The Day ESO Dies

Fuxo

The day ESO dies comes when ZOS starts listening to players' half-baked suggestions. Everybody complains that ZOS is "slow", but I am also glad that majority of the changes are not rushed (although there are always some unfortunate ones). I really doubt all the announced things make it into 1.7 release. Some will be abandoned, other implemented. But it requires a lot of testing and discussion within ZOS to make a great game both for veterans and casual players. ESO should never ever become a game for min-maxers. It is too beautifully crafted to become a game of numbers. There are plenty of ways to prevent the catch-up game and ZOS has now a lot more experience to implement it well. Just enjoy the game and let them to do their job.

Cernow

Great to read the views of someone like Deltia with such in-depth knowledge of the game. Interesting stuff and I share the concerns raised.

The problem with MMO balance is that it's a tangle of interlinked and often conflicting forces. Over-nerf or over-buff one system and another problem rears its head. Allow rampant vertical progression and game balance becomes a joke. Unless these problems are nipped in the bud they get entwined into the fabric of the game and become very hard to correct without a full reset. Caution should always be exercised before throwing a new progression system into the game without a thought to the long term consequences (i.e CPs).

The devs knew that VR is unpopular and needs removing / changing. But to introduce CPs into the equation before fixing VR was foolish in the extreme. And to then compound this with VR16, well it's a real head shaker. VR16 does not fix or reset anything, it just muddles things further whilst at the same time pouring a lot of players time down the drain without much justification.

There's now two systems needing fixing, but which is causing the most problems? Personally I believe it is CPs which have the potential to cause the greatest harm to the game long term.

It's easy to defend ZOS by saying they are a rookie MMO developer making rookie mistakes. But the genre isn't new now and these mistakes have been made before by other games. The lessons are all on public display to be learned. But ZOS seem to develop ESO in a bubble, learning nothing from other titles, obstinately ploughing their own furrow and digging themselves deeper into the mire as they go. This wouldn't be so bad if they had a clear roadmap and were sticking to it come what may. But sadly this all has the feeling of headless chicken development, personally I don't feel confident they know where they're going with all this.

Everyone will have to decide for themselves whether they feel this can be resolved properly so that it's worth sinking their time (and money) into the game going forwards, or if it's only going to unravel from here on in.

washlov

Fuxo wrote: »

The day ESO dies comes when ZOS starts listening to players' half-baked suggestions. Everybody complains that ZOS is "slow", but I am also glad that majority of the changes are not rushed (although there are always some unfortunate ones). I really doubt all the announced things make it into 1.7 release. Some will be abandoned, other implemented. But it requires a lot of testing and discussion within ZOS to make a great game both for veterans and casual players. ESO should never ever become a game for min-maxers. It is too beautifully crafted to become a game of numbers. There are plenty of ways to prevent the catch-up game and ZOS has now a lot more experience to implement it well. Just enjoy the game and let them to do their job.

pc players have to wait for long promised content cause they made console version
we paid one year sub and got nothing more than console^^ they milked us

Roselle

OP gets an awesome, but I kind of wanted to take away the awesome because I saw what Sypher was doing (and being sponsored to do it?)...

Just saying.

TheElementalPlatypus

NotSo wrote: »

Once 1/2 of the player base has grinded up to 3600 cp, then they might nerf it.

10/10

So true

sadownik

Fuxo wrote: »

The day ESO dies comes when ZOS starts listening to players' half-baked suggestions. Everybody complains that ZOS is "slow", but I am also glad that majority of the changes are not rushed (although there are always some unfortunate ones). I really doubt all the announced things make it into 1.7 release. Some will be abandoned, other implemented. But it requires a lot of testing and discussion within ZOS to make a great game both for veterans and casual players. ESO should never ever become a game for min-maxers. It is too beautifully crafted to become a game of numbers. There are plenty of ways to prevent the catch-up game and ZOS has now a lot more experience to implement it well. Just enjoy the game and let them to do their job.

Mate i dont think you know what are you talking about.
Was it players who designed champion system that was flawd from the beginning? Where are the players who asked for veteran rank system implementaion that we have now? "

"prevent the catch up game" could you elaborate on that? You do undesrstand that its propably too late to "catch up" with cp system without drastic changes?

Majority of changes not rushed? One month suddenly nerfing all xp in the whole zone, 2 months later announcing that it will be buffed... again? Changes to PvP done in 1.6 patch, that everyone who cared could see, with cp system simply wont work, just for Z. to admit that 3 moths later and doing 180' turn in announced 1.7 update? ... and the list goes on.

There are many people who care about the game but ffs we are way past 3 monkeys tactic.

J2JMC

houimetub17_ESO wrote: »

NOTE: V16 would NOT be a big deal if CP system would not exist

From the perspective of a new player who has spent some time trying to gain more knowledge about the vet and cp systems, since I hit vet 1 myself I have to agree with this. Though I think the thought is not complete

I first found out about vet ranks when I was around level 30 and dreaded them. I was kind of on the whole "If we have champ system why do we need vet ranks?" mindset. However, after looking at a few things I have come to believe the vr system is not really a problem, it's actually the content that goes along with it. People seem to have a real issue with the content between v1-v10. I think if that particular content was considered engaging and fresh by all it would vet ranks would not be so hated. That coupled with what has been considered minimal additional content just makes the situation even worse.

I think ZOS needs to make unique and fun content for the individual factions in the vet zones(1-10) instead of just using the meridia magic cop out. I think leaving the dungeons, delves and bosses are fair but they need to change the quests so it enhances each factions story instead of just playing another story at a higher level. I think that, coupled with the xp changes they are making and the content they are supposed to be adding would make vet ranks hated much less. The icing on the cake would be changing the term "vet ranks" into levels "50-65". It's functionally the same, but I think Iitwould just make people feel better.

As for champion points, my concern isn't really with the gap in between new players so much as ZOS won't be able to successfully balance 3600 of them. Optimally, I think champion points should be removed. How many nerfs in the future may occur to things that are perfectly fine but get ridiculous because of champion points? There's even a possibility that the expected stamina changes to roll dodge and block may have been an effect of champion points. I do understand that higher level gear has a significantly larger effect and skill points have a significantly large effect on such a change. Still, I think there is a possibility that champion points opened up possibilities that simply couldn't be balanced effectively by the devs so they had to make these major changes. If champion points can't be removed they need to be capped a lot lower than 3600.

Once again just a new player giving a different perspective. Anything I most likely may have overlooked please let me know.

CriD

VR I don't see as a problem, its the champion points system. I'm new to eso since console launch and I WAS planning on playing alot of PvP, but due to transfers who already have 500+ CP points and just continuing to gain it as the core of the console population just tries to get up to VR, it makes PvP severely favoring the transfers, which makes console gamers have an impossible time getting to emperor(was my main goal).

Transfers are an issue for the console crowd, a big issue, buying guild stores with there millions they already had, makes the economy a joke for anyone only having a guild of console gamers, but that's not this discussion.

I think VR ranks are fine, take out CP or continue to cater to the people that don't have a life or interests in the outside world which is the minority here.

Most_Awesome

ZOS Just got 360 No scoped by @Deltia

This guy has hit the nail on the head ZOS please listen, there realy does need a cap on how much CP people can get in a given time.
Heres an example 2 Stamina users

1) Breton Stamina NB (Made at early release with sof caps in place)
2) Bosmer Stamina NB

Lets say Player 1 is a casual with 195 points, he can invest enough of his CP points in Stamina regen to finaly get enough to equal the Bosmer passive

Then we have Player2 a grinder with 400+ CP with this amount Player 1 will never be able to equal his stam regen and also gets to buff everything else to make his stam build poo all over the Breton even more.

Whats Player 1 to do re roll a Imperial,Redguard,Bosmer to v1.....oh yeah while hes doing that Player 2 just hit the 600CP mark

MissBizz

Daenerys wrote: »

Thank you for speaking up @Deltia. Adding Veteran Ranks does not equal new content. We are starved for content.

What happened to everything from Quakecon 2014? Where is the Imperial City, Murkmire, Wrothgar, Spellcrafting, the PvP part of the Justice System, Dark Brotherhood, and Thieves Guild?

WHY have you gone back on your word to get rid of VRs and done a 180 to add more?! Why is that promised removal now part of your long term vision- along with Player Housing in the infamous realm of maybe someday?

Where are the Road Ahead articles? The last one I recall was from February- and that had devolved into something akin to The Road Behind. With key players from your team now gone, perhaps you can no longer provide this for you don’t know where you are going... and that is a shame.

I want this game to succeed, but doing the exact opposite of what was promised is not the way to instill confidence.

@Daenerys The raising of the level cap will happen at the same time as Imperial City release.

Anyways..
I don't mind at all that VR16 is coming, I actually like it. Although, I'm also a player that is about to turn VR14 that has played since practically launch and still has 2 full Caldwell Gold zones to complete, and all of Craglorn.. so contrary to popular belief, there is enough content to reach current max. I like the idea of levels and it feels like I have something more to work towards. CP just seems like a .001% blip in the background, where levels take time and effort to receive. As mentioned, why the increase on level cap? Because veteran levels are tightly coupled with itemization. Do you want new shiny sets that come with that new content? Maybe some stronger more powerful sets? Well they will be VR16, as that is how the itemization works.

As for the championship system, as @Elijah_Crow mentioned, ZOS has mentioned a catch-up mechanic. From the tidbit I heard, I recall it being something along the lines of the beginning CP being much easier to get. Now, the thing is, who decides how big of a gap is allowed to be there?

My question @Deltia, is if you would be okay waiting for a catch-up mechanic? If not, why would you not voice your opinion until it is "too late"? Do you believe ZOS would be able to implement it within their current timeframe for Update 7? I don't think that's possible. When do you believe this catch-up mechanic is needed? Right now? What would you consider an acceptable gap? 100CP? 300CP?

r.jan_emailb16_ESO

I personally don't care anymore about the vet ranks. They add another two, I'm gonna grind it in a day or so. Making new sets, whatever.

The real issue is, I'd like to be competitive. I consider myself to be not that bad at pvp, but the problem is simply the amount of time I can put into this game. And no, I don't want everything handed to me for free, but I want to be able to catch up. This is, as has already been stated many times, not possible due to the champion system. When I talk with guildies about pvp builds and such and mention that I don't even have 200 CP, they just shrug and are sorry, but everyone's opinion is that the gameplay with >360 and more is completely different.

It will take me several month to get to this level, and by this time I face opponents closing in on 800 or even more. Optimally, I'd want to have everyone on the same level, only difference should be the choice of gear sets (everyone should be able to get every set in a reasonable time, screw rng) and personal skill. I know this won't happen every again in ESO; but being constantly handicapped for years (and I play rather to much, can't imagine the casuals to ever catch up) to come is a whole different level of unfairness.

acolyte2475b14_ESO

Some devs make games to make money. Some devs make the games they want to play. It's funny that the devs with heart that are just making a game they want to play, that treat making money like some kind of weird side effect of their hobbie, are always the ones that make the most money.

You would think more devs would want that instead of creating some predictable profit scheme disguised as a game.

I guess we need to all ask our selves, which one is ESO really?

Forestd16b14_ESO

Hmm thing is who the bloody cares? I sure don't so what 2 more levels doesn't mean the end of the game and every one is over reacting. Cause here is how I am seeing it 2 more attribute and skill points and better craftable gear. So again every stop being over dramatic for the love of ESO it is not the end of the freaking game game is rate M for mature yet every one is acting like 10 year olds when the next CoD is accounced. Not the end over reacting grow up.

acolyte2475b14_ESO

The problem is that solo content takes a hell of a lot of time and money to create. It's a developmental act of love. With ESO we are pretty much talking 7 years to create the core game if you go by their own admission to starting in 2007.

This is why MMO's so often opt out of solo content or when they create it can usually be blow though in a few days by even the most casual of players.

It's just so much easier to raise a few levels, add a few skills, or develope a new game mechanic.

acolyte2475b14_ESO

Honestly MMOs are better off being sand boxes with lore then story driven. Players are insanely good at creating their own reasons to play in a sand box. And the devs have the ability to excite everyone with mechanics as content in that kind of setting.

Phinix1

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

Hmm thing is who the bloody cares? I sure don't so what 2 more levels doesn't mean the end of the game and every one is over reacting. Cause here is how I am seeing it 2 more attribute and skill points and better craftable gear. So again every stop being over dramatic for the love of ESO it is not the end of the freaking game game is rate M for mature yet every one is acting like 10 year olds when the next CoD is accounced. Not the end over reacting grow up.

Sabaticus wrote: »

[...]

• Didn't read the OP.
• Has no concept of the CP gap or why people are upset.
• Thinks the thread is about Veteran 16.
• Posted to sound cool

The problem here is and has always been the catering to the zombie treadmill of grind-to-win destroying fair competition and the ability for new players to EVER experience that, or catch up.

[Moderator Note: Removed moderated quote]

Sabaticus

acolyte2475b14_ESO wrote: »

The problem is that solo content takes a hell of a lot of time and money to create. It's a developmental act of love. With ESO we are pretty much talking 7 years to create the core game if you go by their own admission to starting in 2007.

This is why MMO's so often opt out of solo content or when they create it can usually be blow though in a few days by even the most casual of players.

It's just so much easier to raise a few levels, add a few skills, or develope a new game mechanic.

I'm afraid your point is too true. I'm hedging my bets by subscribing to SW:TOR now for the upcoming expansion in October in case ZOS completely deserts their SOLO players. The Old Republic is turning into a real single player MMO.

Gidorick

@MissBizz. I don't think ZOS' currently planned catch-up mechanic plan (what we know of anyway) will be sufficient. It simply lowers the amount of XP it takes to earn the first however-many CPs. It's NOT a "catch-up" plan, it's a "gap-closer" plan. The situation we are in now will happen again and again ZOS will be forced to lower the amount of XP required for however-many-more CPs.

This is why my suggestion HERE creates a catch-up mechanic that will dynamically apply an XP earning buff that is based on the most CP any one player has earned and the amount of CP a player currently has. This way, the more CPs that are earned by the top players, the faster those with fewer CPs will earn their next CPs.

Lowering how much XP CPs costs is a short term fix. My concept would be a long-term solution.

Erlex

When @deltia and I can absolutely 100% agree on a topic...You have a huge freaking problem.

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_GinaBruno If you guys can stress the developers to listen to us on one thing ever, this is the thing. For the love of god, don't ignore us again.

Gidorick

acolyte2475b14_ESO wrote: »

The problem is that solo content takes a hell of a lot of time and money to create. It's a developmental act of love. With ESO we are pretty much talking 7 years to create the core game if you go by their own admission to starting in 2007.

This is why MMO's so often opt out of solo content or when they create it can usually be blow though in a few days by even the most casual of players.

It's just so much easier to raise a few levels, add a few skills, or develope a new game mechanic.

To be fair, they created the engine they're using from just about scratch, the first few years was probably them nailing down the engine.

ZOS_GinaBruno

Thank you, everyone, for taking the time to give us your feedback, and for keeping it constructive. We'll be sure to pass this along to the appropriate teams to read over.

Forztr

Veteran Ranks
I could be way off base but the main benefit to gaining veteran ranks is to unlock the ability to use better gear. So why couldn't they just change it so at level 50 can use any gear that you can acquire by crafting, buying or doing content. Veteran ranks become Gear Ranks. No need to retune anything. Maybe Cadwells Silver + Gold would need a bit of a buff but you could keep the loot drops the same it all gets vendored or deconned anyway.

Champion points
I think the point of champion points is continuous improvement of your character. Does it have to be just the constellation? Could they not lets say expand champion points into an endgame currency where they cap the points you can spend in the existing constellation at 360. But you can also use Champion points to buy skill points, unique gear, mats, etc. Details including prices would need some extra thought but it would still allow for character growth and rewards for those who play more without creating and ever growing power gap.

r.jan_emailb16_ESO

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

Hmm thing is who the bloody cares? I sure don't so what 2 more levels doesn't mean the end of the game and every one is over reacting. Cause here is how I am seeing it 2 more attribute and skill points and better craftable gear. So again every stop being over dramatic for the love of ESO it is not the end of the freaking game game is rate M for mature yet every one is acting like 10 year olds when the next CoD is accounced. Not the end over reacting grow up.

No one has a problem with extra vet ranks, aside from the fact that they wanted to remove them a year ago (it was actually planned to remove them with or shortly after introduction of the CP system). The problem is a different one, educate yourself.

CriD

If they keep the champion point system, can't we get increments for PvP. In no way should a fresh VR14 have to go up against a VR 14 with 500+ cp. Group it by 200 increments to give people a fighting chance and to still give people the high and mighty feeling.

Rhakon

Keep Vetranks remove Championssystem!

At this point both systems are not glorious but the Veteransystem does not seperate the players and brings imbalance.

It would be the lesser of two evils.

parpin

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

Hmm thing is who the bloody cares? I sure don't so what 2 more levels doesn't mean the end of the game and every one is over reacting. Cause here is how I am seeing it 2 more attribute and skill points and better craftable gear. So again every stop being over dramatic for the love of ESO it is not the end of the freaking game game is rate M for mature yet every one is acting like 10 year olds when the next CoD is accounced. Not the end over reacting grow up.

Sabaticus wrote: »

I will send each of the disaffected some cheese from my provisions bag to go with your whine. You have content and you *** about it just because it isn't exactly the way you like it. Tough. Don't like quit especially the OP.

Now where the hell is my SOLO content after Caldwell Gold.

• Didn't read the OP.
• Has no concept of the CP gap or why people are upset.
• Thinks the thread is about Veteran 16.
• Posted to sound cool

The problem here is and has always been the catering to the zombie treadmill of grind-to-win destroying fair competition and the ability for new players to EVER experience that, or catch up.

when you read post from people who defend zos on this..then you will become to know zos is wrong because what they do is acceptable to not very smart people..example the guy who ask for solo content in a mmo..that is how you know something is wrong.

Adam_Chattaway

i thought they were removing it? vr ranks

parpin

@Sabaticus
you wrote:
I'm afraid your point is too true. I'm hedging my bets by subscribing to SW:TOR now for the upcoming
expansion in October in case ZOS completely deserts their SOLO players. The Old Republic is turning into a real single player MMO.[/quote]
i say to you:
it can not be MMO if it is single player Einstein

Glory

Veteran Ranks
Couldn't care less that there are more of them or they haven't been removed yet. ZOS, do what you gotta do. Add levels for more content if you feel it necessary. (Maybe tone the rate down a bit).

Champion Points
I said from the start these would create a huge player gap between grinders, hardcore players, casual players, etc. I agree with what Deltia is saying.
My personal opinion: they need to be limited to how many you can get in a time period with a catchup mechanic. I play a lot, have a lot of points, and realize that it'll be unfair when I have thousands and others have tens.

VERY ROUGH Example solution: Every month you can only gain 100 champion points. If you have less than the "desired average," you can gain bonus points to a certain limit based on a tiering system

1. Players with less than 500 points can gain a bonus 200 (total 300 or once they reach 500).
2. Players with 500-1000 can gain a bonus 150 (total 250 or once they reach 1000).
3. Players with 1000-1500 can gain a bonus 100 (total 200 or once they reach 1500).
4. etc. etc.

In the above (obviously flawed in some ways certainly) plan everyone will still be able to grow in strength, with players who are behind having a reasonable catchup mechanic.

lathbury

Wait I thought i was alone in this thinking been saying for a while now vet ranks aren't the problem it was only having 2 extremely boring repetitive ways to get them (grindin or silver gold). the real problem is CP's and there effect how do you even balance new content for 2 v16 characters one with 100 cps the other with 500?

when it comes to pvp and new players its even worse.
my only thing is why has it took the community so long to wake up to this when a few of us could see this imbalance coming as soon as a vertical endless progression system was announced.