInspiration wrote: »

@Jeremy And if Jumper was an indication, it will get fixed quickly.

Once it's discovered, probably.

But there is no telling how many similar cheats go undetected.

Unless if it's only one person using it, someone will notice. And even then it will be noticed sooner or later.

kewl

Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.

Jeremy wrote: »

It may appear that way. But trust me, people will find a way.

Come on man...let's not get draconian because there is a possibility of cheating. ANY system can be cheated.

Jeremy wrote: »

Instead of championing add-ons I think the better course of action would be to encourage the developers to implement features you would like to see into the official game.

I'm championing bot and bug fixing before tinkering with %$@# that isn't broken.

Jeremy

No. They give players too many advantages/disadvantages.

PhoenixWing wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

PhoenixWing wrote: »

P.S. @ZeroInspiration‌ I think that add-on don't work anymore since the patch that stop allowing you to teleport to yourself.

link:
http://www.esoui.com/downloads/info224-Jumper.html

But for awhile at least it did work.

So it enabled cheating. That is proof enough right there that these add-ons can be used to cheat. Because it has already happened.

I agree with you that add-ons should not be allowed to perform features that do not exist.

However, in this case (Jumper add-on), it is the fault on Zenimax part, not the add-ons' that let this feature slipped.
Also, the fact that they fixed it confirms that they mistakenly made it available, so please do not use these bugs as an argument.

You can't just ignore that it happened for the sake of debate.

The fact remains there has already been at least one add-on that allowed players to cheat. Rather it was Zenimax's fault or not is irrelevant to my argument.

It has already happened and will happen again. It's a legitimate concern and shouldn't be mocked or discounted (I'm not saying you did).

ZeroInspiration

@jeremy You mentioned the keyword right there, sometimes not all of the time. When it does happen someone will take notice and Zeni will fix it. Most things in life can be abused, there's no reason to prohibit those that will use these things to make things more enjoyable just because a small percentage of the population will use it wrongly/irresponsibly/unfairly.

Jeremy

No. They give players too many advantages/disadvantages.

kewl wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

It may appear that way. But trust me, people will find a way.

Come on man...let's not get draconian because there is a possibility of cheating. ANY system can be cheated.
.

That's true. But it gives cheaters an extra pathway to do it in. But as long as you admit it's possible to cheat through the use of add-ons I have no disagreement with you.

Just to clarify, cheating is only a small reason as to why I oppose add-ons. I have a lot of other reasons too. But I do feel cheating is a legitimate concern that needs to be taken seriously.

kewl wrote: »

I'm championing bot and bug fixing before tinkering with %$@# that isn't broken.

And that's fine

But I feel many of this game's more serious problems extend from an over-reliance on add-ons and other player-generated efforts.

Jeremy

No. They give players too many advantages/disadvantages.

ZeroInspiration wrote: »

@jeremy You mentioned the keyword right there, sometimes not all of the time. When it does happen someone will take notice and Zeni will fix it. Most things in life can be abused, there's no reason to prohibit those that will use these things to make things more enjoyable just because a small percentage of the population will use it wrongly/irresponsibly/unfairly.

If abuse was my only concern I would perhaps agree with you. Add-ons can enhance gameplay and make the game more enjoyable for the user. But they also lead to an atrophy in development and the neglect of important features.

They can also disadvantage players who do not want to risk using them. I have had friends who have been hacked while attempting to acquire add-ons. I have had friends who have been kicked from activities because they lacked certain add-ons.

When taken as a whole - I believe add-ons do more harm than good. They cause structural decay and gameplay imbalances among players. To me, these negatives out-weigh the conveniences they bring.

StoneSilence

Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.

Yes, they should be allowed, BUT only addons that display information that is already accessible by a person not using an addon.

Addons should be tools to provide easy access to available information, tools that make cosmetic modifications to interface, but nothing more.

ZeroInspiration

Jeremy wrote: »

ZeroInspiration wrote: »

@jeremy You mentioned the keyword right there, sometimes not all of the time. When it does happen someone will take notice and Zeni will fix it. Most things in life can be abused, there's no reason to prohibit those that will use these things to make things more enjoyable just because a small percentage of the population will use it wrongly/irresponsibly/unfairly.

If abuse was my only concern I would perhaps agree with you. Add-ons can enhance gameplay and make the game more enjoyable for the user. But they also lead to an atrophy in development and the neglect of important features.

They can also disadvantage players who do not want to risk using them. I have had friends who have been hacked while attempting to acquire add-ons. I have had friends who have been kicked from activities because they lacked certain add-ons.

When taken as a whole - I believe add-ons do more harm than good. They cause structural decay and gameplay imbalances among players. To me, these negatives out-weigh the conveniences they bring.

There I agree with you, no add-on should be seen as a requirement. As far a I know no such mod exists yet and doubt I that it will be made because api permissions are mostly cosmetic or for keeping info like HarvestMap and Librarian (which I recommend if you enjoy reading the none Lorebooks found in the world)

Jeremy

No. They give players too many advantages/disadvantages.

ZeroInspiration wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

ZeroInspiration wrote: »

@jeremy You mentioned the keyword right there, sometimes not all of the time. When it does happen someone will take notice and Zeni will fix it. Most things in life can be abused, there's no reason to prohibit those that will use these things to make things more enjoyable just because a small percentage of the population will use it wrongly/irresponsibly/unfairly.

If abuse was my only concern I would perhaps agree with you. Add-ons can enhance gameplay and make the game more enjoyable for the user. But they also lead to an atrophy in development and the neglect of important features.

They can also disadvantage players who do not want to risk using them. I have had friends who have been hacked while attempting to acquire add-ons. I have had friends who have been kicked from activities because they lacked certain add-ons.

When taken as a whole - I believe add-ons do more harm than good. They cause structural decay and gameplay imbalances among players. To me, these negatives out-weigh the conveniences they bring.

There I agree with you, no add-on should be seen as a requirement. As far a I know no such mod exists yet and doubt I that it will be made because api permissions are mostly cosmetic or for keeping info like HarvestMap and Librarian (which I recommend if you enjoy reading the none Lorebooks found in the world)

I hope you're right.

My past experiences with games that allowed add-ons suggests otherwise though. But I guess time will tell.

Thanks for the recommendations. The add-on that has tempted me the most is the one that allows me to mark my map. That's a useful tool I would really like to take advantage of. But I will remain principled and refrain from using them. One day I hope they will get around to implementing this feature into the official game.

Drasn

Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.

Jeremy wrote: »

PhoenixWing wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

PhoenixWing wrote: »

P.S. @ZeroInspiration‌ I think that add-on don't work anymore since the patch that stop allowing you to teleport to yourself.

link:
http://www.esoui.com/downloads/info224-Jumper.html

But for awhile at least it did work.

So it enabled cheating. That is proof enough right there that these add-ons can be used to cheat. Because it has already happened.

I agree with you that add-ons should not be allowed to perform features that do not exist.

However, in this case (Jumper add-on), it is the fault on Zenimax part, not the add-ons' that let this feature slipped.
Also, the fact that they fixed it confirms that they mistakenly made it available, so please do not use these bugs as an argument.

You can't just ignore that it happened for the sake of debate.

The fact remains there has already been at least one add-on that allowed players to cheat. Rather it was Zenimax's fault or not is irrelevant to my argument.

It has already happened and will happen again. It's a legitimate concern and shouldn't be mocked or discounted (I'm not saying you did).

Heres the thing, it wasn't the addon that allowed people to do that. In fact you can still do it to an extent with or without the addon. If you are in a guild open the guild roster. Right click on one of the player that are online. See the option that says travel to player(thats a free trip to a wayshrine.) You used to be able to travel to yourself.

It wasn't the addon that allowed it. All the addon did was make it so that you didn't have to open the guild roster first.

alphawolph

Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.

I won't play a game without add-ons. I cant stand games I can't customize.

Jeremy

No. They give players too many advantages/disadvantages.

thomas.k.grayb14_ESO wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

PhoenixWing wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

PhoenixWing wrote: »

P.S. @ZeroInspiration‌ I think that add-on don't work anymore since the patch that stop allowing you to teleport to yourself.

link:
http://www.esoui.com/downloads/info224-Jumper.html

But for awhile at least it did work.

So it enabled cheating. That is proof enough right there that these add-ons can be used to cheat. Because it has already happened.

I agree with you that add-ons should not be allowed to perform features that do not exist.

However, in this case (Jumper add-on), it is the fault on Zenimax part, not the add-ons' that let this feature slipped.
Also, the fact that they fixed it confirms that they mistakenly made it available, so please do not use these bugs as an argument.

You can't just ignore that it happened for the sake of debate.

The fact remains there has already been at least one add-on that allowed players to cheat. Rather it was Zenimax's fault or not is irrelevant to my argument.

It has already happened and will happen again. It's a legitimate concern and shouldn't be mocked or discounted (I'm not saying you did).

Heres the thing, it wasn't the addon that allowed people to do that. In fact you can still do it to an extent with or without the addon. If you are in a guild open the guild roster. Right click on one of the player that are online. See the option that says travel to player(thats a free trip to a wayshrine.) You used to be able to travel to yourself.

It wasn't the addon that allowed it. All the addon did was make it so that you didn't have to open the guild roster first.

We should be able to agree that add-ons can be used to cheat, regardless of how we interpret this one example. Because it's just not realistic to think no cheating ever occurs through the use of add-ons.

But putting the word cheat aside, they can offer significant advantages to other players such as Utility and Game Play Addons. These allow players to have enhanced control over their characters that other players do not have.

JessieColt

Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.

david271749 wrote: »

Please state why you voted yes or no below.

Yes. There are a lot of add-ons that enhance/help with the game.

Mini-Map
Crafting Timers ( How long you have left on your crafting timers).
Trait Trackers (The ability to see what traits you have researched when you are not at a crafting station)

Plus many more.

Convenience Add-Ons

Lorebooks Locations
Skyshard Locations
Horse Feed Timers

Plus many more.

The add-ons that help/enhance the game far outweigh those that are designed as cheats/hacks.

While it is always better for the game company to include abilities that are found in add-ons, it is nearly impossible in this day and age to implement everything that can be offered via the add-on community.

ZeniMax also understands that the Add-On Community can, and does, contribute to the enjoyment of their game. This is why there is a dedicated Add-On/Mod Forum here:

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/categories/add-ons-ui-mods

Zershar_Vemod

Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.

Haha, all these "add-ons are cheating!" people....

ThyIronFist

Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.

Blackwidow wrote: »

There should not be a need for addons.

Lazy lazy ZOS.

Also, some addons do blatantly let players cheat.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztVMib1T4T4

dietlime

Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.

david271749 wrote: »

Please state why you voted yes or no below.

I never thought I'd use UI addons but some of them have really helped tailor the experience in a good way. I've got one that keeps track of my research for me; and really before that I was just writing it all down on paper. I don't find that to be an unreasonably unfair advantage.

dietlime

Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.

Arsenic_Touch wrote: »

Blackwolfe5 wrote: »

Basically, addons are fine the way they are considering they can not be used to bot/fly/"wallhack"/teleport.

But the sky is falling. Clearly the restricted API is what's responsible for the current infestation of bots!

Still amazes me how people confused addons with mods and think that addons have anything to do with the bots. Mind boggling.

The ability to paint every resource node's potential position DOES need to be removed. Aside from being nearly cheating when you're using it manually, this is part of how the bots farming nodes are able to operate.

Jeremy

No. They give players too many advantages/disadvantages.

JessieColtub17_ESO wrote: »

david271749 wrote: »

Please state why you voted yes or no below.

While it is always better for the game company to include abilities that are found in add-ons, it is nearly impossible in this day and age to implement everything that can be offered via the add-on community.

So if it's always better for the game company to include these features, why are you supporting the delegation of these functions over to the add-on community?

Just because it's impossible to implement everything that seems like a poor reason to simply hand the reigns over to a mishmash of unpredictable and unreliable add-on creators to do what the developers themselves should be working on.