Should add-ons be allowed?

Jeremy

No. They give players too many advantages/disadvantages.

ckf12b14_ESO wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

ckf12b14_ESO wrote: »

Wait, people actually want to get rid of add-ons because they think it's cheating? Are you insane or just mentally impaired?

If an add-on is blatantly cheating, it's banned. You think if add-ons in general were banned, cheating programs would just go away? That's the thing with cheaters; /they don't follow the rules/. They'll just cheat around the rules anyways. In the meantime, legitimate players get to suffer from bad UI because people wanted add-ons banned "4 da cheatz".

They offer advantages.

Rather you want to call it cheating or not is debatable.

Of course they do. But are these advantages putting anyone directly ahead of anyone else? No, they aren't. All add-ons offer are quality of life advantages, there's no "wow i get bonus stats from this add-on!!".

In terms of stat increases no, they don't put players ahead of others. In terms of being able to navigate the interface or use the game's systems more effectively, they do.

mikeleg34_ESO

Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.

Yes. There are certain basic features the game should ship with, like; mouse-over comparisons of inventory and equipped gear, but ZOS can't possibly add every addon players *might* use.

Drasn

Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.

Jeremy wrote: »

They may not be advantageous on a competitive level. But they are still advantages and offer you improved tools that increase your ability to navigate the game's systems more effectively.

You mean that they make the UI look and work the way I want? Not sure how that gives me an advantage.

Here are the addons I use:

AdvancedFilters: This just lets me search my inventory for specific item types.

BankManager: I use this to manage my mules so I don't have to search through my bank for an hour distributing items.

BorrowerAndLender: Because that Daggerfall banker needs duct tape on her mouth.

DragonLoot: Because I like to know what I looted without having to open my pack after every fight.

FastReport: Because bots everywhere.

FoundryTacticalCombat: Because I like to see floating numbers and the default status bars are crap.

ItemSaver: Because I don't want to accidentally destroy/vendor an item I'm saving for research.

Lorebooks/Skyshards/TreasureMaps: Because I'm not paying a subscription for a treasure hunt game.

MultiCraft: Because I don't want to hit "R" 500 times when I'm crafting potions.

CraftResearchTimer: Because I don;t want to set alarms on my phone telling me it's time to log in and start a research.

None of these, or any addon for that matter give me an advantage over a player that doesn't use them. Addons take functionality that is already available and puts it where I want it.

ckf12b14_ESO

Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.

Jeremy wrote: »

ckf12b14_ESO wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

ckf12b14_ESO wrote: »

Wait, people actually want to get rid of add-ons because they think it's cheating? Are you insane or just mentally impaired?

If an add-on is blatantly cheating, it's banned. You think if add-ons in general were banned, cheating programs would just go away? That's the thing with cheaters; /they don't follow the rules/. They'll just cheat around the rules anyways. In the meantime, legitimate players get to suffer from bad UI because people wanted add-ons banned "4 da cheatz".

They offer advantages.

Rather you want to call it cheating or not is debatable.

Of course they do. But are these advantages putting anyone directly ahead of anyone else? No, they aren't. All add-ons offer are quality of life advantages, there's no "wow i get bonus stats from this add-on!!".

In terms of stat increases no, they don't put players ahead of others. In terms of being able to navigate the interface or use the game's systems more effectively, they do.

And that's an issue why?
Everyone is in agreement that the interface in ESO is terribad. So why are you trying to punish people or call them cheaters for taking it upon themselves to fix that? It takes ZOS years to fix bugs, let alone UI overhauls, I'm certainly not waiting around for them to fix it.

moonsugar66

Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.

Jeremy wrote: »

ckf12b14_ESO wrote: »

In terms of stat increases no, they don't put players ahead of others. In terms of being able to navigate the interface or use the game's systems more effectively, they do.

Sorry, but I fail to see how this is a bad thing. This is like arguing for or against adding mustard to a ham sandwich instead of serving it plain. It's pointless. Right now, that mustard is no real threat to the quality of the meal. You like your sammich plain, eat it plain! Don't go begrudging my desire for a more flavorful experience.

zeuseason

Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.

This argument is so old and all the naysayers are religious nuts stuck in a closet all their lives. No pun intended.

robacooperb16_ESO

Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.

Yes... but cosmetic/interface ones. Not a fan of those that are basically cheats (nor those who use them).

kasain

No. They give players too many advantages/disadvantages.

For every player that uses a third party bot and complains about a bot they have zero right. If all third party programs were illegal to use, bots would be severely less. So don't complain about bots.

Now for those of you who don't use any third party software, you have every right to complain about bots.

A classic example of this could be ffxi. They for like eight years on PC had full screen mode only. So people used a program called windower what made the game in a windowed state. Eventually it added many more features. But in doing so you could be banned if you used it. Many years later the company made its' own windowed option version and third party programs and bots dropped

I rather ESO make the best third party programs standard in game then having to install them. You never know what viruses they can have when updated, or spy software. But you can hold ESO accountable if the virus is caused by their software.

Jeremy

No. They give players too many advantages/disadvantages.

ckf12b14_ESO wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

ckf12b14_ESO wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

ckf12b14_ESO wrote: »

Wait, people actually want to get rid of add-ons because they think it's cheating? Are you insane or just mentally impaired?

If an add-on is blatantly cheating, it's banned. You think if add-ons in general were banned, cheating programs would just go away? That's the thing with cheaters; /they don't follow the rules/. They'll just cheat around the rules anyways. In the meantime, legitimate players get to suffer from bad UI because people wanted add-ons banned "4 da cheatz".

They offer advantages.

Rather you want to call it cheating or not is debatable.

Of course they do. But are these advantages putting anyone directly ahead of anyone else? No, they aren't. All add-ons offer are quality of life advantages, there's no "wow i get bonus stats from this add-on!!".

In terms of stat increases no, they don't put players ahead of others. In terms of being able to navigate the interface or use the game's systems more effectively, they do.

And that's an issue why?
Everyone is in agreement that the interface in ESO is terribad. So why are you trying to punish people or call them cheaters for taking it upon themselves to fix that? It takes ZOS years to fix bugs, let alone UI overhauls, I'm certainly not waiting around for them to fix it.

I'm not trying to punish you. And I never called you a cheater. In fact I said cheating was a bad word to describe it.

I think you are getting my posts confused with someone else's.

ckf12b14_ESO

Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.

kasain wrote: »

For every player that uses a third party bot and complains about a bot they have zero right. If all third party programs were illegal to use, bots would be severely less. So don't complain about bots.

Now for those of you who don't use any third party software, you have every right to complain about bots.

A classic example of this could be ffxi. They for like eight years on PC had full screen mode only. So people used a program called windower what made the game in a windowed state. Eventually it added many more features. But in doing so you could be banned if you used it. Many years later the company made its' own windowed option version and third party programs and bots dropped

I rather ESO make the best third party programs standard in game then having to install them. You never know what viruses they can have when updated, or spy software. But you can hold ESO accountable if the virus is caused by their software.

You really think add-ons and botting programs are one in the same? Really?
You really think not allowing add-ons would suddenly fix botters? Really? Have you played /any/ other MMOs? Most don't allow add-ons. Are they bot free?
Answer: No.

See, here's the thing. Cheaters don't play by the rules. Banning add-ons because you think it's "cheating" won't stop actual cheaters. Because hey, they're cheating, why do they care what's banned!
What it would do, however, is hurt legitimate players who just want a decent UI and quality of life changes.

Drasn

Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.

Jeremy wrote: »

I realize I may be in the minority on this. But I'm not going to change my mind. I don't want this game turning into who ever has the best addons wins as I have seen in other games I've played.

I'm going to assume you are referring to addons such as "recount", "healbot", "deadly boss mods" and "decursive" and others like them from WoW. The thing about those addons is they actually allowed mediocre players to be able to raid with the good players. See we already knew when someone was a bad player, it's not hard to tell, those players didn't get raid invites before those addons.

You don't have to worry about that in this game because the API doesn't even allow me to properly keep track of the buffs/debuffs on myself much less the ones on you. The API doesn't allow me to know what spell I just got hit with much less what you are casting. The API also doesn't tell me whether a player is bad or not, but I can tell.

Arreyanne

Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.

The only time I think Addons get out of whack with the game is like, "THE GAME CANNOT BE NAMED"

and you see this in chat
To be in our guild and/or raid you need addons

xys, acd, tyu, and pow

Talmet

Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.

Jeremy wrote: »

PhoenixWing wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

PhoenixWing wrote: »

P.S. @ZeroInspiration‌ I think that add-on don't work anymore since the patch that stop allowing you to teleport to yourself.

link:
http://www.esoui.com/downloads/info224-Jumper.html

But for awhile at least it did work.

So it enabled cheating. That is proof enough right there that these add-ons can be used to cheat. Because it has already happened.

I agree with you that add-ons should not be allowed to perform features that do not exist.

However, in this case (Jumper add-on), it is the fault on Zenimax part, not the add-ons' that let this feature slipped.
Also, the fact that they fixed it confirms that they mistakenly made it available, so please do not use these bugs as an argument.

You can't just ignore that it happened for the sake of debate.

The fact remains there has already been at least one add-on that allowed players to cheat. Rather it was Zenimax's fault or not is irrelevant to my argument.

It has already happened and will happen again. It's a legitimate concern and shouldn't be mocked or discounted (I'm not saying you did).

Jumper did not provide a feature that someone who didn't have jumper did not have.

Prior to the fix, any player (both those with & without jumper), could open up their guild screen & teleport to themselves.

Jumper's only function was to save you like...10 seconds of time, so that instead of having to press G & then find your name, right click & click "teleport to player", you could just use the addon to do those things. (note, you can still do it to any other player in a guild you are a member of, the fix was that you can't go to yourself anymore.) (note, I never used jumper, as I rarely want to teleport to the closest wayshrine...instead I just teleport to another guild member in the same zone, which usually puts me back in a city with merchants/crafting/etc).

There was nothing that the addon did, that could not be easily done by someone who did not have the addon.

So...no, there has not been an instance of an addon that provided a feature that did not exist in the game for ESO yet.

As to the whole..."ESO dev's are lazy" nonsense.....no, they just have other priorities.

Do I want a search function for the guild store? Yes.
Do I want ZOS to take a programmer off of fixing quest breaking bugs, and have them work on the guild store UI instead? No.

The problem here is, that many of you seem to believe that ZOS has infinite resources & personnel. They don't...they have to prioritize where to spend their time.

UI fixes are important, so are breaking botting programs, fixing bugs, preparing to move the EU servers actually to EU, finishing content that was promised (i.e. dark brotherhood, crime system, thieves guild, housing, etc), and many many other things. ZOS does not have the money or the personnel to have hundreds of programmers working on everything at once (no company does), so they have to prioritize.

You may disagree with their priorities, but claiming that a company is lazy because they put something you care about lower on the priority list than you would prefer is rather self-centered.

Jeremy

No. They give players too many advantages/disadvantages.

thomas.k.grayb14_ESO wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

They may not be advantageous on a competitive level. But they are still advantages and offer you improved tools that increase your ability to navigate the game's systems more effectively.

You mean that they make the UI look and work the way I want? Not sure how that gives me an advantage.

Here are the addons I use:

AdvancedFilters: This just lets me search my inventory for specific item types.

BankManager: I use this to manage my mules so I don't have to search through my bank for an hour distributing items.

BorrowerAndLender: Because that Daggerfall banker needs duct tape on her mouth.

DragonLoot: Because I like to know what I looted without having to open my pack after every fight.

FastReport: Because bots everywhere.

FoundryTacticalCombat: Because I like to see floating numbers and the default status bars are crap.

ItemSaver: Because I don't want to accidentally destroy/vendor an item I'm saving for research.

Lorebooks/Skyshards/TreasureMaps: Because I'm not paying a subscription for a treasure hunt game.

MultiCraft: Because I don't want to hit "R" 500 times when I'm crafting potions.

CraftResearchTimer: Because I don;t want to set alarms on my phone telling me it's time to log in and start a research.

None of these, or any addon for that matter give me an advantage over a player that doesn't use them. Addons take functionality that is already available and puts it where I want it.

I would consider addons that improve functionality advantageous Thomas. If they were of no use why would you even want them to being with? So I think we may be getting bogged down in the semantics about what the word advantage means.

Lalai

Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.

I absolutely love addons. They allow me to customize the game how I see fit. Yes, there are some things that ZoS should (and hopefully will) add to the game in the future.. such as a search function for the guild store.. but a lot of addons make for great UI enhancements, where lots of people have different preferences. I like my UI minimal, ZoS did a great job of fitting to my tastes.. however I know many people who like stuff constantly up on their screen.

Addons allow both groups to be tailored to as each person can kinda customize their client without gaining any sort of substantial advantage.. and since addons are available to any player, no one really gets an advantage anyway.. there's nothing stopping anyone from downloading the same addon they view as giving an advantage to someone else.

Everyone's views on what's sketch, or cheap, or cheating, are kind of different. Ultimately it's up for ZoS to decide whether something should be allowed or not, and if an addon is breaking some rule, or unsavory, ZoS has the power to change the API and make the addon useless. Keep in mind that just because you don't like something, and it's not how you play, does not make that something cheating. I don't like the idea of an addon that shows all the skyshards on the map, I don't use it myself, I like hunting for them based on clues.. however I'm not gonna label folks that use it as cheaters just because they may not want to spend the time doing so, or don't find the clue hunt enjoyable.

Pyatra

Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.

Yes, as they are now. Limited but still very useful.

AngersRevenge

Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.

While I believe no game should "need" addons. Most MMO have too much other stuff the devs are working on they don't get to the small stuff that really help the game out. Most of the addons should be incorperated into the game already but I would prefer ZOS fix the bugs and leave the UI to the addons people. Plus the addons get updated a lot quicker than most MMOs get updated.

kewl

Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.

Its clear there is overwhelming support for addons. @Jeremy is keeping this thread alive to promote his agenda. Please stop posting and this will all go away.

Dovel

Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.

Yes!

Addons allow us to be creative. Any MMO worth playing allows them. The ones that don't, swtor, quickly lose their community presence.

coreserv

Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.

Blackwidow wrote: »

There should not be a need for addons.

Lazy lazy ZOS.

Also, some addons do blatantly let players cheat.

Would Love an example of a legit add-on that gives a player a advantage or cheat? Please explain without giving name of the add-on.

Without add-ons the quality of "fun" would be drastically hampered, with the incredibly horrid UI and lack of basic MMO mechanics.

Drasn

Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.

Jeremy wrote: »

I would consider addons that improve functionality advantageous Thomas. If they were of no use why would you even want them to being with? So I think we may be getting bogged down in the semantics about what the word advantage means.

ad·van·tage
noun
1.
a condition or circumstance that puts one in a favorable or superior position.

Using addons in this game does not make the person who uses them better than anyone else. All they do is change aesthetics. The functionality they "add" already exists in game, it just moves that functionality to where the user wants it.

Jeremy

No. They give players too many advantages/disadvantages.

Talmet wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

PhoenixWing wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

PhoenixWing wrote: »

P.S. @ZeroInspiration‌ I think that add-on don't work anymore since the patch that stop allowing you to teleport to yourself.

link:
http://www.esoui.com/downloads/info224-Jumper.html

But for awhile at least it did work.

So it enabled cheating. That is proof enough right there that these add-ons can be used to cheat. Because it has already happened.

I agree with you that add-ons should not be allowed to perform features that do not exist.

However, in this case (Jumper add-on), it is the fault on Zenimax part, not the add-ons' that let this feature slipped.
Also, the fact that they fixed it confirms that they mistakenly made it available, so please do not use these bugs as an argument.

You can't just ignore that it happened for the sake of debate.

The fact remains there has already been at least one add-on that allowed players to cheat. Rather it was Zenimax's fault or not is irrelevant to my argument.

It has already happened and will happen again. It's a legitimate concern and shouldn't be mocked or discounted (I'm not saying you did).

Jumper did not provide a feature that someone who didn't have jumper did not have.

Prior to the fix, any player (both those with & without jumper), could open up their guild screen & teleport to themselves.

Jumper's only function was to save you like...10 seconds of time, so that instead of having to press G & then find your name, right click & click "teleport to player", you could just use the addon to do those things. (note, you can still do it to any other player in a guild you are a member of, the fix was that you can't go to yourself anymore.) (note, I never used jumper, as I rarely want to teleport to the closest wayshrine...instead I just teleport to another guild member in the same zone, which usually puts me back in a city with merchants/crafting/etc).

There was nothing that the addon did, that could not be easily done by someone who did not have the addon.

So...no, there has not been an instance of an addon that provided a feature that did not exist in the game for ESO yet.

As to the whole..."ESO dev's are lazy" nonsense.....no, they just have other priorities.

Do I want a search function for the guild store? Yes.
Do I want ZOS to take a programmer off of fixing quest breaking bugs, and have them work on the guild store UI instead? No.

The problem here is, that many of you seem to believe that ZOS has infinite resources & personnel. They don't...they have to prioritize where to spend their time.

UI fixes are important, so are breaking botting programs, fixing bugs, preparing to move the EU servers actually to EU, finishing content that was promised (i.e. dark brotherhood, crime system, thieves guild, housing, etc), and many many other things. ZOS does not have the money or the personnel to have hundreds of programmers working on everything at once (no company does), so they have to prioritize.

You may disagree with their priorities, but claiming that a company is lazy because they put something you care about lower on the priority list than you would prefer is rather self-centered.

I don't ever remember claiming the company is lazy. But I will, at least when it comes to certain things. And I do believe an over-reliance on addons is at least partly to blame in this regard.

The guild store interface for example is sloppy and lazily put together. It's barely usable in fact. And pointing that out doesn't mean I'm self-centered. It just means I can recognize lazy design.

I like this game. But I'm not going to excuse their mistakes simply because they don't have infinite resources and personal like you seem to suggest. Because no company has infinite resources and personal. That's a cop out and be used to justify anything.

Jeremy

No. They give players too many advantages/disadvantages.

thomas.k.grayb14_ESO wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

I realize I may be in the minority on this. But I'm not going to change my mind. I don't want this game turning into who ever has the best addons wins as I have seen in other games I've played.

I'm going to assume you are referring to addons such as "recount", "healbot", "deadly boss mods" and "decursive" and others like them from WoW. The thing about those addons is they actually allowed mediocre players to be able to raid with the good players. See we already knew when someone was a bad player, it's not hard to tell, those players didn't get raid invites before those addons.
.

It was mostly the PvP ones I had issues with.

Jeremy

No. They give players too many advantages/disadvantages.

thomas.k.grayb14_ESO wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

I would consider addons that improve functionality advantageous Thomas. If they were of no use why would you even want them to being with? So I think we may be getting bogged down in the semantics about what the word advantage means.

ad·van·tage
noun
1.
a condition or circumstance that puts one in a favorable or superior position.

Using addons in this game does not make the person who uses them better than anyone else. All they do is change aesthetics. The functionality they "add" already exists in game, it just moves that functionality to where the user wants it.

And the number 2 definition is this:

2. benefit; gain; profit

Obviously these addons give you some benefit else you wouldn't download them to begin with.

And I never said all addons give players advantages over other players in a competitive sense. I remember pointing that out earlier, but maybe you missed it.

Aria

Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.

Players make some of the most brilliant addon's, sadly other less scrupulous players make and use addons that are just blatant cheating and exploiting.

Think they need to regulate which addons are and can be used, to try to limit the exploitation and hacking that is done with some of these programs.

But to remove them all including perfectly legit mods would be silly as no one forces anyone to use them, also nice thing about mods is they are "optional"?

Drasn

Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.

Jeremy wrote: »

It was mostly the PvP ones I had issues with.

Well you aren't going to have to worry about that here. Like I said, the API won't tell me what you are casting, it won't auto interupt, I have no idea what buffs/debuffs are on you(or me for that matter), won't tell me your stamina or mana levels.

So yeah, no PvP advantage, and unless they open the API (which isn't going to happen) there will never be a PvP advantage for having addons.

Ciarán

Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.

kasain wrote: »

For every player that uses a third party bot and complains about a bot they have zero right. If all third party programs were illegal to use, bots would be severely less. So don't complain about bots.

Now for those of you who don't use any third party software, you have every right to complain about bots.

A classic example of this could be ffxi. They for like eight years on PC had full screen mode only. So people used a program called windower what made the game in a windowed state. Eventually it added many more features. But in doing so you could be banned if you used it. Many years later the company made its' own windowed option version and third party programs and bots dropped

I rather ESO make the best third party programs standard in game then having to install them. You never know what viruses they can have when updated, or spy software. But you can hold ESO accountable if the virus is caused by their software.

I played FFXI for years. I remember Windower, and I can tell you, when SE came out with its own windowed option, it did nothing to prevent botting and people from using Windower and its macro scripts. Not while the high notorious monsters were a free-for-all to claim. (Worse game design decision ever. Once a day spawn, 21-24 hours from last death time. Whomever attacked it first "claimed" it for their party, preventing anyone else from attacking it and getting a chance at drops.)

I also do not recall a single instance of someone getting banned in FFXI for using Windower or macro scripts. And damn near everyone using a PC in my linkshell used Windower. Using bots to claim Fafnir/Nidhogg? Sure, people got banned. Not too terribly often, but they did. But for using Windower? No.

Loxy37

Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.

Yes. Wholeheartedly! This isn't the year 2000 yah know. Its not addons that are responsible for the bot issue or people cheating, its people who's to blame it prolly needs a little tweaking but I would hate to be without the node and skyshard addons, that's all I use. The node one is handy and a quality of life thing and the skyshard add on allows me to ditch my pen and paper as it was far quicker to write down the ones I had instead of using the gawd awful interface that doesn't memorise squat!

Drasn

Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.

Jeremy wrote: »

thomas.k.grayb14_ESO wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

I would consider addons that improve functionality advantageous Thomas. If they were of no use why would you even want them to being with? So I think we may be getting bogged down in the semantics about what the word advantage means.

ad·van·tage
noun
1.
a condition or circumstance that puts one in a favorable or superior position.

Using addons in this game does not make the person who uses them better than anyone else. All they do is change aesthetics. The functionality they "add" already exists in game, it just moves that functionality to where the user wants it.

And the number 2 definition is this:

2. benefit; gain; profit

Obviously these addons give you some benefit else you wouldn't download them to begin with.

And I never said all addons give players advantages over other players in a competitive sense. I remember pointing that out earlier, but maybe you missed it.

Okay, I'll bite.

-the opportunity to gain something; benefit or profit.
Not gaining anything from addons that's not available to those without.

-a favorable or desirable circumstance or feature; a benefit.
This is a beauty is in the eye of the beholder definition. The idea of a desirable
feature is going to vary from person to person.

-a player's score in a game when they have won the first point after deuce (and will win the game if they win the next point).
I think we can both agree that this does not apply.

-put in a favorable or more favorable position.
Again, addons don't make someone better than non users.

----EDIT----
You changed what you originally wrote and it quoted the new the new thing. You asked me to list the other definitions originally.
----END EDIT----

Shillen

Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.

81% to 18%. This thread is the perfect example of the vocal minority. 11 pages of argument when the overwhelming majority are in favor of keeping it the way it is.