The Day ESO Dies

coryevans_3b14_ESO

Edited because I re read the OP and get it now.

Xendyn

coryevans_3b14_ESO wrote: »

Isn't it possible though that the v16 is getting released with Imp City? I'm just asking I honestly don't know since I thought they didn't announce a time for the v16 drop.

I respect your opinion though

It is and he stated that in the V16 section

coryevans_3b14_ESO

Xendyn wrote: »

coryevans_3b14_ESO wrote: »

Isn't it possible though that the v16 is getting released with Imp City? I'm just asking I honestly don't know since I thought they didn't announce a time for the v16 drop.

I respect your opinion though

It is and he stated that in the V16 section

Thank you. I missed it. My fault.

sadownik

Its good to see some people that are known making an effort to show thye point of view. while i agree with all @Deltia points, i would also add my 2 cents.

While im not surprised with the lack of consequence in continuing changes to the game most fundamental system, since Z. was awfuly quiet about the last step in that changes, that is removing teh vet ranks, i must admit i was very surprised by the decision to add 2 vet ranks to already existing 14 especailly when in terms of xp required to gain rank 16 is slightly lower than "old" rank 14.

I wont discuss the reasons given by Z., but would like to express my dissapointement, that in another element ESO becomes very standard (some would even say outdated) MMO. Gear grind while provides basic progression and the illusion of character developement, when put as a fundament of further game developement is cause of unnecesairy and artificial player population division as well as system limiting the nature of content added to the game.

Champion system, while might look good on paper, when not designed with upmost causion and highly difficult to obtain balance between giving players the feeling of character developement and keeping the top players in limits not allowing them to literally cripple the system.

Sadly i must say Z. was not succesful in obtaining the above balance. Be it lack of developer experience in MMO genre, or any other reasons, c. system is already (just few months after launch) cause of turbulence and "overleveling" by quite noticable group of players the majority of playerbase. While itself is absolutly undestandable, combined with long term, or rather high xp needed to max the cp leaves many players with the feeling of hopelesness, and lack of true possibilites to not even catch up but just close to the above average players.

Forgive me any language mistakes, english is not my first language.

NobleNerd

Deltia,

I agree with much of your concerns posted here. As a guild leader and long time player of this game I share these concerns. For me it has become very obvious that ZOS has an issue with removing VR levels, but to constantly bait us with words and then slap us in the face with more of the same thing hurts.... nay.... becomes greatly discouraging.

I was excited when update 6 was announced and released. I like the Champion System (but not how it functions right now). The concept is sound, their delivery and implementation of it is becoming a catastrophe! This along with not being able to effectively level in Cyrodiil as I battle (no I don't want to stop pvping to do side quests and grinds) has hindered how much I play in pvp right now.

I really don't think ZOS understands how MMOers like to play. They still seem to treat this game like it is a single player RPG.

Faulgor

Deltia wrote: »

But I'm not going to sit back and let another level increase happen without a true fix to the underlying problem, the Champion System.

I think another, if not bigger underlying problem is the reward structure and itemization, at least for PvE. I don't want to get into details, as I believe most players have at least a few things to complain about it. So I'm really curious about Wrobel's next appearance where he plans to talk about itemization.

Regarding the Champion System, I'm really digging a recent suggestion posted here: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/190525/best-idea-for-cs-gap-problem-thx-to-rune-relic

Lazrael

Thanks a ton for speaking up on here Deltia!
Same goes for Sypher and Pinklatex. I can say that even as someone who hasn't reached max ranking and doesn't really participate in hardcore pvp, that this change still impacts me. I say this because the reason I am not max level and don't really participate in pvp is that this system is broken. I want to play the game more, but slogging through vet ranks and still being constantly gimped compared to other players isn't something I am willing to do. It's not fun. It's non inventive and lazy design.

So while my characters right now are not directly impacted by these systems per se, I can say I am one of what I assume to be many people that are discouraged from participating in the first place.

I hope that we see things change soon, because honestly, the road that the game has been on has not been one that breeds much confidence in me.

Thanks again Deltia.

Mitchblue

Should have kept it a PC game. And I'm a PS4 guy. "Lets work on making a console game but lets take out some stuff, that'll teach 'em."

bertenburnyb16_ESO

uhuh @Zos, when even Deltia speaks doomsday messages u know u [snip] up

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Cursing & Profanity]

Talemire

I personally like the Champion System. I believe longevity should be rewarded as it keeps you on your toes and always looking forward to more progression in improving your character. Why remove a system that's not restricted? Everyone can achieve 3.6k points, and I feel that the ones who so choose to should be rewarded for it. It's what every other MMORPG lacks IMO. It's a straight selling point for me, and I hope ZOS continues to expand upon it. I hate to sound like the antagonist here, but I'm glad ZOS is doing something different than the 100s of other MMORPGs out there. Keep being different.

Xendyn

Talemire wrote: »

I personally like the Champion System. I believe longevity should be rewarded as it keeps you on your toes and always looking forward to more progression in improving your character. Why remove a system that's not restricted? Everyone can achieve 3.6k points, and I feel that the ones who so choose to should be rewarded for it. It's what every other MMORPG lacks IMO. It's a straight selling point for me, and I hope ZOS continues to expand upon it. I hate to sound like the antagonist here, but I'm glad ZOS is doing something different than the 100s of other MMORPGs out there. Keep being different.

Nobody in here talking about removing it.

Alcast

Deltia wrote: »

Hello ESO Forums,

I posted this on my website but I know ZOS reads these forums so I figured I'd share my thoughts here. I'm one person the sea of awesome people that love this game. With the announcement of increase in Veteran Ranks I'd like to leave my feedback whether you agree or not. And here's what I have to say about the problem and fixing it.

Before I start I want to make clear where my opinions come from. I make my living playing THIS video game only. Not only that, but it's my primary means of socialization. Over the past two years (including beta), I've been infatuated with the idea of a multiplayer Elder Scrolls Game. Not to mention the help that ZOS has personally given me. I still love ESO, but I'm not going to blindly follow a games growth that does not fit my needs. Just realize the passion I have for this game, it's community and developers runs deep.

VR 16?

Within the same breath, Eric Wrobel said they still have long term plans of removing Veteran Ranks (VR), but for the new content they are increasing it by two thus making end game VR 16. At this point, I think it's clear that Veteran Ranks aren't going away, ANYTIME in the future. I have eight VR 14s and the problem I have with this isn't the time investment to re-level all those characters, or the fully legendary gear, but the constant deception about not adding more Veteran Ranks. We as customers have a right to voice or opinions and/or a right to stop being customers. For me, it's time to pick one and voicing seems to be the best option.

I have defended their decisions as a business model constantly but this is one I cannot ignore. Adding Veteran Ranks is not content, it's busy work. Content is intractable quest, dungeon diving finding worthwhile rewards with friends, a working PvP system giving flexibility and choices. Yes, I know Imperial City is coming with this additional Veteran Ranks, but why increase the cap? "Deltia to increase the contents difficulty," well that's true in most MMOs but not ESO and that's due to the Champion System.

Champion Progression

Most games have a level cap that once reached, one works on optimizing gear and your individual skill for increased performance. However, ESO has the Champion System rendering time in game collecting XP as account progression. So take the most skilled PvPer in the world (let's say Sypher) vs. someone with 1,000 more champion points. Skill is irreverent at this point. Thus removing one of the core reasons I play MMOs and video games alike. Busy work trumps constantly improving yourself. Grinding mobs and CP is the new meta, not skill.

Take another game for instance, you have fully maxed out gear and have been playing for four years. Once a level increase hits, most players will be on an even playing field in terms of gear. So, there is some possibility of catching up to those folks that spend eight hours a day in game. Not ESO, there is no Champion Point catch up mechanic. The person at level 10 might be more powerful than someone at VR14 due to CP. Without a catch up mechanic or a way to limit zombie grinding macros and bots, you'll have a runaway performance gap the size the Grand Canyon.
The Fix

Someone like me benefits significantly from the Champion System. Having alts, grinding mobs and skills, etc just makes me VERY powerful. But it does not help new players, inexperienced ones nor the overall game. My good friend Parfax had an excellent suggestion, simply have seasons for Champion Points. Meaning, every three months or so, you could gain 100 CP. Once you reach that number, you have to wait for the reset. No more 100 v 1,000 CP fights. If that doesn't work, why not make CP have diminishing returns? So the first 300 are very easy to obtain, but everything beyond that is harder (similar to Alliance Ranks).

I'm all for account wide progression, but at what cost? At the cost that people grinding zombies ultimately win? At the cost that skill and performance are removed out of the game? I want to one day challenge Sypher in PvP without out grinding him. With skill, learning, getting my face kicked in by him over and over just to beat him one day with pure skill. Until this changes, the easier way for me to beat him is out grind him. Obtain such a mathematical advantage that no amount of skill can compensate. And that is the day that ESO dies.

Why I Give a ****

No I do not plan on leaving the game. I still love the combat, the people and the developers. But I'm no longer a bushy eyed fan-boy. I don't want to leave this game, this is my absolute favorite thing to do (well besides you know what). I've have (not had) such an emotional attachment to the land of Tamriel that I won't let it go just yet. But I'm not going to sit back and let another level increase happen without a true fix to the underlying problem, the Champion System.

VR 16
They will not nor do they know how they would remove the VR ranks. with the decrease of EXP needed to level up you will need same EXP to reach v16 as now v14. So it really doenst matter...v18 is next >.>

CP
I hate the CP system AND i am SO HAPPY that the chick that designed the CP System is not in ZOS anymore like Sage,bb and I hope she will never be allowed to be part in any developer team ever again. So hopefully those guys in ZOS realize soon that they designed a BullS system. There are a few ppl with 1k CP already, or close to it.



How do I with 300 CP want to compete vs a dude with 1k?

That is a gap of 700 CP, every 100 Cp he has approx 2,9k more resources than me, more defenses, more attack power...more everything

Elijah_Crow

OP,

I have to say I'm a fan. I've sent more than one person to your site for guidance on game play and appreciate your insights. With that said I have to respectfully disagree with you and here's why.

VR Ranks are intimately tied to itemization currently. In my opinion the end game has been stagnant for some time and it's time to raise the bar for gear and progression. If having VR Ranks removed means a delay in the launch of new content and gear, then now is not the time to do it.

It makes much more sense to raise the VR Cap by 2 and introduce new content to give players at end game something to aspire to while re-working the itemization completely to allow the removal of VR Ranks.

With these changes a new player can now reach level cap of VR16 from level 50 in 25% to 30% less time than it took me to reach VR14. This is a move in the right direction. This change in addition to the gear reset puts everyone on a more level playing field at VR16 for the time being which is fantastic.

In addition they can always institute a champion point catch up system (which in my opinion is not yet necessary as only 2% of the players are really pushing the envelope here. Your average player since launch may only now be reaching VR14 and since you dedicate so much time to the game, I think your perception is skewed here.

I think the plan moving forward is pretty solid and most of the changes they are working on are based on great player feedback.

I would also add one controversial step they could take to balance VR Ranks. They could make VR Ranks account wide (and i'm not a fan of account wide anything) for any character over level 50. Once you reach VR16 and decide for example you would like to try another class, you level 1-50 and once you hit 50 you automatically become VR16. This would eliminate the "grind" to try another class. Not saying they should do this, but it's is an alternative that's doable.

Thanks again for your work with the game and the guidance you give players looking to achieve greatness.

Phinix1

Deltia wrote: »

Most games have a level cap that once reached, one works on optimizing gear and your individual skill for increased performance. However, ESO has the Champion System rendering time in game collecting XP as account progression. So take the most skilled PvPer in the world (let's say Sypher) vs. someone with 1,000 more champion points. Skill is irreverent at this point. Thus removing one of the core reasons I play MMOs and video games alike. Busy work trumps constantly improving yourself. Grinding mobs and CP is the new meta, not skill.

Take another game for instance, you have fully maxed out gear and have been playing for four years. Once a level increase hits, most players will be on an even playing field in terms of gear. So, there is some possibility of catching up to those folks that spend eight hours a day in game. Not ESO, there is no Champion Point catch up mechanic.

I have been saying this for months and nothing has come of it other than being constantly harassed by trolls. But then who am I? Just some loyal developer of free content for TES for the past 15 years who never made one red cent off of any of it.

Perhaps now that a big name like Deltia with a loyal Youtube/Facebook/Twitter following that actually gets paid to support games has said something, something might actually get done.

azoriangaming

my opinion on all of it is we've got 2 progression systems running atm which clearly don't go well together we need one or the other not both and we need it ASAP not as a long term brain fart,

the champion point system should've always had a cap on it until new content arrived then the cap increased each content update etc etc,

veteran ranks should've gone when the champion system was implemented or the champion system should've waited until they'd made that choice on removal of vet ranks.

there is no reason they can't release the new content as vr14 other than wanted to make a quick buck on the xp scrolls, I've got multiple toon and I'm a guy who hates grinding over and over again and I refuse to do so and I must admit I'm a little bit behind most with cp (277 atm) I like to log on chill chat with my guild mates do a dungeon or two and go do pvp and not think of how far behind I'm falling behind with no restrictions on CP gain, so imagine a new player coming into this game miles behind everyone, to be honest if I was that new player and I saw the system they'd got in place atm I wouldn't even bother coming to eso it's just too much of a gap to comprehend.

This game has so much potential and it's unbelieve what the ZoS big men are doing to this game and you can clearly see that this is their first project.

sadownik

rdbrown1987 wrote: »

my opinion on all of it is we've got 2 progression systems running atm which clearly don't go well together we need one or the other not both and we need it ASAP not as a long term brain fart,

the champion point system should've always had a cap on it until new content arrived then the cap increased each content update etc etc,

veteran ranks should've gone when the champion system was implemented or the champion system should've waited until they'd made that choice on removal of vet ranks.

there is no reason they can't release the new content as vr14 other than wanted to make a quick buck on the xp scrolls, I've got multiple toon and I'm a guy who hates grinding over and over again and I refuse to do so and I must admit I'm a little bit behind most with cp (277 atm) I like to log on chill chat with my guild mates do a dungeon or two and go do pvp and not think of how far behind I'm falling behind with no restrictions on CP gain, so imagine a new player coming into this game miles behind everyone, to be honest if I was that new player and I saw the system they'd got in place atm I wouldn't even bother coming to eso it's just too much of a gap to comprehend.

This game has so much potential and it's unbelieve what the ZoS big men are doing to this game and you can clearly see that this is their first project.

Heh, imagine how i feel on my main vr 8 with 43 cp points .

Gidorick

I don't think the lack of a cap is the problem, it's a lack of catch-up mechanics.

and I actually LIKE the dual progression with VR & CP. I feel like I'm always "earning" something.

Ragged_Claw

I've played the game since launch and my main is still only V12, but I was happy because I was almost there! I am not an expert in the statistical or more technical side of things, so I can't comment on those. However from the point of view of someone who solos a lot, doesn't often get chance to do the higher level content such as Craglorn, this is a pain in the ass. There is no new end-game content that can be solo''d, no new quests etc, so it comes down to grinding and I hate grinding with a passion. I play at times when the servers are thinly populated, making finding groups difficult, so I have touched hardly any of Craglorn. I'm not much for PvPing either, which I didn't think mattered because you are supposed to be able to play the game 'your way', but without it levelling has been glacial to say the least. Why can't the dailies be divided into a group challenge and one for soloers, for example? Getting to the level I'm at has been like climbing a mountain and now it seems I've even further to go, and now I've finished Cadwell's Gold, frankly I'm getting a bored.

Phinix1

Deltia wrote: »

My good friend Parfax had an excellent suggestion, simply have seasons for Champion Points. Meaning, every three months or so, you could gain 100 CP. Once you reach that number, you have to wait for the reset. No more 100 v 1,000 CP fights. If that doesn't work, why not make CP have diminishing returns? So the first 300 are very easy to obtain, but everything beyond that is harder (similar to Alliance Ranks).

HERE is a detailed post I made about this problem weeks ago, complete with suggestions for fixes.

Notice how all I receive is troll posts to go with my hate mail. Notice how ZOS instantly buried it in "Combat Mechanics."

The psychology of the internet is a marvel to observe. Align with a major monopoly like Facebook/Twitter etc. and people assume you must be legit and support you. Have the same opinion but no monopoly affiliation?

Get trolled.

Perhaps internet tough guys like to pick what they think will be easy fights?

Sort of like the "winners" that grind CP to win in PVP?

G0ku

If some people keep their pace at gathering CP we will have players with 3,600 CP a year from now.

ZOS should check the leaderboards and the amount of CP of the players on it. They can´t implement a proper catch up mechanic because some people just speedgrind them. If you let people catch up properly we all would have finished max CP next year. Guess, as so many things, not as intended?

At least this is a problem which totally nullifies fair competition in both, pve and pvp. Until now I could choose one over the other as I like both, but it seems both will be flawed too much soon.

The raise of VR, well, you think imperial city quests will give enough XP to go from VR14-VR16? They force people to grind if there is no meaningful content with the raise. I was really hyped as long as it looked constant level raises would not happen, once again I feel like I´ve been lied to....

Heromofo

Highly respect you Deltia glad to see your taking a stand with this

Elijah_Crow

It's almost that everyone has forgotten what a drastic diminishing return there are on champion points... They have already discussed adjusting for a champion point catch up mechanic at a time when it's needed.

azoriangaming

sadownik wrote: »

rdbrown1987 wrote: »

my opinion on all of it is we've got 2 progression systems running atm which clearly don't go well together we need one or the other not both and we need it ASAP not as a long term brain fart,

the champion point system should've always had a cap on it until new content arrived then the cap increased each content update etc etc,

veteran ranks should've gone when the champion system was implemented or the champion system should've waited until they'd made that choice on removal of vet ranks.

there is no reason they can't release the new content as vr14 other than wanted to make a quick buck on the xp scrolls, I've got multiple toon and I'm a guy who hates grinding over and over again and I refuse to do so and I must admit I'm a little bit behind most with cp (277 atm) I like to log on chill chat with my guild mates do a dungeon or two and go do pvp and not think of how far behind I'm falling behind with no restrictions on CP gain, so imagine a new player coming into this game miles behind everyone, to be honest if I was that new player and I saw the system they'd got in place atm I wouldn't even bother coming to eso it's just too much of a gap to comprehend.

This game has so much potential and it's unbelieve what the ZoS big men are doing to this game and you can clearly see that this is their first project.

Heh, imagine how i feel on my main vr 8 with 43 cp points .

exactly the point I was trying to put across., I mean I tried to start a toon on the u.s server not long ago to see what it was like across the pond but I soon get fed up of it due to the champion system.

Kupoking

I remember 3 situation where people massively left the game due to them:

1- Lag in Cyrodiil as well as suspected 'lagsploitation' back in december/january paired to a few player obviouly found HACKING with proof all over youtube the resulted in a appraisal letter sent to said hackers by ZoS. No issue fixed. No one banned. Stuff still on going.

2- Free to play. Although it brough many new players, those were not quality players.

3- The long period of 'no new content' we just passed

4- The dumbing down of content (making all pve content infantile easy)

5- The bug filled/poor design of the first few months of the game. Some bugs are still ongoing like crown bug for example, allies being invisible in dungeons

6- Champion system. Grinding CP for the next 5 years doesnt seem appealing to a lot of people.

Next: v16 and the whole pay for DLC or sub for rent.

Just seem like this company has
1-some great ideas that are shut down by totally *** ideas.

2-Is incapable of fixing stuff they break.

3-Does poorly with hackers / exploiters.

Deltia

Elijah_Crow wrote: »

OP,

I have to say I'm a fan. I've sent more than one person to your site for guidance on game play and appreciate your insights. With that said I have to respectfully disagree with you and here's why.

VR Ranks are intimately tied to itemization currently. In my opinion the end game has been stagnant for some time and it's time to raise the bar for gear and progression. If having VR Ranks removed means a delay in the launch of new content and gear, then now is not the time to do it.

It makes much more sense to raise the VR Cap by 2 and introduce new content to give players at end game something to aspire to while re-working the itemization completely to allow the removal of VR Ranks.

With these changes a new player can now reach level cap of VR16 from level 50 in 25% to 30% less time than it took me to reach VR14. This is a move in the right direction. This change in addition to the gear reset puts everyone on a more level playing field at VR16 for the time being which is fantastic.

In addition they can always institute a champion point catch up system (which in my opinion is not yet necessary as only 2% of the players are really pushing the envelope here. Your average player since launch may only now be reaching VR14 and since you dedicate so much time to the game, I think your perception is skewed here.

I think the plan moving forward is pretty solid and most of the changes they are working on are based on great player feedback.

I would also add one controversial step they could take to balance VR Ranks. They could make VR Ranks account wide (and i'm not a fan of account wide anything) for any character over level 50. Once you reach VR16 and decide for example you would like to try another class, you level 1-50 and once you hit 50 you automatically become VR16. This would eliminate the "grind" to try another class. Not saying they should do this, but it's is an alternative that's doable.

Thanks again for your work with the game and the guidance you give players looking to achieve greatness.

Those are really valid points and thanks for voicing them.

Deltia

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

Deltia wrote: »

Most games have a level cap that once reached, one works on optimizing gear and your individual skill for increased performance. However, ESO has the Champion System rendering time in game collecting XP as account progression. So take the most skilled PvPer in the world (let's say Sypher) vs. someone with 1,000 more champion points. Skill is irreverent at this point. Thus removing one of the core reasons I play MMOs and video games alike. Busy work trumps constantly improving yourself. Grinding mobs and CP is the new meta, not skill.

Take another game for instance, you have fully maxed out gear and have been playing for four years. Once a level increase hits, most players will be on an even playing field in terms of gear. So, there is some possibility of catching up to those folks that spend eight hours a day in game. Not ESO, there is no Champion Point catch up mechanic.

I have been saying this for months and nothing has come of it other than being constantly harassed by trolls. But then who am I? Just some loyal developer of free content for TES for the past 15 years who never made one red cent off of any of it.

Perhaps now that a big name like Deltia with a loyal Youtube/Facebook/Twitter following that actually gets paid to support games has said something, something might actually get done.

I didn't mean any disrespect towards you or your work. I just wanted to give my opinion and I'm just one of many people that are involved in this community. I should have investigated a bit more into solutions and appreciate your work into solving the problem.

Cously

Few people complained about Champion System when it came out. Now that people saw they can't outskill grinders, we have a fuss. This is totally Elder Scrolls game, you can totally overpower the world around you. In all other games you could be a god maxing everything. What ZOS forgot is that ESO is online and there are more than one player in the game world. A 3600 CP character will be extremely overpowered compared to the world around it and people will complain they can't be overpowered as fast as others. And even if everyone was overpowered with maxed CP I don't think there would be a challenge left for anyone. Find a way to limit Champion System. I can't have all my skills slotted at the same time or all the weapons I want to use at same time, why do I get to use ALL of Champion System?

Kupoking

NOTE: V16 would NOT be a big deal if CP system would not exist

Heromofo

bertenburnyb16_ESO wrote: »

uhuh @Zos, when even Deltia speaks doomsday messages u know u [snip] up

Pretty much lol

[Moderator Note: Edited quote to match moderated version]

AllPlayAndNoWork

rdbrown1987 wrote: »

my opinion on all of it is we've got 2 progression systems running atm which clearly don't go well together we need one or the other not both and we need it ASAP not as a long term brain fart,

the champion point system should've always had a cap on it until new content arrived then the cap increased each content update etc etc,

veteran ranks should've gone when the champion system was implemented or the champion system should've waited until they'd made that choice on removal of vet ranks.

there is no reason they can't release the new content as vr14 other than wanted to make a quick buck on the xp scrolls, I've got multiple toon and I'm a guy who hates grinding over and over again and I refuse to do so and I must admit I'm a little bit behind most with cp (277 atm) I like to log on chill chat with my guild mates do a dungeon or two and go do pvp and not think of how far behind I'm falling behind with no restrictions on CP gain, so imagine a new player coming into this game miles behind everyone, to be honest if I was that new player and I saw the system they'd got in place atm I wouldn't even bother coming to eso it's just too much of a gap to comprehend.

This game has so much potential and it's unbelieve what the ZoS big men are doing to this game and you can clearly see that this is their first project.

Bloody hell Milo, Nice one centurion !