The Day ESO Dies

Zheg · July 2015

The sad thing is that even if they wisen up and rollback their decision to go to v16, doing so will probably delay imperial city yet again. The fault is entirely their own, but it's still unfortunate.

AzraelKrieg · July 2015

The Champ System needs to be tied to something other than XP to stop the grinding of them. I'm guilty of grinding XP to get them and even then, I still haven't hit the point that some players have. I think I have about 220 of them. I have one vet14, I did the grind on that to get there from vr11 before the XP changes, so I'm not like Deltia where I have 8 characters all at the level cap with 300+ Champ points and I honestly think that the CP gap is widening more and more.

As for the level cap increase to vr16, as long as content accompanies it, meaningful content, I honestly don't care. The fact that XP rewards are being increased in places like Craglorn, the vet quests and public dungeons and delves and that the XP needed to gain the ranks is being reduced to 850k is not that big of an issue for me.

If items after level 50 weren't so dependant on levels, the vet ranks wouldn't be so much of an issue and they would be removed quicker. I would prefer to see Ebony, Yew, and Ebonthread be the last level of crafting mats with the remainder of the mats afterwards used as akin to alloys to improve it further. Ebony Ingots combined with the vet14 equivalent of Voidstone Ingots would make something equivalent to a Voidstone Sword or Cuirass at vet14, essentially hardening the ebony in the item. Or an Ebonthread Shirt with Voidcloth stitching.

Celas_Dranacea · July 2015

Thanks for posting deltia - it sucks to feel so much pressure to try and keep up with the cp grind in order to stay competitive. I actually hate it. I'm at 180 cp and I'm able to take out a good number of players, but others are basically impossible due to higher stats. I don't mind the vr 16 thing as much - I'm bummed to have to craft and grind new gear but whatever.

However, the cp situation has to be fixed. I don't care if there are like, 1% of players out there that have grinded 500+ cp and will be bummed to get nerfed. I want to be in Cyrodil and face people who have either spent 15 days in game or 300 days and know the deciding factor in our fights will be strategy and skill. Elite players will always have a leg up from casuals in a Cyrodil that functions like this.

Here's a suggestion: why don't we cap cp at 500 points at the time that VR16, imperial city, etc comes out? Anyone who has more than that will be reset to 500 and wait to gain more for 3-4 months, until the next content update. Sure some people will be bummed but those folks can still enjoy the content, and will be more powerful than everyone else. The majority of the player base would have plenty to work towards and may not even hit vr16 and the cp cap before the cp cap is raised again, say to 600 sometime in 2016.

In conclusion overall I appreciate the careful thought that Eric Wrobel and the rest of the team has put into updating the combat mechanics. Thanks for your hard work dude. We all believe in you guys, there's just more work to do to achieve the vision of what eso can be.

Domander · July 2015

I do not think even a 1000 champion point lead will = win. Give an advantage? sure, but that's the point isn't it?

I also think they should just shelve getting rid of the VR levels, they add a great way to experience the other alliances, and instead of spending resources turning the game upside down and inside out trying to remove them could be used to expand/improve/bug fix the game. Do they take a long time? yeah, and it took me a very long time before my first max character. (I like alts) That's ok, it's an mmorpg. It should take a while to reach max level.

Junkogen · July 2015

Deltia wrote: »

Hello ESO Forums,

I posted this on my website but I know ZOS reads these forums so I figured I'd share my thoughts here. I'm one person the sea of awesome people that love this game. With the announcement of increase in Veteran Ranks I'd like to leave my feedback whether you agree or not. And here's what I have to say about the problem and fixing it.

Before I start I want to make clear where my opinions come from. I make my living playing THIS video game only. Not only that, but it's my primary means of socialization. Over the past two years (including beta), I've been infatuated with the idea of a multiplayer Elder Scrolls Game. Not to mention the help that ZOS has personally given me. I still love ESO, but I'm not going to blindly follow a games growth that does not fit my needs. Just realize the passion I have for this game, it's community and developers runs deep.

VR 16?

Within the same breath, Eric Wrobel said they still have long term plans of removing Veteran Ranks (VR), but for the new content they are increasing it by two thus making end game VR 16. At this point, I think it's clear that Veteran Ranks aren't going away, ANYTIME in the future. I have eight VR 14s and the problem I have with this isn't the time investment to re-level all those characters, or the fully legendary gear, but the constant deception about not adding more Veteran Ranks. We as customers have a right to voice or opinions and/or a right to stop being customers. For me, it's time to pick one and voicing seems to be the best option.

I have defended their decisions as a business model constantly but this is one I cannot ignore. Adding Veteran Ranks is not content, it's busy work. Content is intractable quest, dungeon diving finding worthwhile rewards with friends, a working PvP system giving flexibility and choices. Yes, I know Imperial City is coming with this additional Veteran Ranks, but why increase the cap? "Deltia to increase the contents difficulty," well that's true in most MMOs but not ESO and that's due to the Champion System.

Champion Progression

Most games have a level cap that once reached, one works on optimizing gear and your individual skill for increased performance. However, ESO has the Champion System rendering time in game collecting XP as account progression. So take the most skilled PvPer in the world (let's say Sypher) vs. someone with 1,000 more champion points. Skill is irreverent at this point. Thus removing one of the core reasons I play MMOs and video games alike. Busy work trumps constantly improving yourself. Grinding mobs and CP is the new meta, not skill.

Take another game for instance, you have fully maxed out gear and have been playing for four years. Once a level increase hits, most players will be on an even playing field in terms of gear. So, there is some possibility of catching up to those folks that spend eight hours a day in game. Not ESO, there is no Champion Point catch up mechanic. The person at level 10 might be more powerful than someone at VR14 due to CP. Without a catch up mechanic or a way to limit zombie grinding macros and bots, you'll have a runaway performance gap the size the Grand Canyon.
The Fix

Someone like me benefits significantly from the Champion System. Having alts, grinding mobs and skills, etc just makes me VERY powerful. But it does not help new players, inexperienced ones nor the overall game. My good friend Parfax had an excellent suggestion, simply have seasons for Champion Points. Meaning, every three months or so, you could gain 100 CP. Once you reach that number, you have to wait for the reset. No more 100 v 1,000 CP fights. If that doesn't work, why not make CP have diminishing returns? So the first 300 are very easy to obtain, but everything beyond that is harder (similar to Alliance Ranks).

I'm all for account wide progression, but at what cost? At the cost that people grinding zombies ultimately win? At the cost that skill and performance are removed out of the game? I want to one day challenge Sypher in PvP without out grinding him. With skill, learning, getting my face kicked in by him over and over just to beat him one day with pure skill. Until this changes, the easier way for me to beat him is out grind him. Obtain such a mathematical advantage that no amount of skill can compensate. And that is the day that ESO dies.

Why I Give a ****

No I do not plan on leaving the game. I still love the combat, the people and the developers. But I'm no longer a bushy eyed fan-boy. I don't want to leave this game, this is my absolute favorite thing to do (well besides you know what). I've have (not had) such an emotional attachment to the land of Tamriel that I won't let it go just yet. But I'm not going to sit back and let another level increase happen without a true fix to the underlying problem, the Champion System.

Well said.

Although, I wish you would have added something about the huge shafting they announced for the Argonians as a passive "fix." They might actually listen to you. Between what you described in your post and the total fleecing of my Argonian NB after the removal of soft caps and the NB catalyst/potion synergy, this game feels very dead to me. I feel like a hamster stuck in a wheel, forced to replay content just to get some stupid racial passives that better match my playstyle and not feel like I'm being cheated somehow by playing as a handicapped race.

I have accounts on both the PC and PS4 and now don't care to play either. What a waste. Sad thing is, the devs don't care. They want me to start over and buy their stupid xp potions to catch up. Well, ZOS, you've done the opposite. You've pushed me away.

AzraelKrieg · July 2015

Domander wrote: »

I do not think even a 1000 champion point lead will = win. Give an advantage? sure, but that's the point isn't it?

I also think they should just shelve getting rid of the VR levels, they add a great way to experience the other alliances, and instead of spending resources turning the game upside down and inside out trying to remove them could be used to expand/improve/bug fix the game. Do they take a long time? yeah, and it took me a very long time before my first max character. (I like alts) That's ok, it's an mmorpg. It should take a while to reach max level.

They could get rid of the vet ranks and still have the Silver and Gold content afterwards. Just have the quests award skill points after so much XP gained as well as at the normal points so that it is equivalent to gaining the vet ranks.

michaelb14a_ESO2 · July 2015

Elhanan wrote: »

I personally hate the idea of veteran ranks, but I think most people are overreacting. I am actually reassured that they do still plan on getting rid of VRs. And this is coming from a guy with multiple tinfoil hats in his limited wardrobe.

ZOS needs to get true content out there soon, but addressing the problems of vet ranks would only delay this.

Everyone wants new content with improved gear, but how do you suggest improving gear without new veteran ranks? Sure, we all have our own ideas/opinions of how to do this. You could scrap the VR system now and create a new system for gear itemization, but that would take more time when people are already furious about the length between true content patches. Or you could choose the lesser of two evils by temporarily adding 2 veteran ranks (vs. more time before true content) in order to provide a good content update including Imperial City and tons of new gear options.

Sure, they could have kept this as VR14, but the “gear grind” is inevitable. They have already stated that gear would incrementally increase in power/stats as each “season (aka content patches)” rolled around. Adding 2 more VR levels is truly no different and this (gear progression) is exactly the reason they have added the levels. The fact that they are significantly reducing the time to level to max veteran rank (more xp for quests AND reduces xp to level) argues against any criticisms of it being purely "busy work."

Finally a voice of reason in this hissy-fit-of-a-thread

Ysne58 · July 2015

I have 44 cp points. One thing that would help would be to allow people to start earning those points from the very beginning. Other than that I do like Gidorick's recommendation.

Iselin · July 2015

I admit I haven't read the whole thread, just the OP, but I got a bit lost...

I fully understand someone who has invested in several gold-geared V14 characters being pissed about having to re-gear for just a couple of VRs more...

I also understand the disappointment of being told the champion system would replace the VR system, then seeing them both side by side and getting strong indications that the VR system is really not going away despite emphatic words to the contrary.

But I got lost when the OP changed the post to be all about the problems with the champion system. What I got out of it: you don't like bananas because apples suck.

mtwiggz · July 2015

I would prefer to never have to grind another level, EVER, again. I would love to have a VR14 of every class, but the grind is far too taxing for many of us.

With that said, the real issue with the game in its current state is the CP system. The only real area you notice it at this point is in PvP. Eventually it will close in on PvE as characters blow other characters DPS out of the water. There are already DPS requirements some guilds go with for trial runs, which are not easily obtained without having many champion points.

At this point I'm sitting around 200 champion points. Which I thought was quite good until talking with some of my other friends about it. Most of them are sitting 300, 400 or even over 500 already.

While not being picked to do a dungeon, trial or DSA run due to my lack of DPS doesn't bother me, the soon to be blatant gap in PvP does. With one of the most well known ESO PvP players coming in here and telling you he is already concerned with the CP difference, I hope you guys there at ZoS don't just brush this all off your shoulders.

PS; the incoming nerfs are completely ridiculous too.

Vaelen · July 2015

mtwiggz wrote: »

I would prefer to never have to grind another level, EVER, again. I would love to have a VR14 of every class, but the grind is far too taxing for many of us.

With that said, the real issue with the game in its current state is the CP system. The only real area you notice it at this point is in PvP. Eventually it will close in on PvE as characters blow other characters DPS out of the water. There are already DPS requirements some guilds go with for trial runs, which are not easily obtained without having many champion points.

At this point I'm sitting around 200 champion points. Which I thought was quite good until talking with some of my other friends about it. Most of them are sitting 300, 400 or even over 500 already.

While not being picked to do a dungeon, trial or DSA run due to my lack of DPS doesn't bother me, the soon to be blatant gap in PvP does. With one of the most well known ESO PvP players coming in here and telling you he is already concerned with the CP difference, I hope you guys there at ZoS don't just brush this all off your shoulders.

PS; the incoming nerfs are completely ridiculous too.

I sort of agree with the clear advantage thing in PvE, already with nearly 250 CPs I survive alot longer and deal alot more DPS than normally I would. I tested in a group with my lowbie character, lvl 49 DK and grouped with all veteran rank players, 1-10, most of them died in the group and yet I was able to solo many of the bosses in a silver pledge dungeon myself without their help. So there is obvious a difference in power, and it's pretty significant, I do agree. But the power creep issue, either needs to be more CPs, or more VRs. But adding more VRs to VR16 will mask the power difference between players with more or less CPs, which is currently an issue atm.

Phinix1 · July 2015

Sithisvoid wrote: »

...

Either you are incapable of seeing the point or worse, you just flat out refuse.

Every professional MMO realizes the need to have seasons and tiers and expansion stages for gear progression. You refuse to acknowledge the need to institute incremental caps on CP gain and believe that people with no job should just be allowed to mindlessly grind an activity which requires no skill whatsoever in order to gain a completely unfair advantage over new players.

You keep saying people that express concern over this real problem just "don't want to put in the time." That is a total BS answer and you know it. Or maybe you honestly don't? Really, nothing would surprise me on these forums anymore. But try for just a moment to put yourself in someone else's shows. I know it is difficult, but try.

A new player comes to the game a year after CP is released and people with no life that grind 24/7 are sitting on over 1000 CP. How can you possibly argue these new people just don't want to "put in the time?"

Should they magickally go back in time and grind out that year of CP at the mindless rate these grind zombies have been doing it (24/7, which would take a sane person with a job and a life more than twice that long) before they "earn" the right in your eyes to a fair and competitive PVP experience?

No sane person would tolerate that from a service they have paid for.

In every other PROFESSIONAL MMO, you have to complete 25-man raiding hard modes and get top ranked in arena to get the best of the best character/gear. Activities which require actual skill. Your argument is skill be damned, new players be damned, all you should need is lots of free time to mindlessly mash buttons in Cracked Troll and be rewarded with an unfair advantage that no new player or anyone with a life and responsibilities can possibly attain.

No offense, but I don't want people like you deciding when I have earned the right to a fair and balanced game where those with the most free time aren't given an unattainably unfair advantage for an activity which requires zero skill.

[Moderator Note: Removed moderated quote]

TheElementalPlatypus · July 2015

What if this was all a ploy and they knew people would be salty? What if they knew this would happen and used it as an excuse to delay Imperial City? (Insert Kappa here)

Phinix1 · July 2015

Sithisvoid wrote: »

...

Insults are a poor substitute for an actual argument.

Explain to me why exactly an activity that requires no skill, is exclusive to new players or 90% of the player base which has a life and responsibilities, and grants a completely unfair advantage destroying any semblance of fair play is a GOOD THING.

[Moderator Note: Removed moderated quote]

Sithisvoid · July 2015

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

...

The system is available to anyone. Put in the time you gain the rewards. Sounds fair to me.

[Moderator Note: Removed moderated quote]

Faulgor · July 2015

I don't quite get the people who say that Veteran Ranks are not the problem. The problem with Veteran Ranks is the same we now have with Champion Points:

- Separates the playerbase
- Low levels are not competitive
- Forces specific gameplay (silver/gold vs grinding)
- Takes too long to catch up

Granted, the Champion System takes this to new heights (except for gear gates, which are exclusive to Veteran Ranks), but fundamentally these are the same complaints that got them to commit to a VR removal. I don't think addressing one without the other will be satisfactory.

Regardless, the exp rewards need to be streamlined over all gameplay. There absolutely have to be more viable grind spots. There absolutely should not be penalties for playing in groups larger than 2 (!). Group dungeons absolutely have to give more exp - the more difficult the content, the better should the reward be. There absolutely have to be more repeatable quests (no, not daily) for those who don't like to grind. PvP absolutely needs to be a viable alternative to PvE.

And regarding new content: The game already has a lot of content, but it's not worth playing. Nobody runs Public Dungeons more than once. Nobody does the Craglorn delves more than once. Nobody does Shada's Tear or the other repeatable quests in Craglorn. Almost nobody does the Trials anymore.
Sure, new quests would be interesting, but those are not what keep people playing. That's repeatable, meaningful activities.

Phinix1 · July 2015

Sithisvoid wrote: »

... The system is available to anyone. Put in the time you gain the rewards. Sounds fair to me.

Keep ignoring the new player problem as if you just don't understand.

Your assumption that the system is open and anyone can do it is completely ignorant of the facts. That is what people are complaining about: The lack of a catch-up method.

Grinding CP is a LINEAR PROGRESSION. That means it requires X amount of hours/days/weeks/months to grind out those 1000 CP.

For a new player that joins the community a year after CP released, it has NOTHING to do with not wanting to spend the time. It has to do with the LINEAR CURVE. Do you get it yet? Let me elaborate.

In that year the people that have been 24/7 grinding now have 1000 CP to the new players 0. Even if that new player started doing nothing with their time in Tamriel other than mindlessly 24/7 grinding like these people have been, in say 1 month they will have only achieved 100 (or whatever) CP, yet that crowd that had been grinding are still grinding, and now have 1000 + 100.

The new player makes NO PROGRESS to catch up to the old 24/7 grinder.

Until you can address this problem I will assume you are just playing dumb on purpose to avoid talking about the obvious critical flaw in Zenimax's design.

[Moderator Note: Removed moderated quote]

Sithisvoid · July 2015

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

...

The system is available to anyone. Put in the time you gain the rewards. Sounds fair to me.[/quote]

Keep ignoring the new player problem as if you just don't understand.

Your assumption that the system is open and anyone can do it is completely ignorant of the facts. That is what people are complaining about: The lack of a catch-up method.

Grinding CP is a LINEAR PROGRESSION. That means it requires X amount of hours/days/weeks/months to grind out those 1000 CP.

For a new player that joins the community a year after CP released, it has NOTHING to do with not wanting to spend the time. It has to do with the LINEAR CURVE. Do you get it yet? Let me elaborate.

In that year the people that have been 24/7 grinding now have 1000 CP to the new players 0. Even if that new player started doing nothing with their time in Tamriel other than mindlessly 24/7 grinding like these people have been, in say 1 month they will have only achieved 100 (or whatever) CP, yet that crowd that had been grinding are still grinding, and now have 1000 + 100.

The new player makes NO PROGRESS to catch up to the old 24/7 grinder.

Until you can address this problem I will assume you are just playing dumb on purpose to avoid talking about the obvious critical flaw in Zenimax's design.
[/quote]

If you don't have the time to invest maybe MMO's aren't for you.

[Moderator Note: Removed moderated quote]

Phinix1 · July 2015

Sithisvoid wrote: »

show previous quotes

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

Sithisvoid wrote: »

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

Sithisvoid wrote: »

Sithisvoid wrote: »

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

Sithisvoid wrote: »

Time=Rewards and so far this is the only MMO really getting that. If they gank out Champion points and vet ranks this game turns into a single player elder scrolls game with a bland story, not much replay-ability and people like me moving on asap. I mean why stick around after that? For gear? Not that much floating around to keep me going years. New content? Not much being released. And then we all catch up to each other. Then what? we all skip around playing rock paper scissors until someone says a skill needs re-balancing? Then nerf and buff wars. I'm not ahead of anybody either. My highest character is a vr3 and i have 16 champion points. Know what i was going to do? Grind

Other MMO's reward time invested with better raid/pvp gear. The only difference is, they don't just allow the people with the most free time to run away with it to INFINITE extremes. They cap progress by seasons, expansions, raid tiers, etc., as it should be to maintain any semblance of fair play.

What is this "reward" you are talking about with regard to time spent? The unfair advantage over new players that have no hope of ever catching up? Sounds great for the person with no job or responsibilities that sits there and grinds 24/7, not so great for the majority of players. But I guess if you only think about yourself, it's a wonderful system.

I am sorry if the only joy some people get is to mindlessly invest "time" grinding in a troll cave in Cyrodiil until they have achieved the "reward" of a ridiculously imbalanced TTK and un-killable defenses against the average player, but I don't think we should throw away a great game to cater to people that need that sort of sense of "achievement" in order to justify playing.

I would rather see the game remain FAIR and BALANCED, and if that means these minority that need to have an unfair advantage gained by ABSOLUTELY NOTHING SKILLFUL WHATSOEVER OTHER THAN GRINDING FOR MONTHS ON END IN A CAVE will leave, then so be it, good riddance. Good luck finding ANY game that allows that sort of ridiculous unsportsmanlike unfair advantage. As you say, this broken CP system is the only game that got it "right" (TM).

Personally, I would rather keep the 90% of players that are happy with a reasonable season/tier/time-based limit to CP gain which maintains a FAIR and BALANCED gaming environment.

Good luck? well i FOUND the game it's called ESO so QQ more.

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

Sithisvoid wrote: »

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

Sithisvoid wrote: »

Time=Rewards and so far this is the only MMO really getting that. If they gank out Champion points and vet ranks this game turns into a single player elder scrolls game with a bland story, not much replay-ability and people like me moving on asap. I mean why stick around after that? For gear? Not that much floating around to keep me going years. New content? Not much being released. And then we all catch up to each other. Then what? we all skip around playing rock paper scissors until someone says a skill needs re-balancing? Then nerf and buff wars. I'm not ahead of anybody either. My highest character is a vr3 and i have 16 champion points. Know what i was going to do? Grind

Other MMO's reward time invested with better raid/pvp gear. The only difference is, they don't just allow the people with the most free time to run away with it to INFINITE extremes. They cap progress by seasons, expansions, raid tiers, etc., as it should be to maintain any semblance of fair play.

What is this "reward" you are talking about with regard to time spent? The unfair advantage over new players that have no hope of ever catching up? Sounds great for the person with no job or responsibilities that sits there and grinds 24/7, not so great for the majority of players. But I guess if you only think about yourself, it's a wonderful system.

I am sorry if the only joy some people get is to mindlessly invest "time" grinding in a troll cave in Cyrodiil until they have achieved the "reward" of a ridiculously imbalanced TTK and un-killable defenses against the average player, but I don't think we should throw away a great game to cater to people that need that sort of sense of "achievement" in order to justify playing.

I would rather see the game remain FAIR and BALANCED, and if that means these minority that need to have an unfair advantage gained by ABSOLUTELY NOTHING SKILLFUL WHATSOEVER OTHER THAN GRINDING FOR MONTHS ON END IN A CAVE will leave, then so be it, good riddance. Good luck finding ANY game that allows that sort of ridiculous unsportsmanlike unfair advantage. As you say, this broken CP system is the only game that got it "right" (TM).

Personally, I would rather keep the 90% of players that are happy with a reasonable season/tier/time-based limit to CP gain which maintains a FAIR and BALANCED gaming environment.

Good luck? well i FOUND the game it's called ESO so QQ more.In fact all I see here is a bunch of "wah I don't want to put the time in."

Either you are incapable of seeing the point or worse, you just flat out refuse.

Every professional MMO realizes the need to have seasons and tiers and expansion stages for gear progression. You refuse to acknowledge the need to institute incremental caps on CP gain and believe that people with no job should just be allowed to mindlessly grind an activity which requires no skill whatsoever in order to gain a completely unfair advantage over new players.

You keep saying people that express concern over this real problem just "don't want to put in the time." That is a total BS answer and you know it. Or maybe you honestly don't? Really, nothing would surprise me on these forums anymore. But try for just a moment to put yourself in someone else's shows. I know it is difficult, but try.

A new player comes to the game a year after CP is released and people with no life that grind 24/7 are sitting on over 1000 CP. How can you possibly argue these new people just don't want to "put in the time?"

Should they magickally go back in time and grind out that year of CP at the mindless rate these grind zombies have been doing it (24/7, which would take a sane person with a job and a life more than twice that long) before they "earn" the right in your eyes to a fair and competitive PVP experience.

No sane person would tolerate that from a service they have paid for.

All I see is a bunch of crybabies whining about two levels, sorry. Also, as previously stated, I AM a new player way behind. Do you see me crying like a newborn about how people put in time and got farther than me?

Insults are a poor substitute for an actual argument.

Explain to me why exactly an activity that requires no skill, is exclusive to new players or 90% of the player base which has a life and responsibilities, and grants a completely unfair advantage destroying any semblance of fair play is a GOOD THING.

Try to avoid points like "you're a poopy head sissy man" and if possible, use big words.

The system is available to anyone. Put in the time you gain the rewards. Sounds fair to me.

Keep ignoring the new player problem as if you just don't understand.

Your assumption that the system is open and anyone can do it is completely ignorant of the facts. That is what people are complaining about: The lack of a catch-up method.

Grinding CP is a LINEAR PROGRESSION. That means it requires X amount of hours/days/weeks/months to grind out those 1000 CP.

For a new player that joins the community a year after CP released, it has NOTHING to do with not wanting to spend the time. It has to do with the LINEAR CURVE. Do you get it yet? Let me elaborate.

In that year the people that have been 24/7 grinding now have 1000 CP to the new players 0. Even if that new player started doing nothing with their time in Tamriel other than mindlessly 24/7 grinding like these people have been, in say 1 month they will have only achieved 100 (or whatever) CP, yet that crowd that had been grinding are still grinding, and now have 1000 + 100.

The new player makes NO PROGRESS to catch up to the old 24/7 grinder.

Until you can address this problem I will assume you are just playing dumb on purpose to avoid talking about the obvious critical flaw in Zenimax's design.

If you don't have the time to invest maybe MMO's aren't for you.

So basically, you have no argument and are just going to repeat that over and over hoping someone will get annoyed/impressed.

This is why it is pointless to attempt to have an intelligent conversation on the internet.

Believe what you want man, I'm not going to waste my time talking to a broken record.

Sithisvoid · July 2015

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

...

Okay man have fun getting all worked up over silly stuff. TTYL

[Moderator Note: Removed moderated quote]

Soulshine · July 2015

@Deltia

Again, quoting myself here on this one but... when the championm system was still on PTS, I posted a link on this very forum to Sage's presentation at the guild summit about the grand plan regarding VR levels and the Champion system.

Over the course of an hour plus, he presented a number of things which still baffle me as to how ANYONE there thought they were good ideas. He even stated flat out at one point early into it that it would be "irresponsible" of them to put the champion system into the game on top of the VR system.

Well, that is actually what they did when all was said and done. VR is not going anyplace since they cannot figure out how to change it. And apparently.... someone at dev central thought and continues to think... if thinking is what you can call it... that some mere tweeks here and there of the stat caps, a few poor itemization changes, and adding 'elightenment' would be enough to offset any impending issues.

Well, apparently the "light" has finally set in, eh?

For the record, CP issues are not isolated to PvP either, since there are already PvE requirements beign thrown around for campion point tiers in raids. Some of us by the way, actually want to compete in PvE content WITHOUT PvP buffs, WITHOUT a minimum threshold of CPs on each team member and WITHOUT just lamblasting DPS to bypass all mechanics and render coordinated teamwork nill. Sound familiar? We would like to land on the leaderboards too, but that is not going to happen any more than you beating someone in PvP with skill vs ground out CPs way over someone else's.

Yet why anyone is surprised about any of this is beyond me; more VR ranks and no real disclosure of the content is totally irrelevant. It won't matter. People will hit V16 the day the update hits the game. Same as last time.

In fact at this point the "skill ship" for this game is so far out to sea there is no way to get it back to shore, short of a total rollback or complete system overhaul yet again. You are meantime just going to have to learn to sail without the usual compass and follow the stars... literally this time... since the constellations and the amount of points you throw into them are indeed all that count in this game, at least if you are talking about landing with both feet on the winning side of anything.

Either that.... or play another game... or lower your expectations, or... grind. Not much choice if you ask me since all manner of possible solutions which many of us have proposed have been completely ignored...

Wolfshead · July 2015

Well in normal mmo a lvl cap well only happen when game get a expansion but gave us no lvl cap just for add a content is joke that will mean if ZoS add 4 content patch per year that will 4 new lvl cap just in year which is beyond stupidity.

Let say the add 2 lvl per content patch that would be 8 new lvl in 1 year alone if the add 4 content patch per year.

I dont think ZoS even know what that would mean in long run that ESO would have more lvl grinder then any other mmo out there and that is not what mmo is all about just grinder lvl and the need let people have chance to catching-up not everyone is super fast lvler player the are them off us that still have life and familys outside this game and if the is go keep up to happen each time we get new content peolpe well stop play ESO for the never will have chance to catching-up.

olemanwinter · July 2015

100% spot on!

I said this before 1.6 even went live from testing on the PTS.

The difference between 100 CP and 1000 CP was MUCH MORE than the difference between VR1 and VR14.

Now, flash forward and this "replacement" for the Vet Rank system isn't replacing anything. It's augmenting it.

So, imagine the difference between a VR1 with 100CP and a VR14 with 1000 CP. And then add 2 more VR ranks.

It's a system designed to discourage participation.

In the end....and I called it back in my ORIGINAL THREAD HERE....they will have to completely relaunch this game again. I'm not talking about a "catch up mechanic"....I mean a full blown relaunch like we saw with Unlimited if they don't immediately reverse course.

It may already be too late. They have created a system where people are pulling so far ahead that the only solution possible will be to simply wipe it all away and relevel everyone. Probably accompanied by a transition to full F2P and P2W.

Deltia · July 2015

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Thank you, everyone, for taking the time to give us your feedback, and for keeping it constructive. We'll be sure to pass this along to the appropriate teams to read over.

TY for reading and replying. Means a lot and I know how hard you folks on the community team work.

michaelb14a_ESO2 · July 2015

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

show previous quotes

Sithisvoid wrote: »

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

Sithisvoid wrote: »

Sithisvoid wrote: »

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

Sithisvoid wrote: »

Time=Rewards and so far this is the only MMO really getting that. If they gank out Champion points and vet ranks this game turns into a single player elder scrolls game with a bland story, not much replay-ability and people like me moving on asap. I mean why stick around after that? For gear? Not that much floating around to keep me going years. New content? Not much being released. And then we all catch up to each other. Then what? we all skip around playing rock paper scissors until someone says a skill needs re-balancing? Then nerf and buff wars. I'm not ahead of anybody either. My highest character is a vr3 and i have 16 champion points. Know what i was going to do? Grind

Other MMO's reward time invested with better raid/pvp gear. The only difference is, they don't just allow the people with the most free time to run away with it to INFINITE extremes. They cap progress by seasons, expansions, raid tiers, etc., as it should be to maintain any semblance of fair play.

What is this "reward" you are talking about with regard to time spent? The unfair advantage over new players that have no hope of ever catching up? Sounds great for the person with no job or responsibilities that sits there and grinds 24/7, not so great for the majority of players. But I guess if you only think about yourself, it's a wonderful system.

I am sorry if the only joy some people get is to mindlessly invest "time" grinding in a troll cave in Cyrodiil until they have achieved the "reward" of a ridiculously imbalanced TTK and un-killable defenses against the average player, but I don't think we should throw away a great game to cater to people that need that sort of sense of "achievement" in order to justify playing.

I would rather see the game remain FAIR and BALANCED, and if that means these minority that need to have an unfair advantage gained by ABSOLUTELY NOTHING SKILLFUL WHATSOEVER OTHER THAN GRINDING FOR MONTHS ON END IN A CAVE will leave, then so be it, good riddance. Good luck finding ANY game that allows that sort of ridiculous unsportsmanlike unfair advantage. As you say, this broken CP system is the only game that got it "right" (TM).

Personally, I would rather keep the 90% of players that are happy with a reasonable season/tier/time-based limit to CP gain which maintains a FAIR and BALANCED gaming environment.

Good luck? well i FOUND the game it's called ESO so QQ more.

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

Sithisvoid wrote: »

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

Sithisvoid wrote: »

Time=Rewards and so far this is the only MMO really getting that. If they gank out Champion points and vet ranks this game turns into a single player elder scrolls game with a bland story, not much replay-ability and people like me moving on asap. I mean why stick around after that? For gear? Not that much floating around to keep me going years. New content? Not much being released. And then we all catch up to each other. Then what? we all skip around playing rock paper scissors until someone says a skill needs re-balancing? Then nerf and buff wars. I'm not ahead of anybody either. My highest character is a vr3 and i have 16 champion points. Know what i was going to do? Grind

Other MMO's reward time invested with better raid/pvp gear. The only difference is, they don't just allow the people with the most free time to run away with it to INFINITE extremes. They cap progress by seasons, expansions, raid tiers, etc., as it should be to maintain any semblance of fair play.

What is this "reward" you are talking about with regard to time spent? The unfair advantage over new players that have no hope of ever catching up? Sounds great for the person with no job or responsibilities that sits there and grinds 24/7, not so great for the majority of players. But I guess if you only think about yourself, it's a wonderful system.

I am sorry if the only joy some people get is to mindlessly invest "time" grinding in a troll cave in Cyrodiil until they have achieved the "reward" of a ridiculously imbalanced TTK and un-killable defenses against the average player, but I don't think we should throw away a great game to cater to people that need that sort of sense of "achievement" in order to justify playing.

I would rather see the game remain FAIR and BALANCED, and if that means these minority that need to have an unfair advantage gained by ABSOLUTELY NOTHING SKILLFUL WHATSOEVER OTHER THAN GRINDING FOR MONTHS ON END IN A CAVE will leave, then so be it, good riddance. Good luck finding ANY game that allows that sort of ridiculous unsportsmanlike unfair advantage. As you say, this broken CP system is the only game that got it "right" (TM).

Personally, I would rather keep the 90% of players that are happy with a reasonable season/tier/time-based limit to CP gain which maintains a FAIR and BALANCED gaming environment.

Good luck? well i FOUND the game it's called ESO so QQ more.In fact all I see here is a bunch of "wah I don't want to put the time in."

Either you are incapable of seeing the point or worse, you just flat out refuse.

Every professional MMO realizes the need to have seasons and tiers and expansion stages for gear progression. You refuse to acknowledge the need to institute incremental caps on CP gain and believe that people with no job should just be allowed to mindlessly grind an activity which requires no skill whatsoever in order to gain a completely unfair advantage over new players.

You keep saying people that express concern over this real problem just "don't want to put in the time." That is a total BS answer and you know it. Or maybe you honestly don't? Really, nothing would surprise me on these forums anymore. But try for just a moment to put yourself in someone else's shows. I know it is difficult, but try.

A new player comes to the game a year after CP is released and people with no life that grind 24/7 are sitting on over 1000 CP. How can you possibly argue these new people just don't want to "put in the time?"

Should they magickally go back in time and grind out that year of CP at the mindless rate these grind zombies have been doing it (24/7, which would take a sane person with a job and a life more than twice that long) before they "earn" the right in your eyes to a fair and competitive PVP experience.

No sane person would tolerate that from a service they have paid for.

All I see is a bunch of crybabies whining about two levels, sorry. Also, as previously stated, I AM a new player way behind. Do you see me crying like a newborn about how people put in time and got farther than me?

Insults are a poor substitute for an actual argument.

Explain to me why exactly an activity that requires no skill, is exclusive to new players or 90% of the player base which has a life and responsibilities, and grants a completely unfair advantage destroying any semblance of fair play is a GOOD THING.

Try to avoid points like "you're a poopy head sissy man" and if possible, use big words.

The system is available to anyone. Put in the time you gain the rewards. Sounds fair to me.

Keep ignoring the new player problem as if you just don't understand.

Your assumption that the system is open and anyone can do it is completely ignorant of the facts. That is what people are complaining about: The lack of a catch-up method.

Grinding CP is a LINEAR PROGRESSION. That means it requires X amount of hours/days/weeks/months to grind out those 1000 CP.

For a new player that joins the community a year after CP released, it has NOTHING to do with not wanting to spend the time. It has to do with the LINEAR CURVE. Do you get it yet? Let me elaborate.

In that year the people that have been 24/7 grinding now have 1000 CP to the new players 0. Even if that new player started doing nothing with their time in Tamriel other than mindlessly 24/7 grinding like these people have been, in say 1 month they will have only achieved 100 (or whatever) CP, yet that crowd that had been grinding are still grinding, and now have 1000 + 100.

The new player makes NO PROGRESS to catch up to the old 24/7 grinder.

Until you can address this problem I will assume you are just playing dumb on purpose to avoid talking about the obvious critical flaw in Zenimax's design.

Why is that any different than the standard 1-50? 1-VR14? A level 1 player faces the exact same "gap" regardless of CP or not. The only difference now is the "end game" is substantially longer and removes the zero progression found at VR14. Basically what your saying is that the ONLY way for it to be fair is if new players know that the the people who have been playing longer are hard capped and literally can't progress any further.

Are you saying this mental reassurance is what matters? Because literally, there is no difference between 1-50, 1-VR14 or 1-VR3,600. A level 10, doesn't stand a chance in PVE or PVP when comparing "power" to even a level 50, why do you care so much that rather than referring top level as "VR14" or level 50", now it's "level" 50 + VRXX + XXXX CP?

If we view CP as "levels" doesn't your entire argument fly out the window since a level 1 is SUPPOSED to be weaker than a level 10?..... and people grind levels all the time.

The new player makes NO PROGRESS to catch up to the old 24/7 grinder.

I disagree. First that grinder is capped at XXXX CP. There is a max. Also, CP has diminishing returns, meaning that a player becomes exponentially more powerful with significantly less time invested. ESPECIALLY when they first enter the CP and initially begin to gather points.

Joy_Division · July 2015

Thank you @Deltia for expressing your thoughts.

Like you, my biggest problem here is not that I'd have to "grind" two more vet levels (done in a matter of days) or that I'd have to update my gear (I was going to do that anyway).

It is that ZoS has failed to follow through competently on something they promised a long time ago and all indications are they are incapable of doing it. They talked about removing Vet ranks last year. They have given us zero insight as to their progress and instead continue to exacerbate the underlying problem by adding more.

The Champion System is creating a huge balance problem. Right now, my sorcerer - in my DPS setup - just tanked Dragonstar Arena and did not die a single time. She is rank 37 in sword & shield. That same sorcerer with the same setup healed Veteran City of Ash despite having zero anything devoted to healing at all. This is supposed to be amongst the top challenging content in the game! Everyday that goes by with people nuking zombies for hours a day further worsens this problem where the gap between player power and the baseline difficulty level of the game widens.

ZoS right now does not seem to understand two problems are plaguing their game. The first is near infinite resources. It is very frustrating to see them impose band-aid solutions such as artificially restricting the number of times we can block, dodge-roll, or bolt escape, without even attempting to tackle the reason why we can do these things permanently: regen rates that are way too high. I don't even try to run a sustain build - all my gear is devoted to damage - and I have not once run out of magicka in Cyordiil since 1.6.

The second has been here since launch: it was always more advantageous to nuke zombies and AoE spiders to increase your power than actually playing the game as intended (i.e. doing content such as quests, dungeons, trials, etc.). In my "raid" guild, ostensibly there for people who enjoy raiding, we had members not join our Sanctum Raids because they were too concerned about falling behind the power curve because they could be nuking goblins in Crack Wood Cave instead. Ridiculous state of affairs.

lathbury · July 2015

Joy_Division wrote: »

The second has been here since launch: it was always more advantageous to nuke zombies and AoE spiders to increase your power than actually playing the game as intended (i.e. doing content such as quests, dungeons, trials, etc.). In my "raid" guild, ostensibly there for people who enjoy raiding, we had members not join our Sanctum Raids because they were too concerned about falling behind the power curve because they could be nuking goblins in Crack Wood Cave instead. Ridiculous state of affairs.

Yeah this is a ridiculous state of affairs and the poor raid itemization just exacerbates it

dodgehopper_ESO · July 2015

AJTC5000 wrote: »

Well it seems my big-ass comment got deleted, and I can't remember anything that I wrote. And now my fingers hurt. I think the main points were:

1. Parfax's solution - Needs a bit more of a boost to the new players or else there's going to be a constantly increasing gap of people getting 100 CP and new players getting maybe 20 or 30 CP.
2. VR16 - I did a maths calculation regarding the 15% decrease in XP gain you need, so from VR1-16 you actually only need 13.6m XP rather than 14m XP, so they've tried to make it easier. To what avail I don't know.
3. VR16 - For Orsinium I presume. This is the one factor I actually agree with, as we need to see some kind of progression for this new area. I'd still be going even if it wasn't increased (lore-wh*re/completionist all the way), but I fear the grind-y players won't agree

Feel free to argue with this, I might remember some points in the replies

This is where I think they could really stand out. Instead of making it about levels, maybe as you unlock new areas and complete new tasks you could actually unlock a special skill, or skill line. It doesn't have to be about levels.

I have to say I'm really torn about the Champion System. I like it for the most part, and I don't really see the problem with it in PvE. Who cares if some other guy has way more CP than I do in PVE. If I can't perform at his level I'm sure there's people more my speed who are willing to team up. Just because you're not the leaderboard guy doesn't mean you can't have fun. In PVP though I definitely can see there being problems with it, and perhaps they need to arrange PVP Tiers for CP. I've thought this for some time, and I actually posted about it when this system was being discussed early on. Blackwater Blade definitely needs to have a couple of alternatives, one of which is a newbie pvp zone that gags CP. New players need a chance to get their feet wet without having to face some guy way over the top in power (both in gear and in CP).

BrassRazoo · July 2015

...your Mum gets to clean the spare room.

Roselle · July 2015

You know what's sad?

Watch these two videos in this particular order.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8ir8rVl2Z4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KaqC5FnvAEc

RIP x2