Should add-ons be allowed?

Jeremy

No. They give players too many advantages/disadvantages.

Talmet wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Talmet wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

You admit these addons add features that are not currently in the game. Which is what I said.

I also disagree with you that these addons provide features that can be easily provided by other means. Easily is a subjective term to be sure. Especially in this case. Because I would find nothing easy about having to draw my own maps and mark the nodes myself with a pencil. I also find nothing easy about having to search through page after page in nearly a half dozen guild stores trying to find something I would like to buy.

So I agree with you that these addons provide the user with features that would not otherwise exists on the game. I disagree with you that they offer only mild conveniences that are easy to do manually. Because in my opinion, they are not. Which is precisely why these addons are popular to begin with.

Easily is a subjective term...and I said nothing about drawing your own map, I said take a screenshot of the map & print it. And looking through a list to find something is difficult to you? Time consuming sure...but difficult?

Addons are either completely cosmetic (i.e. moving health bars around the screen). Or, they save time (i.e. guild store search, not having to print out the map & mark it with a pen, etc). Cosmetic addons provide nothing other than cater to person preference. I suppose if you really tried you could make an arguement against the addons that save time, claiming that by saving time they provide some advantage by allowing the player to spend that time somewhere else...but a person with a very good memory could do the same thing, is having a good memory something that is unfair?

I mean, lets assume that ZOS comes out and decides that addons can't be used anymore, they close API, institute some warden program that identifies people who use addons & ban them. If someone can just remember where node locations are, so they never used the harvestmap addon...should they be banned from playing because of the advantage they have as well? Didn't the addon just level the playing field between the person with a really good memory, and the person without...

Jeremy wrote: »

I am sure it would be many hours of programming and testing. But so what. That is their job. If spending a lot of time programming is a problem for them - then they are in the wrong occupation. So that's not an excuse I'm inclined to be sympathetic to.

I completely agree, it is their job to program for many hours...the point is that right now, they ARE programming already. It isn't like they show up to work & sit around watching netflix all day and then go home. They are working on other things, implying that they are doing nothing right now & that they are using an excuse to get out of working at all, is pretty insulting.

Jeremy wrote: »

Now as far as your question: I would prefer that they make giving us an updated and more efficient guild store interface a top priority. This game's economy is bad enough. It doesn't need a sloppy, inefficent and bug-ridden interface to compound it even further.

So fixing the UI should be a top priority?

Ok, then I assume you'd be completely fine if for the next few weeks there were no bug fixes, no quest bug fixes, skills weren't fixed, classes weren't balanced, server stability wasn't fixed, botting programs weren't analysed & hopefully broken, etc? Those are all lower priority than fixing the guild store UI, right? Somehow, I think you'd be in the very very small minority on that...

Oh, and as for the economy...the economy is less than 2 months old, it's going to take awhile for the economy to settle. The claim that the economy sucks, or that there is no economy, is a claim that is made in every new MMO & after every expansion of every MMO. Give the player base time so that a good portion of the people reach max lvl, and find what is & what is not useful...the economy will settle down & be fine.

I think I've lost track what we are debating here.

I never said addons didn't save time. I said they add features that are not currently in the game. Which you agreed with.

Where we disagreed is you think it's easy to track crafting nodes manually or search the guild store page by page. I don't.

I think fixing the Guild Store interface should be a top priority. You don't. We should probably just agree to disagree about this. Because I think you're exaggerating when you act as if they could not fix anything else if they took the time to improve it.

And we disagree about this game's economy. But that belongs in another thread so in the interest of staying on topic I'll refrain from getting into that.

If something is the top priority, then you have most/all of your people working on it. If they take most/all of their programmers and put them on fixing the guild store, then they won't have as many (or any) programmers working on fixing other things (which means those other things don't get fixed).

If you actually just meant that fixing the guild store should be higher on the priority list & have one or two people working on it. Ok, then what were those programmers working on before?

i.e. Should they be taking programmers who are currently working on fixing quest bugs & have them instead work on the guild store? If so, quest bugs won't get fixed as fast.

As for the economy, I agree it isn't part of this topic...but you brought it up.

Yeah I brought it up. But it was to give a reason why I thought the guild store interface should be given top priority. I wasn't trying to start a separate debate about it in this thread. So that's why I said I would refrain from getting into it.

And like I said in my last post, I think you are exaggerating the amount of resources it would take to fix the guild store interface.

You act as if it would consume their whole operation and they couldn't maintain the game's vital areas as a result. And I just don't agree considering their budget and staff. Not to mention they found the time and resources to release a new adventure zone since the game was released yet still somehow managed to address bugs, bots etc. in the game. So I don't find your argument very persuasive.

I don't believe it's a question of available programmers. It's just a question of priorities. They have more than enough resources to fix the guild store interface if they really wanted to. It's just not very high up on their to do list at the moment. And I think it should be.

So to sum it up: there is just no good excuse for the current state of the guild store UI in my opinion. And players should not have to rely on addons for one.

Talmet

Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.

Jeremy wrote: »

Talmet wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Talmet wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

You admit these addons add features that are not currently in the game. Which is what I said.

I also disagree with you that these addons provide features that can be easily provided by other means. Easily is a subjective term to be sure. Especially in this case. Because I would find nothing easy about having to draw my own maps and mark the nodes myself with a pencil. I also find nothing easy about having to search through page after page in nearly a half dozen guild stores trying to find something I would like to buy.

So I agree with you that these addons provide the user with features that would not otherwise exists on the game. I disagree with you that they offer only mild conveniences that are easy to do manually. Because in my opinion, they are not. Which is precisely why these addons are popular to begin with.

Easily is a subjective term...and I said nothing about drawing your own map, I said take a screenshot of the map & print it. And looking through a list to find something is difficult to you? Time consuming sure...but difficult?

Addons are either completely cosmetic (i.e. moving health bars around the screen). Or, they save time (i.e. guild store search, not having to print out the map & mark it with a pen, etc). Cosmetic addons provide nothing other than cater to person preference. I suppose if you really tried you could make an arguement against the addons that save time, claiming that by saving time they provide some advantage by allowing the player to spend that time somewhere else...but a person with a very good memory could do the same thing, is having a good memory something that is unfair?

I mean, lets assume that ZOS comes out and decides that addons can't be used anymore, they close API, institute some warden program that identifies people who use addons & ban them. If someone can just remember where node locations are, so they never used the harvestmap addon...should they be banned from playing because of the advantage they have as well? Didn't the addon just level the playing field between the person with a really good memory, and the person without...

Jeremy wrote: »

I am sure it would be many hours of programming and testing. But so what. That is their job. If spending a lot of time programming is a problem for them - then they are in the wrong occupation. So that's not an excuse I'm inclined to be sympathetic to.

I completely agree, it is their job to program for many hours...the point is that right now, they ARE programming already. It isn't like they show up to work & sit around watching netflix all day and then go home. They are working on other things, implying that they are doing nothing right now & that they are using an excuse to get out of working at all, is pretty insulting.

Jeremy wrote: »

Now as far as your question: I would prefer that they make giving us an updated and more efficient guild store interface a top priority. This game's economy is bad enough. It doesn't need a sloppy, inefficent and bug-ridden interface to compound it even further.

So fixing the UI should be a top priority?

Ok, then I assume you'd be completely fine if for the next few weeks there were no bug fixes, no quest bug fixes, skills weren't fixed, classes weren't balanced, server stability wasn't fixed, botting programs weren't analysed & hopefully broken, etc? Those are all lower priority than fixing the guild store UI, right? Somehow, I think you'd be in the very very small minority on that...

Oh, and as for the economy...the economy is less than 2 months old, it's going to take awhile for the economy to settle. The claim that the economy sucks, or that there is no economy, is a claim that is made in every new MMO & after every expansion of every MMO. Give the player base time so that a good portion of the people reach max lvl, and find what is & what is not useful...the economy will settle down & be fine.

I think I've lost track what we are debating here.

I never said addons didn't save time. I said they add features that are not currently in the game. Which you agreed with.

Where we disagreed is you think it's easy to track crafting nodes manually or search the guild store page by page. I don't.

I think fixing the Guild Store interface should be a top priority. You don't. We should probably just agree to disagree about this. Because I think you're exaggerating when you act as if they could not fix anything else if they took the time to improve it.

And we disagree about this game's economy. But that belongs in another thread so in the interest of staying on topic I'll refrain from getting into that.

If something is the top priority, then you have most/all of your people working on it. If they take most/all of their programmers and put them on fixing the guild store, then they won't have as many (or any) programmers working on fixing other things (which means those other things don't get fixed).

If you actually just meant that fixing the guild store should be higher on the priority list & have one or two people working on it. Ok, then what were those programmers working on before?

i.e. Should they be taking programmers who are currently working on fixing quest bugs & have them instead work on the guild store? If so, quest bugs won't get fixed as fast.

As for the economy, I agree it isn't part of this topic...but you brought it up.

Yeah I brought it up. But it was to give a reason why I thought the guild store interface should be given top priority. I wasn't trying to start a separate debate about it in this thread. So that's why I said I would refrain from getting into it.

And like I said in my last post, I think you are exaggerating the amount of resources it would take to fix the guild store interface.

You act as if it would consume their whole operation and they couldn't maintain the game's vital areas as a result. And I just don't agree considering their budget and staff. Not to mention they found the time and resources to release a new adventure zone since the game was released yet still somehow managed to address bugs, bots etc. in the game. So I don't find your argument very persuasive.

I don't believe it's a question of available programmers. It's just a question of priorities. They have more than enough resources to fix the guild store interface if they really wanted to. It's just not very high up on their to do list at the moment. And I think it should be.

So to sum it up: there is just no good excuse for the current state of the guild store UI in my opinion. And players should not have to rely on addons for one.

You really just don't get it...

When you grow up, and maybe get a job where you have to oversee multiple people, then maybe you'll get it. But, until that happens this conversation is pointless, as you seem to refuse to believe how things work in the real world.

Jeremy

No. They give players too many advantages/disadvantages.

Talmet wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Talmet wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Talmet wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

You admit these addons add features that are not currently in the game. Which is what I said.

I also disagree with you that these addons provide features that can be easily provided by other means. Easily is a subjective term to be sure. Especially in this case. Because I would find nothing easy about having to draw my own maps and mark the nodes myself with a pencil. I also find nothing easy about having to search through page after page in nearly a half dozen guild stores trying to find something I would like to buy.

So I agree with you that these addons provide the user with features that would not otherwise exists on the game. I disagree with you that they offer only mild conveniences that are easy to do manually. Because in my opinion, they are not. Which is precisely why these addons are popular to begin with.

Easily is a subjective term...and I said nothing about drawing your own map, I said take a screenshot of the map & print it. And looking through a list to find something is difficult to you? Time consuming sure...but difficult?

Addons are either completely cosmetic (i.e. moving health bars around the screen). Or, they save time (i.e. guild store search, not having to print out the map & mark it with a pen, etc). Cosmetic addons provide nothing other than cater to person preference. I suppose if you really tried you could make an arguement against the addons that save time, claiming that by saving time they provide some advantage by allowing the player to spend that time somewhere else...but a person with a very good memory could do the same thing, is having a good memory something that is unfair?

I mean, lets assume that ZOS comes out and decides that addons can't be used anymore, they close API, institute some warden program that identifies people who use addons & ban them. If someone can just remember where node locations are, so they never used the harvestmap addon...should they be banned from playing because of the advantage they have as well? Didn't the addon just level the playing field between the person with a really good memory, and the person without...

Jeremy wrote: »

I am sure it would be many hours of programming and testing. But so what. That is their job. If spending a lot of time programming is a problem for them - then they are in the wrong occupation. So that's not an excuse I'm inclined to be sympathetic to.

I completely agree, it is their job to program for many hours...the point is that right now, they ARE programming already. It isn't like they show up to work & sit around watching netflix all day and then go home. They are working on other things, implying that they are doing nothing right now & that they are using an excuse to get out of working at all, is pretty insulting.

Jeremy wrote: »

Now as far as your question: I would prefer that they make giving us an updated and more efficient guild store interface a top priority. This game's economy is bad enough. It doesn't need a sloppy, inefficent and bug-ridden interface to compound it even further.

So fixing the UI should be a top priority?

Ok, then I assume you'd be completely fine if for the next few weeks there were no bug fixes, no quest bug fixes, skills weren't fixed, classes weren't balanced, server stability wasn't fixed, botting programs weren't analysed & hopefully broken, etc? Those are all lower priority than fixing the guild store UI, right? Somehow, I think you'd be in the very very small minority on that...

Oh, and as for the economy...the economy is less than 2 months old, it's going to take awhile for the economy to settle. The claim that the economy sucks, or that there is no economy, is a claim that is made in every new MMO & after every expansion of every MMO. Give the player base time so that a good portion of the people reach max lvl, and find what is & what is not useful...the economy will settle down & be fine.

I think I've lost track what we are debating here.

I never said addons didn't save time. I said they add features that are not currently in the game. Which you agreed with.

Where we disagreed is you think it's easy to track crafting nodes manually or search the guild store page by page. I don't.

I think fixing the Guild Store interface should be a top priority. You don't. We should probably just agree to disagree about this. Because I think you're exaggerating when you act as if they could not fix anything else if they took the time to improve it.

And we disagree about this game's economy. But that belongs in another thread so in the interest of staying on topic I'll refrain from getting into that.

If something is the top priority, then you have most/all of your people working on it. If they take most/all of their programmers and put them on fixing the guild store, then they won't have as many (or any) programmers working on fixing other things (which means those other things don't get fixed).

If you actually just meant that fixing the guild store should be higher on the priority list & have one or two people working on it. Ok, then what were those programmers working on before?

i.e. Should they be taking programmers who are currently working on fixing quest bugs & have them instead work on the guild store? If so, quest bugs won't get fixed as fast.

As for the economy, I agree it isn't part of this topic...but you brought it up.

Yeah I brought it up. But it was to give a reason why I thought the guild store interface should be given top priority. I wasn't trying to start a separate debate about it in this thread. So that's why I said I would refrain from getting into it.

And like I said in my last post, I think you are exaggerating the amount of resources it would take to fix the guild store interface.

You act as if it would consume their whole operation and they couldn't maintain the game's vital areas as a result. And I just don't agree considering their budget and staff. Not to mention they found the time and resources to release a new adventure zone since the game was released yet still somehow managed to address bugs, bots etc. in the game. So I don't find your argument very persuasive.

I don't believe it's a question of available programmers. It's just a question of priorities. They have more than enough resources to fix the guild store interface if they really wanted to. It's just not very high up on their to do list at the moment. And I think it should be.

So to sum it up: there is just no good excuse for the current state of the guild store UI in my opinion. And players should not have to rely on addons for one.

You really just don't get it...

When you grow up, and maybe get a job where you have to oversee multiple people, then maybe you'll get it. But, until that happens this conversation is pointless, as you seem to refuse to believe how things work in the real world.

Just some advice: but if you want to convince people you are more mature than the person you are debating with, hurling childish ad hominem attacks instead of addressing the actual argument is a very poor way to go about doing that.

But I do agree with you about one thing though. And that is this conversation is pointless.

Efficient search functions for the store interface is common place in today's games. They are not a fantasy and very much exist in the real world. And to suggest Zenimax - a company that has literally millions of dollars invested into it - cannot find the resources to provide such a basic feature is unrealistic. Especially considering they are already releasing new zones only a month after release. So it's obvious they have the available resources to work on things other than fixing bugs and dealing with bots as you claimed.

Now I like this game. A lot. But that doesn't mean I'm going to defend it's flaws or entertain illogical excuses as to why these flaws aren't being fixed. That's not going to help make this game better. Nor is getting cranky and telling people they need to grow up because they don't agree with your reasoning.

Talmet

Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.

Jeremy wrote: »

Efficient search functions for the store interface is common place in today's games. They are not a fantasy and very much exist in the real world. And to suggest Zenimax - a company that has literally millions of dollars invested into it - cannot find the resources to provide such a basic feature is unrealistic. Especially considering they are already releasing new zones only a month after release. So it's obvious they have the available resources to work on things other than fixing bugs and dealing with bots as you claimed.

Hey, you actually almost answered my question...or at least I think I can figure out what your answer is.

You believe that ZOS should take some of the programmers who are working on new content & redirect them to work on fixing the UI.

That wasn't hard now was it? I asked you what you think should be slowed down so that UI fixes can get moved up like 4 pages ago....and now you finally answered me.

I don't agree with you though, new content is what keeps people playing. The hardcore rushing people wouldn't keep playing without new content for them, and adding craglorn will keep them playing & paying for awhile. Getting the thieves guild & dark brotherhood content done will keep the solo pve crowd happy for awhile....idk what the plan is for the pvpers, but they'll get tired if some new stuff doesn't come into pvp as well.

Jeremy

No. They give players too many advantages/disadvantages.

Talmet wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Efficient search functions for the store interface is common place in today's games. They are not a fantasy and very much exist in the real world. And to suggest Zenimax - a company that has literally millions of dollars invested into it - cannot find the resources to provide such a basic feature is unrealistic. Especially considering they are already releasing new zones only a month after release. So it's obvious they have the available resources to work on things other than fixing bugs and dealing with bots as you claimed.

Hey, you actually almost answered my question...or at least I think I can figure out what your answer is.

You believe that ZOS should take some of the programmers who are working on new content & redirect them to work on fixing the UI.

That wasn't hard now was it? I asked you what you think should be slowed down so that UI fixes can get moved up like 4 pages ago....and now you finally answered me.

I don't agree with you though, new content is what keeps people playing. The hardcore rushing people wouldn't keep playing without new content for them, and adding craglorn will keep them playing & paying for awhile. Getting the thieves guild & dark brotherhood content done will keep the solo pve crowd happy for awhile....idk what the plan is for the pvpers, but they'll get tired if some new stuff doesn't come into pvp as well.

No that wasn't what I was saying.

I believe they have the resources to give us an effective guild store search function while continuing to work on new content. I was just using the addition of the new zone to disprove your earlier claim that improving the guild UI would lead to the neglect of fixing bugs and addressing bots etc. Since obviously they have the resources to work on more than one thing at a time.

Talmet

Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.

Jeremy wrote: »

Talmet wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Efficient search functions for the store interface is common place in today's games. They are not a fantasy and very much exist in the real world. And to suggest Zenimax - a company that has literally millions of dollars invested into it - cannot find the resources to provide such a basic feature is unrealistic. Especially considering they are already releasing new zones only a month after release. So it's obvious they have the available resources to work on things other than fixing bugs and dealing with bots as you claimed.

Hey, you actually almost answered my question...or at least I think I can figure out what your answer is.

You believe that ZOS should take some of the programmers who are working on new content & redirect them to work on fixing the UI.

That wasn't hard now was it? I asked you what you think should be slowed down so that UI fixes can get moved up like 4 pages ago....and now you finally answered me.

I don't agree with you though, new content is what keeps people playing. The hardcore rushing people wouldn't keep playing without new content for them, and adding craglorn will keep them playing & paying for awhile. Getting the thieves guild & dark brotherhood content done will keep the solo pve crowd happy for awhile....idk what the plan is for the pvpers, but they'll get tired if some new stuff doesn't come into pvp as well.

No that wasn't what I was saying.

I believe they have the resources to give us an effective guild store search function while continuing to work on new content. I was just using the addition of the new zone to disprove your earlier claim that improving the guild UI would lead to the neglect of fixing bugs and addressing bots etc. Since obviously they have the resources to work on more than one thing at a time.

Ah, so you're back to the idea that ZOS has programmers currently on staff who are doing nothing? Or are you back to the idea that they have enough money just sitting around to hire new programmers?

Of course they are working on more than one thing at a time. Here, I'll explain this with some example numbers.

lets say that ZOS has 100 programmers. All 100 programmers are not working on the same thing, they are broken up into teams & each team does different things.

Lets say that they have a teams of:
20 programmers working on breaking bots
20 programmers working on fixing quest bugs
20 programmers working on server stability issues (lag, disconnects, etc)
20 programmers working on account/login issues (i.e. the error 301 issue).
15 programmers working on new content
5 programmers working on UI fixes (they did redo some UI things in this latest patch).

You want UI fixes to be done quicker, which means they need more programmers in the UI fixing team. ZOS isn't going to hire new programmers (it's a month or so after release, ZOS is still probably trying to recoup production costs...they aren't going to increase labor costs till that's done.)

So, to make UI fixes get done faster, some programmers need to be moved around. If you take say 10 programmers off of new content & put them into the UI fixing team, then UI fixes will come faster. BUT, while new content will still be worked on, it will come slower than it would have if the programmers weren't moved.

If you can explain, from a business standpoint, why UI fixes should be higher on the priority than new content (or some other thing that they are working on), then do so. ZOS is more likely to listen to that than just saying "they have the resources to work on more than one thing, so they should fix this thing that I care about."

Jeremy

No. They give players too many advantages/disadvantages.

Talmet wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Talmet wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Efficient search functions for the store interface is common place in today's games. They are not a fantasy and very much exist in the real world. And to suggest Zenimax - a company that has literally millions of dollars invested into it - cannot find the resources to provide such a basic feature is unrealistic. Especially considering they are already releasing new zones only a month after release. So it's obvious they have the available resources to work on things other than fixing bugs and dealing with bots as you claimed.

Hey, you actually almost answered my question...or at least I think I can figure out what your answer is.

You believe that ZOS should take some of the programmers who are working on new content & redirect them to work on fixing the UI.

That wasn't hard now was it? I asked you what you think should be slowed down so that UI fixes can get moved up like 4 pages ago....and now you finally answered me.

I don't agree with you though, new content is what keeps people playing. The hardcore rushing people wouldn't keep playing without new content for them, and adding craglorn will keep them playing & paying for awhile. Getting the thieves guild & dark brotherhood content done will keep the solo pve crowd happy for awhile....idk what the plan is for the pvpers, but they'll get tired if some new stuff doesn't come into pvp as well.

No that wasn't what I was saying.

I believe they have the resources to give us an effective guild store search function while continuing to work on new content. I was just using the addition of the new zone to disprove your earlier claim that improving the guild UI would lead to the neglect of fixing bugs and addressing bots etc. Since obviously they have the resources to work on more than one thing at a time.

Ah, so you're back to the idea that ZOS has programmers currently on staff who are doing nothing? Or are you back to the idea that they have enough money just sitting around to hire new programmers?

Of course they are working on more than one thing at a time. Here, I'll explain this with some example numbers.

lets say that ZOS has 100 programmers. All 100 programmers are not working on the same thing, they are broken up into teams & each team does different things.

Lets say that they have a teams of:
20 programmers working on breaking bots
20 programmers working on fixing quest bugs
20 programmers working on server stability issues (lag, disconnects, etc)
20 programmers working on account/login issues (i.e. the error 301 issue).
15 programmers working on new content
5 programmers working on UI fixes (they did redo some UI things in this latest patch).

You want UI fixes to be done quicker, which means they need more programmers in the UI fixing team. ZOS isn't going to hire new programmers (it's a month or so after release, ZOS is still probably trying to recoup production costs...they aren't going to increase labor costs till that's done.)

So, to make UI fixes get done faster, some programmers need to be moved around. If you take say 10 programmers off of new content & put them into the UI fixing team, then UI fixes will come faster. BUT, while new content will still be worked on, it will come slower than it would have if the programmers weren't moved.

If you can explain, from a business standpoint, why UI fixes should be higher on the priority than new content (or some other thing that they are working on), then do so. ZOS is more likely to listen to that than just saying "they have the resources to work on more than one thing, so they should fix this thing that I care about."

What I am saying is I believe they have the resources available to refine the guild store search while still maintaining the game's vital functions. I don't know how I can be any more clear.

I understand that we disagree about this. But rephrasing what I said or creating hypotheticals is not going to change my mind. And it doesn't look like I'm going to change yours. So it's probably best at this point we agree to disagree about this.

As to your last question: I explained why I think a more efficient guild store search should be made a top priority. But I rather not risk derailing this thread any further. So I would ask you to look at my earlier post where I explained why I think this