The Day ESO Dies

Deltia

Hello ESO Forums,

I posted this on my website but I know ZOS reads these forums so I figured I'd share my thoughts here. I'm one person the sea of awesome people that love this game. With the announcement of increase in Veteran Ranks I'd like to leave my feedback whether you agree or not. And here's what I have to say about the problem and fixing it.

Before I start I want to make clear where my opinions come from. I make my living playing THIS video game only. Not only that, but it's my primary means of socialization. Over the past two years (including beta), I've been infatuated with the idea of a multiplayer Elder Scrolls Game. Not to mention the help that ZOS has personally given me. I still love ESO, but I'm not going to blindly follow a games growth that does not fit my needs. Just realize the passion I have for this game, it's community and developers runs deep.

VR 16?

Within the same breath, Eric Wrobel said they still have long term plans of removing Veteran Ranks (VR), but for the new content they are increasing it by two thus making end game VR 16. At this point, I think it's clear that Veteran Ranks aren't going away, ANYTIME in the future. I have eight VR 14s and the problem I have with this isn't the time investment to re-level all those characters, or the fully legendary gear, but the constant deception about not adding more Veteran Ranks. We as customers have a right to voice or opinions and/or a right to stop being customers. For me, it's time to pick one and voicing seems to be the best option.

I have defended their decisions as a business model constantly but this is one I cannot ignore. Adding Veteran Ranks is not content, it's busy work. Content is intractable quest, dungeon diving finding worthwhile rewards with friends, a working PvP system giving flexibility and choices. Yes, I know Imperial City is coming with this additional Veteran Ranks, but why increase the cap? "Deltia to increase the contents difficulty," well that's true in most MMOs but not ESO and that's due to the Champion System.

Champion Progression

Most games have a level cap that once reached, one works on optimizing gear and your individual skill for increased performance. However, ESO has the Champion System rendering time in game collecting XP as account progression. So take the most skilled PvPer in the world (let's say Sypher) vs. someone with 1,000 more champion points. Skill is irreverent at this point. Thus removing one of the core reasons I play MMOs and video games alike. Busy work trumps constantly improving yourself. Grinding mobs and CP is the new meta, not skill.

Take another game for instance, you have fully maxed out gear and have been playing for four years. Once a level increase hits, most players will be on an even playing field in terms of gear. So, there is some possibility of catching up to those folks that spend eight hours a day in game. Not ESO, there is no Champion Point catch up mechanic. The person at level 10 might be more powerful than someone at VR14 due to CP. Without a catch up mechanic or a way to limit zombie grinding macros and bots, you'll have a runaway performance gap the size the Grand Canyon.
The Fix

Someone like me benefits significantly from the Champion System. Having alts, grinding mobs and skills, etc just makes me VERY powerful. But it does not help new players, inexperienced ones nor the overall game. My good friend Parfax had an excellent suggestion, simply have seasons for Champion Points. Meaning, every three months or so, you could gain 100 CP. Once you reach that number, you have to wait for the reset. No more 100 v 1,000 CP fights. If that doesn't work, why not make CP have diminishing returns? So the first 300 are very easy to obtain, but everything beyond that is harder (similar to Alliance Ranks).

I'm all for account wide progression, but at what cost? At the cost that people grinding zombies ultimately win? At the cost that skill and performance are removed out of the game? I want to one day challenge Sypher in PvP without out grinding him. With skill, learning, getting my face kicked in by him over and over just to beat him one day with pure skill. Until this changes, the easier way for me to beat him is out grind him. Obtain such a mathematical advantage that no amount of skill can compensate. And that is the day that ESO dies.

Why I Give a ****

No I do not plan on leaving the game. I still love the combat, the people and the developers. But I'm no longer a bushy eyed fan-boy. I don't want to leave this game, this is my absolute favorite thing to do (well besides you know what). I've have (not had) such an emotional attachment to the land of Tamriel that I won't let it go just yet. But I'm not going to sit back and let another level increase happen without a true fix to the underlying problem, the Champion System.

sztartureb17_ESO

Respect.

NotSo

Once 1/2 of the player base has grinded up to 3600 cp, then they might nerf it.

pmn100b16_ESO

Nice to see you taking this stand Deltia. I left the game when 1.6 hit because of the champion system which, along with b2p and the crown store, is just a way for Zen to cash in on xp pots. I bet the champion system wouldn't even exist if we stayed p2p.

Zheg

This will be the third level cap raise in about a year and a half. Even with all of the issues of veteran levels and XP in general with the game, and the way that the playerbase feels about them, the fact that they plan on raising the level cap this many times in this short a time period demonstrates utter incompetence. There is simply no need for it. They can release small content updates without forcing us to grind more xp (and completely sunsetting our prior gear) for no purpose other than a false sense of accomplishment and progression.

I know they're new to mmorpgs, but one would think even a modicum of common sense would be considered when making decisions like this. The cherry on top is not only do they make these absurd decisions, they insist on maintaining abysmal communication. Even the community managers seem to be useless of late, which is truly unfortunate given how good they were at addressing player feedback early on in the game's life. Rich's /lurk spree is the most action we've seen in a while, and that says a lot.

BrightnessSyl

Pinklatex here!

I've talked extensively with Deltia, Mav and Sypher about this. I am in full agreement on just about everything. While I don't generally have a problem with adding more vet ranks I do understand why many end game PVP players with legendary gear take issue with it. My major gripe is Champ points and the imbalance created by them. Deltia has put this in terms that I feel ring true for about 90% of the player base. I'd love to see the developers really look at this and take it in as it's true and heartfelt. WE love this game it's a huge part of our lives and we want it to stick around, I'd play it forever happily if I felt that we your core (the people playing since day 1, who eat sleep and breathe this game) were taken into account when moving ahead with development. A focus group with your streamers is in order. It's time to bring us back into the fold because we as adults will give you honest real feedback.

Thank you Deltia!!!!

Sypher

I have gone against players who have double/triple my champion points (I currently have ~300) and can confirm that the imbalance is extreme and will only get worse.

This also applies to PVE, once a group of players with high CP get together they will start breaking leaderboards with their mathematical advantage and newer players or players who don't grind out CP will be left in the dirt.

As a player with 5 vet accounts and 6th one in the works, my distaste for v16 is pretty obvious.


Speak up folks.

Blobsky

Every gain changes levels as it goes. Nothing but to train. The real problem is CP, not the VR increase (Yes they promised it, but almost every game imaginable, business imaginable, and DEFINATELY politics say they will do something and never do. They just simply think the level change keeps people having something to do in the game - Which I won't complain about AS LONG AS THERE IS NEW CONTENT. No new content then its just pointless grind

Sithisvoid

Kinda started to die for me when i tuned into a streamers' channel and he was hating on a race so much he was singing "ain't no Nord in my blood"

pmn100b16_ESO

Sypher wrote: »

I have gone against players who have double/triple my champion points (I currently have ~300) and can confirm that the imbalance is extreme and will only get worse.

This also applies to PVE, once a group of players with high CP get together they will start breaking leaderboards with their mathematical advantage and newer players or players who don't grind out CP will be left in the dirt.

As a player with 5 vet accounts and 6th one in the works, my distaste for v16 is pretty obvious.


Speak up folks.

But fanbois tell us no one has over 600 champ points and diminishing returns makes it all negligible anyway.

Xendyn

Nice wake up call, I hope they listen.
I'm not a "well-known" player, streamer or anything, just a plain ol joe but I've been here the whole time, subbed until I let it run out in May.

We saw a vision for a game that was different, that's why we came and that's why we've stayed this long. The vision was beautiful, the game still is beautiful, but the management of it is becoming a nightmare.

Listen up ZOS, you are at the point where you could have it all or lose it all.

Choose wisely
We still want the vision.

Azalin76

I agree with you, I love this game but the direction they are heading is all over the place and no one can keep up or figure out how to play the game anymore. The addition of champion points was great for a casual player like me...at first. Now that I have seen the system in action I realize that I am so far behind the curve that I will never catch up and be able to be as good as the players who are much farther ahead of me. I stopped playing for about 2 months before console came out because I had 2 VR14 toons and I got there with them before I really knew how to play the game and now don't like to play them because of all the changes that were made, especially to races. Once consoles were released I started over and am now working through my vet ranks again and it feels like it's taking forever and I feel I will never reach end game because it feels so far away. I was hoping they would do away with vet ranks before consoles were released (which would have made more sense) but now they are adding 2 more vet ranks which will make it even longer before I can reach end game. I think at this point they should just leave vet ranks in the game but lower the xp needed to gain a rank (I know they already have because I remember having to grind through 14 million xp to reach one rank at one point). If they lower the xp and make it more progressive like leveling from 1-49 (I say 49 because there is no lvl 50) then people will actually be able to reach end game and actually be able to enjoy the game instead of leveling mindlessly through 13 million xp to reach vr 14.

Swannkyy

I think they could fix the champion system by making it so that it goes to a max of 10% instead of 25%. (although removing it all together sounds hell of a lot better to me, considering it's the reason a lot of my friends quit playing.)

Sigtric

As someone who has played the game since early access and whose highest character is VR8, I am pretty much indifferent to what the max level is. As long as I have some sort of nugget in the distance to work towards I am fine.

That said:
If VR is going to remain/be increased, there needs to be content to support it. There should be enough PVE content to go from lvl 1 to VR16 with out ever having to repeat (dailies) or grind mobs.

For me... the real issue is the Champion Points system. I get a few hours a day, if I am lucky and I like to take my time and enjoy everything the game has to offer at my own pace. This includes going into Cyro, but already due to my lower CP count I am at a severe disadvantage. This is what is going to break the game and make it unplayable for people who are new to the game, months down the road.

Rhakon

here is a good idea for a CS solution!

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/190525/best-idea-for-cs-gap-problem-thx-to-rune-relic#latest

easy and direct fair and rewarding

Junipus

If someone can link the forum mods into this, with so many big and influential names throwing their voices into the ring that should make ZOS look at further internal discussions on whether VR16 is the best choice for their future.

BrightnessSyl

Sith is funny. Go nords go. See? I fixed it

Sithisvoid

BrightnessSyl wrote: »

Sithisvoid wrote: »

Kinda started to die for me when i tuned into a streamers' channel and he was hating on a race so much he was singing "ain't no Nord in my blood"

Sithisvoid clearly that was a joke, humor is always needed when streaming. This has nothing to do with that. DO you play the game? Do you care about the changes? Put personal views toward a streamer aside and fight for your game.

I don't see anything wrong with VR16 or Champion points. MMO's raise level cap. Champion points keep people playing the game. Plus what kind of backlash would erupt if they removed them? The people who spent hour upon hour grinding will suddenly leave the mobs and return the the forum in Frankenstein mob form.

Oh and the Nord comment was kind of a joke srry doesn't translate well over the net.

Xendyn

I can do that
@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_RichLambert come /lurk in here
(apparently Eric isn't on here)

Mr_Bubbely

Sithisvoid wrote: »

BrightnessSyl wrote: »

Sithisvoid wrote: »

Kinda started to die for me when i tuned into a streamers' channel and he was hating on a race so much he was singing "ain't no Nord in my blood"

Sithisvoid clearly that was a joke, humor is always needed when streaming. This has nothing to do with that. DO you play the game? Do you care about the changes? Put personal views toward a streamer aside and fight for your game.

I don't see anything wrong with VR16 or Champion points. MMO's raise level cap. Champion points keep people playing the game. Plus what kind of backlash would erupt if they removed them? The people who spent hour upon hour grinding will suddenly leave the mobs and return the the forum in Frankenstein mob form.

And I agree, whats the point of an MMO if you can't advance further and get even better? Isnt that the point of an MMO? To become the very best you can be?

washlov

Sithisvoid wrote: »

I don't see anything wrong with VR16 or Champion points. MMO's raise level cap. Champion points keep people playing the game. Plus what kind of backlash would erupt if they removed them? The people who spent hour upon hour grinding will suddenly leave the mobs and return the the forum in Frankenstein mob form.

CP killing the game slowly
on consols the pc chars will dominate pvp und the dungeon leaderbords

Rhakon

no not in a linear 24/7 farmingsimulator-system.

content and challenges should keep us busy and playing.

Aneima

Sypher wrote: »

I have gone against players who have double/triple my champion points (I currently have ~300) and can confirm that the imbalance is extreme and will only get worse.

This also applies to PVE, once a group of players with high CP get together they will start breaking leaderboards with their mathematical advantage and newer players or players who don't grind out CP will be left in the dirt.

As a player with 5 vet accounts and 6th one in the works, my distaste for v16 is pretty obvious.


Speak up folks.

That my friend is when ZOS will yet again nerf abilities etc in an attempt to balance classes. One needs to ask the question is it worth farming CP now with the high possibility of all the time and effort wasted. Sadly only time will tell but all of us who play mmorpgs already know that nerfs are inevitable and are bound to happen.

Deathztalker

The reason for the bump to VR16 is to fix some of the itemization issues that are currently going on in the game. How would you suggest fixing these issues without increasing the VR levels and without making changes to the existing gear in the game or devaluing the existing items?

The Champion Points system needs to be transitioned but I don’t think that a seasons for Champion Points is the solution. In fact it may make the problem even worst as you would have some people with no CP and the people who actively work on getting CP would still always have more CP then the average Joe .

It’s all fun to talk about the problems but what we need are the solution. . . . . .

washlov

delete pls

BrightnessSyl

Keep up the discussion guys!

coryevans_3b14_ESO

Dracane

Aneima wrote: »

Sypher wrote: »

I have gone against players who have double/triple my champion points (I currently have ~300) and can confirm that the imbalance is extreme and will only get worse.

This also applies to PVE, once a group of players with high CP get together they will start breaking leaderboards with their mathematical advantage and newer players or players who don't grind out CP will be left in the dirt.

As a player with 5 vet accounts and 6th one in the works, my distaste for v16 is pretty obvious.


Speak up folks.

That my friend is when ZOS will yet again nerf abilities etc in an attempt to balance classes. One needs to ask the question is it worth farming CP now with the high possibility of all the time and effort wasted. Sadly only time will tell but all of us who play mmorpgs already know that nerfs are inevitable and are bound to happen.

In some cases, nerfs are unevitable. But in my opinion, ZoS nerfs simply due to lack of creativity. Best example is the nerf to crushing shock. They reduced the damage of it by 10% to make the other morph more attractive. Really, this is sooo poor. But luckily, few people fall for this poor attempt.

Callous2208

This post has really got me thinking. Honestly, at this time I do not know the solution, although I concede the CP needs a definite reworking/removal. I believe these sort of issues are what led me to rp. Kind of my escape from the realization that the long term vets and hardcore grinders can roll me in the same gear with equal or less skill. Hopefully those brighter than I can come up with a solid solution that benefits all. Until then I guess I'll be /drinking with the boys at Fallowstone.

GrieverXVII

I recently got into ESO on the PS4 because of friends, I had originally never intended to even play this game due to it's initial P2P feature, ended up giving it a shot after it went F2P for an upfront cost of the game just as any other game. playing it was a slow start for me, game started getting better after level 10ish. Right now i'm level 38 on my first and only character so i am still very inexperienced as to how this game functions at end-game let alone many other things...though lots of lurking of forums and general info found online about ESO, it sounds like many people are not happy with the current state of this game and even though I have no experienced opinion to stand on, from what i've read in this topic i'd like to thank everyone for the great heads up and knowledge about the game in one compressed topic, but I would also like to comment here just to say that the dev's really should be listening to it's most loyal and experienced veterans, who better to know how to fix a game than those who have dumped hundreds if not thousands of hours into learning a game and it's mechanics inside and out. I was like that with Dark Souls 1 & 2 and would of loved to be heard by the devs regarding certain things. So i really hope this gets noticed and hopefully my comment will add to that spark of interest. Goodluck guys!

Gidorick

I agree that the CP system MUST have a catch-up mechanic. I outlined my concept HERE.

In general, my concept suggests that the higher the top number of CPs that have been earned on a server, the faster those with few CPs will earn them. So when one player 1000 CPs, players who have 100 CPs will earn them at a faster rate than every single player that more CPs than them. That rate diminishes with each CP that is earned and by the time we reach players that have 900...950 CPs, the rate is just a little faster than the player with 1000 CPs.

The core CP rate wouldn't change. so the community as a whole would be earning them at the rate they are now.

I personally don't care for time-based caps to CP because it encourages players to rush to the cap and then wait... when the cap is raised... they rush to the cap... and wait.

I completely agree the CP gap is threatening ESO's future. The VR increase... not so much.

Of course, I haven't played nearly as much as you have @Deltia.