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Should add-ons be allowed?
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Singular✭✭✭✭Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.Heh. This game would REALLY suck without add-ons. Since the developers are amateurs and really have had no clue as to how to make an effective MMO UI.
Whhhhoooosh, teleport, node steal. Whhhooooosh! Teleport, node steal, fly.War, give me war, give me war.1 -
Drasn✭✭✭✭Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.No!
Information should be hidden! None of us should know how little xp we get from public dungeon mobs. We should never know precisely when our magica/stamina/health drop too low.
Hide that stuff. It's grotesque, like cute, in great shape, female model nudity!! Who wants to look at perfect little breasts?!?
Blach!
I know right, what's with all those bar and random windows that I can open as well. Ruining my immersionz.1 -
this is not a yes/no question. It depends on several factors. If the game came with proper ability ques, such as a glowing effect on lets say the crystal shards insta cast proc or have more reliable effects on the character and or animations that didnt get lost in the mass clstrfk of particles in most situations I would say no.
but, this being said I feel there are way way to many add-ons atm, some just completely defeat the purpose of even playing a game....hi i'm playing this exploration game and downloaded add-ons that show me where all the items and secret locations are....what's the fkn point? lolol, worthless people I tell ya...worthless....0 -
Blackwolfe5✭✭✭Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.Look, every game with addon apis have different restrictions. Sure, addons could evolve into full-blown bots, but ONLY if the api allowed way way waaaay more than what the ESO addon api does (or the addon api in wow which allows for much more but not THAT much) . No developer in their right mind would allow for THAT much access.
Please at least try to find proper information before spreading all this misinformation/lies.Edited by Blackwolfe5 on 22 May 2014 15:471 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No. They give players too many advantages/disadvantages.No!
Information should be hidden! None of us should know how little xp we get from public dungeon mobs. We should never know precisely when our magica/stamina/health drop too low.
Hide that stuff. It's grotesque, like cute, in great shape, female model nudity!! Who wants to look at perfect little breasts?!?
Blach!
No one is saying this kind of information shouldn't be available Singular.
What we are saying is that it should be available on an official basis and supported by Zenimax.Edited by Jeremy on 22 May 2014 15:471 -
stabbykitteh✭✭✭✭Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.
Here is a quick cut and paste from an article in Eso WIki I was reading a few minutes ago.
Addons have been a topic of controversy since the early days of MMORPG’s that has continued to this day. A controversy that Elder Scrolls Online is unlikely to avoid. From simple UI changes to gameplay tips and even full-blown bots, both players and developers have had a love/hate relationship with addons. Some types of addons end up banned while others are integrated into the game by the developers.
That's a just a post by a wiki contributor that sites no specific incidents or evidence.
For anyone else who'd like to read it:
http://eso-wiki.com/news/addons-in-elder-scrolls-online/
Forgive me, not meaning to single you out. I just dislike spurious claims.
Edit: I think something people aren't getting is that even if ZOS disables player made add-ons, third party botting programs like the one sited in the 'article' above will still exist and still be used. Trust me, if I thought disabling add-ons would rid the game of bots I'd be way more amenable to the idea.Edited by stabbykitteh on 22 May 2014 15:543 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No. They give players too many advantages/disadvantages.stabbykitteh wrote: »
Here is a quick cut and paste from an article in Eso WIki I was reading a few minutes ago.
Addons have been a topic of controversy since the early days of MMORPG’s that has continued to this day. A controversy that Elder Scrolls Online is unlikely to avoid. From simple UI changes to gameplay tips and even full-blown bots, both players and developers have had a love/hate relationship with addons. Some types of addons end up banned while others are integrated into the game by the developers.
That's a just a post by a wiki contributor that sites no specific incidents or evidence.
For anyone else who'd like to read it:
http://eso-wiki.com/news/addons-in-elder-scrolls-online/
Forgive me, not meaning to single you out. I just dislike spurious claims.
But I didn't make any spurious claims.
I said I have read articles that would warrant confusion about bots and addons. I didn't say anything about specific incidents or evidence. So the only one making spurious claims here is yourself, by putting words into my mouth ^^
You asked me to show you an article that could cause confusion. And I did.
The possibility of cheating is way down on my list as to why I oppose addons. I think it's a legitimate concern - though not one of my main reasons. And I've made that pretty clear in my earlier postings.
But that being said, there are plenty of articles out there that suggest a link between bots/cheats and addons. Just go google some and read them for yourself if you like since my cut and pastes don't seem to be good enough.
So as I said, if there is confusion about this. It's warranted.Edited by Jeremy on 22 May 2014 16:201 -
JessieColt✭✭✭✭Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.JessieColtub17_ESO wrote: »david271749 wrote: »Please state why you voted yes or no below.
While it is always better for the game company to include abilities that are found in add-ons, it is nearly impossible in this day and age to implement everything that can be offered via the add-on community.
So if it's always better for the game company to include these features, why are you supporting the delegation of these functions over to the add-on community?
Just because it's impossible to implement everything that seems like a poor reason to simply hand the reigns over to a mishmash of unpredictable and unreliable add-on creators to do what the developers themselves should be working on.
Because the developers cannot be working on everything that the community wants. Plain and simple.
I would rather the developers work on real issues, like addressing bugs, content, and other things, then implementing feel good UI changes that can be done by 3rd party developers (add on creators) that can be downloaded/used on a personal basis, rather than forced on every single user whether they want it or not, which contributes mainly to code bloat.
Not everyone wants a Mini-Map. But in order for Zenimax to add one to the game, they have to create and add the UI code to the game, then they have to add in the ability to move it, re-size it, and hide it, or players will whine and moan and complain that they are stuck with a mini-map on the UI.
Not everyone is a crafter. But in order for Zenimax to add Crafting Timers to the game, they have to create the code for the UI change, then also create a way to hide it so that those players who do not craft, or do not want to see the UI implementation, can remove if from their view.
And many users will still complain because they do not like it, do not want it, do not like how it looks, do not like where it shows up on the UI, do not like/want the information that is displayed on the Mini-Map, or they want MORE information displayed. Etc. Etc. Etc., resulting in MORE code bloat and resources to address the additional complaints made after implementation.
Do you get that? ZeniMax implementing stuff like that means:
* Double (or more) the lines of code for each implementation (If it takes 500 lines of code to add the UI change, it will probably take 500 more lines of code, or even more, to include the ability to move and hide the UI change).
* Resource drain. Taking dev time away from working on bugs, content, etc. in order to implement UI changes that not everyone wants/needs
* QA Testing to ensure that each implementation works with the existing code, in all zones, for all users, even those who do not want/use/need the change
So yes, for things like the above, that can be perfectly handled by 3rd party developers of Add-Ons and UI Mods, there is no reason why they couldn't, and shouldn't, be handled in that manner, instead of demanding that the game developer themselves implement the changes.
ZeniMax said from the very beginning that ESO would be a platform that allows, and even encourages, 3rd Party Developers participation in the game.
In fact, this is the single biggest reason why Skyrim has stayed a relevant game for so long after core development stopped and why people continue to play it 3 years after initial release.
The 3rd Party Developers kept interest in Skyrim up, long after its lifecycle as a game ended.
While the level of modding of ESO could never be the same as Skyrim, simply because you cannot have that level of modding in an MMO, mods contribute to the overall game play, and allow users to tweak the UI to their personal play style and wants.
It isn't necessary to try to force what 5%, 10%, or even 50% of what the player base wants onto the rest of us, in a manner that does not benefit everyone, and in the end, only serves to degrade the core development of the game by forcing resources onto UI changes that aren't necessary since they are available through Mods.3 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No. They give players too many advantages/disadvantages.JessieColtub17_ESO wrote: »JessieColtub17_ESO wrote: »david271749 wrote: »Please state why you voted yes or no below.
While it is always better for the game company to include abilities that are found in add-ons, it is nearly impossible in this day and age to implement everything that can be offered via the add-on community.
So if it's always better for the game company to include these features, why are you supporting the delegation of these functions over to the add-on community?
Just because it's impossible to implement everything that seems like a poor reason to simply hand the reigns over to a mishmash of unpredictable and unreliable add-on creators to do what the developers themselves should be working on.
I would rather the developers work on real issues, like addressing bugs, content, and other things, then implementing feel good UI changes that can be done by 3rd party developers (add on creators) that can be downloaded/used on a personal basis, rather than forced on every single user whether they want it or not, which contributes mainly to code bloat.
Then we would have to disagree.
I believe it's the developers responsibility to present an efficient UI. Features like a useful guild store search option for example should be in the official game. And players should not be expected to browse different web sites trying to find the right addon to perform such basic functions.
I am not opposed to cosmetic UI alterations. But when developers rely on addons to handle advantageous gameplay additions such as improved search functions or a more a detailed map and battle menu I won't support it. Mechanics like these need to be handled on an official basis so all players are on an equal footing.Edited by Jeremy on 22 May 2014 16:310 -
Arreyanne✭✭✭✭Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.I bet everyone is looking forward to Gear Score Addon for this game1 -
Blackwolfe5✭✭✭Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.I agree that things such as a proper guild store search is needed, but I will not wait until such a feature is added.0
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magic_is_might✭✭✭Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.Oh man, people are still on the node thing. If that's your only dog in this fight, then great job ignoring 99% of the other add-ons out there. Kind of sad. Keep clinging desperately to that point.
Again, if being able to see crafting node spawn points gives me a visible advantage over you, you are a crappy player to begin with. If this is a game-breaking "cheat" for you, then you are naive. Especially when I can go to the guild store and buy stacks of that resource already with less effort. Get real.
When an addon actually lets you cheat by letting you fly or noclip, then we can talk. (Hint: it won't happen because the architecture does not support the ability to cheat.) Seeing possible spawn locations for nodes? Laughable.Edited by magic_is_might on 22 May 2014 16:21Sienna Nightsky | Aldmeri Dominion | Nightblade Woodelf1 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No. They give players too many advantages/disadvantages.Blackwolfe5 wrote: »I agree that things such as a proper guild store search is needed, but I will not wait until such a feature is added.
And that's the issue. Instead of adding one themselves they are content to just let you use addons to get it.
There is a reason this game has such a poor UI.
Edited by Jeremy on 22 May 2014 16:240 -
magic_is_might✭✭✭Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.Blackwolfe5 wrote: »I agree that things such as a proper guild store search is needed, but I will not wait until such a feature is added.
And that's the issue. Instead of adding one themselves they are content to just let you use addons to get it.
Because the developers support add-ons. Hence why the added in the ability to make these add-ons possible. You do realize the reason they have such "poor" vanilla UI is because they knew addons would be a thing...Edited by magic_is_might on 22 May 2014 16:23Sienna Nightsky | Aldmeri Dominion | Nightblade Woodelf1 -
LunaRae✭✭✭✭No. They give players too many advantages/disadvantages.Just my two cents - add-ons open to the entire community make for lazy game development (hey the community will fix that, we don't need to improve our guild store search) and open the doors wide for botters. If anything I'd say restrict who can make mods, have them get APPROVED prior to release, and then let the community download / install approved add-ons. Mass release by the public is just too unstable imo.Stands-Strong-As-Snow ~ Argonian Templar DC NA V14
Ytheri ~ Argonian Nightblade EP Thornblade NA V14
Heals-All-Colours ~ Argonian Templar EP Thornblade NA V14
Stands-In-Still-Waters~ Argonian Sorcerer EP Thornblade NA V20 -
Arreyanne✭✭✭✭Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.magic_is_might wrote: »Blackwolfe5 wrote: »I agree that things such as a proper guild store search is needed, but I will not wait until such a feature is added.
And that's the issue. Instead of adding one themselves they are content to just let you use addons to get it.
Because the developers support add-ons. Hence why the added in the ability to make these add-ons possible. You do realize the reason they have such "poor" vanilla UI is because they knew addons would be a thing...
The *** poor Ui is because they wanted to port the game to Consoles
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magic_is_might✭✭✭Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.Just my two cents - add-ons open to the entire community make for lazy game development (hey the community will fix that, we don't need to improve our guild store search) and open the doors wide for botters. If anything I'd say restrict who can make mods, have them get APPROVED prior to release, and then let the community download / install approved add-ons. Mass release by the public is just too unstable imo.
And give the developers even more stuff to do? Instead of focusing on important bug fixes and content, you'd rather have them sift through thousands of addons just in case one of them might let you see a shyshard location? All that effort to remove something you can easily Google yourself.Sienna Nightsky | Aldmeri Dominion | Nightblade Woodelf2 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No. They give players too many advantages/disadvantages.magic_is_might wrote: »Blackwolfe5 wrote: »I agree that things such as a proper guild store search is needed, but I will not wait until such a feature is added.
And that's the issue. Instead of adding one themselves they are content to just let you use addons to get it.
Because the developers support add-ons. Hence why the added in the ability to make these add-ons possible. You do realize the reason they have such "poor" vanilla UI is because they knew addons would be a thing...
Yes I know that is the reason... and that is the point.
I don't like this approach and believe important UI features such as search functions, buff icons etc. should be handled by the developers themselves and not left up to outside sources as it has been called.
Expecting players to have to browse different websites to find needed features is a huge design mistake and one of the reasons subscriptions are dropping. Because not everyone is accustomed or comfortable dealing with the so-called addon community.Edited by Jeremy on 22 May 2014 16:311 -
ShinChuck✭✭✭Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.Absolutely should be allowed, particularly given the current status of the UI.
The only argument against addons that has any significant merit is leveling the field in PvP. But as far as PvE goes, let players play as players want to play. ES has always been about that, and always hugely supportive of the idea."It's morally wrong to suggest gameplay changes for an MMO."
...seriously, someone told me that once here. The things people will do to win their internet arguments!1 -
ckf12b14_ESO✭✭✭Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.Wait, people actually want to get rid of add-ons because they think it's cheating? Are you insane or just mentally impaired?
If an add-on is blatantly cheating, it's banned. You think if add-ons in general were banned, cheating programs would just go away? That's the thing with cheaters; /they don't follow the rules/. They'll just cheat around the rules anyways. In the meantime, legitimate players get to suffer from bad UI because people wanted add-ons banned "4 da cheatz".5 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No. They give players too many advantages/disadvantages.ckf12b14_ESO wrote: »Wait, people actually want to get rid of add-ons because they think it's cheating? Are you insane or just mentally impaired?
If an add-on is blatantly cheating, it's banned. You think if add-ons in general were banned, cheating programs would just go away? That's the thing with cheaters; /they don't follow the rules/. They'll just cheat around the rules anyways. In the meantime, legitimate players get to suffer from bad UI because people wanted add-ons banned "4 da cheatz".
They offer advantages.
Rather you want to call it cheating or not is debatable.2 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No. They give players too many advantages/disadvantages.magic_is_might wrote: »Just my two cents - add-ons open to the entire community make for lazy game development (hey the community will fix that, we don't need to improve our guild store search) and open the doors wide for botters. If anything I'd say restrict who can make mods, have them get APPROVED prior to release, and then let the community download / install approved add-ons. Mass release by the public is just too unstable imo.
And give the developers even more stuff to do? Instead of focusing on important bug fixes and content, you'd rather have them sift through thousands of addons just in case one of them might let you see a shyshard location? All that effort to remove something you can easily Google yourself.
It's misleading how you choose to focus on skyshard locations rather the more significant functions addons are being relied on for. Such as search functions for the guild store, minimaps, detailed battle and map interfaces etc.
To expect the developers to implement these types of features is not unreasonable.
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moonsugar66✭✭✭Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.Basically I think the API is fine except it shouldn't be able to see the location of shards, lore books, and resource nodes. That's cheating. You should have to look that information up if you want to cheat that way; being able to see all of that in-game instantly is very cheap and sorta lame.
It also discourages naturally discovering the shards and books, which exploration and natural discovery are the two most fun things about this game.
Ok. You've got to look at this from another perspective: each time you "discover" a node, you make at least a mental note of its location. Else, you're drawing up a map on a piece of paper and marking its location so that the next time you need to find a node, you will remember where you found it. Doing so is not cheating. Its smart. There are addons that make this task easier.
If you don't like keeping records and having visual aids that help you remember your discoveries, that's a personal choice and one that shouldn't be imposed on everyone else.
Edit: I know how the shard and book mods work, they show the locations prior to discovery. Still, if I were to play the game without the mod - I'd still make a record of their locations with screenshots so I could remember where to find them on an alt character or help a friend. Again, that's not cheating. That's being smart.Edited by moonsugar66 on 22 May 2014 16:511 -
Drasn✭✭✭✭Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.ckf12b14_ESO wrote: »Wait, people actually want to get rid of add-ons because they think it's cheating? Are you insane or just mentally impaired?
If an add-on is blatantly cheating, it's banned. You think if add-ons in general were banned, cheating programs would just go away? That's the thing with cheaters; /they don't follow the rules/. They'll just cheat around the rules anyways. In the meantime, legitimate players get to suffer from bad UI because people wanted add-ons banned "4 da cheatz".
They offer advantages.
Rather you want to call it cheating or not is debatable.
What advantages do they offer, or rather, what advantages do you think they offer?
More specifically, if I run an addon, how does it effect you?
Is there a magical addon that makes me level up faster?
Or one that makes my attacks hit harder?
Tells me what you are about to do?
Seriously, quality of life addons, such as UI customization, the ability to add pins to your map, search functionality, crafting helpers, inventory management, etc. in no way give a player an advantage over another player.
These addons allow you to keep track of things in game rather than be surrounded by a mass of paper trying to remember all that crap.
The day an addon gives you an advantage in a group or pvp situation over another player, that is when your argument has any weight.2 -
ShinChuck✭✭✭Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.ckf12b14_ESO wrote: »Wait, people actually want to get rid of add-ons because they think it's cheating? Are you insane or just mentally impaired?
If an add-on is blatantly cheating, it's banned. You think if add-ons in general were banned, cheating programs would just go away? That's the thing with cheaters; /they don't follow the rules/. They'll just cheat around the rules anyways. In the meantime, legitimate players get to suffer from bad UI because people wanted add-ons banned "4 da cheatz".
They offer advantages.
Rather you want to call it cheating or not is debatable.
ZOS makes the rules. If they don't declare an addon cheating, it's not. You're right, that's not debatable. I like your term "advantages", I think that's a fair way to approach it, particularly as they're advantages available to everyone willing to put in the "effort" to install them/customize them."It's morally wrong to suggest gameplay changes for an MMO."
...seriously, someone told me that once here. The things people will do to win their internet arguments!1 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No. They give players too many advantages/disadvantages.thomas.k.grayb14_ESO wrote: »ckf12b14_ESO wrote: »Wait, people actually want to get rid of add-ons because they think it's cheating? Are you insane or just mentally impaired?
If an add-on is blatantly cheating, it's banned. You think if add-ons in general were banned, cheating programs would just go away? That's the thing with cheaters; /they don't follow the rules/. They'll just cheat around the rules anyways. In the meantime, legitimate players get to suffer from bad UI because people wanted add-ons banned "4 da cheatz".
They offer advantages.
Rather you want to call it cheating or not is debatable.
Seriously, quality of life addons, such as UI customization, the ability to add pins to your map, search functionality, crafting helpers, inventory management, etc. in no way give a player an advantage over another player.
Oh I just completely disagree. Of course they offer you advantages. That's why you downloaded them to begin with.
They may not be advantageous on a competitive level. But they are still advantages and offer you improved tools that increase your ability to navigate the game's systems more effectively.1 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No. They give players too many advantages/disadvantages.ckf12b14_ESO wrote: »Wait, people actually want to get rid of add-ons because they think it's cheating? Are you insane or just mentally impaired?
If an add-on is blatantly cheating, it's banned. You think if add-ons in general were banned, cheating programs would just go away? That's the thing with cheaters; /they don't follow the rules/. They'll just cheat around the rules anyways. In the meantime, legitimate players get to suffer from bad UI because people wanted add-ons banned "4 da cheatz".
They offer advantages.
Rather you want to call it cheating or not is debatable.
ZOS makes the rules. If they don't declare an addon cheating, it's not. You're right, that's not debatable. I like your term "advantages", I think that's a fair way to approach it, particularly as they're advantages available to everyone willing to put in the "effort" to install them/customize them.
That's not exactly what I was trying to say. But I do agree with you that advantages is a better term to describe it rather cheating.
You are right that all players have the option to download these addons. But I don't think players should be forced to log into outside websites and download programs designed by other people they may not trust to have the same benefits as other players.
I realize I may be in the minority on this. But I'm not going to change my mind. I don't want this game turning into who ever has the best addons wins as I have seen in other games I've played.
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ckf12b14_ESO✭✭✭Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.ckf12b14_ESO wrote: »Wait, people actually want to get rid of add-ons because they think it's cheating? Are you insane or just mentally impaired?
If an add-on is blatantly cheating, it's banned. You think if add-ons in general were banned, cheating programs would just go away? That's the thing with cheaters; /they don't follow the rules/. They'll just cheat around the rules anyways. In the meantime, legitimate players get to suffer from bad UI because people wanted add-ons banned "4 da cheatz".
They offer advantages.
Rather you want to call it cheating or not is debatable.
Of course they do. But are these advantages putting anyone directly ahead of anyone else? No, they aren't. All add-ons offer are quality of life advantages, there's no "wow i get bonus stats from this add-on!!".
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Reignskream✭✭✭✭Yes. They're part of what makes this game great.ckf12b14_ESO wrote: »Wait, people actually want to get rid of add-ons because they think it's cheating? Are you insane or just mentally impaired?
If an add-on is blatantly cheating, it's banned. You think if add-ons in general were banned, cheating programs would just go away? That's the thing with cheaters; /they don't follow the rules/. They'll just cheat around the rules anyways. In the meantime, legitimate players get to suffer from bad UI because people wanted add-ons banned "4 da cheatz".
They offer advantages.
Rather you want to call it cheating or not is debatable.
ZOS makes the rules. If they don't declare an addon cheating, it's not. You're right, that's not debatable. I like your term "advantages", I think that's a fair way to approach it, particularly as they're advantages available to everyone willing to put in the "effort" to install them/customize them.
That's not exactly what I was trying to say. But I do agree with you that advantages is a better term to describe it rather cheating.
You are right that all players have the option to download these addons. But I don't think players should be forced to log into outside websites and download programs designed by other people they may not trust to have the same benefits as other players.
I realize I may be in the minority on this. But I'm not going to change my mind. I don't want this game turning into who ever has the best addons wins as I have seen in other games I've played.
IMO nobody is forced. At least even in my support of addons, nobody is forced *YET.* There may come a day, but that day is not today. And when it comes, well It isn't something that bugs me as much. But I'm sure it will bug others.0