nightblades out of control in pvp

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

Call me elitist or whatever, but I don't really like seeing my class being picked up because it's overperforming.

It's kinda like Sorc being fotm because of 1 build. You take away that build, and all the fotm players will disappear. The OGs remain and they can make any build work.

Take away some of the unnecessary buffs NB got recently for PvP, and the only NBs you will see are OG mains who had years of experience on their class. Those guys will make anything work on NB.

Seeing multiple of any class or build in pvp is so boring. That's one thing that makes me just want to log off.

I prefer seeing different skills, builds and interactions and the game supporting that. Right now you tend to see a lot of the same combos and sets.

Incap Mr
Master vate marselok
beam spam
Dk warden sea serpent


I'd rather see a patch cycle with a bunch of interesting and viable build options and that rewards skilled play, theory crafting, etc

TechMaybeHic

StaticWave wrote: »

Call me elitist or whatever, but I don't really like seeing my class being picked up because it's overperforming.

It's kinda like Sorc being fotm because of 1 build. You take away that build, and all the fotm players will disappear. The OGs remain and they can make any build work.

Take away some of the unnecessary buffs NB got recently for PvP, and the only NBs you will see are OG mains who had years of experience on their class. Those guys will make anything work on NB.

I was like that when they had buffed Templar living dark (which is still good even after it was nerfed ateast once after they made it a defense) but my reaction was great joy killing probably 95% of them that would use it while still not using it myself most the time. Just doing what I always did before it existed.

Part of it is knowing in depth, what is rough for you on the class when you know it well. Knowing what takes a bit more finesse to make work than people think. NB; it's really landing that combo because as soon as you open, or stun a target; their first reaction is going to be breakfree into different roll.

Doesn't excuse it though. Often times you're in a crowd and you are not going to see the full glass guy just unload it. Popular thing I see is one troll tank getting attention so the NB people don't realize is there has more of a chance to sneak it in. Then, as mentioned; NBs have everything so don't even have to dedicate to that

Galeriano

FoJul wrote: »

I Disagree. Nightblades aren't the best solo class for OW. They aren't the best dueling class. They aren't the best BG class. They aren't the best group support class. The only thing Nightblade shines in is ganking.

The hybrid blade has shot to S tier and back down to A tier where everything else is besides DK and Warden.

Ranged Magblade is the worst archetype in the game outside of both necros. Some would argue. Traditional Stamblade is also very mid compared to other classes.

Taking specific builds from build editor doesn't prove anything. I've seen these builds in action and I've used one of them before. And DK/rangeplar/warden and some proc stamsorcs have beaten these setups (Not just me).

The only thing that's outrageous is Merciless Resolve Damage potential and Cloak. As the rest of nightblade is easily counterable. And maybe Healthy offering potential.

In most cases you wont see anything above 12k Merciless resolves. Unless of course its an all damage Nightblade and he lands the full combo on you without you doing anything about it. Basically going limp will cause you to get 20k+ merciless'd. Or your attacking squishier targets that aren't familiar with PvP.

So 12k merciless' are fine. What's not fine is the damage potential on merciless. you can get the tooltip to read easily over 20k. In some cases even 40k on the tooltip alone. And the major bezerk in the melee spammable, the 20% vuln from incap, the debuffs, all of these things take skill and precision to apply to a target and land. Templar is a hard counter to this entire Combo. As you can purge just about 40% or a little more of raw damage multipliers.

Cleansing CP can clear the damage multipliers. Sets like maras/wyrd tree can also remove the damage multipliers. A simple timed roll dodge can evade damage. You add another roll dodge and you avoid the bow.

I will add that I am a little biased as I am a nightblade myself. But i can only defend my class so much. I hate the melee playstyle. I'm a rangeblade personally, and I don't get to see these high numbers almost never. So nerfing something because of 1 build potential isn't really balancing. It's just removing something people don't like fighting.

Fact that nb isn't the best at everything doesn't justify it being borderline broken at one specific thing. It's kinda an escape goat argument. By that logic we could break game balance completly and make every class highly overperforming in one specific task and say it's ok as long as it's not a number 1 at anything else. That's not how balance works.

I wouldnl't say everything except DK and watden is at A tier atm.

Ranged nightblade is where it is mainly because of a cloak and stealth playstyle. Cloak was and still is holding that setup back from getting buffs. If ranged magblade would reach high level of effectiveness and would have stealth playstyle on top of it, this would break PvP completly. Even right now the most abused version of the nb in PvP is a archer because how easier it is to play when You have range combined with cloak. Making nb kit to support that playstyle even more would be a horrible idea. The only way for ranged magblade to finally be decent is to first rebalance stealth playstyle completly.

FoJul

Galeriano wrote: »

FoJul wrote: »

I Disagree. Nightblades aren't the best solo class for OW. They aren't the best dueling class. They aren't the best BG class. They aren't the best group support class. The only thing Nightblade shines in is ganking.

The hybrid blade has shot to S tier and back down to A tier where everything else is besides DK and Warden.

Ranged Magblade is the worst archetype in the game outside of both necros. Some would argue. Traditional Stamblade is also very mid compared to other classes.

Taking specific builds from build editor doesn't prove anything. I've seen these builds in action and I've used one of them before. And DK/rangeplar/warden and some proc stamsorcs have beaten these setups (Not just me).

The only thing that's outrageous is Merciless Resolve Damage potential and Cloak. As the rest of nightblade is easily counterable. And maybe Healthy offering potential.

In most cases you wont see anything above 12k Merciless resolves. Unless of course its an all damage Nightblade and he lands the full combo on you without you doing anything about it. Basically going limp will cause you to get 20k+ merciless'd. Or your attacking squishier targets that aren't familiar with PvP.

So 12k merciless' are fine. What's not fine is the damage potential on merciless. you can get the tooltip to read easily over 20k. In some cases even 40k on the tooltip alone. And the major bezerk in the melee spammable, the 20% vuln from incap, the debuffs, all of these things take skill and precision to apply to a target and land. Templar is a hard counter to this entire Combo. As you can purge just about 40% or a little more of raw damage multipliers.

Cleansing CP can clear the damage multipliers. Sets like maras/wyrd tree can also remove the damage multipliers. A simple timed roll dodge can evade damage. You add another roll dodge and you avoid the bow.

I will add that I am a little biased as I am a nightblade myself. But i can only defend my class so much. I hate the melee playstyle. I'm a rangeblade personally, and I don't get to see these high numbers almost never. So nerfing something because of 1 build potential isn't really balancing. It's just removing something people don't like fighting.

Fact that nb isn't the best at everything doesn't justify it being borderline broken at one specific thing. It's kinda an escape goat argument. By that logic we could break game balance completly and make every class highly overperforming in one specific task and say it's ok as long as it's not a number 1 at anything else. That's not how balance works.

I wouldnl't say everything except DK and watden is at A tier atm.

Ranged nightblade is where it is mainly because of a cloak and stealth playstyle. Cloak was and still is holding that setup back from getting buffs. If ranged magblade would reach high level of effectiveness and would have stealth playstyle on top of it, this would break PvP completly. Even right now the most abused version of the nb in PvP is a archer because how easier it is to play when You have range combined with cloak. Making nb kit to support that playstyle even more would be a horrible idea. The only way for ranged magblade to finally be decent is to first rebalance stealth playstyle completly.

Like I have said multiple times, Merciless Resolve damage POTENTIAL is to high. Either take away some of the damage multipliers that nb gets and buff up pressure abilities, or just simply lower the TT of merciless. These would be great idea, no Zos im not telling you what to do, its just an idea.

The bad thing about cloak, is Nightblade is the invisible class. The invisibility probably will forever be broken. I do think they should make it cost like 6k magicka or something. Or a 2 second cooldown starting after you leave sneak.

Buff dark cloak. Give more reasons to run a broken heal rather than stealth. Atleast you can still damage someone with dark cloak.

Galeriano

FoJul wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

FoJul wrote: »

I Disagree. Nightblades aren't the best solo class for OW. They aren't the best dueling class. They aren't the best BG class. They aren't the best group support class. The only thing Nightblade shines in is ganking.

The hybrid blade has shot to S tier and back down to A tier where everything else is besides DK and Warden.

Ranged Magblade is the worst archetype in the game outside of both necros. Some would argue. Traditional Stamblade is also very mid compared to other classes.

Taking specific builds from build editor doesn't prove anything. I've seen these builds in action and I've used one of them before. And DK/rangeplar/warden and some proc stamsorcs have beaten these setups (Not just me).

The only thing that's outrageous is Merciless Resolve Damage potential and Cloak. As the rest of nightblade is easily counterable. And maybe Healthy offering potential.

In most cases you wont see anything above 12k Merciless resolves. Unless of course its an all damage Nightblade and he lands the full combo on you without you doing anything about it. Basically going limp will cause you to get 20k+ merciless'd. Or your attacking squishier targets that aren't familiar with PvP.

So 12k merciless' are fine. What's not fine is the damage potential on merciless. you can get the tooltip to read easily over 20k. In some cases even 40k on the tooltip alone. And the major bezerk in the melee spammable, the 20% vuln from incap, the debuffs, all of these things take skill and precision to apply to a target and land. Templar is a hard counter to this entire Combo. As you can purge just about 40% or a little more of raw damage multipliers.

Cleansing CP can clear the damage multipliers. Sets like maras/wyrd tree can also remove the damage multipliers. A simple timed roll dodge can evade damage. You add another roll dodge and you avoid the bow.

I will add that I am a little biased as I am a nightblade myself. But i can only defend my class so much. I hate the melee playstyle. I'm a rangeblade personally, and I don't get to see these high numbers almost never. So nerfing something because of 1 build potential isn't really balancing. It's just removing something people don't like fighting.

Fact that nb isn't the best at everything doesn't justify it being borderline broken at one specific thing. It's kinda an escape goat argument. By that logic we could break game balance completly and make every class highly overperforming in one specific task and say it's ok as long as it's not a number 1 at anything else. That's not how balance works.

I wouldnl't say everything except DK and watden is at A tier atm.

Ranged nightblade is where it is mainly because of a cloak and stealth playstyle. Cloak was and still is holding that setup back from getting buffs. If ranged magblade would reach high level of effectiveness and would have stealth playstyle on top of it, this would break PvP completly. Even right now the most abused version of the nb in PvP is a archer because how easier it is to play when You have range combined with cloak. Making nb kit to support that playstyle even more would be a horrible idea. The only way for ranged magblade to finally be decent is to first rebalance stealth playstyle completly.

Like I have said multiple times, Merciless Resolve damage POTENTIAL is to high. Either take away some of the damage multipliers that nb gets and buff up pressure abilities, or just simply lower the TT of merciless. These would be great idea, no Zos im not telling you what to do, its just an idea.

The bad thing about cloak, is Nightblade is the invisible class. The invisibility probably will forever be broken. I do think they should make it cost like 6k magicka or something. Or a 2 second cooldown starting after you leave sneak.

Buff dark cloak. Give more reasons to run a broken heal rather than stealth. Atleast you can still damage someone with dark cloak.

Merciless resolve wouldn't be an issue if stealth playstyle on nightblade would be properly designed.

There is multiple ways to balance cloak other than making it to cost 6k. Being invisibility class doesn't mean said invisibility should have close to zero drawbacks.

Problem is nightblade right now can run both broken heal and a cloak. It's really wierd approach to make second morph of ability broken just so first one would be used less. That clearely suggest first morph is broken and should be dealt with.

FoJul

Galeriano wrote: »

FoJul wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

FoJul wrote: »

I Disagree. Nightblades aren't the best solo class for OW. They aren't the best dueling class. They aren't the best BG class. They aren't the best group support class. The only thing Nightblade shines in is ganking.

The hybrid blade has shot to S tier and back down to A tier where everything else is besides DK and Warden.

Ranged Magblade is the worst archetype in the game outside of both necros. Some would argue. Traditional Stamblade is also very mid compared to other classes.

Taking specific builds from build editor doesn't prove anything. I've seen these builds in action and I've used one of them before. And DK/rangeplar/warden and some proc stamsorcs have beaten these setups (Not just me).

The only thing that's outrageous is Merciless Resolve Damage potential and Cloak. As the rest of nightblade is easily counterable. And maybe Healthy offering potential.

In most cases you wont see anything above 12k Merciless resolves. Unless of course its an all damage Nightblade and he lands the full combo on you without you doing anything about it. Basically going limp will cause you to get 20k+ merciless'd. Or your attacking squishier targets that aren't familiar with PvP.

So 12k merciless' are fine. What's not fine is the damage potential on merciless. you can get the tooltip to read easily over 20k. In some cases even 40k on the tooltip alone. And the major bezerk in the melee spammable, the 20% vuln from incap, the debuffs, all of these things take skill and precision to apply to a target and land. Templar is a hard counter to this entire Combo. As you can purge just about 40% or a little more of raw damage multipliers.

Cleansing CP can clear the damage multipliers. Sets like maras/wyrd tree can also remove the damage multipliers. A simple timed roll dodge can evade damage. You add another roll dodge and you avoid the bow.

I will add that I am a little biased as I am a nightblade myself. But i can only defend my class so much. I hate the melee playstyle. I'm a rangeblade personally, and I don't get to see these high numbers almost never. So nerfing something because of 1 build potential isn't really balancing. It's just removing something people don't like fighting.

Fact that nb isn't the best at everything doesn't justify it being borderline broken at one specific thing. It's kinda an escape goat argument. By that logic we could break game balance completly and make every class highly overperforming in one specific task and say it's ok as long as it's not a number 1 at anything else. That's not how balance works.

I wouldnl't say everything except DK and watden is at A tier atm.

Ranged nightblade is where it is mainly because of a cloak and stealth playstyle. Cloak was and still is holding that setup back from getting buffs. If ranged magblade would reach high level of effectiveness and would have stealth playstyle on top of it, this would break PvP completly. Even right now the most abused version of the nb in PvP is a archer because how easier it is to play when You have range combined with cloak. Making nb kit to support that playstyle even more would be a horrible idea. The only way for ranged magblade to finally be decent is to first rebalance stealth playstyle completly.

Like I have said multiple times, Merciless Resolve damage POTENTIAL is to high. Either take away some of the damage multipliers that nb gets and buff up pressure abilities, or just simply lower the TT of merciless. These would be great idea, no Zos im not telling you what to do, its just an idea.

The bad thing about cloak, is Nightblade is the invisible class. The invisibility probably will forever be broken. I do think they should make it cost like 6k magicka or something. Or a 2 second cooldown starting after you leave sneak.

Buff dark cloak. Give more reasons to run a broken heal rather than stealth. Atleast you can still damage someone with dark cloak.

Merciless resolve wouldn't be an issue if stealth playstyle on nightblade would be properly designed.

There is multiple ways to balance cloak other than making it to cost 6k. Being invisibility class doesn't mean said invisibility should have close to zero drawbacks.

Problem is nightblade right now can run both broken heal and a cloak. It's really wierd approach to make second morph of ability broken just so first one would be used less. That clearely suggest first morph is broken and should be dealt with.

So if a brawler nightblade shoots you with a 20k+ bow, that's fine? But, if a ganker does it and cloaks away and full heals, that's not ok?

I'm just trying to understand, as everyone I know complains about bow.

Maybe your saying this, Nightblade has huge burst damage/burst heals/ and cloak. So take away cloak and burst heals, and then you have a balanced nightblade?

I can assure you, if people started running dark cloak it would be even harder to kill them, as Dark cloak would force nightblades to run higher health. So now you got a 40k hp nightblade that has 3k hps with one button. Plus burst heal.

Dark cloak+ vigor + Healthy = Unkillable.

People will find ways to survive they can even start slotting shade. But they still will have 2 shot potential. That means nightblade still killing ppl with ease.

Or I'm just completely wrong and everyone just annoyed by cloak users, and want the skills banned cause people don't like fighting it. That's a biased opinion.

Galeriano

FoJul wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

FoJul wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

FoJul wrote: »

I Disagree. Nightblades aren't the best solo class for OW. They aren't the best dueling class. They aren't the best BG class. They aren't the best group support class. The only thing Nightblade shines in is ganking.

The hybrid blade has shot to S tier and back down to A tier where everything else is besides DK and Warden.

Ranged Magblade is the worst archetype in the game outside of both necros. Some would argue. Traditional Stamblade is also very mid compared to other classes.

Taking specific builds from build editor doesn't prove anything. I've seen these builds in action and I've used one of them before. And DK/rangeplar/warden and some proc stamsorcs have beaten these setups (Not just me).

The only thing that's outrageous is Merciless Resolve Damage potential and Cloak. As the rest of nightblade is easily counterable. And maybe Healthy offering potential.

In most cases you wont see anything above 12k Merciless resolves. Unless of course its an all damage Nightblade and he lands the full combo on you without you doing anything about it. Basically going limp will cause you to get 20k+ merciless'd. Or your attacking squishier targets that aren't familiar with PvP.

So 12k merciless' are fine. What's not fine is the damage potential on merciless. you can get the tooltip to read easily over 20k. In some cases even 40k on the tooltip alone. And the major bezerk in the melee spammable, the 20% vuln from incap, the debuffs, all of these things take skill and precision to apply to a target and land. Templar is a hard counter to this entire Combo. As you can purge just about 40% or a little more of raw damage multipliers.

Cleansing CP can clear the damage multipliers. Sets like maras/wyrd tree can also remove the damage multipliers. A simple timed roll dodge can evade damage. You add another roll dodge and you avoid the bow.

I will add that I am a little biased as I am a nightblade myself. But i can only defend my class so much. I hate the melee playstyle. I'm a rangeblade personally, and I don't get to see these high numbers almost never. So nerfing something because of 1 build potential isn't really balancing. It's just removing something people don't like fighting.

Fact that nb isn't the best at everything doesn't justify it being borderline broken at one specific thing. It's kinda an escape goat argument. By that logic we could break game balance completly and make every class highly overperforming in one specific task and say it's ok as long as it's not a number 1 at anything else. That's not how balance works.

I wouldnl't say everything except DK and watden is at A tier atm.

Ranged nightblade is where it is mainly because of a cloak and stealth playstyle. Cloak was and still is holding that setup back from getting buffs. If ranged magblade would reach high level of effectiveness and would have stealth playstyle on top of it, this would break PvP completly. Even right now the most abused version of the nb in PvP is a archer because how easier it is to play when You have range combined with cloak. Making nb kit to support that playstyle even more would be a horrible idea. The only way for ranged magblade to finally be decent is to first rebalance stealth playstyle completly.

Like I have said multiple times, Merciless Resolve damage POTENTIAL is to high. Either take away some of the damage multipliers that nb gets and buff up pressure abilities, or just simply lower the TT of merciless. These would be great idea, no Zos im not telling you what to do, its just an idea.

The bad thing about cloak, is Nightblade is the invisible class. The invisibility probably will forever be broken. I do think they should make it cost like 6k magicka or something. Or a 2 second cooldown starting after you leave sneak.

Buff dark cloak. Give more reasons to run a broken heal rather than stealth. Atleast you can still damage someone with dark cloak.

Merciless resolve wouldn't be an issue if stealth playstyle on nightblade would be properly designed.

There is multiple ways to balance cloak other than making it to cost 6k. Being invisibility class doesn't mean said invisibility should have close to zero drawbacks.

Problem is nightblade right now can run both broken heal and a cloak. It's really wierd approach to make second morph of ability broken just so first one would be used less. That clearely suggest first morph is broken and should be dealt with.

So if a brawler nightblade shoots you with a 20k+ bow, that's fine? But, if a ganker does it and cloaks away and full heals, that's not ok?

I'm just trying to understand, as everyone I know complains about bow.

Maybe your saying this, Nightblade has huge burst damage/burst heals/ and cloak. So take away cloak and burst heals, and then you have a balanced nightblade?

I can assure you, if people started running dark cloak it would be even harder to kill them, as Dark cloak would force nightblades to run higher health. So now you got a 40k hp nightblade that has 3k hps with one button. Plus burst heal.

Dark cloak+ vigor + Healthy = Unkillable.

People will find ways to survive they can even start slotting shade. But they still will have 2 shot potential. That means nightblade still killing ppl with ease.

Or I'm just completely wrong and everyone just annoyed by cloak users, and want the skills banned cause people don't like fighting it. That's a biased opinion.

First of all there is no such a thing as brawler nightblade hitting with 20k+ spectral bow. Every nightblade who lately pulls numbers like that on a spectral bow is playing with cloak. But even if that would be the case I would be completly fine with getting potentially hit with 20k spectral bow as long as I would be sure that nightblade I am fighting against won't just escape into cloak at any given time and complety disturb the flow of combat with that one move putting me at high disadventage and forcing me to put myself at even higher disadventage if I want to use half baked detection methods. These two situations are not even comparable, being able to hit for 20k out of nowhere and vanish right after is miles ahead of just being able to hit for 20k while continously in fight. There are setups on other classes that are also capable to burst You for 20k+ but to do this they need to usually make some special adjustments. Every nightblade on the other hand right now is basically a ganker as long as they have cloak. it's almost silly that one ability turns whole class no matter the build into different variations of one archetype.

I don't complain about bow. I don't have issues with it and in my opinion if stealth playstyle wouldn't be the way it is right now than bow wouldn't be complained as much as it is. Cloak allows nightblades to build way more offensively than many other setups and survive decently while being way more squishy than many other setups. With cloak put in place nightblades wouldn't be able to reach such high numbers on bow because they would have to start sacrificing dmg to compensate in other areas and if they would want to go full gank mode they would have to play high risk high reward type of playstyle instead of low risk high reward that current stealth playstyle offers. It's not a coincidence lately Cyrodill and IC are infested with nightblades and even if You fight with someone that isn't nightblade within couple of seconds some nightblade will join the fight. People complain a lot about tanky meta and how sturdy DK and warden are and how many of them there is in PvP but playing tanky brawler classes became only logical solution in the PvP infested with so many gankers that are way easier to play than most of the other setups.

Nightblades would become more tanky with dark cloak? So what? Here is a thing, no amount of healing can equal to 100% dmg reduction You get when You are out of enemy's sight. You dont need to heal if You don't take dmg. Nightblades being tanky but not being able to vanish on demand would still cause them to take more beating than when they just can vanish and stop taking the beating. That would force them to make different setup decisions than they are able to make right now. Within 3 seconds of taking the beating You would have to use way more resources than it cost You to vanish for 3 seconds right now.

The main reason for current nightblade killing potential is his ability to vanish and to balance nightblade that aspect should be targeted first. Nightblades would have to start using shade again? Nothing wrong in that. I would have no issues with nightblades being more tanky and still having high damage potential as long as they would have to be actually engaged in combat and follow the same rules of engagement as everyone else meaning that when You engage in combat You face the consequences.

Bushido2513

So I was in a big yesterday with like 6 or so nightblades. Granted this can happen with any class but I'll also say these days it's not all that rare.

Anyways I can say that yeah it was annoying having players disappear as you go to attack them or to have to run around constantly ready to try to dodgeb high damage from stealth.

Now one could argue that maybe a reveal pot would have been like Christmas at that point. But the reality is that you might get one but would like just catch a bow or incap once you stopped moving to try to attack. And also they could just run while spamming their heal since movement d speed is on tap for them.


It's just really not that fun to go up against. I mean neither is some of the other imbalance/ cheese but I'd have to say yeah I'm still more interested in the attacker I can see or who can't easily heal up and get away when I reveal them.


This is coming from someone that used to argue that counters work. They do but in today's meta not all that well.

derkaiserliche

In no proc cyro: if a nightblade is emperor, you would need at least 3-4 good pvpers to kill him.

High burst, tanky, heals, invisible. Just horrible unbalanced atm.

Galeriano

derkaiserliche wrote: »

In no proc cyro: if a nightblade is emperor, you would need at least 3-4 good pvpers to kill him.

High burst, tanky, heals, invisible. Just horrible unbalanced atm.

Good emperor no matter the class needs many players to kill him. 3-4 is actually not that much and it means emperor was mediocre.

YetAnotherLinuxUser

nerf the nerf posts

OBJnoob

YetAnotherLinuxUser wrote: »

nerf the nerf posts

Can't nerf something that has already had 0 effect.

Buff feedback of all kinds!!

Bushido2513

OBJnoob wrote: »

YetAnotherLinuxUser wrote: »

nerf the nerf posts

Can't nerf something that has already had 0 effect.

Buff feedback of all kinds!!

YetAnotherLinuxUser wrote: »

nerf the nerf posts

The funny thing is that I can see people who are totally ok with things as is and that's worth noting.

Like there are people who play damage dealing Arcanist tanks, people that get several kills with vate/dw/marselok, etc.

I don't really mind this stuff exactly other than that you start to see it over and over all the time.


I think at the end of the day nerf posts could be considered in the same class as just wanting the game to inspire more creativity and skill.


Some suggest bringing everyone up to the same level but I will say power creep is definitely a concern. I'd rather pull back and get everything more in line then consider refinement over straight power increases.

TechMaybeHic

I think threafs like this is why I see so many NBs during double AP and the kill quest for them does not feel any slower than just 20 players. Last night, I think I picked up the quest, had 1 fight, and was done. Could be just the mass large fights, but still. That's a lot of paper NBs

It's the really good ones that get attention

FoJul

Galeriano wrote: »

FoJul wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

FoJul wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

FoJul wrote: »

I Disagree. Nightblades aren't the best solo class for OW. They aren't the best dueling class. They aren't the best BG class. They aren't the best group support class. The only thing Nightblade shines in is ganking.

The hybrid blade has shot to S tier and back down to A tier where everything else is besides DK and Warden.

Ranged Magblade is the worst archetype in the game outside of both necros. Some would argue. Traditional Stamblade is also very mid compared to other classes.

Taking specific builds from build editor doesn't prove anything. I've seen these builds in action and I've used one of them before. And DK/rangeplar/warden and some proc stamsorcs have beaten these setups (Not just me).

The only thing that's outrageous is Merciless Resolve Damage potential and Cloak. As the rest of nightblade is easily counterable. And maybe Healthy offering potential.

In most cases you wont see anything above 12k Merciless resolves. Unless of course its an all damage Nightblade and he lands the full combo on you without you doing anything about it. Basically going limp will cause you to get 20k+ merciless'd. Or your attacking squishier targets that aren't familiar with PvP.

So 12k merciless' are fine. What's not fine is the damage potential on merciless. you can get the tooltip to read easily over 20k. In some cases even 40k on the tooltip alone. And the major bezerk in the melee spammable, the 20% vuln from incap, the debuffs, all of these things take skill and precision to apply to a target and land. Templar is a hard counter to this entire Combo. As you can purge just about 40% or a little more of raw damage multipliers.

Cleansing CP can clear the damage multipliers. Sets like maras/wyrd tree can also remove the damage multipliers. A simple timed roll dodge can evade damage. You add another roll dodge and you avoid the bow.

I will add that I am a little biased as I am a nightblade myself. But i can only defend my class so much. I hate the melee playstyle. I'm a rangeblade personally, and I don't get to see these high numbers almost never. So nerfing something because of 1 build potential isn't really balancing. It's just removing something people don't like fighting.

Fact that nb isn't the best at everything doesn't justify it being borderline broken at one specific thing. It's kinda an escape goat argument. By that logic we could break game balance completly and make every class highly overperforming in one specific task and say it's ok as long as it's not a number 1 at anything else. That's not how balance works.

I wouldnl't say everything except DK and watden is at A tier atm.

Ranged nightblade is where it is mainly because of a cloak and stealth playstyle. Cloak was and still is holding that setup back from getting buffs. If ranged magblade would reach high level of effectiveness and would have stealth playstyle on top of it, this would break PvP completly. Even right now the most abused version of the nb in PvP is a archer because how easier it is to play when You have range combined with cloak. Making nb kit to support that playstyle even more would be a horrible idea. The only way for ranged magblade to finally be decent is to first rebalance stealth playstyle completly.

Like I have said multiple times, Merciless Resolve damage POTENTIAL is to high. Either take away some of the damage multipliers that nb gets and buff up pressure abilities, or just simply lower the TT of merciless. These would be great idea, no Zos im not telling you what to do, its just an idea.

The bad thing about cloak, is Nightblade is the invisible class. The invisibility probably will forever be broken. I do think they should make it cost like 6k magicka or something. Or a 2 second cooldown starting after you leave sneak.

Buff dark cloak. Give more reasons to run a broken heal rather than stealth. Atleast you can still damage someone with dark cloak.

Merciless resolve wouldn't be an issue if stealth playstyle on nightblade would be properly designed.

There is multiple ways to balance cloak other than making it to cost 6k. Being invisibility class doesn't mean said invisibility should have close to zero drawbacks.

Problem is nightblade right now can run both broken heal and a cloak. It's really wierd approach to make second morph of ability broken just so first one would be used less. That clearely suggest first morph is broken and should be dealt with.

So if a brawler nightblade shoots you with a 20k+ bow, that's fine? But, if a ganker does it and cloaks away and full heals, that's not ok?

I'm just trying to understand, as everyone I know complains about bow.

Maybe your saying this, Nightblade has huge burst damage/burst heals/ and cloak. So take away cloak and burst heals, and then you have a balanced nightblade?

I can assure you, if people started running dark cloak it would be even harder to kill them, as Dark cloak would force nightblades to run higher health. So now you got a 40k hp nightblade that has 3k hps with one button. Plus burst heal.

Dark cloak+ vigor + Healthy = Unkillable.

People will find ways to survive they can even start slotting shade. But they still will have 2 shot potential. That means nightblade still killing ppl with ease.

Or I'm just completely wrong and everyone just annoyed by cloak users, and want the skills banned cause people don't like fighting it. That's a biased opinion.

First of all there is no such a thing as brawler nightblade hitting with 20k+ spectral bow. Every nightblade who lately pulls numbers like that on a spectral bow is playing with cloak. But even if that would be the case I would be completly fine with getting potentially hit with 20k spectral bow as long as I would be sure that nightblade I am fighting against won't just escape into cloak at any given time and complety disturb the flow of combat with that one move putting me at high disadventage and forcing me to put myself at even higher disadventage if I want to use half baked detection methods. These two situations are not even comparable, being able to hit for 20k out of nowhere and vanish right after is miles ahead of just being able to hit for 20k while continously in fight. There are setups on other classes that are also capable to burst You for 20k+ but to do this they need to usually make some special adjustments. Every nightblade on the other hand right now is basically a ganker as long as they have cloak. it's almost silly that one ability turns whole class no matter the build into different variations of one archetype.

I don't complain about bow. I don't have issues with it and in my opinion if stealth playstyle wouldn't be the way it is right now than bow wouldn't be complained as much as it is. Cloak allows nightblades to build way more offensively than many other setups and survive decently while being way more squishy than many other setups. With cloak put in place nightblades wouldn't be able to reach such high numbers on bow because they would have to start sacrificing dmg to compensate in other areas and if they would want to go full gank mode they would have to play high risk high reward type of playstyle instead of low risk high reward that current stealth playstyle offers. It's not a coincidence lately Cyrodill and IC are infested with nightblades and even if You fight with someone that isn't nightblade within couple of seconds some nightblade will join the fight. People complain a lot about tanky meta and how sturdy DK and warden are and how many of them there is in PvP but playing tanky brawler classes became only logical solution in the PvP infested with so many gankers that are way easier to play than most of the other setups.

Nightblades would become more tanky with dark cloak? So what? Here is a thing, no amount of healing can equal to 100% dmg reduction You get when You are out of enemy's sight. You dont need to heal if You don't take dmg. Nightblades being tanky but not being able to vanish on demand would still cause them to take more beating than when they just can vanish and stop taking the beating. That would force them to make different setup decisions than they are able to make right now. Within 3 seconds of taking the beating You would have to use way more resources than it cost You to vanish for 3 seconds right now.

The main reason for current nightblade killing potential is his ability to vanish and to balance nightblade that aspect should be targeted first. Nightblades would have to start using shade again? Nothing wrong in that. I would have no issues with nightblades being more tanky and still having high damage potential as long as they would have to be actually engaged in combat and follow the same rules of engagement as everyone else meaning that when You engage in combat You face the consequences.

I recall seeing a lot of Arcanist, DKs, and Stamsorcs in OW. Maybe your on a different server?

Zabagad

FoJul wrote: »

I recall seeing a lot of Arcanist, DKs, and Stamsorcs in OW. Maybe your on a different server?

Your Server does not exists!

I'm analyzing class numbers on PC/NA+EU for both CP-campaigns for over a year now and there is no server where NB is not (by far) the most played class.

Last campaign NB reached a new high with > 30% of all 7 classes and necro a new low with less then 3%.
DKs were over the last 3 month decreasing (surprise for me) from 20% to 13% and during the same time NB was increasing by almost the the difference.

Galeriano

FoJul wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

FoJul wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

FoJul wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

FoJul wrote: »

I Disagree. Nightblades aren't the best solo class for OW. They aren't the best dueling class. They aren't the best BG class. They aren't the best group support class. The only thing Nightblade shines in is ganking.

The hybrid blade has shot to S tier and back down to A tier where everything else is besides DK and Warden.

Ranged Magblade is the worst archetype in the game outside of both necros. Some would argue. Traditional Stamblade is also very mid compared to other classes.

Taking specific builds from build editor doesn't prove anything. I've seen these builds in action and I've used one of them before. And DK/rangeplar/warden and some proc stamsorcs have beaten these setups (Not just me).

The only thing that's outrageous is Merciless Resolve Damage potential and Cloak. As the rest of nightblade is easily counterable. And maybe Healthy offering potential.

In most cases you wont see anything above 12k Merciless resolves. Unless of course its an all damage Nightblade and he lands the full combo on you without you doing anything about it. Basically going limp will cause you to get 20k+ merciless'd. Or your attacking squishier targets that aren't familiar with PvP.

So 12k merciless' are fine. What's not fine is the damage potential on merciless. you can get the tooltip to read easily over 20k. In some cases even 40k on the tooltip alone. And the major bezerk in the melee spammable, the 20% vuln from incap, the debuffs, all of these things take skill and precision to apply to a target and land. Templar is a hard counter to this entire Combo. As you can purge just about 40% or a little more of raw damage multipliers.

Cleansing CP can clear the damage multipliers. Sets like maras/wyrd tree can also remove the damage multipliers. A simple timed roll dodge can evade damage. You add another roll dodge and you avoid the bow.

I will add that I am a little biased as I am a nightblade myself. But i can only defend my class so much. I hate the melee playstyle. I'm a rangeblade personally, and I don't get to see these high numbers almost never. So nerfing something because of 1 build potential isn't really balancing. It's just removing something people don't like fighting.

Fact that nb isn't the best at everything doesn't justify it being borderline broken at one specific thing. It's kinda an escape goat argument. By that logic we could break game balance completly and make every class highly overperforming in one specific task and say it's ok as long as it's not a number 1 at anything else. That's not how balance works.

I wouldnl't say everything except DK and watden is at A tier atm.

Ranged nightblade is where it is mainly because of a cloak and stealth playstyle. Cloak was and still is holding that setup back from getting buffs. If ranged magblade would reach high level of effectiveness and would have stealth playstyle on top of it, this would break PvP completly. Even right now the most abused version of the nb in PvP is a archer because how easier it is to play when You have range combined with cloak. Making nb kit to support that playstyle even more would be a horrible idea. The only way for ranged magblade to finally be decent is to first rebalance stealth playstyle completly.

Like I have said multiple times, Merciless Resolve damage POTENTIAL is to high. Either take away some of the damage multipliers that nb gets and buff up pressure abilities, or just simply lower the TT of merciless. These would be great idea, no Zos im not telling you what to do, its just an idea.

The bad thing about cloak, is Nightblade is the invisible class. The invisibility probably will forever be broken. I do think they should make it cost like 6k magicka or something. Or a 2 second cooldown starting after you leave sneak.

Buff dark cloak. Give more reasons to run a broken heal rather than stealth. Atleast you can still damage someone with dark cloak.

Merciless resolve wouldn't be an issue if stealth playstyle on nightblade would be properly designed.

There is multiple ways to balance cloak other than making it to cost 6k. Being invisibility class doesn't mean said invisibility should have close to zero drawbacks.

Problem is nightblade right now can run both broken heal and a cloak. It's really wierd approach to make second morph of ability broken just so first one would be used less. That clearely suggest first morph is broken and should be dealt with.

So if a brawler nightblade shoots you with a 20k+ bow, that's fine? But, if a ganker does it and cloaks away and full heals, that's not ok?

I'm just trying to understand, as everyone I know complains about bow.

Maybe your saying this, Nightblade has huge burst damage/burst heals/ and cloak. So take away cloak and burst heals, and then you have a balanced nightblade?

I can assure you, if people started running dark cloak it would be even harder to kill them, as Dark cloak would force nightblades to run higher health. So now you got a 40k hp nightblade that has 3k hps with one button. Plus burst heal.

Dark cloak+ vigor + Healthy = Unkillable.

People will find ways to survive they can even start slotting shade. But they still will have 2 shot potential. That means nightblade still killing ppl with ease.

Or I'm just completely wrong and everyone just annoyed by cloak users, and want the skills banned cause people don't like fighting it. That's a biased opinion.

First of all there is no such a thing as brawler nightblade hitting with 20k+ spectral bow. Every nightblade who lately pulls numbers like that on a spectral bow is playing with cloak. But even if that would be the case I would be completly fine with getting potentially hit with 20k spectral bow as long as I would be sure that nightblade I am fighting against won't just escape into cloak at any given time and complety disturb the flow of combat with that one move putting me at high disadventage and forcing me to put myself at even higher disadventage if I want to use half baked detection methods. These two situations are not even comparable, being able to hit for 20k out of nowhere and vanish right after is miles ahead of just being able to hit for 20k while continously in fight. There are setups on other classes that are also capable to burst You for 20k+ but to do this they need to usually make some special adjustments. Every nightblade on the other hand right now is basically a ganker as long as they have cloak. it's almost silly that one ability turns whole class no matter the build into different variations of one archetype.

I don't complain about bow. I don't have issues with it and in my opinion if stealth playstyle wouldn't be the way it is right now than bow wouldn't be complained as much as it is. Cloak allows nightblades to build way more offensively than many other setups and survive decently while being way more squishy than many other setups. With cloak put in place nightblades wouldn't be able to reach such high numbers on bow because they would have to start sacrificing dmg to compensate in other areas and if they would want to go full gank mode they would have to play high risk high reward type of playstyle instead of low risk high reward that current stealth playstyle offers. It's not a coincidence lately Cyrodill and IC are infested with nightblades and even if You fight with someone that isn't nightblade within couple of seconds some nightblade will join the fight. People complain a lot about tanky meta and how sturdy DK and warden are and how many of them there is in PvP but playing tanky brawler classes became only logical solution in the PvP infested with so many gankers that are way easier to play than most of the other setups.

Nightblades would become more tanky with dark cloak? So what? Here is a thing, no amount of healing can equal to 100% dmg reduction You get when You are out of enemy's sight. You dont need to heal if You don't take dmg. Nightblades being tanky but not being able to vanish on demand would still cause them to take more beating than when they just can vanish and stop taking the beating. That would force them to make different setup decisions than they are able to make right now. Within 3 seconds of taking the beating You would have to use way more resources than it cost You to vanish for 3 seconds right now.

The main reason for current nightblade killing potential is his ability to vanish and to balance nightblade that aspect should be targeted first. Nightblades would have to start using shade again? Nothing wrong in that. I would have no issues with nightblades being more tanky and still having high damage potential as long as they would have to be actually engaged in combat and follow the same rules of engagement as everyone else meaning that when You engage in combat You face the consequences.

I recall seeing a lot of Arcanist, DKs, and Stamsorcs in OW. Maybe your on a different server?

Maybe You see them because they don't have cloak to vanish from the eyesight. /s

There is no doubt though that nb is one of the most if not the most popular class in PvP.

Bushido2513

Zabagad wrote: »

FoJul wrote: »

I recall seeing a lot of Arcanist, DKs, and Stamsorcs in OW. Maybe your on a different server?

You Server does not exists!

I'm analyzing class numbers on PC/NA+EU for both CP-campaigns for over a year now and there is no server where NB is not (by far) the most played class.

Last campaign NB reached a new high with > 30% of all 7 classes and necro a new low with less then 3%.
DKs were over the last 3 month decreasing (surprise for me) from 20% to 13% and during the same time NB was increasing by almost the the difference.

Just to be clear are these numbers of your own creation or being published by ZOS? I only ask because there is a true number but it would vary from minute to minute depending on what class a person was logging on to at that time.


So if samples are only being taken at certain times then it could be a little skewed.

That being said I don't believe you're wrong at all. Kill enemy nbs is kill enemy players and I challenge anyone to take a sip of your favorite beverage every time a player attacks you from stealth lol.

IZZEFlameLash

Galeriano wrote: »

FoJul wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

FoJul wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

FoJul wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

FoJul wrote: »

I Disagree. Nightblades aren't the best solo class for OW. They aren't the best dueling class. They aren't the best BG class. They aren't the best group support class. The only thing Nightblade shines in is ganking.

The hybrid blade has shot to S tier and back down to A tier where everything else is besides DK and Warden.

Ranged Magblade is the worst archetype in the game outside of both necros. Some would argue. Traditional Stamblade is also very mid compared to other classes.

Taking specific builds from build editor doesn't prove anything. I've seen these builds in action and I've used one of them before. And DK/rangeplar/warden and some proc stamsorcs have beaten these setups (Not just me).

The only thing that's outrageous is Merciless Resolve Damage potential and Cloak. As the rest of nightblade is easily counterable. And maybe Healthy offering potential.

In most cases you wont see anything above 12k Merciless resolves. Unless of course its an all damage Nightblade and he lands the full combo on you without you doing anything about it. Basically going limp will cause you to get 20k+ merciless'd. Or your attacking squishier targets that aren't familiar with PvP.

So 12k merciless' are fine. What's not fine is the damage potential on merciless. you can get the tooltip to read easily over 20k. In some cases even 40k on the tooltip alone. And the major bezerk in the melee spammable, the 20% vuln from incap, the debuffs, all of these things take skill and precision to apply to a target and land. Templar is a hard counter to this entire Combo. As you can purge just about 40% or a little more of raw damage multipliers.

Cleansing CP can clear the damage multipliers. Sets like maras/wyrd tree can also remove the damage multipliers. A simple timed roll dodge can evade damage. You add another roll dodge and you avoid the bow.

I will add that I am a little biased as I am a nightblade myself. But i can only defend my class so much. I hate the melee playstyle. I'm a rangeblade personally, and I don't get to see these high numbers almost never. So nerfing something because of 1 build potential isn't really balancing. It's just removing something people don't like fighting.

Fact that nb isn't the best at everything doesn't justify it being borderline broken at one specific thing. It's kinda an escape goat argument. By that logic we could break game balance completly and make every class highly overperforming in one specific task and say it's ok as long as it's not a number 1 at anything else. That's not how balance works.

I wouldnl't say everything except DK and watden is at A tier atm.

Ranged nightblade is where it is mainly because of a cloak and stealth playstyle. Cloak was and still is holding that setup back from getting buffs. If ranged magblade would reach high level of effectiveness and would have stealth playstyle on top of it, this would break PvP completly. Even right now the most abused version of the nb in PvP is a archer because how easier it is to play when You have range combined with cloak. Making nb kit to support that playstyle even more would be a horrible idea. The only way for ranged magblade to finally be decent is to first rebalance stealth playstyle completly.

Like I have said multiple times, Merciless Resolve damage POTENTIAL is to high. Either take away some of the damage multipliers that nb gets and buff up pressure abilities, or just simply lower the TT of merciless. These would be great idea, no Zos im not telling you what to do, its just an idea.

The bad thing about cloak, is Nightblade is the invisible class. The invisibility probably will forever be broken. I do think they should make it cost like 6k magicka or something. Or a 2 second cooldown starting after you leave sneak.

Buff dark cloak. Give more reasons to run a broken heal rather than stealth. Atleast you can still damage someone with dark cloak.

Merciless resolve wouldn't be an issue if stealth playstyle on nightblade would be properly designed.

There is multiple ways to balance cloak other than making it to cost 6k. Being invisibility class doesn't mean said invisibility should have close to zero drawbacks.

Problem is nightblade right now can run both broken heal and a cloak. It's really wierd approach to make second morph of ability broken just so first one would be used less. That clearely suggest first morph is broken and should be dealt with.

So if a brawler nightblade shoots you with a 20k+ bow, that's fine? But, if a ganker does it and cloaks away and full heals, that's not ok?

I'm just trying to understand, as everyone I know complains about bow.

Maybe your saying this, Nightblade has huge burst damage/burst heals/ and cloak. So take away cloak and burst heals, and then you have a balanced nightblade?

I can assure you, if people started running dark cloak it would be even harder to kill them, as Dark cloak would force nightblades to run higher health. So now you got a 40k hp nightblade that has 3k hps with one button. Plus burst heal.

Dark cloak+ vigor + Healthy = Unkillable.

People will find ways to survive they can even start slotting shade. But they still will have 2 shot potential. That means nightblade still killing ppl with ease.

Or I'm just completely wrong and everyone just annoyed by cloak users, and want the skills banned cause people don't like fighting it. That's a biased opinion.

First of all there is no such a thing as brawler nightblade hitting with 20k+ spectral bow. Every nightblade who lately pulls numbers like that on a spectral bow is playing with cloak. But even if that would be the case I would be completly fine with getting potentially hit with 20k spectral bow as long as I would be sure that nightblade I am fighting against won't just escape into cloak at any given time and complety disturb the flow of combat with that one move putting me at high disadventage and forcing me to put myself at even higher disadventage if I want to use half baked detection methods. These two situations are not even comparable, being able to hit for 20k out of nowhere and vanish right after is miles ahead of just being able to hit for 20k while continously in fight. There are setups on other classes that are also capable to burst You for 20k+ but to do this they need to usually make some special adjustments. Every nightblade on the other hand right now is basically a ganker as long as they have cloak. it's almost silly that one ability turns whole class no matter the build into different variations of one archetype.

I don't complain about bow. I don't have issues with it and in my opinion if stealth playstyle wouldn't be the way it is right now than bow wouldn't be complained as much as it is. Cloak allows nightblades to build way more offensively than many other setups and survive decently while being way more squishy than many other setups. With cloak put in place nightblades wouldn't be able to reach such high numbers on bow because they would have to start sacrificing dmg to compensate in other areas and if they would want to go full gank mode they would have to play high risk high reward type of playstyle instead of low risk high reward that current stealth playstyle offers. It's not a coincidence lately Cyrodill and IC are infested with nightblades and even if You fight with someone that isn't nightblade within couple of seconds some nightblade will join the fight. People complain a lot about tanky meta and how sturdy DK and warden are and how many of them there is in PvP but playing tanky brawler classes became only logical solution in the PvP infested with so many gankers that are way easier to play than most of the other setups.

Nightblades would become more tanky with dark cloak? So what? Here is a thing, no amount of healing can equal to 100% dmg reduction You get when You are out of enemy's sight. You dont need to heal if You don't take dmg. Nightblades being tanky but not being able to vanish on demand would still cause them to take more beating than when they just can vanish and stop taking the beating. That would force them to make different setup decisions than they are able to make right now. Within 3 seconds of taking the beating You would have to use way more resources than it cost You to vanish for 3 seconds right now.

The main reason for current nightblade killing potential is his ability to vanish and to balance nightblade that aspect should be targeted first. Nightblades would have to start using shade again? Nothing wrong in that. I would have no issues with nightblades being more tanky and still having high damage potential as long as they would have to be actually engaged in combat and follow the same rules of engagement as everyone else meaning that when You engage in combat You face the consequences.

I recall seeing a lot of Arcanist, DKs, and Stamsorcs in OW. Maybe your on a different server?

Maybe You see them because they don't have cloak to vanish from the eyesight. /s

There is no doubt though that nb is one of the most if not the most popular class in PvP.

Lol the rate at kill 20 NBs gets completed is basically the same as kill 20 players if you were to just sit in a large battle site and tag everyone once. Other classes take longer, even DKs and Wardens.

Turtle_Bot

Bushido2513 wrote: »

That being said I don't believe you're wrong at all. Kill enemy nbs is kill enemy players and I challenge anyone to take a sip of your favorite beverage every time a player attacks you from stealth lol.

Please remember to drink responsibly.

TechMaybeHic

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

FoJul wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

FoJul wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

FoJul wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

FoJul wrote: »

I Disagree. Nightblades aren't the best solo class for OW. They aren't the best dueling class. They aren't the best BG class. They aren't the best group support class. The only thing Nightblade shines in is ganking.

The hybrid blade has shot to S tier and back down to A tier where everything else is besides DK and Warden.

Ranged Magblade is the worst archetype in the game outside of both necros. Some would argue. Traditional Stamblade is also very mid compared to other classes.

Taking specific builds from build editor doesn't prove anything. I've seen these builds in action and I've used one of them before. And DK/rangeplar/warden and some proc stamsorcs have beaten these setups (Not just me).

The only thing that's outrageous is Merciless Resolve Damage potential and Cloak. As the rest of nightblade is easily counterable. And maybe Healthy offering potential.

In most cases you wont see anything above 12k Merciless resolves. Unless of course its an all damage Nightblade and he lands the full combo on you without you doing anything about it. Basically going limp will cause you to get 20k+ merciless'd. Or your attacking squishier targets that aren't familiar with PvP.

So 12k merciless' are fine. What's not fine is the damage potential on merciless. you can get the tooltip to read easily over 20k. In some cases even 40k on the tooltip alone. And the major bezerk in the melee spammable, the 20% vuln from incap, the debuffs, all of these things take skill and precision to apply to a target and land. Templar is a hard counter to this entire Combo. As you can purge just about 40% or a little more of raw damage multipliers.

Cleansing CP can clear the damage multipliers. Sets like maras/wyrd tree can also remove the damage multipliers. A simple timed roll dodge can evade damage. You add another roll dodge and you avoid the bow.

I will add that I am a little biased as I am a nightblade myself. But i can only defend my class so much. I hate the melee playstyle. I'm a rangeblade personally, and I don't get to see these high numbers almost never. So nerfing something because of 1 build potential isn't really balancing. It's just removing something people don't like fighting.

Fact that nb isn't the best at everything doesn't justify it being borderline broken at one specific thing. It's kinda an escape goat argument. By that logic we could break game balance completly and make every class highly overperforming in one specific task and say it's ok as long as it's not a number 1 at anything else. That's not how balance works.

I wouldnl't say everything except DK and watden is at A tier atm.

Ranged nightblade is where it is mainly because of a cloak and stealth playstyle. Cloak was and still is holding that setup back from getting buffs. If ranged magblade would reach high level of effectiveness and would have stealth playstyle on top of it, this would break PvP completly. Even right now the most abused version of the nb in PvP is a archer because how easier it is to play when You have range combined with cloak. Making nb kit to support that playstyle even more would be a horrible idea. The only way for ranged magblade to finally be decent is to first rebalance stealth playstyle completly.

Like I have said multiple times, Merciless Resolve damage POTENTIAL is to high. Either take away some of the damage multipliers that nb gets and buff up pressure abilities, or just simply lower the TT of merciless. These would be great idea, no Zos im not telling you what to do, its just an idea.

The bad thing about cloak, is Nightblade is the invisible class. The invisibility probably will forever be broken. I do think they should make it cost like 6k magicka or something. Or a 2 second cooldown starting after you leave sneak.

Buff dark cloak. Give more reasons to run a broken heal rather than stealth. Atleast you can still damage someone with dark cloak.

Merciless resolve wouldn't be an issue if stealth playstyle on nightblade would be properly designed.

There is multiple ways to balance cloak other than making it to cost 6k. Being invisibility class doesn't mean said invisibility should have close to zero drawbacks.

Problem is nightblade right now can run both broken heal and a cloak. It's really wierd approach to make second morph of ability broken just so first one would be used less. That clearely suggest first morph is broken and should be dealt with.

So if a brawler nightblade shoots you with a 20k+ bow, that's fine? But, if a ganker does it and cloaks away and full heals, that's not ok?

I'm just trying to understand, as everyone I know complains about bow.

Maybe your saying this, Nightblade has huge burst damage/burst heals/ and cloak. So take away cloak and burst heals, and then you have a balanced nightblade?

I can assure you, if people started running dark cloak it would be even harder to kill them, as Dark cloak would force nightblades to run higher health. So now you got a 40k hp nightblade that has 3k hps with one button. Plus burst heal.

Dark cloak+ vigor + Healthy = Unkillable.

People will find ways to survive they can even start slotting shade. But they still will have 2 shot potential. That means nightblade still killing ppl with ease.

Or I'm just completely wrong and everyone just annoyed by cloak users, and want the skills banned cause people don't like fighting it. That's a biased opinion.

First of all there is no such a thing as brawler nightblade hitting with 20k+ spectral bow. Every nightblade who lately pulls numbers like that on a spectral bow is playing with cloak. But even if that would be the case I would be completly fine with getting potentially hit with 20k spectral bow as long as I would be sure that nightblade I am fighting against won't just escape into cloak at any given time and complety disturb the flow of combat with that one move putting me at high disadventage and forcing me to put myself at even higher disadventage if I want to use half baked detection methods. These two situations are not even comparable, being able to hit for 20k out of nowhere and vanish right after is miles ahead of just being able to hit for 20k while continously in fight. There are setups on other classes that are also capable to burst You for 20k+ but to do this they need to usually make some special adjustments. Every nightblade on the other hand right now is basically a ganker as long as they have cloak. it's almost silly that one ability turns whole class no matter the build into different variations of one archetype.

I don't complain about bow. I don't have issues with it and in my opinion if stealth playstyle wouldn't be the way it is right now than bow wouldn't be complained as much as it is. Cloak allows nightblades to build way more offensively than many other setups and survive decently while being way more squishy than many other setups. With cloak put in place nightblades wouldn't be able to reach such high numbers on bow because they would have to start sacrificing dmg to compensate in other areas and if they would want to go full gank mode they would have to play high risk high reward type of playstyle instead of low risk high reward that current stealth playstyle offers. It's not a coincidence lately Cyrodill and IC are infested with nightblades and even if You fight with someone that isn't nightblade within couple of seconds some nightblade will join the fight. People complain a lot about tanky meta and how sturdy DK and warden are and how many of them there is in PvP but playing tanky brawler classes became only logical solution in the PvP infested with so many gankers that are way easier to play than most of the other setups.

Nightblades would become more tanky with dark cloak? So what? Here is a thing, no amount of healing can equal to 100% dmg reduction You get when You are out of enemy's sight. You dont need to heal if You don't take dmg. Nightblades being tanky but not being able to vanish on demand would still cause them to take more beating than when they just can vanish and stop taking the beating. That would force them to make different setup decisions than they are able to make right now. Within 3 seconds of taking the beating You would have to use way more resources than it cost You to vanish for 3 seconds right now.

The main reason for current nightblade killing potential is his ability to vanish and to balance nightblade that aspect should be targeted first. Nightblades would have to start using shade again? Nothing wrong in that. I would have no issues with nightblades being more tanky and still having high damage potential as long as they would have to be actually engaged in combat and follow the same rules of engagement as everyone else meaning that when You engage in combat You face the consequences.

I recall seeing a lot of Arcanist, DKs, and Stamsorcs in OW. Maybe your on a different server?

Maybe You see them because they don't have cloak to vanish from the eyesight. /s

There is no doubt though that nb is one of the most if not the most popular class in PvP.

Lol the rate at kill 20 NBs gets completed is basically the same as kill 20 players if you were to just sit in a large battle site and tag everyone once. Other classes take longer, even DKs and Wardens.

I think the NB rerolls are just easier to kill. Any of them decent though, and the counter would not go up so fast. They are just too fast, invisible, have a teleport they know how to use, and have as good of heals as everyone including tied to their biggest hitters.

Im still playing NB myself. I mean, why not? I can gank, brawl, heal, or group bomb. To varying degrees on al without having to focus on one, or among the best with just a little focus.

Zabagad

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Just to be clear are these numbers of your own creation or being published by ZOS?

The answer was already inside
"I'm analyzing"...
Zos is not providing anything like this to us

IZZEFlameLash

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

FoJul wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

FoJul wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

FoJul wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

FoJul wrote: »

I Disagree. Nightblades aren't the best solo class for OW. They aren't the best dueling class. They aren't the best BG class. They aren't the best group support class. The only thing Nightblade shines in is ganking.

The hybrid blade has shot to S tier and back down to A tier where everything else is besides DK and Warden.

Ranged Magblade is the worst archetype in the game outside of both necros. Some would argue. Traditional Stamblade is also very mid compared to other classes.

Taking specific builds from build editor doesn't prove anything. I've seen these builds in action and I've used one of them before. And DK/rangeplar/warden and some proc stamsorcs have beaten these setups (Not just me).

The only thing that's outrageous is Merciless Resolve Damage potential and Cloak. As the rest of nightblade is easily counterable. And maybe Healthy offering potential.

In most cases you wont see anything above 12k Merciless resolves. Unless of course its an all damage Nightblade and he lands the full combo on you without you doing anything about it. Basically going limp will cause you to get 20k+ merciless'd. Or your attacking squishier targets that aren't familiar with PvP.

So 12k merciless' are fine. What's not fine is the damage potential on merciless. you can get the tooltip to read easily over 20k. In some cases even 40k on the tooltip alone. And the major bezerk in the melee spammable, the 20% vuln from incap, the debuffs, all of these things take skill and precision to apply to a target and land. Templar is a hard counter to this entire Combo. As you can purge just about 40% or a little more of raw damage multipliers.

Cleansing CP can clear the damage multipliers. Sets like maras/wyrd tree can also remove the damage multipliers. A simple timed roll dodge can evade damage. You add another roll dodge and you avoid the bow.

I will add that I am a little biased as I am a nightblade myself. But i can only defend my class so much. I hate the melee playstyle. I'm a rangeblade personally, and I don't get to see these high numbers almost never. So nerfing something because of 1 build potential isn't really balancing. It's just removing something people don't like fighting.

Fact that nb isn't the best at everything doesn't justify it being borderline broken at one specific thing. It's kinda an escape goat argument. By that logic we could break game balance completly and make every class highly overperforming in one specific task and say it's ok as long as it's not a number 1 at anything else. That's not how balance works.

I wouldnl't say everything except DK and watden is at A tier atm.

Ranged nightblade is where it is mainly because of a cloak and stealth playstyle. Cloak was and still is holding that setup back from getting buffs. If ranged magblade would reach high level of effectiveness and would have stealth playstyle on top of it, this would break PvP completly. Even right now the most abused version of the nb in PvP is a archer because how easier it is to play when You have range combined with cloak. Making nb kit to support that playstyle even more would be a horrible idea. The only way for ranged magblade to finally be decent is to first rebalance stealth playstyle completly.

Like I have said multiple times, Merciless Resolve damage POTENTIAL is to high. Either take away some of the damage multipliers that nb gets and buff up pressure abilities, or just simply lower the TT of merciless. These would be great idea, no Zos im not telling you what to do, its just an idea.

The bad thing about cloak, is Nightblade is the invisible class. The invisibility probably will forever be broken. I do think they should make it cost like 6k magicka or something. Or a 2 second cooldown starting after you leave sneak.

Buff dark cloak. Give more reasons to run a broken heal rather than stealth. Atleast you can still damage someone with dark cloak.

Merciless resolve wouldn't be an issue if stealth playstyle on nightblade would be properly designed.

There is multiple ways to balance cloak other than making it to cost 6k. Being invisibility class doesn't mean said invisibility should have close to zero drawbacks.

Problem is nightblade right now can run both broken heal and a cloak. It's really wierd approach to make second morph of ability broken just so first one would be used less. That clearely suggest first morph is broken and should be dealt with.

So if a brawler nightblade shoots you with a 20k+ bow, that's fine? But, if a ganker does it and cloaks away and full heals, that's not ok?

I'm just trying to understand, as everyone I know complains about bow.

Maybe your saying this, Nightblade has huge burst damage/burst heals/ and cloak. So take away cloak and burst heals, and then you have a balanced nightblade?

I can assure you, if people started running dark cloak it would be even harder to kill them, as Dark cloak would force nightblades to run higher health. So now you got a 40k hp nightblade that has 3k hps with one button. Plus burst heal.

Dark cloak+ vigor + Healthy = Unkillable.

People will find ways to survive they can even start slotting shade. But they still will have 2 shot potential. That means nightblade still killing ppl with ease.

Or I'm just completely wrong and everyone just annoyed by cloak users, and want the skills banned cause people don't like fighting it. That's a biased opinion.

First of all there is no such a thing as brawler nightblade hitting with 20k+ spectral bow. Every nightblade who lately pulls numbers like that on a spectral bow is playing with cloak. But even if that would be the case I would be completly fine with getting potentially hit with 20k spectral bow as long as I would be sure that nightblade I am fighting against won't just escape into cloak at any given time and complety disturb the flow of combat with that one move putting me at high disadventage and forcing me to put myself at even higher disadventage if I want to use half baked detection methods. These two situations are not even comparable, being able to hit for 20k out of nowhere and vanish right after is miles ahead of just being able to hit for 20k while continously in fight. There are setups on other classes that are also capable to burst You for 20k+ but to do this they need to usually make some special adjustments. Every nightblade on the other hand right now is basically a ganker as long as they have cloak. it's almost silly that one ability turns whole class no matter the build into different variations of one archetype.

I don't complain about bow. I don't have issues with it and in my opinion if stealth playstyle wouldn't be the way it is right now than bow wouldn't be complained as much as it is. Cloak allows nightblades to build way more offensively than many other setups and survive decently while being way more squishy than many other setups. With cloak put in place nightblades wouldn't be able to reach such high numbers on bow because they would have to start sacrificing dmg to compensate in other areas and if they would want to go full gank mode they would have to play high risk high reward type of playstyle instead of low risk high reward that current stealth playstyle offers. It's not a coincidence lately Cyrodill and IC are infested with nightblades and even if You fight with someone that isn't nightblade within couple of seconds some nightblade will join the fight. People complain a lot about tanky meta and how sturdy DK and warden are and how many of them there is in PvP but playing tanky brawler classes became only logical solution in the PvP infested with so many gankers that are way easier to play than most of the other setups.

Nightblades would become more tanky with dark cloak? So what? Here is a thing, no amount of healing can equal to 100% dmg reduction You get when You are out of enemy's sight. You dont need to heal if You don't take dmg. Nightblades being tanky but not being able to vanish on demand would still cause them to take more beating than when they just can vanish and stop taking the beating. That would force them to make different setup decisions than they are able to make right now. Within 3 seconds of taking the beating You would have to use way more resources than it cost You to vanish for 3 seconds right now.

The main reason for current nightblade killing potential is his ability to vanish and to balance nightblade that aspect should be targeted first. Nightblades would have to start using shade again? Nothing wrong in that. I would have no issues with nightblades being more tanky and still having high damage potential as long as they would have to be actually engaged in combat and follow the same rules of engagement as everyone else meaning that when You engage in combat You face the consequences.

I recall seeing a lot of Arcanist, DKs, and Stamsorcs in OW. Maybe your on a different server?

Maybe You see them because they don't have cloak to vanish from the eyesight. /s

There is no doubt though that nb is one of the most if not the most popular class in PvP.

Lol the rate at kill 20 NBs gets completed is basically the same as kill 20 players if you were to just sit in a large battle site and tag everyone once. Other classes take longer, even DKs and Wardens.

I think the NB rerolls are just easier to kill. Any of them decent though, and the counter would not go up so fast. They are just too fast, invisible, have a teleport they know how to use, and have as good of heals as everyone including tied to their biggest hitters.

Im still playing NB myself. I mean, why not? I can gank, brawl, heal, or group bomb. To varying degrees on al without having to focus on one, or among the best with just a little focus.

Yeah, if I could get into NB, I would be playing NB. The class just doesn't feel right for me no matter what I do despite the class essentially being what one could hope for. Only time NB felt right was when there were barely any magblades.

CrazyKitty

I'd feel like I was cheating if I played NB. And I have two fully leveled NB's being used as mules right now.

Zabulus

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

30k+ single hits with Merciless, from stealth, is obscene and ZOS needs to answer for their refusal to balance the game. It is simply unacceptable and insulting that this one class is allowed to overperform to such an absurd degree especially with other classes like Sorc are so completely neglected. @ZOS_GinaBruno, ZOS must address this.

Excuse me : i made a 170K stealth merciless. And the other night 297K ! when i was dreaming ...

DrNukenstein

Meanwhile a Sorc hit me with snipe, power overload, crystal weapon, and poison injection all at the same time. Then they did it again.

Bushido2513

DrNukenstein wrote: »

Meanwhile a Sorc hit me with snipe, power overload, crystal weapon, and poison injection all at the same time. Then they did it again.

Would still want to see the apm vs standard NB combo. The cheese comes in many flavors with one key difference being ease of access and use.

OBJnoob

DrNukenstein wrote: »

Meanwhile a Sorc hit me with snipe, power overload, crystal weapon, and poison injection all at the same time. Then they did it again.

Super telegraphed and you can roll dodge all of it. That's what you'd say if I was complaining about a NB combo, right?

Even more telegraphed when it comes from a visible enemy I would assume.

The sorc is actually using abilities and lining up burst. It takes 3 or 4 cooldowns for all of that to happen, whether it hits you in 1 or not.

Also, the sorc doesn't have a burst heal. So many key differences here.

DrNukenstein

OBJnoob wrote: »

Super telegraphed and you can roll dodge all of it. That's what you'd say if I was complaining about a NB combo, right?

Even more telegraphed when it comes from a visible enemy I would assume.

The sorc is actually using abilities and lining up burst. It takes 3 or 4 cooldowns for all of that to happen, whether it hits you in 1 or not.

Also, the sorc doesn't have a burst heal. So many key differences here.

Except here's the thing. They did it from 30+ meters while I was fighting someone else. Each of those abilities could be used repeatedly meaning they could do that combo every 3 seconds if they wanted, that's less time than it takes for roll penalty to reset. And if anyone went after them, they would streak to safety while potentially taxing the pursuers stam with a guaranteed stun cooked into their mobility.

What I'm getting at is what sorc is capable of is every bit as obnoxious and tedious to play around, arguably more so because it's more spammable, and less punishable because there is no positional commitment. If it's not okay to play stealth melee, then it's not okay to play like that.

DrNukenstein

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Would still want to see the apm vs standard NB combo. The cheese comes in many flavors with one key difference being ease of access and use.

Ease of access and use? You mean like a true one shot combo with burst and execute in the same second that can be spammed every 3 seconds and used from range?

APM like skill (before combo)>skill>light attack>skill>optional streak/roll to safety?