The Day ESO Dies

washlov

here are some ideas for a fair CP system

Rune_Relic wrote: »

They don't need to remove it and replace it with something else with 6 months of work.
All they need to do is add a CHAMPION BAR with 3 slots.
1 Warrior passive can be loaded.
1 Thief passive can be loaded.
1 Mage passive can be loaded.

Now it doesn't matter how many CP you have as you can only use 3 passive out of the 36.

People can grind away to their hearts content.
Someone with 300 CP will be just as powerful as anyone with 3600 CP..except they wont have 36 passive skills to choose from.

The stam/mag/health from each CP has to be nerfed though.

No power creep.
No power gap.
No gated content.
Endless progression
No gated endgame
Forced Build diversity.

sample

Warrior/The Lord/Heavy Armor Focus: Increases your Armor by 13% while wearing 5 or more pieces of heavy armor.

Thief/The Lover/Mooncalf: Increases your Stamina Recovery by 25%.

Mage/The Ritual/Piercing: Increases the amount of Armor your physical attacks ignore by 25%.


sample 2

Warrior/The Steed/Medium Armor Focus: Increases your Armor by 13% when a Medium Armor set of 5 or more pieces is equipped.

Thief/The Tower/Warlord: Reduces the Stamina cost of spells and abilities by 15.8%.

Mage/The Ritual/Precise Strikes: Increases the critical damage of your physical attacks by 25%.


these are two stamina builds but completely different
it would make the CS experimental and make the chars different
it would make the boring linear system where everybody get the same passives interesting and would make it meaningful

Faulgor wrote: »

How would you handle the perks that unlock automatically, like Precise Strike? Would I have to slot those as well, or are they always active?

may than put the Warrior/Mage/Thief restriction away

if you take one perk get the one with the 10 points
if you take two perks get also the one with the 30 points
if you take three perks from one line get all four the fourth is a bonus cause you are a specialist now


sample

Warrior/The Steed/Passive Buffs

one perk:

Invigorating Bash
Gives you a 20% chance to restore 5 Health when you bash an enemy.

two perks:

Phase
After roll dodging, your Armor and Spell Resistance is increased by 1000 for 3 seconds.

three perks(the steed master):

Shield Expert
Increases the Armor and Spell Resistance of equipped Shields by 75%.

Reinforced
When activating block gain a damage shield for 1900 every 10 seconds.


alternative idea

if you take one perk get the one with the 10 points
if you take two perks get the one with the 30 points
if you take three perks get the one with the 75 points

the 120 point perks could be specialist perks which one can be chosen if you have 3 perks of one guardian constellation

so if you have 3 perks choosen from Warrior you would be a specialist and can choose one from:


Reinforced: When activating block gain a damage shield for 1900 every 10 seconds.

Unchained:Reduces the Stamina cost of abilities by 80% for 3 seconds after breaking free of a stun, knockdown, fear, disorient, or stagger.

Determination:Absorbs 1950 damage for 15 seconds after drinking a potion.

you would be a Master Warrior

Sacadon

As long as CPs are earned via a no-skill required mechanic such as grinding, we have a problem. Catch-up mechanics are just a bandaid. Earning of CP needs to be tied to the accomplishment of end game content or challenges and not given to those who have a lot of time on their hands.

jluchau

I have to say this. Like many of you I have been around since beta. I love TES and I love ESO. I've subbed since day one and still do. I have seen changes come and have tried to be open minded about them all. I am not a hard core player. I am mediocre at most all aspects of this game. I don't have the time to play that is required to be truly great. That is one reason why I love what @Deltia does so much. I tell you this so you will know where I am coming from on my point of view.

I don't care about the VR change. I don't. I expect with a continuation of content there will be a continuation of character progression. Its the nature of the beast and i'm willing to go along with it. My main is VR12 and i don't know when I will get to "end game". Thats not to say I like the VR system. I don't like it. I feel like it is too slow to level. I'm the kind of guy who is encouraged by making some kind of progress each time i play, or at least every 2 or 3 seasons. But VR isn't really the problem. The problem, and what is most damaging to the average player, is the CP system. For a player like me, I see the VR system and I say slow and steady and i'll get there some day. But the CP system is different, its so immense and I am so far behind that I feel I can never catch up. I will never be able to grind out the CP's that others have. So a large portion of this game will be lost to me. I love and will always love the PvE aspect of this game, but when considering Elder Scrolls ONLINE , the thing that draws is the chance to play with friends. That means PvP, Dungeons and Trials. Well, I can't catch up, people won't want to play with me, I will be forever the weak link. The "catch up" method currently in place isn't enough... I'm enlightened all the time, it doesn't matter... the current CP system means i can never even be mediocre at end game.

I won't pretend I have a great solution, I don't. I'm not a game designer. I don't have the skill set to fix this problem. But, as a game player I feel the problem weighing me down every time I log in. Please, please, please... consider some way to fix this issue. I will stick around, I will continue to wait, I will trust you are taking us somewhere good... but at some point, enough will be enough.

Kaitona

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Thank you, everyone, for taking the time to give us your feedback, and for keeping it constructive. We'll be sure to pass this along to the appropriate teams to read over.

You're welcome.

Gidorick

Champion System needs an ACTUAL Catch-Up Mechanic. Simply lowering XP required for X number of CPs or Capping CPs only provides temporary solutions.

• The benefit to lowering XP required for X number of CPs doesn't benefit those who have to earn the next CP after they earn whatever the amount of CPs are. At that point we will simply have the same problem we have now... it's just that most players will have gotten an easy handful of CPs.
• Capping CPs actively hinders players who like to grind so that players beneath them can catch up. It also doesn't address that in 2 years players will be running around with 2500 CPs and new players will be faced with the exact same problem we are trying to avoid.

I have this in a separate thread but everyone seems to have latched onto this thread to post ideas so... here it goes:

Gidorick wrote: »

There is currently quite a bit of concern regarding player catching up to legacy players when it comes to Champion Points (CP). Well, here’s my suggestion:

@ZOS should implement a curved buff scale so that the lower number of CPs a character has in comparison to the highest number of CPs that any character has on a server, the faster that character earns CPs.

A player with 100 CPs would earn their next CP faster if the highest number of CPs on the server is 1000 than they would if the highest number of CPs was only 500. The higher the maximum number of CPs that has been earned on the server, the faster those with a lower number of CPs will earn Champion Points.

Using this CP XO Buff Percentage, CPs will not be earned any faster by the community, but players would be able to climb that CP ladder more quickly. Using the maximum number of CPs to determine the buff also means that the higher the number of CPs that have been earned, the faster lower CP earners will be able to catch up. The highest possible Buff percentage could also be determined by the highest number of CPs earned on the server.

Using two scales, if the most CPs that any player currently has is 600 CPs, the maximum buff any player can have is about 15%. This would leave us with the following approximations:

• 60 CP = 15% buff
• 300 CP = 12% buff
• 500 CP = 8% buff

These numbers increase dramatically the more CPs are earned. If the most CPs that any player has is 2500 CPs, the maximum buff any player can have is about 210%. This would leave us with the following approximations:

• 100 CP = 210% buff
• 500 CP = 201% buff
• 1000 CP = 189% buff
• 2000 CP = 126% buff

Now, these specific percentages aren’t by any means gospel or exactly what I’m suggesting here. The rate of the curved scale of either the Buff Percentage or the Buff Rate could be altered one way or the other.

What I’m suggesting is a mechanic where there is a percentage of a buff applied to players who have less than the top number of CPs and that buff should be dependent on how many CPs the top player on the server has earned. This would not in any way change the rate of community XP gain, but would, instead, change the rate at which new players are able to catch up to older players. This mechanic should exist independently from and underneath Enlightenment, XP Pots, and Crown XP Scrolls.

These mechanics will close the inevitable CP gap but would not undermine the accomplishments of those players that have gone out and earned the most CPs.

Thoughts?

Original Thread: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/184576/champion-points-catch-up-mechanic-concept/p1

lathbury

also would like to add it shouldn't take someone like deltia to come here to get a response on this at all its been brought up since the system was in beta.
I'm of the opinion that most of this problem was caused by the devs not paying attention to the community and acting on it. rather they have paid attention to certain guilds and personalities and numbers.

They were told in beta and probably before that they lacked content and that also a large enough portion of players wanted to see the other factions zones on their main. so they recycled content lazily and came up with the almost universally despised silver gold system as a band aid fix . which maybe would have been ok if they had stuck to thier target of regular meaningful content as then silver gold would have been one of many routes in game now to endgame.
They then saw that people weren't doing that and had no content for them at said endgame so nerfed all the grind spots further forcing people into this time sink filler content.

once the shouts on the forum got loud enough about not wanting to do VR leveling someone must have panicked and said look they want VET ranks gone. When even a cursory glance at the actual complaints would have made clear that actually forced silver and gold were the problem. so they decided the champion system would keep us busy and hopefully buy enough time for them to release enough content to enable a true progression system with multiple ways to cap without forced content.

Unfortunately in the rush to throw this band aid over the vet rank band aid no one took the time to listen to pts testers who had tried 3600 cp's and were like erm hang on this is a very powerful vertical progression system.

so here we are and we can expect more vet ranks after these as they add new content untill we reach the point
where we have enough choices and ways to get exp. Then I envision them balancing it all by removing both vrs and cp's and adding the combined exp to a new system and scaling content and pvp servers and itemisation that way.
which would explain why its a long term goal now.

Elhanan

I personally hate the idea of veteran ranks, but I think most people are overreacting. I am actually reassured that they do still plan on getting rid of VRs. And this is coming from a guy with multiple tinfoil hats in his limited wardrobe.

ZOS needs to get true content out there soon, but addressing the problems of vet ranks would only delay this.

Everyone wants new content with improved gear, but how do you suggest improving gear without new veteran ranks? Sure, we all have our own ideas/opinions of how to do this. You could scrap the VR system now and create a new system for gear itemization, but that would take more time when people are already furious about the length between true content patches. Or you could choose the lesser of two evils by temporarily adding 2 veteran ranks (vs. more time before true content) in order to provide a good content update including Imperial City and tons of new gear options.

Sure, they could have kept this as VR14, but the “gear grind” is inevitable. They have already stated that gear would incrementally increase in power/stats as each “season (aka content patches)” rolled around. Adding 2 more VR levels is truly no different and this (gear progression) is exactly the reason they have added the levels. The fact that they are significantly reducing the time to level to max veteran rank (more xp for quests AND reduces xp to level) argues against any criticisms of it being purely "busy work."

pmn100b16_ESO

lathbury wrote: »

Wait I thought i was alone in this thinking been saying for a while now vet ranks aren't the problem it was only having 2 extremely boring repetitive ways to get them (grindin or silver gold). the real problem is CP's and there effect how do you even balance new content for 2 v16 characters one with 100 cps the other with 500?

when it comes to pvp and new players its even worse.
my only thing is why has it took the community so long to wake up to this when a few of us could see this imbalance coming as soon as a vertical endless progression system was announced.

January 18th:

pmn100b16_ESO wrote: »

I think the OP is asking how end game dungeons/trials etc are going to be balanced. An example, a year down the line, there are going to be players with say 1000 CPs and lv50, and you're going to have new players hit lv 50 with 1 CP point.

If these people are to play the same endgame content (lv 50), how will the dungeons etc be balanced to cater for the gulf in CPs between these two players?

February 26th:

pmn100b16_ESO wrote: »

I had concerns with the CP system along time ago in regards to pvp. Currently if you are a v14 and you fight another v14, you know that whoever wins has the better skill/build (class balance aside), you know its an even playing field. With CP points, the imbalances mean there are no longer going to be even fights. Someone grinding quests/mobs all day to get CP would have a distinct advantage over someone that hops online of an evening to play a couple hours of pvp. After just a couple of months of this, you're going to find 'good' players in pvp simply based on how many cps they got. The casual way you can currently play in cyrodiil (i.e. as your time permits) will be over.

When I bought this up some time ago in a thread, lots of people just said 'someone that's played for a year should be better than someone who's just started'. Seems some people are really invested in the idea of steamrolling a bunch of new players and passing it off as skill. My view is a new player to pvp should be on an even footing, otherwise whats the point of playing. The new guy isn't going to play because he'll be getting trashed by the cp grinding vet without a hope of catching up, and personally, as a possible cp grinding vet, I wouldn't want to be trashing a bunch of new players everyday.

This system is going to cause too many imbalances, and cryodiil is about to become an even more frustrating experience than it already is. Those with the view that old players should be godly OP compared to new players need to take more consideration into the future health of the game, not the short term gain of some epeen stroking cheesy mass cyrodiil killing spree.

Gidorick

lol, yea @pmn100b16_ESO. This "issue" has been discussed a LOT on this forum. Maybe it will finally get some attention from ZOS.

MissBizz

Gidorick wrote: »

@MissBizz. I don't think ZOS' currently planned catch-up mechanic plan (what we know of anyway) will be sufficient. It simply lowers the amount of XP it takes to earn the first however-many CPs. It's NOT a "catch-up" plan, it's a "gap-closer" plan. The situation we are in now will happen again and again ZOS will be forced to lower the amount of XP required for however-many-more CPs.

This is why my suggestion HERE creates a catch-up mechanic that will dynamically apply an XP earning buff that is based on the most CP any one player has earned and the amount of CP a player currently has. This way, the more CPs that are earned by the top players, the faster those with fewer CPs will earn their next CPs.

Lowering how much XP CPs costs is a short term fix. My concept would be a long-term solution.

@Gidorick I had previously read your proposal and do agree its fantastic.

pmn100b16_ESO

Gidorick wrote: »

lol, yea @pmn100b16_ESO. This "issue" has been discussed a LOT on this forum. Maybe it will finally get some attention from ZOS.

And in that February post I say "when I brought this up some time ago". I can't even be bothered to find that post, but yeah, some people have been banging this drum for a while now.

Dcaliber

I 100% agree. I don't see myself playing this game much longer if the vet/CP system is in it's current state. The game is great until endgame. (VR1)

Lionxoft

Your opinion is no different than the others that gave their feedback while 1.6 was on the PTS except it's about 5-6 months late. We've been railing this same feedback for ages already. We told them that their system was nearsighted and then Sage and Aliprando queued up their exit music.

The VR increase has never helped anyone complete content. It's an excuse. Plain and simple. Black on white.

TheElementalPlatypus

I think we can all safely agree on one thing from this thread, does ZOS actually listen to anything? and if they do DO they THINK about changes?

There have been NUMEROUS suggestions for CP System 100x better than the current one and these are by people making it up off the top of their head, we thought ZOS was a competent and professional company but its clear if they cant think of a system better than some random who made it in 10 minutes, we have our answer.

BladeBoques, whileI feel he overreacted a tad to the removal of former emp buffs he summed it up

ZOS is not a trustable company

Sure changes are expected in an MMO, heck they are needed.
But wouldnt it be nice to have a sense of openness with ZOS? as if they arent hiding anything?

Even when they do make changes, or balances, I would bet my money 100% of the time they take it overboard.

They are like a kid's dad who is living out his childhood THROUGH his child by making them play sports/something etc. They OVERDO it far too hard.

It doesnt take a lot of thought to come up with a solution for class balance that can really not be too over or underwhelming. I dont think ZOS has changed anything templar wise beside a bunch of nerfs and about 160000000 lies about fixing the delay on toppling charge. They've managed to create a pvp meta in which its zerg or oneshot or die. Sorc and NB wouldnt be in the "OP" position they are in now if mobility and escaping zergs and being able to one shot wasnt the current meta. Sorc/NB have the highest regens for stam/magic (stam NB/magic sorc) with the best defense and offense of their kinds making DK/Templar close to useless outside of groups. The only way to play solo in this game is to have a good combo of all 3 of those things, sure a nirn DK is possible and even other types of DK's but they cant survive nearly as much as sorc/nb. Templars get the same fix every patch (we fixed the delay), maybe we would believe it ZOS if you didnt patch it 70 different times.

All I see is an untrustworthy company trying to make balances having less knowledge about the current meta and balance of their own game than most new players. Maybe they do, but they sure as heck dont show it in how they react with class balance and gameplay changes.

CP system needs to be changed, and if it is, then great. But I laugh that it has taken ZOS this long to notice it, even though I still doubt they will do anything.

acolyte2475b14_ESO

Gidorick wrote: »

acolyte2475b14_ESO wrote: »

The problem is that solo content takes a hell of a lot of time and money to create. It's a developmental act of love. With ESO we are pretty much talking 7 years to create the core game if you go by their own admission to starting in 2007.

This is why MMO's so often opt out of solo content or when they create it can usually be blow though in a few days by even the most casual of players.

It's just so much easier to raise a few levels, add a few skills, or develope a new game mechanic.

To be fair, they created the engine they're using from just about scratch, the first few years was probably them nailing down the engine.

I agree with that. But that still means that all that does is shave a few years off the creation of meaningfull content that still takes years to make. It's hard. The day someone figures out how to cut the deveopment time of meaningfull content down to months, kiss reality goodbye because that will be the most amazing game ever! Imagine having so much meaningfull content that even the most hardcore no lifers could never expect to burn though it all! With all due respect of course

Molag_Crow

Hey. I'm quite new to ESO since I started when it was released on PS4. Previous to that, I had spent a lot of time on Skyrim and spent around 8 years on World of Warcraft, mostly PvPing. For the first time (in a very long time,) I've decided to unsub and quit WoW because of how awesome ESO is. Veteran Rank 4 So far and I've been doing a lot of general questing/PvE and quite a bit of PvP. I've noticed that there are quite a few Veteran Rank 14's on PS4 (EU Megaserver) who seem to have a lot of champion points, to the point where they'll be one-shotting us newbs like there's no tomorrow, but of course that doesn't always mean their champion points are giving them the powers to 1 shot, I guess?

I've been trying to grind for more champ points as well as just generally questing to level and I do understand where you're coming from, with the differences and the mathematical advantages rather than skill and strategy. I definitely like the idea you suggested about the "catch-up" system with 100 or so points, and then DR.

Since I'm not V14 yet, the sound of the update that'll up the rank to V16 sounds pretty cool to me, but of course, I'm somebody with barely any champion points and wearing full Cyrodiil V1 Gear, so it's not like I'll be getting hit hard compared to you guys who've put a lot of time into gearing, but saying that... I've dealt with similar situations like that in WoW, like gearing up to the max, only for a new patch/expansion to deem my gear pretty much worthless. I guess I'll look forward to continuing to level to v16, although I do see where you're coming from if you've got a lot of alts to level...

Also followed a lot of your video guides Deltia and they're very helpful, thanks. Surprised to see a topic from you, which I randomly stumbled upon!

Hiero_Glyph

Honestly the CP system needs a soft cap. Take Deltia's idea and add a soft cap to it where any CP above that total are gained at a slower rate. This would help newer players catch up as long as they are below the soft cap even if they have already maxed their CP for the current season/period.

Sithisvoid

Time=Rewards and so far this is the only MMO really getting that. If they gank out Champion points and vet ranks this game turns into a single player elder scrolls game with a bland story, not much replay-ability and people like me moving on asap. I mean why stick around after that? For gear? Not that much floating around to keep me going years. New content? Not much being released. And then we all catch up to each other. Then what? we all skip around playing rock paper scissors until someone says a skill needs re-balancing? Then nerf and buff wars. I'm not ahead of anybody either. My highest character is a vr3 and i have 16 champion points. Know what i was going to do? Grind

nimander99

Hey @Deltia obviously I don't know if this is true or not but I assert the explanation is simple here, I.C has been done since before there was ever grumblings to remove Ranks and I think that is the reason we are getting more. It also sounded like we may have more in the future as well. I and many others have been scratching our heads wondering how you remove a progression system from a game... I don't see how it's possible beside changing Ranks to levels, maybe better minds than mine have it figured out but I have suspected from the start that removing Ranks was a pipe dream or just a name change at most

I hear what you are saying, but for me it's always about the progression! I do understand the reaction from the community and I guess I'm in the minority (as usual), I like knowing that no matter how long I play this game there will be a form of progression besides gear treadmill.

I think ZoS could be setting a trend here but they need to be bold (and honest) enough to embrace this. They are offering a system that gives endless progression which is something we've never seen in an mmo. Gone are the days that people hit max level and move on to the next mmo, this system has the potential to keep a fickle community engaged for the long term.

I am deeply passionate about this game, in an ocean of WoW clones we have ESO which is not to be lightly cast off.

To sum up, I think the real issue is the lack of transparency on ZoS's side... this game (and all mmo's) are an ongoing and active collaboration between the Dev's and the players and if the community was just shown trust and a clear view of whats to come these problems could be avoided.

Edit: I don't think we need to worry about CP's wrecking the balance of the game, if it gets to the point of mass destruction then implementing a removal of CP's during a campaign or scaling everyone to the max would be easier to do then removing Ranks imho

noobfury

Elijah_Crow wrote: »

It's almost that everyone has forgotten what a drastic diminishing return there are on champion points... They have already discussed adjusting for a champion point catch up mechanic at a time when it's needed.

I have to agree with Elijah on this one . The catch up idea was recently acknowledged however , the post from ZOS may have been missed with all of the recent console activity over the last month or so.

I am also glad they are adding levels and content as should be in any successful mmorpg. SOE used to add quite large expansions to EQ 2 every year along with level increases and new items. This is the natural evolution of mmorpg's as they can grow stale without regular changes.

PVE content in this game is fun and pleasurable so I don't view it as " work" but rather something I enjoy. I think new content is going to sweeten up some of the sour grapes out there once they get to it.

With respect to the OP , I have found his website both useful and informative.

Personofsecrets

Deltia wrote: »

I have eight VR 14s and the problem I have with this isn't the time investment to re-level all those characters, or the fully legendary gear, but the constant deception about not adding more Veteran Ranks.

I see players concerns with gear as pretty reasonable.

Imagine if you just got v12 warlock rings and now are faced with choosing between them and a v16 set that could be better due to its v16 stats. Maybe v12 to v16 isn't a big enough stat difference to matter, but how players feel about there gear matters. There is a different psychology to all items that are currently v12 if the new max is v16.

This isn't a super huge issue, but consumer confidence is important and players feeling good about their gear is important.

There is at least an easy solution to this and that would be a level consolidation of everything v10+ once veteran levels are done away with (if that time ever comes). The other solution would be item changing. Let us increase item levels, let us change items armor types, let us change item traits, and let us change an item's looks.

Anyhow, I look forward to seeing your thoughts on stamina regeneration while blocking written out.

lathbury

Gidorick wrote: »

Champion System needs an ACTUAL Catch-Up Mechanic. Simply lowering XP required for X number of CPs or Capping CPs only provides temporary solutions.

• The benefit to lowering XP required for X number of CPs doesn't benefit those who have to earn the next CP after they earn whatever the amount of CPs are. At that point we will simply have the same problem we have now... it's just that most players will have gotten an easy handful of CPs.
• Capping CPs actively hinders players who like to grind so that players beneath them can catch up. It also doesn't address that in 2 years players will be running around with 2500 CPs and new players will be faced with the exact same problem we are trying to avoid.

I have this in a separate thread but everyone seems to have latched onto this thread to post ideas so... here it goes:

Gidorick wrote: »

There is currently quite a bit of concern regarding player catching up to legacy players when it comes to Champion Points (CP). Well, here’s my suggestion:

@ZOS should implement a curved buff scale so that the lower number of CPs a character has in comparison to the highest number of CPs that any character has on a server, the faster that character earns CPs.

A player with 100 CPs would earn their next CP faster if the highest number of CPs on the server is 1000 than they would if the highest number of CPs was only 500. The higher the maximum number of CPs that has been earned on the server, the faster those with a lower number of CPs will earn Champion Points.

Using this CP XO Buff Percentage, CPs will not be earned any faster by the community, but players would be able to climb that CP ladder more quickly. Using the maximum number of CPs to determine the buff also means that the higher the number of CPs that have been earned, the faster lower CP earners will be able to catch up. The highest possible Buff percentage could also be determined by the highest number of CPs earned on the server.

Using two scales, if the most CPs that any player currently has is 600 CPs, the maximum buff any player can have is about 15%. This would leave us with the following approximations:

• 60 CP = 15% buff
• 300 CP = 12% buff
• 500 CP = 8% buff

These numbers increase dramatically the more CPs are earned. If the most CPs that any player has is 2500 CPs, the maximum buff any player can have is about 210%. This would leave us with the following approximations:

• 100 CP = 210% buff
• 500 CP = 201% buff
• 1000 CP = 189% buff
• 2000 CP = 126% buff

Now, these specific percentages aren’t by any means gospel or exactly what I’m suggesting here. The rate of the curved scale of either the Buff Percentage or the Buff Rate could be altered one way or the other.

What I’m suggesting is a mechanic where there is a percentage of a buff applied to players who have less than the top number of CPs and that buff should be dependent on how many CPs the top player on the server has earned. This would not in any way change the rate of community XP gain, but would, instead, change the rate at which new players are able to catch up to older players. This mechanic should exist independently from and underneath Enlightenment, XP Pots, and Crown XP Scrolls.

These mechanics will close the inevitable CP gap but would not undermine the accomplishments of those players that have gone out and earned the most CPs.

Thoughts?

Original Thread: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/184576/champion-points-catch-up-mechanic-concept/p1

your solution while well thought out and presented while not an active cap is more of a rolling softcap so has the same short coming ie people not making any noticeable cp gains are liable to feel unjustly nerfed to allow other ''less dedicated fans'' to get a hand up. So the forum qq would erupt and we would have people quitting etc. also it does not address the scaling issue how do you scale dungeons etc by average cp? as you and I know that this would again not be an even playing field for things like speed runs etc. what about new content where do they set the bar? with challenging content imagine the complaints and community bitterness when ppl are expected to prove cp level for that.
It is also same set of problems the devs are gonna have with their solution. If they increase the diminishing returns players will feel they aren't progressing if they dont op players skewing leader boards and owning pvp.
also their solution does not address scaling hence vet rank increases to at least keep itemisation and dungeon scaling semi controlled.

FancyTuna8

I'm still a newb to this game, and loving it, but what I'm reading about pvp bothers me. Do they not segregate players in pvp by level/exp/champion points?
I play an mmo called World of Tanks. It is pretty much an mmorpg, but doesn't look like it. All pvp consists of 15v15 or 7v7, and it is only pvp. However, all players on both teams must be within a certain level (tier) of each other, and both teams must be balanced within 10% of each other. Balance being determined by each player's tank, with tanks being weighted according to type of tank and level (tier.) There is a little wiggle room, as a tank could be fully upgraded, partially, or a stock tank; and the tank could have a crew with 0 skills or 25 skills. But even with that wiggle room, the battles are still determined on strategy, teamwork, and player skill.

could this game at least have some pvp that is made up of teams that are weighted equally? I don't mind so much running around as a level 40 character against vr14's or 300 champion point characters, but I want to know that if I'm being attacked by characters of that ilk, my team has an advantage elsewhere because our vr14's, etc, are beating up/gaining control at the expense of the enemy's weaker players.

TagaParti

Very well said Deltia.

Please read in a sad voice ZoS, so you can feel how a sad fanboy feels.

I am a player who does not enjoy any way of grinding.
I only have 1 VR14.
I only have 170 Champion Points.
I only rely on making my build outperform any other build.
And I am paying a subscription from day 1.

I can keep my subscription on forever, but
Please don't make me too busy in this game just to be competitive.

I play the game and mostly stand anywhere in Tamriel, doing nothing but chatting.
I enjoy that, I am a VR14 and does not need to do anything.
I can PVP if I am bored.
But now I feel somewhat being left out.
Guys posting their achievements that means 900 Champion Points was acquired.

I feel like I am now just a level 10 compared to VR14.
At times I feel I dont enjoy the game anymore.
In a virtual world where everything is so busy, to nearly endless reach, a person like me who got to spend
times on my real life, this is simply becoming not a place for me.

"The Unkillable" is sad.

Phinix1

Sithisvoid wrote: »

Time=Rewards and so far this is the only MMO really getting that. If they gank out Champion points and vet ranks this game turns into a single player elder scrolls game with a bland story, not much replay-ability and people like me moving on asap. I mean why stick around after that? For gear? Not that much floating around to keep me going years. New content? Not much being released. And then we all catch up to each other. Then what? we all skip around playing rock paper scissors until someone says a skill needs re-balancing? Then nerf and buff wars. I'm not ahead of anybody either. My highest character is a vr3 and i have 16 champion points. Know what i was going to do? Grind

Other MMO's reward time invested with better raid/pvp gear. The only difference is, they don't just allow the people with the most free time to run away with it to INFINITE extremes. They cap progress by seasons, expansions, raid tiers, etc., as it should be to maintain any semblance of fair play.

What is this "reward" you are talking about with regard to time spent? The unfair advantage over new players that have no hope of ever catching up? Sounds great for the person with no job or responsibilities that sits there and grinds 24/7, not so great for the majority of players. But I guess if you only think about yourself, it's a wonderful system.

I am sorry if the only joy some people get is to mindlessly invest "time" grinding in a troll cave in Cyrodiil until they have achieved the "reward" of a ridiculously imbalanced TTK and un-killable defenses against the average player, but I don't think we should throw away a great game to cater to people that need that sort of sense of "achievement" in order to justify playing.

I would rather see the game remain FAIR and BALANCED, and if that means these minority that need to have an unfair advantage gained by ABSOLUTELY NOTHING SKILLFUL WHATSOEVER OTHER THAN GRINDING FOR MONTHS ON END IN A CAVE will leave, then so be it, good riddance. Good luck finding ANY game that allows that sort of ridiculous unsportsmanlike unfair advantage. As you say, this broken CP system is the only game that got it "right" (TM).

Personally, I would rather keep the 90% of players that are happy with a reasonable season/tier/time-based limit to CP gain which maintains a FAIR and BALANCED gaming environment.

Glory

noobfury wrote: »

Elijah_Crow wrote: »

It's almost that everyone has forgotten what a drastic diminishing return there are on champion points... They have already discussed adjusting for a champion point catch up mechanic at a time when it's needed.

I have to agree with Elijah on this one . The catch up idea was recently acknowledged however , the post from ZOS may have been missed with all of the recent console activity over the last month or so.

I am also glad they are adding levels and content as should be in any successful mmorpg. SOE used to add quite large expansions to EQ 2 every year along with level increases and new items. This is the natural evolution of mmorpg's as they can grow stale without regular changes.

PVE content in this game is fun and pleasurable so I don't view it as " work" but rather something I enjoy. I think new content is going to sweeten up some of the sour grapes out there once they get to it.

With respect to the OP , I have found his website both useful and informative.

Their catchup mechanic as they have suggested it is a temporary fix, not actually addressing the problem.

As to "drastic diminishing returns"... besides the fact that every champion point gives you increasingly larger stats, these diminishing returns are not that drastic as players with 1000+ have SIGNIFICANT advantage over players with say 100 (25% better at everything at least and tons more health, magicka, and stamina).

AhPook_Is_Here

Why are they doing v16 for some zones and dugeons? If there was new trial content i could get that because you need a way to scale difficulty up. People want a good grind zone to go from vr10 to vr14, why isn't orsinium that?

Kronosphere

Deltia wrote: »

Hello ESO Forums,

I posted this on my website but I know ZOS reads these forums so I figured I'd share my thoughts here. I'm one person the sea of awesome people that love this game. With the announcement of increase in Veteran Ranks I'd like to leave my feedback whether you agree or not. And here's what I have to say about the problem and fixing it.

Before I start I want to make clear where my opinions come from. I make my living playing THIS video game only. Not only that, but it's my primary means of socialization. Over the past two years (including beta), I've been infatuated with the idea of a multiplayer Elder Scrolls Game. Not to mention the help that ZOS has personally given me. I still love ESO, but I'm not going to blindly follow a games growth that does not fit my needs. Just realize the passion I have for this game, it's community and developers runs deep.

VR 16?

Within the same breath, Eric Wrobel said they still have long term plans of removing Veteran Ranks (VR), but for the new content they are increasing it by two thus making end game VR 16. At this point, I think it's clear that Veteran Ranks aren't going away, ANYTIME in the future. I have eight VR 14s and the problem I have with this isn't the time investment to re-level all those characters, or the fully legendary gear, but the constant deception about not adding more Veteran Ranks. We as customers have a right to voice or opinions and/or a right to stop being customers. For me, it's time to pick one and voicing seems to be the best option.

I have defended their decisions as a business model constantly but this is one I cannot ignore. Adding Veteran Ranks is not content, it's busy work. Content is intractable quest, dungeon diving finding worthwhile rewards with friends, a working PvP system giving flexibility and choices. Yes, I know Imperial City is coming with this additional Veteran Ranks, but why increase the cap? "Deltia to increase the contents difficulty," well that's true in most MMOs but not ESO and that's due to the Champion System.

Champion Progression

Most games have a level cap that once reached, one works on optimizing gear and your individual skill for increased performance. However, ESO has the Champion System rendering time in game collecting XP as account progression. So take the most skilled PvPer in the world (let's say Sypher) vs. someone with 1,000 more champion points. Skill is irreverent at this point. Thus removing one of the core reasons I play MMOs and video games alike. Busy work trumps constantly improving yourself. Grinding mobs and CP is the new meta, not skill.

Take another game for instance, you have fully maxed out gear and have been playing for four years. Once a level increase hits, most players will be on an even playing field in terms of gear. So, there is some possibility of catching up to those folks that spend eight hours a day in game. Not ESO, there is no Champion Point catch up mechanic. The person at level 10 might be more powerful than someone at VR14 due to CP. Without a catch up mechanic or a way to limit zombie grinding macros and bots, you'll have a runaway performance gap the size the Grand Canyon.
The Fix

Someone like me benefits significantly from the Champion System. Having alts, grinding mobs and skills, etc just makes me VERY powerful. But it does not help new players, inexperienced ones nor the overall game. My good friend Parfax had an excellent suggestion, simply have seasons for Champion Points. Meaning, every three months or so, you could gain 100 CP. Once you reach that number, you have to wait for the reset. No more 100 v 1,000 CP fights. If that doesn't work, why not make CP have diminishing returns? So the first 300 are very easy to obtain, but everything beyond that is harder (similar to Alliance Ranks).

I'm all for account wide progression, but at what cost? At the cost that people grinding zombies ultimately win? At the cost that skill and performance are removed out of the game? I want to one day challenge Sypher in PvP without out grinding him. With skill, learning, getting my face kicked in by him over and over just to beat him one day with pure skill. Until this changes, the easier way for me to beat him is out grind him. Obtain such a mathematical advantage that no amount of skill can compensate. And that is the day that ESO dies.

Why I Give a ****

No I do not plan on leaving the game. I still love the combat, the people and the developers. But I'm no longer a bushy eyed fan-boy. I don't want to leave this game, this is my absolute favorite thing to do (well besides you know what). I've have (not had) such an emotional attachment to the land of Tamriel that I won't let it go just yet. But I'm not going to sit back and let another level increase happen without a true fix to the underlying problem, the Champion System.

your points about level cap and gear etc are invalid though? its an mmo, of COURSE there is going to be better gear! its an mmo. how boring would the game be if u knew u had the gear u were going to use for the rest of time, in an mmo progression is what makes you play, when you end that journey the game is (or going to be shortly) over and boring. this point doesnt make sense. before you argue this is proven by how hard it has always been to do craglorn questing. it didnt really give u anything for you character or progress you, so no one did it. and the complaints of no content. by your logic, no content should be good. everyone is maxed and completed everything! yay! we finished eso! can uninstall it now! when this is not the case.

v16 part also doesnt matter as its simply for more tiers of gear which refers to my 1st point. as i said on my earlier post with the introduction of v16 it actually takes LESS exp to hit max level. and thats NOT including the buffs to exp. so what do you say to that @Deltia and come on mate you are smarter than this or so i thought. the 2 vet levels are not "busy work". its come out along with the imperial city. craglorn v11-12, upper crag 13-14 imp city 15-16.. duh

as for the champ point yes i agree its a bit silly, but im optimistic they will create a catch up system. but yea i also think its really silly that you can grind champ points and make actual skill less relevant. so your right on point with this call!

BigM

Well it's about time a lot of you have finally caught up. Thanks, the more of us that keep telling them we agree game has major problems then maybe they will finally listen. But if you really want them to listen and make the game better we all have to take the chance and speak with our wallets. Chance means they do something before it is too late. But am scared it may already be.

By the way change has to come from top and I no longer mean they have to talk to us, we need change in management.

michaelb14a_ESO2

Elijah_Crow wrote: »

OP,

I have to say I'm a fan. I've sent more than one person to your site for guidance on game play and appreciate your insights. With that said I have to respectfully disagree with you and here's why.

VR Ranks are intimately tied to itemization currently. In my opinion the end game has been stagnant for some time and it's time to raise the bar for gear and progression. If having VR Ranks removed means a delay in the launch of new content and gear, then now is not the time to do it.

It makes much more sense to raise the VR Cap by 2 and introduce new content to give players at end game something to aspire to while re-working the itemization completely to allow the removal of VR Ranks.

With these changes a new player can now reach level cap of VR16 from level 50 in 25% to 30% less time than it took me to reach VR14. This is a move in the right direction. This change in addition to the gear reset puts everyone on a more level playing field at VR16 for the time being which is fantastic.

In addition they can always institute a champion point catch up system (which in my opinion is not yet necessary as only 2% of the players are really pushing the envelope here. Your average player since launch may only now be reaching VR14 and since you dedicate so much time to the game, I think your perception is skewed here.

I think the plan moving forward is pretty solid and most of the changes they are working on are based on great player feedback.

I would also add one controversial step they could take to balance VR Ranks. They could make VR Ranks account wide (and i'm not a fan of account wide anything) for any character over level 50. Once you reach VR16 and decide for example you would like to try another class, you level 1-50 and once you hit 50 you automatically become VR16. This would eliminate the "grind" to try another class. Not saying they should do this, but it's is an alternative that's doable.

Thanks again for your work with the game and the guidance you give players looking to achieve greatness.

Well said, and I agree 100%. Especially:

since you dedicate so much time to the game, I think your perception is skewed here.[\quote]