OBJnoob wrote: »

DrNukenstein wrote: »

Meanwhile a Sorc hit me with snipe, power overload, crystal weapon, and poison injection all at the same time. Then they did it again.

Super telegraphed and you can roll dodge all of it. That's what you'd say if I was complaining about a NB combo, right?

Even more telegraphed when it comes from a visible enemy I would assume.

The sorc is actually using abilities and lining up burst. It takes 3 or 4 cooldowns for all of that to happen, whether it hits you in 1 or not.

Also, the sorc doesn't have a burst heal. So many key differences here.

DrNukenstein wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

Super telegraphed and you can roll dodge all of it. That's what you'd say if I was complaining about a NB combo, right?

Even more telegraphed when it comes from a visible enemy I would assume.

The sorc is actually using abilities and lining up burst. It takes 3 or 4 cooldowns for all of that to happen, whether it hits you in 1 or not.

Also, the sorc doesn't have a burst heal. So many key differences here.

Except here's the thing. They did it from 30+ meters while I was fighting someone else. Each of those abilities could be used repeatedly meaning they could do that combo every 3 seconds if they wanted, that's less time than it takes for roll penalty to reset. And if anyone went after them, they would streak to safety while potentially taxing the pursuers stam with a guaranteed stun cooked into their mobility.

What I'm getting at is what sorc is capable of is every bit as obnoxious and tedious to play around, arguably more so because it's more spammable, and less punishable because there is no positional commitment. If it's not okay to play stealth melee, then it's not okay to play like that.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

The ability and ease for the 2 classes to deal that amount of damage are not even remotely close. NB has to put themselves at risk in melee and the combo requires a dodgeable ultimate. The all reward sorcerer is very low risk and minimum effort with it's ability to stay away from the fight and throw 4-skill globals on demand unless people make the decision to drop what they're doing and go over there to stop them.

OBJnoob wrote: »

When crouching grants sorc major savagery we can talk.

DrNukenstein wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

The ability and ease for the 2 classes to deal that amount of damage are not even remotely close. NB is minimum risk/effort, all reward, sorcerer is very high risk and maximum effort with minimum reward.

fixed it. Also, my clear bias for NB and obvious blind hatred of sorcs is clear on display for all to see.

SandandStars wrote: »

DrNukenstein wrote: »

a good Nightblade isn't any more obscene than the average DK or dot sorc. People always, in every game, have a disproportionate problem with the stealth class compared to the others.

If it's that OP, how come you aren't playing it?

I don’t play NB because I enjoy competition.

I don’t find beating people on an overtuned class satisfying.

Like, why would I feel good about winning a sword fight with a grenade? That’s merciless resolve+ nbs absurdly overtuned toolkit. Look at the offensive skill advantages in pvp, and then look at NBs heals. It’s off by a magnitude.

DrNukenstein wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

When crouching grants sorc major savagery we can talk.

It doesn't, but it sure can let them (really any class, but especially sorc) deliver a lethal ranged combo from out of combat with no tell.

DrNukenstein wrote: »

If I add up the base damage (which implies a damage ratio) of those 4 sorc skills that can be delivered repeatedly from range/out of combat and compare it to the much maligned but gated incap>spec bow combo here is how they compare

DrNukenstein wrote: »

*Numbers taken from eso skill book

Crystal weapon (1st hit):2091
Power overload: 2640
Deadly aim: 2404
Poison Injection: 1161 with significant execute scaling, this is important because it's the last part of the combo that would hit in that 1 second.

total: 8296, with current health scaling benefitting the first few hits and missing health benifitting the last hit. A true three pointer. Really a 4 pointer if such things existed. since it's 4 readily spammable skills crammed into one GCD delivered from a safe range or out of combat if one so chooses. Curse could be added for more damage, but it would alert the target and if you can't get them with 4 skills in one second, why would you think 5 would make the difference?


Incap: 3718
Merciless resolve: 4752

total: 8470, delivered in two seperate GCDs with 3 loud sound effects the first being the "wooosh" you hear when a nightblade with bow ready get's close. There are nice modifiers, but are they really that much better than the modifiers the combo above has access to?

DrNukenstein wrote: »

The point is there is at least one other class that can do that kind of damage out of nowhere and is equally enabled to deliver that damage and is at least as safe while doing so.

DrNukenstein wrote: »

If I add up the base damage (which implies a damage ratio) of those 4 sorc skills that can be delivered repeatedly from range/out of combat and compare it to the much maligned but gated incap>spec bow combo here is how they compare

*Numbers taken from eso skill book

Crystal weapon (1st hit):2091
Power overload: 2640
Deadly aim: 2404
Poison Injection: 1161 with significant execute scaling, this is important because it's the last part of the combo that would hit in that 1 second.

total: 8296, with current health scaling benefitting the first few hits and missing health benifitting the last hit. A true three pointer. Really a 4 pointer if such things existed. since it's 4 readily spammable skills crammed into one GCD delivered from a safe range or out of combat if one so chooses. Curse could be added for more damage, but it would alert the target and if you can't get them with 4 skills in one second, why would you think 5 would make the difference?


Incap: 3718
Merciless resolve: 4752

total: 8470, delivered in two seperate GCDs with 3 loud sound effects the first being the "wooosh" you hear when a nightblade with bow ready get's close. There are nice modifiers, but are they really that much better than the modifiers the combo above has access to? Since the combo is sequential, and not stacked it is possible that half this combo hits where as the combo above is hit or miss due to happening in one GCD.

The point is there is at least one other class that can do that kind of damage out of nowhere and is equally enabled to deliver that damage and is at least as safe while doing so.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

DrNukenstein wrote: »

If I add up the base damage (which implies a damage ratio) of those 4 sorc skills that can be delivered repeatedly from range/out of combat and compare it to the much maligned but gated incap>spec bow combo here is how they compare

*Numbers taken from eso skill book

Crystal weapon (1st hit):2091
Power overload: 2640
Deadly aim: 2404
Poison Injection: 1161 with significant execute scaling, this is important because it's the last part of the combo that would hit in that 1 second.

total: 8296, with current health scaling benefitting the first few hits and missing health benifitting the last hit. A true three pointer. Really a 4 pointer if such things existed. since it's 4 readily spammable skills crammed into one GCD delivered from a safe range or out of combat if one so chooses. Curse could be added for more damage, but it would alert the target and if you can't get them with 4 skills in one second, why would you think 5 would make the difference?


Incap: 3718
Merciless resolve: 4752

total: 8470, delivered in two seperate GCDs with 3 loud sound effects the first being the "wooosh" you hear when a nightblade with bow ready get's close. There are nice modifiers, but are they really that much better than the modifiers the combo above has access to? Since the combo is sequential, and not stacked it is possible that half this combo hits where as the combo above is hit or miss due to happening in one GCD.

The point is there is at least one other class that can do that kind of damage out of nowhere and is equally enabled to deliver that damage and is at least as safe while doing so.

I didn't realise that Snipe and Poison Injection were sorc exclusive abilities. How are NBs allowed to use those "sorc exclusive" abilities then? (your inference, not mine)

You keep proving more and more that your comments are nothing but pure bias and misleading (at best). Stop trying to defend the indefensible with this continued deflection nonsense.

Also, lets talk about sound tells, snipe has a distinct thwap when its launched, same with overload and its zap sound when the projectile is launched. Both of these projectiles also have a slow travel time meaning you have even more time to dodge roll them than you would a melee range ability like incap (even if you have delay).

None of these abilities in the sorc combo come with a built in stun either, essentially guaranteeing the follow up to land.

Lets also talk about the cost numbers then shall we? Since you want to put forward there being a "Ratio".

Cost of casting sorcerer combo:
4 GCD
25 Ultimate
7425 Stamina
2 Bow weapon abilities
Forced weapon choice on front bar (prevents running better options such as DW).

Results in 8296 base damage.

Cost of casting NB combo:
2 GCD
70/120 ultimate
1890 Magicka
No global abilities required
No forced weapon choice

Results in 8470 base damage.

So despite taking twice as long to set up the combo (that doesn't have a stun attached to it), requiring 2 globally available weapon abilities that other classes (including NB) can also use, and a forced weapon choice, it still does 2% less damage than the NB combo at base.
This also completely ignores the far too many damage modifiers that NB has access to. If we actually account for those modifiers NB has, just spec bow alone is dealing as much if not more damage than that entire sorc combo and spec bow is ranged too.

Fun fact, the sorc ultimate cost goes up because of vamp stage 3, meanwhile the NB stun threshold for incap remains at a flat 120 ultimate.

If we ignore saving for the stun on incap, the sorc combo also loses out on resource cost too. Sorc combo costs roughly 4 times as much basic resources while the NB combo costs less than 3 times as much ultimate. Accounting for saving for the incap stun, this becomes much more even in terms of resource cost where NB costs roughly 4 times as much ultimate, but sorc costs 4 times as much basic resources.

As was mentioned earlier, overload requires the target to be stunned (at least not moving) to actually land its slow projectile meaning that its more likely to just miss entirely after still casting itself into thin air. That completely takes away both overload and crystal weapon since that was a light attack that was cast. Meaning the damage being done against a moving/defending target is just snipe/poison injection. Also remember that this combo does not have a built in stun.

For that amount of investment of effort and resources into a burst combo, the sorc combo should be dealing twice as much damage as it currently does.

The NB combo is just objectively more efficient, easier and stronger than any sorc combo.

That doesn't even take into account defensive options. As was stated before players are extremely kill thirsty in PvP and the ONLY way to get them off your back is to completely vanish from their view. Only NB can do this, a streaking sorc will always be visible to them and will always get chased down and killed because everyone knows that sorc has zero real defense options outside of streak (shields are a bad mechanic and healing is non-existent on sorc).