The Gold Road Chapter – which includes the Scribing system – and Update 42 is now available to test on the PTS! You can read the latest patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/656454/
The issue is resolved, and the North American PC/Mac megaserver is now available. Thank you for your patience!
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8100050/#Comment_8100050
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8100050/#Comment_8100050
why i'm holding off on renewing my ESO+ subscription (nRND)
-
ZOS_IcymodGreetings,
We have recently removed some unnecessary back and forth from this thread in addition to some baiting. This is a reminder to keep the discussion civil and constructive.- Trolling or Baiting: The act of trolling is defined as something that is created for the intent to provoke conflict, shock others, or to elicit a strong negative or emotional reaction. It’s okay and very normal to disagree with others, and even to debate, but provoking conflict, baiting, inciting, mocking, etc. is never acceptable in the official The Elder Scrolls Online community. If you do not have something constructive or meaningful to add to a discussion, we strongly recommend you refrain from posting in that thread, and find another discussion to participate in instead. It is also not constructive or helpful to publicly call out others and accuse them of trolling, or call them a troll—please refrain from doing so. If you genuinely believe someone is trolling, please report the post or thread to the ESO Team, and leave it at that.
Please keep our Community Rules in mind moving forward.
Thank you for your understanding.1 -
Raideen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
I disagree completely and other MMORPG's have proven this point for at least over a decade.Mention them because the ideas presented in the forums so far will not rectify anything worthwhile.
That is not a fault of the player, that is a fault of the games design. Neither combat nor building armor sets in ESO is remotely intuitive. In fact, they are extremely complex and confusing to players, new and veteran players alike. I know people who have played this game since 2014, they have the monkey to prove it who can not figure out how to build an armor set.Also, I edited the post after you set the quote. The real issue is the disparity of unskilled players in the game leading to a high likelihood of getting a very bad group if one uses the queue to find a random group.
Light attack weaving is not only NOT intuitive, its uncomfortable for many folks and many folks don't do it.
As long as folks blame it on the players and not the core of the design. This will be an issue.This is a fact supported by a great many threads complaining about poorly skilled players in the GF. It has also led to tanks being tired of so many bad groups that no longer queue solo.
I would argue that this has less to do with "poorly skilled" players, and a system that is not even remotely intuitive. As evidence of the huge plethora of videos on you tube showing people how to build and rotate. Except, that not everyone watches you tube.
Edited by Raideen on December 3, 2021 6:18PM0 -
Olauron✭✭✭✭✭
✭spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »
Buyers remorse is when someone makes a purchase and they dont feel good about it. That is different than making a purchase in good faith only to find out the purchase is trash/junk/broken/badly designed etc and then feel upset with the purchase.
EDIT: Most of the time, buyers remorse comes from being "sold" an item, something you were not really expecting to purchase, but did so due to some sales hype mechanic through advertising or a sales person.Factors that affect buyer's remorse may include: resources invested, the involvement of the purchaser, whether the purchase is compatible with the purchaser's goals, feelings encountered post-purchase that include regret.
If you purchase something and then realize it may conflict with personal goals, it's buyer's remorse.
The product isn't faulty. It is giving you exactly what it says will, access to the dungeons.
It's not about conflicting with personal goals, its about the realization that what you purchased is not as advertised, or broken.
The product is faulty, because its not mentioned anywhere that those dungeons are going to be a royal pain with fake tanks and people who are not ready for the content.
As I said previously, people make the purchase in good faith. The mindset of a good faith purchase does not lead to buyers remorse unless the product if faulty. You can't know if a product is faulty until you use it. This is why lemon laws exist.
It is easy to avoid getting a fake tank so there is no faulty advertising. I do most dungeons without a fake tank. Occasionally, not often, I do choose to queue solo and understand there is a risk of getting lesser skilled players or fake tanks. However, I rarely choose to be that adventurous. I prefer to know I will have a good group and the run will go well. Again, a choice but one each of us makes for ourselves.
Using the in game supplied dungeon finder to queue for a dungeon often has other players queuing as "fake tanks" making the dungeon run less fun for the myriad of reasons people have listed.
Other MMORPGs do not have the problem of fake tanks because the design of the game ensures the people selecting their roles at least meet a gear and skill check before they can queue as a tank or healer, or even DPS. This is not the case in ESO. There is an assumption, which is established by long standing, long term MMORPG's, some of which are the most popular in history who literally wrote the rules for what it means to be an MMORPG. Some of these mechanics are expected in other games, so much in fact many of the same mechanics are used in these games. For example. White, Green, Blue, Purple, Orange/Yellow to describe quality of gear. This is almost universally used, because its become accepted.
When queuing up for a random dungeon with a random group of people, there is an assumption made (rightfully so) that the tank is a tank, the DPS are DPS and the healer is a healer. Other mmorpgs make sure this happens, ESO does not.
I am fully aware of why players end up with fake tanks and alluded to that in my post you quoted.
Other games have more specific definitions of what a tank is. As such there are some controls. Controls that are not possible, or at the very least extremely ineffective. Realizing this there is no real solution other than to redesign character builds to be very restrictive. The "solutions" I have seen in the various threads are either not workable or ineffective to the point they are pointless. The only real solution is the easy one of forming one's own group.
The skeevaton phase proves that it is possible to alter available skills on the fly. That means that it is very much possible to enforce only certain skills for tanks and healers on entering the dungeon through dungeon finder.
How does the skeevaton phase force a player to taunt? Yes it can force them into a different skill set and make them figure out what each skill does (not a great idea to have to read tooltips in the middle of a fight) or play a role they do not play. Even then it does not force them to taunt.
Will the skeevaton phase idea also make DDs do good damage or pay attention to mechanics so they do not die? That is the real issue as to why real tanks avoid the GF.
I say this as one who has healed random groups and out DPSed the group while healing. I thought that was sad. With my tank, I will not waste my time in such a manner and that is the real problem the GF faces.
Bad tanks are not fake tanks, bad healers are not fake healers, bad damage dealers are not fake damage dealers. Fake roles are those who don't even have and don't use skills (tools) that are part of their role. You can't enforce somebody to be good at any role, but you can enforce somebody to use skills necessary for that role by blocking skills of other roles. If the only thing as a tank you can do is to taunt, you will taunt and thus do the bare minimum.
Fakes are anyone not doing their role.
Tanks should be doing damage, as should healers. Dps should be able to swap into or always carry a self heal.
I'm not necessarily opposed to forcing a taunt onto the bar of anyone who queues tank, but locking tanks out of damage skills is absurd
Fake roles are those who don't try to do their role, not those who are doing it bad. A tank without taunt, a healer without heal, a damage dealer without damaging skill. Everyone else are not fake.
It is absurd for those who don't want to solve the problem. On the other hand, it is workable and effective.The Three Storm Sharks, episode 8 released on january the 8th.
One mer to rule them all,
one mer to find them,
One mer to bring them all
and in the darkness bind them.4 -
Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭It really has nothing to do with Transmute Thingies, outside of the fact that these are a reward. The actual reward itself really does not matter, and it changes over time, anyway. If it isn't Transmute Thingies, it will be something else. Players want some sort of reward (game reward or not), or they would not be there. Rewards are intertwined with everything.
Yes, its obvious that rewards are intertwined with everything, else no one would do the content. I previously stated that.
But the primary reason people are running their DAILY? dungeons, daily being key word, is to farm transmute crystals. Transmute crystals are the prime motivator for doing the random dungeon dailies. But this invites fake tanks because of the lengthy queues.
Today? Yes. Last week, people were farming gold and purple boxes and event tickets. The prize itself is not the issue. Any reward that can be farmed will be the issue. If people can do it more than once per day, some people will do that. If people can just do it once per day, then some people will just do that.
While I want Transmute Thingies to be available through other PVE activities besides dungeons, I know that people will still farm dungeons for whatever reward the dungeon has to offer. If not Transmute, then sticker book, or XP, or gold, or achievements, or just because they are bored over lunch and like the excitement of the dungeon.
And...Remove the daily rewards, and you remove most of the fake tanking and speed runners.
My thinking is that this would have the opposite effect and get worse.
The reason is that removing rewards would remove incentive, and removing incentive attracts fewer players, and that will increase queue times. In the end, the demand for fake roles increases in order to bring the queue times down for those willing to do it. Faced with generally longer queue times, speed runs become more necessary in order to bring the total time (queue+dungeon) down into the acceptable range.I would do it completely differently myself. I would have made the traditional roles more strict, less "everyone is a tank, healer and DPS" like ESO is. The day dungeons start 2 shotting DPS, is the day DPS will stop running ahead, or queuing as tanks.
I would completely remove roles for normal dungeon queues.
I do not believe that there is anything that can be done to prevent speed running. I am sure that there are some people who do Fungal Grotto I, with the shortcut, that think that dungeon is too long.
Specific to FG1, ZOS should decide how they want that dungeon to be run. Either eliminate the short cut, or put a ramp up out of the water to the Dreugh King's arena area. If they like the short cut, possibly allow a short cut before the first mini-boss to expedite arrival at the Dreugh King.
I would also make it so that Transmute Thingies were common daily rewards for other PVE activities besides dungeons, trials, and arenas. 0 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »
Buyers remorse is when someone makes a purchase and they dont feel good about it. That is different than making a purchase in good faith only to find out the purchase is trash/junk/broken/badly designed etc and then feel upset with the purchase.
EDIT: Most of the time, buyers remorse comes from being "sold" an item, something you were not really expecting to purchase, but did so due to some sales hype mechanic through advertising or a sales person.Factors that affect buyer's remorse may include: resources invested, the involvement of the purchaser, whether the purchase is compatible with the purchaser's goals, feelings encountered post-purchase that include regret.
If you purchase something and then realize it may conflict with personal goals, it's buyer's remorse.
The product isn't faulty. It is giving you exactly what it says will, access to the dungeons.
It's not about conflicting with personal goals, its about the realization that what you purchased is not as advertised, or broken.
The product is faulty, because its not mentioned anywhere that those dungeons are going to be a royal pain with fake tanks and people who are not ready for the content.
As I said previously, people make the purchase in good faith. The mindset of a good faith purchase does not lead to buyers remorse unless the product if faulty. You can't know if a product is faulty until you use it. This is why lemon laws exist.
It is easy to avoid getting a fake tank so there is no faulty advertising. I do most dungeons without a fake tank. Occasionally, not often, I do choose to queue solo and understand there is a risk of getting lesser skilled players or fake tanks. However, I rarely choose to be that adventurous. I prefer to know I will have a good group and the run will go well. Again, a choice but one each of us makes for ourselves.
Using the in game supplied dungeon finder to queue for a dungeon often has other players queuing as "fake tanks" making the dungeon run less fun for the myriad of reasons people have listed.
Other MMORPGs do not have the problem of fake tanks because the design of the game ensures the people selecting their roles at least meet a gear and skill check before they can queue as a tank or healer, or even DPS. This is not the case in ESO. There is an assumption, which is established by long standing, long term MMORPG's, some of which are the most popular in history who literally wrote the rules for what it means to be an MMORPG. Some of these mechanics are expected in other games, so much in fact many of the same mechanics are used in these games. For example. White, Green, Blue, Purple, Orange/Yellow to describe quality of gear. This is almost universally used, because its become accepted.
When queuing up for a random dungeon with a random group of people, there is an assumption made (rightfully so) that the tank is a tank, the DPS are DPS and the healer is a healer. Other mmorpgs make sure this happens, ESO does not.
I am fully aware of why players end up with fake tanks and alluded to that in my post you quoted.
Other games have more specific definitions of what a tank is. As such there are some controls. Controls that are not possible, or at the very least extremely ineffective. Realizing this there is no real solution other than to redesign character builds to be very restrictive. The "solutions" I have seen in the various threads are either not workable or ineffective to the point they are pointless. The only real solution is the easy one of forming one's own group.
The skeevaton phase proves that it is possible to alter available skills on the fly. That means that it is very much possible to enforce only certain skills for tanks and healers on entering the dungeon through dungeon finder.
How does the skeevaton phase force a player to taunt? Yes it can force them into a different skill set and make them figure out what each skill does (not a great idea to have to read tooltips in the middle of a fight) or play a role they do not play. Even then it does not force them to taunt.
Will the skeevaton phase idea also make DDs do good damage or pay attention to mechanics so they do not die? That is the real issue as to why real tanks avoid the GF.
I say this as one who has healed random groups and out DPSed the group while healing. I thought that was sad. With my tank, I will not waste my time in such a manner and that is the real problem the GF faces.
Bad tanks are not fake tanks, bad healers are not fake healers, bad damage dealers are not fake damage dealers. Fake roles are those who don't even have and don't use skills (tools) that are part of their role. You can't enforce somebody to be good at any role, but you can enforce somebody to use skills necessary for that role by blocking skills of other roles. If the only thing as a tank you can do is to taunt, you will taunt and thus do the bare minimum.
Fakes are anyone not doing their role.
Tanks should be doing damage, as should healers. Dps should be able to swap into or always carry a self heal.
I'm not necessarily opposed to forcing a taunt onto the bar of anyone who queues tank, but locking tanks out of damage skills is absurd
Fake roles are those who don't try to do their role, not those who are doing it bad. A tank without taunt, a healer without heal, a damage dealer without damaging skill. Everyone else are not fake.
It is absurd for those who don't want to solve the problem. On the other hand, it is workable and effective.
No. It's anyone who completely fails to do their role. You can be a fake without being a fraud. Fake doesn't require deception (although it's usually the case.)
This is fake money
and so is this
Because neither is legal tender. But one is trying to pass itself off as legal tender (for the purpose of making movies) at a glance, and the other is going out of it's way to ensure that nobody could possibly make that mistake.
A DPS who cannot do the basic job of a DPS (pass the dps checks, which are mostly pretty low), a tank with no taunt, a healer with no heals. Those are the bare minimum things.
I think you'd have to be doing something like just spamming volley on normal (which has a delay between when it does damage, so you're literally dealing no damage as a dps doing that) to be a fake, but it's more common in vet.Edited by spartaxoxo on December 3, 2021 6:28PM0 -
Olauron✭✭✭✭✭
✭spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »
Buyers remorse is when someone makes a purchase and they dont feel good about it. That is different than making a purchase in good faith only to find out the purchase is trash/junk/broken/badly designed etc and then feel upset with the purchase.
EDIT: Most of the time, buyers remorse comes from being "sold" an item, something you were not really expecting to purchase, but did so due to some sales hype mechanic through advertising or a sales person.Factors that affect buyer's remorse may include: resources invested, the involvement of the purchaser, whether the purchase is compatible with the purchaser's goals, feelings encountered post-purchase that include regret.
If you purchase something and then realize it may conflict with personal goals, it's buyer's remorse.
The product isn't faulty. It is giving you exactly what it says will, access to the dungeons.
It's not about conflicting with personal goals, its about the realization that what you purchased is not as advertised, or broken.
The product is faulty, because its not mentioned anywhere that those dungeons are going to be a royal pain with fake tanks and people who are not ready for the content.
As I said previously, people make the purchase in good faith. The mindset of a good faith purchase does not lead to buyers remorse unless the product if faulty. You can't know if a product is faulty until you use it. This is why lemon laws exist.
It is easy to avoid getting a fake tank so there is no faulty advertising. I do most dungeons without a fake tank. Occasionally, not often, I do choose to queue solo and understand there is a risk of getting lesser skilled players or fake tanks. However, I rarely choose to be that adventurous. I prefer to know I will have a good group and the run will go well. Again, a choice but one each of us makes for ourselves.
Using the in game supplied dungeon finder to queue for a dungeon often has other players queuing as "fake tanks" making the dungeon run less fun for the myriad of reasons people have listed.
Other MMORPGs do not have the problem of fake tanks because the design of the game ensures the people selecting their roles at least meet a gear and skill check before they can queue as a tank or healer, or even DPS. This is not the case in ESO. There is an assumption, which is established by long standing, long term MMORPG's, some of which are the most popular in history who literally wrote the rules for what it means to be an MMORPG. Some of these mechanics are expected in other games, so much in fact many of the same mechanics are used in these games. For example. White, Green, Blue, Purple, Orange/Yellow to describe quality of gear. This is almost universally used, because its become accepted.
When queuing up for a random dungeon with a random group of people, there is an assumption made (rightfully so) that the tank is a tank, the DPS are DPS and the healer is a healer. Other mmorpgs make sure this happens, ESO does not.
I am fully aware of why players end up with fake tanks and alluded to that in my post you quoted.
Other games have more specific definitions of what a tank is. As such there are some controls. Controls that are not possible, or at the very least extremely ineffective. Realizing this there is no real solution other than to redesign character builds to be very restrictive. The "solutions" I have seen in the various threads are either not workable or ineffective to the point they are pointless. The only real solution is the easy one of forming one's own group.
The skeevaton phase proves that it is possible to alter available skills on the fly. That means that it is very much possible to enforce only certain skills for tanks and healers on entering the dungeon through dungeon finder.
How does the skeevaton phase force a player to taunt? Yes it can force them into a different skill set and make them figure out what each skill does (not a great idea to have to read tooltips in the middle of a fight) or play a role they do not play. Even then it does not force them to taunt.
Will the skeevaton phase idea also make DDs do good damage or pay attention to mechanics so they do not die? That is the real issue as to why real tanks avoid the GF.
I say this as one who has healed random groups and out DPSed the group while healing. I thought that was sad. With my tank, I will not waste my time in such a manner and that is the real problem the GF faces.
Bad tanks are not fake tanks, bad healers are not fake healers, bad damage dealers are not fake damage dealers. Fake roles are those who don't even have and don't use skills (tools) that are part of their role. You can't enforce somebody to be good at any role, but you can enforce somebody to use skills necessary for that role by blocking skills of other roles. If the only thing as a tank you can do is to taunt, you will taunt and thus do the bare minimum.
Fakes are anyone not doing their role.
Tanks should be doing damage, as should healers. Dps should be able to swap into or always carry a self heal.
I'm not necessarily opposed to forcing a taunt onto the bar of anyone who queues tank, but locking tanks out of damage skills is absurd
Fake roles are those who don't try to do their role, not those who are doing it bad. A tank without taunt, a healer without heal, a damage dealer without damaging skill. Everyone else are not fake.
It is absurd for those who don't want to solve the problem. On the other hand, it is workable and effective.
No. It's anyone who completely fails to do their role. You can be a fake without being a fraud. Fake doesn't require deception (although it's usually the case.)
This is wrong. If some player is doing an arena and fails to do it, he is not fake arena runner, he is simply not competent (yet). The same applies to all dungeon or trial roles, to housing, to fashion, to crafting.The Three Storm Sharks, episode 8 released on january the 8th.
One mer to rule them all,
one mer to find them,
One mer to bring them all
and in the darkness bind them.5 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »
Buyers remorse is when someone makes a purchase and they dont feel good about it. That is different than making a purchase in good faith only to find out the purchase is trash/junk/broken/badly designed etc and then feel upset with the purchase.
EDIT: Most of the time, buyers remorse comes from being "sold" an item, something you were not really expecting to purchase, but did so due to some sales hype mechanic through advertising or a sales person.Factors that affect buyer's remorse may include: resources invested, the involvement of the purchaser, whether the purchase is compatible with the purchaser's goals, feelings encountered post-purchase that include regret.
If you purchase something and then realize it may conflict with personal goals, it's buyer's remorse.
The product isn't faulty. It is giving you exactly what it says will, access to the dungeons.
It's not about conflicting with personal goals, its about the realization that what you purchased is not as advertised, or broken.
The product is faulty, because its not mentioned anywhere that those dungeons are going to be a royal pain with fake tanks and people who are not ready for the content.
As I said previously, people make the purchase in good faith. The mindset of a good faith purchase does not lead to buyers remorse unless the product if faulty. You can't know if a product is faulty until you use it. This is why lemon laws exist.
It is easy to avoid getting a fake tank so there is no faulty advertising. I do most dungeons without a fake tank. Occasionally, not often, I do choose to queue solo and understand there is a risk of getting lesser skilled players or fake tanks. However, I rarely choose to be that adventurous. I prefer to know I will have a good group and the run will go well. Again, a choice but one each of us makes for ourselves.
Using the in game supplied dungeon finder to queue for a dungeon often has other players queuing as "fake tanks" making the dungeon run less fun for the myriad of reasons people have listed.
Other MMORPGs do not have the problem of fake tanks because the design of the game ensures the people selecting their roles at least meet a gear and skill check before they can queue as a tank or healer, or even DPS. This is not the case in ESO. There is an assumption, which is established by long standing, long term MMORPG's, some of which are the most popular in history who literally wrote the rules for what it means to be an MMORPG. Some of these mechanics are expected in other games, so much in fact many of the same mechanics are used in these games. For example. White, Green, Blue, Purple, Orange/Yellow to describe quality of gear. This is almost universally used, because its become accepted.
When queuing up for a random dungeon with a random group of people, there is an assumption made (rightfully so) that the tank is a tank, the DPS are DPS and the healer is a healer. Other mmorpgs make sure this happens, ESO does not.
I am fully aware of why players end up with fake tanks and alluded to that in my post you quoted.
Other games have more specific definitions of what a tank is. As such there are some controls. Controls that are not possible, or at the very least extremely ineffective. Realizing this there is no real solution other than to redesign character builds to be very restrictive. The "solutions" I have seen in the various threads are either not workable or ineffective to the point they are pointless. The only real solution is the easy one of forming one's own group.
The skeevaton phase proves that it is possible to alter available skills on the fly. That means that it is very much possible to enforce only certain skills for tanks and healers on entering the dungeon through dungeon finder.
How does the skeevaton phase force a player to taunt? Yes it can force them into a different skill set and make them figure out what each skill does (not a great idea to have to read tooltips in the middle of a fight) or play a role they do not play. Even then it does not force them to taunt.
Will the skeevaton phase idea also make DDs do good damage or pay attention to mechanics so they do not die? That is the real issue as to why real tanks avoid the GF.
I say this as one who has healed random groups and out DPSed the group while healing. I thought that was sad. With my tank, I will not waste my time in such a manner and that is the real problem the GF faces.
Bad tanks are not fake tanks, bad healers are not fake healers, bad damage dealers are not fake damage dealers. Fake roles are those who don't even have and don't use skills (tools) that are part of their role. You can't enforce somebody to be good at any role, but you can enforce somebody to use skills necessary for that role by blocking skills of other roles. If the only thing as a tank you can do is to taunt, you will taunt and thus do the bare minimum.
Fakes are anyone not doing their role.
Tanks should be doing damage, as should healers. Dps should be able to swap into or always carry a self heal.
I'm not necessarily opposed to forcing a taunt onto the bar of anyone who queues tank, but locking tanks out of damage skills is absurd
Fake roles are those who don't try to do their role, not those who are doing it bad. A tank without taunt, a healer without heal, a damage dealer without damaging skill. Everyone else are not fake.
It is absurd for those who don't want to solve the problem. On the other hand, it is workable and effective.
No. It's anyone who completely fails to do their role. You can be a fake without being a fraud. Fake doesn't require deception (although it's usually the case.)
This is wrong. If some player is doing an arena and fails to do it, he is not fake arena runner, he is simply not competent (yet). The same applies to all dungeon or trial roles, to housing, to fashion, to crafting.
Failing to do it, and failing to be capable of doing it are two different things. If someone has enough damage to pass a bottom of the barrel dps check, but keeps failing because they are bad at the mechanics. That is someone who is merely incompetent.
A person who has 40k HP and 2k DPS, is a tank without a taunt. And no amount of getting better at the mechanics will allow them to perform their role adequately. They need to make actual changes to their build, same as a fake tank needs to slot a taunt and cannot possibly maintain aggro without one. They are fundamentally not fulfilling the basic requirements of the role.
edit:
I know a lot of people take issue with this definition because they can see an effort on the dps part, while the fake tank is simply a fraud. But not everyone feels the same, because at the end of the day, this person isn't doing their job and that person's failure to build their character in a way that allows them to fulfill the basic requirements of their role causes problems in groups. Neither viewpoint is incorrect from a word choice standpoint because the word fake does not mandate deception or lack of effort.Edited by spartaxoxo on December 3, 2021 6:48PM0 -
jaws343✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »
Buyers remorse is when someone makes a purchase and they dont feel good about it. That is different than making a purchase in good faith only to find out the purchase is trash/junk/broken/badly designed etc and then feel upset with the purchase.
EDIT: Most of the time, buyers remorse comes from being "sold" an item, something you were not really expecting to purchase, but did so due to some sales hype mechanic through advertising or a sales person.Factors that affect buyer's remorse may include: resources invested, the involvement of the purchaser, whether the purchase is compatible with the purchaser's goals, feelings encountered post-purchase that include regret.
If you purchase something and then realize it may conflict with personal goals, it's buyer's remorse.
The product isn't faulty. It is giving you exactly what it says will, access to the dungeons.
It's not about conflicting with personal goals, its about the realization that what you purchased is not as advertised, or broken.
The product is faulty, because its not mentioned anywhere that those dungeons are going to be a royal pain with fake tanks and people who are not ready for the content.
As I said previously, people make the purchase in good faith. The mindset of a good faith purchase does not lead to buyers remorse unless the product if faulty. You can't know if a product is faulty until you use it. This is why lemon laws exist.
It is easy to avoid getting a fake tank so there is no faulty advertising. I do most dungeons without a fake tank. Occasionally, not often, I do choose to queue solo and understand there is a risk of getting lesser skilled players or fake tanks. However, I rarely choose to be that adventurous. I prefer to know I will have a good group and the run will go well. Again, a choice but one each of us makes for ourselves.
Using the in game supplied dungeon finder to queue for a dungeon often has other players queuing as "fake tanks" making the dungeon run less fun for the myriad of reasons people have listed.
Other MMORPGs do not have the problem of fake tanks because the design of the game ensures the people selecting their roles at least meet a gear and skill check before they can queue as a tank or healer, or even DPS. This is not the case in ESO. There is an assumption, which is established by long standing, long term MMORPG's, some of which are the most popular in history who literally wrote the rules for what it means to be an MMORPG. Some of these mechanics are expected in other games, so much in fact many of the same mechanics are used in these games. For example. White, Green, Blue, Purple, Orange/Yellow to describe quality of gear. This is almost universally used, because its become accepted.
When queuing up for a random dungeon with a random group of people, there is an assumption made (rightfully so) that the tank is a tank, the DPS are DPS and the healer is a healer. Other mmorpgs make sure this happens, ESO does not.
I am fully aware of why players end up with fake tanks and alluded to that in my post you quoted.
Other games have more specific definitions of what a tank is. As such there are some controls. Controls that are not possible, or at the very least extremely ineffective. Realizing this there is no real solution other than to redesign character builds to be very restrictive. The "solutions" I have seen in the various threads are either not workable or ineffective to the point they are pointless. The only real solution is the easy one of forming one's own group.
The skeevaton phase proves that it is possible to alter available skills on the fly. That means that it is very much possible to enforce only certain skills for tanks and healers on entering the dungeon through dungeon finder.
How does the skeevaton phase force a player to taunt? Yes it can force them into a different skill set and make them figure out what each skill does (not a great idea to have to read tooltips in the middle of a fight) or play a role they do not play. Even then it does not force them to taunt.
Will the skeevaton phase idea also make DDs do good damage or pay attention to mechanics so they do not die? That is the real issue as to why real tanks avoid the GF.
I say this as one who has healed random groups and out DPSed the group while healing. I thought that was sad. With my tank, I will not waste my time in such a manner and that is the real problem the GF faces.
Bad tanks are not fake tanks, bad healers are not fake healers, bad damage dealers are not fake damage dealers. Fake roles are those who don't even have and don't use skills (tools) that are part of their role. You can't enforce somebody to be good at any role, but you can enforce somebody to use skills necessary for that role by blocking skills of other roles. If the only thing as a tank you can do is to taunt, you will taunt and thus do the bare minimum.
Fakes are anyone not doing their role.
Tanks should be doing damage, as should healers. Dps should be able to swap into or always carry a self heal.
I'm not necessarily opposed to forcing a taunt onto the bar of anyone who queues tank, but locking tanks out of damage skills is absurd
Fake roles are those who don't try to do their role, not those who are doing it bad. A tank without taunt, a healer without heal, a damage dealer without damaging skill. Everyone else are not fake.
It is absurd for those who don't want to solve the problem. On the other hand, it is workable and effective.
No. It's anyone who completely fails to do their role. You can be a fake without being a fraud. Fake doesn't require deception (although it's usually the case.)
This is wrong. If some player is doing an arena and fails to do it, he is not fake arena runner, he is simply not competent (yet). The same applies to all dungeon or trial roles, to housing, to fashion, to crafting.
Failing to do it, and failing to be capable of doing it are two different things. If someone has enough damage to pass a bottom of the barrel dps check, but keeps failing because they are bad at the mechanics. That is someone who is merely incompetent.
A person who has 40k HP and 2k DPS, is a tank without a taunt. And no amount of getting better at the mechanics will allow them to perform their role adequately. They need to make actual changes to their build, same as a fake tank needs to slot a taunt and cannot possibly maintain aggro without one. They are fundamentally not fulfilling the basic requirements of the role.
It has always been the case for this game that "Fake" is intended to mean a player who is misrepresenting their role while intentionally playing another role. A player is a fake tank because they are queuing as a tank but entirely intending to play the dungeon as a DPS.
A player who has 40K health and 2K DPS is not a fake DPS, unless they are sitting there taunting the boss and performing the actual role of a tank.
Are they extremely bad at their role, absolutely. Are they intending to deceive players by the role they chose to queue as, no.
That has always been what people are referring to as Fake in this game. Being incompetent, or even uninformed about the expectations of your role is not Fake.1 -
Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »
Buyers remorse is when someone makes a purchase and they dont feel good about it. That is different than making a purchase in good faith only to find out the purchase is trash/junk/broken/badly designed etc and then feel upset with the purchase.
EDIT: Most of the time, buyers remorse comes from being "sold" an item, something you were not really expecting to purchase, but did so due to some sales hype mechanic through advertising or a sales person.Factors that affect buyer's remorse may include: resources invested, the involvement of the purchaser, whether the purchase is compatible with the purchaser's goals, feelings encountered post-purchase that include regret.
If you purchase something and then realize it may conflict with personal goals, it's buyer's remorse.
The product isn't faulty. It is giving you exactly what it says will, access to the dungeons.
It's not about conflicting with personal goals, its about the realization that what you purchased is not as advertised, or broken.
The product is faulty, because its not mentioned anywhere that those dungeons are going to be a royal pain with fake tanks and people who are not ready for the content.
As I said previously, people make the purchase in good faith. The mindset of a good faith purchase does not lead to buyers remorse unless the product if faulty. You can't know if a product is faulty until you use it. This is why lemon laws exist.
It is easy to avoid getting a fake tank so there is no faulty advertising. I do most dungeons without a fake tank. Occasionally, not often, I do choose to queue solo and understand there is a risk of getting lesser skilled players or fake tanks. However, I rarely choose to be that adventurous. I prefer to know I will have a good group and the run will go well. Again, a choice but one each of us makes for ourselves.
Using the in game supplied dungeon finder to queue for a dungeon often has other players queuing as "fake tanks" making the dungeon run less fun for the myriad of reasons people have listed.
Other MMORPGs do not have the problem of fake tanks because the design of the game ensures the people selecting their roles at least meet a gear and skill check before they can queue as a tank or healer, or even DPS. This is not the case in ESO. There is an assumption, which is established by long standing, long term MMORPG's, some of which are the most popular in history who literally wrote the rules for what it means to be an MMORPG. Some of these mechanics are expected in other games, so much in fact many of the same mechanics are used in these games. For example. White, Green, Blue, Purple, Orange/Yellow to describe quality of gear. This is almost universally used, because its become accepted.
When queuing up for a random dungeon with a random group of people, there is an assumption made (rightfully so) that the tank is a tank, the DPS are DPS and the healer is a healer. Other mmorpgs make sure this happens, ESO does not.
I am fully aware of why players end up with fake tanks and alluded to that in my post you quoted.
Other games have more specific definitions of what a tank is. As such there are some controls. Controls that are not possible, or at the very least extremely ineffective. Realizing this there is no real solution other than to redesign character builds to be very restrictive. The "solutions" I have seen in the various threads are either not workable or ineffective to the point they are pointless. The only real solution is the easy one of forming one's own group.
The skeevaton phase proves that it is possible to alter available skills on the fly. That means that it is very much possible to enforce only certain skills for tanks and healers on entering the dungeon through dungeon finder.
How does the skeevaton phase force a player to taunt? Yes it can force them into a different skill set and make them figure out what each skill does (not a great idea to have to read tooltips in the middle of a fight) or play a role they do not play. Even then it does not force them to taunt.
Will the skeevaton phase idea also make DDs do good damage or pay attention to mechanics so they do not die? That is the real issue as to why real tanks avoid the GF.
I say this as one who has healed random groups and out DPSed the group while healing. I thought that was sad. With my tank, I will not waste my time in such a manner and that is the real problem the GF faces.
Bad tanks are not fake tanks, bad healers are not fake healers, bad damage dealers are not fake damage dealers. Fake roles are those who don't even have and don't use skills (tools) that are part of their role. You can't enforce somebody to be good at any role, but you can enforce somebody to use skills necessary for that role by blocking skills of other roles. If the only thing as a tank you can do is to taunt, you will taunt and thus do the bare minimum.
I agree that bad tanks are not fake tanks. However, the best this idea would do is to stop fake tanks from queueing as a fake tank. After all, if they really wanted to taunt and tank they would have done the little big of effort to be able to do so at the start.
Groups will merely wait longer for the queue to pop because the solution does not solve the real problem as to why real tanks refuse to run with GF group. Until that is solved nothing really changes for the good.0 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »
Buyers remorse is when someone makes a purchase and they dont feel good about it. That is different than making a purchase in good faith only to find out the purchase is trash/junk/broken/badly designed etc and then feel upset with the purchase.
EDIT: Most of the time, buyers remorse comes from being "sold" an item, something you were not really expecting to purchase, but did so due to some sales hype mechanic through advertising or a sales person.Factors that affect buyer's remorse may include: resources invested, the involvement of the purchaser, whether the purchase is compatible with the purchaser's goals, feelings encountered post-purchase that include regret.
If you purchase something and then realize it may conflict with personal goals, it's buyer's remorse.
The product isn't faulty. It is giving you exactly what it says will, access to the dungeons.
It's not about conflicting with personal goals, its about the realization that what you purchased is not as advertised, or broken.
The product is faulty, because its not mentioned anywhere that those dungeons are going to be a royal pain with fake tanks and people who are not ready for the content.
As I said previously, people make the purchase in good faith. The mindset of a good faith purchase does not lead to buyers remorse unless the product if faulty. You can't know if a product is faulty until you use it. This is why lemon laws exist.
It is easy to avoid getting a fake tank so there is no faulty advertising. I do most dungeons without a fake tank. Occasionally, not often, I do choose to queue solo and understand there is a risk of getting lesser skilled players or fake tanks. However, I rarely choose to be that adventurous. I prefer to know I will have a good group and the run will go well. Again, a choice but one each of us makes for ourselves.
Using the in game supplied dungeon finder to queue for a dungeon often has other players queuing as "fake tanks" making the dungeon run less fun for the myriad of reasons people have listed.
Other MMORPGs do not have the problem of fake tanks because the design of the game ensures the people selecting their roles at least meet a gear and skill check before they can queue as a tank or healer, or even DPS. This is not the case in ESO. There is an assumption, which is established by long standing, long term MMORPG's, some of which are the most popular in history who literally wrote the rules for what it means to be an MMORPG. Some of these mechanics are expected in other games, so much in fact many of the same mechanics are used in these games. For example. White, Green, Blue, Purple, Orange/Yellow to describe quality of gear. This is almost universally used, because its become accepted.
When queuing up for a random dungeon with a random group of people, there is an assumption made (rightfully so) that the tank is a tank, the DPS are DPS and the healer is a healer. Other mmorpgs make sure this happens, ESO does not.
I am fully aware of why players end up with fake tanks and alluded to that in my post you quoted.
Other games have more specific definitions of what a tank is. As such there are some controls. Controls that are not possible, or at the very least extremely ineffective. Realizing this there is no real solution other than to redesign character builds to be very restrictive. The "solutions" I have seen in the various threads are either not workable or ineffective to the point they are pointless. The only real solution is the easy one of forming one's own group.
The skeevaton phase proves that it is possible to alter available skills on the fly. That means that it is very much possible to enforce only certain skills for tanks and healers on entering the dungeon through dungeon finder.
How does the skeevaton phase force a player to taunt? Yes it can force them into a different skill set and make them figure out what each skill does (not a great idea to have to read tooltips in the middle of a fight) or play a role they do not play. Even then it does not force them to taunt.
Will the skeevaton phase idea also make DDs do good damage or pay attention to mechanics so they do not die? That is the real issue as to why real tanks avoid the GF.
I say this as one who has healed random groups and out DPSed the group while healing. I thought that was sad. With my tank, I will not waste my time in such a manner and that is the real problem the GF faces.
Bad tanks are not fake tanks, bad healers are not fake healers, bad damage dealers are not fake damage dealers. Fake roles are those who don't even have and don't use skills (tools) that are part of their role. You can't enforce somebody to be good at any role, but you can enforce somebody to use skills necessary for that role by blocking skills of other roles. If the only thing as a tank you can do is to taunt, you will taunt and thus do the bare minimum.
Fakes are anyone not doing their role.
Tanks should be doing damage, as should healers. Dps should be able to swap into or always carry a self heal.
I'm not necessarily opposed to forcing a taunt onto the bar of anyone who queues tank, but locking tanks out of damage skills is absurd
Fake roles are those who don't try to do their role, not those who are doing it bad. A tank without taunt, a healer without heal, a damage dealer without damaging skill. Everyone else are not fake.
It is absurd for those who don't want to solve the problem. On the other hand, it is workable and effective.
No. It's anyone who completely fails to do their role. You can be a fake without being a fraud. Fake doesn't require deception (although it's usually the case.)
This is wrong. If some player is doing an arena and fails to do it, he is not fake arena runner, he is simply not competent (yet). The same applies to all dungeon or trial roles, to housing, to fashion, to crafting.
Failing to do it, and failing to be capable of doing it are two different things. If someone has enough damage to pass a bottom of the barrel dps check, but keeps failing because they are bad at the mechanics. That is someone who is merely incompetent.
A person who has 40k HP and 2k DPS, is a tank without a taunt. And no amount of getting better at the mechanics will allow them to perform their role adequately. They need to make actual changes to their build, same as a fake tank needs to slot a taunt and cannot possibly maintain aggro without one. They are fundamentally not fulfilling the basic requirements of the role.
It has always been the case for this game that "Fake" is intended to mean a player who is misrepresenting their role while intentionally playing another role. A player is a fake tank because they are queuing as a tank but entirely intending to play the dungeon as a DPS.
A player who has 40K health and 2K DPS is not a fake DPS, unless they are sitting there taunting the boss and performing the actual role of a tank.
Are they extremely bad at their role, absolutely. Are they intending to deceive players by the role they chose to queue as, no.
That has always been what people are referring to as Fake in this game. Being incompetent, or even uninformed about the expectations of your role is not Fake.
Many, many people use the term "Fake dps" to describe such dps, especially tanks citing them as a reason why they don't queue for vet dungeons. I appreciate there is a difference in intent, but it doesn't change that all the fake roles cause issues and that fake is a perfectly adequate term to describe it. There has definitely always been people who take issue with people who call those DPS fake because they think that they aren't deceptive should be acknowledged, but not everyone shares that POV. And the most objective source on the matter, the definition of fake itself, does not mandate deception.Edited by spartaxoxo on December 3, 2021 6:51PM0 -
Olauron✭✭✭✭✭
✭spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »
Buyers remorse is when someone makes a purchase and they dont feel good about it. That is different than making a purchase in good faith only to find out the purchase is trash/junk/broken/badly designed etc and then feel upset with the purchase.
EDIT: Most of the time, buyers remorse comes from being "sold" an item, something you were not really expecting to purchase, but did so due to some sales hype mechanic through advertising or a sales person.Factors that affect buyer's remorse may include: resources invested, the involvement of the purchaser, whether the purchase is compatible with the purchaser's goals, feelings encountered post-purchase that include regret.
If you purchase something and then realize it may conflict with personal goals, it's buyer's remorse.
The product isn't faulty. It is giving you exactly what it says will, access to the dungeons.
It's not about conflicting with personal goals, its about the realization that what you purchased is not as advertised, or broken.
The product is faulty, because its not mentioned anywhere that those dungeons are going to be a royal pain with fake tanks and people who are not ready for the content.
As I said previously, people make the purchase in good faith. The mindset of a good faith purchase does not lead to buyers remorse unless the product if faulty. You can't know if a product is faulty until you use it. This is why lemon laws exist.
It is easy to avoid getting a fake tank so there is no faulty advertising. I do most dungeons without a fake tank. Occasionally, not often, I do choose to queue solo and understand there is a risk of getting lesser skilled players or fake tanks. However, I rarely choose to be that adventurous. I prefer to know I will have a good group and the run will go well. Again, a choice but one each of us makes for ourselves.
Using the in game supplied dungeon finder to queue for a dungeon often has other players queuing as "fake tanks" making the dungeon run less fun for the myriad of reasons people have listed.
Other MMORPGs do not have the problem of fake tanks because the design of the game ensures the people selecting their roles at least meet a gear and skill check before they can queue as a tank or healer, or even DPS. This is not the case in ESO. There is an assumption, which is established by long standing, long term MMORPG's, some of which are the most popular in history who literally wrote the rules for what it means to be an MMORPG. Some of these mechanics are expected in other games, so much in fact many of the same mechanics are used in these games. For example. White, Green, Blue, Purple, Orange/Yellow to describe quality of gear. This is almost universally used, because its become accepted.
When queuing up for a random dungeon with a random group of people, there is an assumption made (rightfully so) that the tank is a tank, the DPS are DPS and the healer is a healer. Other mmorpgs make sure this happens, ESO does not.
I am fully aware of why players end up with fake tanks and alluded to that in my post you quoted.
Other games have more specific definitions of what a tank is. As such there are some controls. Controls that are not possible, or at the very least extremely ineffective. Realizing this there is no real solution other than to redesign character builds to be very restrictive. The "solutions" I have seen in the various threads are either not workable or ineffective to the point they are pointless. The only real solution is the easy one of forming one's own group.
The skeevaton phase proves that it is possible to alter available skills on the fly. That means that it is very much possible to enforce only certain skills for tanks and healers on entering the dungeon through dungeon finder.
How does the skeevaton phase force a player to taunt? Yes it can force them into a different skill set and make them figure out what each skill does (not a great idea to have to read tooltips in the middle of a fight) or play a role they do not play. Even then it does not force them to taunt.
Will the skeevaton phase idea also make DDs do good damage or pay attention to mechanics so they do not die? That is the real issue as to why real tanks avoid the GF.
I say this as one who has healed random groups and out DPSed the group while healing. I thought that was sad. With my tank, I will not waste my time in such a manner and that is the real problem the GF faces.
Bad tanks are not fake tanks, bad healers are not fake healers, bad damage dealers are not fake damage dealers. Fake roles are those who don't even have and don't use skills (tools) that are part of their role. You can't enforce somebody to be good at any role, but you can enforce somebody to use skills necessary for that role by blocking skills of other roles. If the only thing as a tank you can do is to taunt, you will taunt and thus do the bare minimum.
Fakes are anyone not doing their role.
Tanks should be doing damage, as should healers. Dps should be able to swap into or always carry a self heal.
I'm not necessarily opposed to forcing a taunt onto the bar of anyone who queues tank, but locking tanks out of damage skills is absurd
Fake roles are those who don't try to do their role, not those who are doing it bad. A tank without taunt, a healer without heal, a damage dealer without damaging skill. Everyone else are not fake.
It is absurd for those who don't want to solve the problem. On the other hand, it is workable and effective.
No. It's anyone who completely fails to do their role. You can be a fake without being a fraud. Fake doesn't require deception (although it's usually the case.)
This is wrong. If some player is doing an arena and fails to do it, he is not fake arena runner, he is simply not competent (yet). The same applies to all dungeon or trial roles, to housing, to fashion, to crafting.
Failing to do it, and failing to be capable of doing it are two different things. If someone has enough damage to pass a bottom of the barrel dps check, but keeps failing because they are bad at the mechanics. That is someone who is merely incompetent.
A person who has 40k HP and 2k DPS, is a tank without a taunt. And no amount of getting better at the mechanics will allow them to perform their role adequately. They need to make actual changes to their build, same as a fake tank needs to slot a taunt and cannot possibly maintain aggro without one. They are fundamentally not fulfilling the basic requirements of the role.
Being incompetent and being incapable is not only about mechanics. It is about a build as well. An arena runner with the wrong build is still not fake arena runner. A person with 40k health and 2k dps is not a tank, just a fat damage dealer. He may need to change his build, but he doesn't need to change his activity (dealing damage). This is extremely important that his activity remains the same.The Three Storm Sharks, episode 8 released on january the 8th.
One mer to rule them all,
one mer to find them,
One mer to bring them all
and in the darkness bind them.1 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »
Buyers remorse is when someone makes a purchase and they dont feel good about it. That is different than making a purchase in good faith only to find out the purchase is trash/junk/broken/badly designed etc and then feel upset with the purchase.
EDIT: Most of the time, buyers remorse comes from being "sold" an item, something you were not really expecting to purchase, but did so due to some sales hype mechanic through advertising or a sales person.Factors that affect buyer's remorse may include: resources invested, the involvement of the purchaser, whether the purchase is compatible with the purchaser's goals, feelings encountered post-purchase that include regret.
If you purchase something and then realize it may conflict with personal goals, it's buyer's remorse.
The product isn't faulty. It is giving you exactly what it says will, access to the dungeons.
It's not about conflicting with personal goals, its about the realization that what you purchased is not as advertised, or broken.
The product is faulty, because its not mentioned anywhere that those dungeons are going to be a royal pain with fake tanks and people who are not ready for the content.
As I said previously, people make the purchase in good faith. The mindset of a good faith purchase does not lead to buyers remorse unless the product if faulty. You can't know if a product is faulty until you use it. This is why lemon laws exist.
It is easy to avoid getting a fake tank so there is no faulty advertising. I do most dungeons without a fake tank. Occasionally, not often, I do choose to queue solo and understand there is a risk of getting lesser skilled players or fake tanks. However, I rarely choose to be that adventurous. I prefer to know I will have a good group and the run will go well. Again, a choice but one each of us makes for ourselves.
Using the in game supplied dungeon finder to queue for a dungeon often has other players queuing as "fake tanks" making the dungeon run less fun for the myriad of reasons people have listed.
Other MMORPGs do not have the problem of fake tanks because the design of the game ensures the people selecting their roles at least meet a gear and skill check before they can queue as a tank or healer, or even DPS. This is not the case in ESO. There is an assumption, which is established by long standing, long term MMORPG's, some of which are the most popular in history who literally wrote the rules for what it means to be an MMORPG. Some of these mechanics are expected in other games, so much in fact many of the same mechanics are used in these games. For example. White, Green, Blue, Purple, Orange/Yellow to describe quality of gear. This is almost universally used, because its become accepted.
When queuing up for a random dungeon with a random group of people, there is an assumption made (rightfully so) that the tank is a tank, the DPS are DPS and the healer is a healer. Other mmorpgs make sure this happens, ESO does not.
I am fully aware of why players end up with fake tanks and alluded to that in my post you quoted.
Other games have more specific definitions of what a tank is. As such there are some controls. Controls that are not possible, or at the very least extremely ineffective. Realizing this there is no real solution other than to redesign character builds to be very restrictive. The "solutions" I have seen in the various threads are either not workable or ineffective to the point they are pointless. The only real solution is the easy one of forming one's own group.
The skeevaton phase proves that it is possible to alter available skills on the fly. That means that it is very much possible to enforce only certain skills for tanks and healers on entering the dungeon through dungeon finder.
How does the skeevaton phase force a player to taunt? Yes it can force them into a different skill set and make them figure out what each skill does (not a great idea to have to read tooltips in the middle of a fight) or play a role they do not play. Even then it does not force them to taunt.
Will the skeevaton phase idea also make DDs do good damage or pay attention to mechanics so they do not die? That is the real issue as to why real tanks avoid the GF.
I say this as one who has healed random groups and out DPSed the group while healing. I thought that was sad. With my tank, I will not waste my time in such a manner and that is the real problem the GF faces.
Bad tanks are not fake tanks, bad healers are not fake healers, bad damage dealers are not fake damage dealers. Fake roles are those who don't even have and don't use skills (tools) that are part of their role. You can't enforce somebody to be good at any role, but you can enforce somebody to use skills necessary for that role by blocking skills of other roles. If the only thing as a tank you can do is to taunt, you will taunt and thus do the bare minimum.
Fakes are anyone not doing their role.
Tanks should be doing damage, as should healers. Dps should be able to swap into or always carry a self heal.
I'm not necessarily opposed to forcing a taunt onto the bar of anyone who queues tank, but locking tanks out of damage skills is absurd
Fake roles are those who don't try to do their role, not those who are doing it bad. A tank without taunt, a healer without heal, a damage dealer without damaging skill. Everyone else are not fake.
It is absurd for those who don't want to solve the problem. On the other hand, it is workable and effective.
No. It's anyone who completely fails to do their role. You can be a fake without being a fraud. Fake doesn't require deception (although it's usually the case.)
This is wrong. If some player is doing an arena and fails to do it, he is not fake arena runner, he is simply not competent (yet). The same applies to all dungeon or trial roles, to housing, to fashion, to crafting.
Failing to do it, and failing to be capable of doing it are two different things. If someone has enough damage to pass a bottom of the barrel dps check, but keeps failing because they are bad at the mechanics. That is someone who is merely incompetent.
A person who has 40k HP and 2k DPS, is a tank without a taunt. And no amount of getting better at the mechanics will allow them to perform their role adequately. They need to make actual changes to their build, same as a fake tank needs to slot a taunt and cannot possibly maintain aggro without one. They are fundamentally not fulfilling the basic requirements of the role.
Being incompetent and being incapable is not only about mechanics. It is about a build as well. An arena runner with the wrong build is still not fake arena runner. A person with 40k health and 2k dps is not a tank, just a fat damage dealer. He may need to change his build, but he doesn't need to change his activity (dealing damage). This is extremely important that his activity remains the same.
A fake tank doesn't need to change their activity either. They can easily keep queueing as a tank and just slot a taunt. It's what I do. Both merely require a change in build to bring them into minimum performance of the role.Edited by spartaxoxo on December 3, 2021 6:53PM0 -
Alemtuzumab✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »
Buyers remorse is when someone makes a purchase and they dont feel good about it. That is different than making a purchase in good faith only to find out the purchase is trash/junk/broken/badly designed etc and then feel upset with the purchase.
EDIT: Most of the time, buyers remorse comes from being "sold" an item, something you were not really expecting to purchase, but did so due to some sales hype mechanic through advertising or a sales person.Factors that affect buyer's remorse may include: resources invested, the involvement of the purchaser, whether the purchase is compatible with the purchaser's goals, feelings encountered post-purchase that include regret.
If you purchase something and then realize it may conflict with personal goals, it's buyer's remorse.
The product isn't faulty. It is giving you exactly what it says will, access to the dungeons.
It's not about conflicting with personal goals, its about the realization that what you purchased is not as advertised, or broken.
The product is faulty, because its not mentioned anywhere that those dungeons are going to be a royal pain with fake tanks and people who are not ready for the content.
As I said previously, people make the purchase in good faith. The mindset of a good faith purchase does not lead to buyers remorse unless the product if faulty. You can't know if a product is faulty until you use it. This is why lemon laws exist.
It is easy to avoid getting a fake tank so there is no faulty advertising. I do most dungeons without a fake tank. Occasionally, not often, I do choose to queue solo and understand there is a risk of getting lesser skilled players or fake tanks. However, I rarely choose to be that adventurous. I prefer to know I will have a good group and the run will go well. Again, a choice but one each of us makes for ourselves.
Using the in game supplied dungeon finder to queue for a dungeon often has other players queuing as "fake tanks" making the dungeon run less fun for the myriad of reasons people have listed.
Other MMORPGs do not have the problem of fake tanks because the design of the game ensures the people selecting their roles at least meet a gear and skill check before they can queue as a tank or healer, or even DPS. This is not the case in ESO. There is an assumption, which is established by long standing, long term MMORPG's, some of which are the most popular in history who literally wrote the rules for what it means to be an MMORPG. Some of these mechanics are expected in other games, so much in fact many of the same mechanics are used in these games. For example. White, Green, Blue, Purple, Orange/Yellow to describe quality of gear. This is almost universally used, because its become accepted.
When queuing up for a random dungeon with a random group of people, there is an assumption made (rightfully so) that the tank is a tank, the DPS are DPS and the healer is a healer. Other mmorpgs make sure this happens, ESO does not.
I am fully aware of why players end up with fake tanks and alluded to that in my post you quoted.
Other games have more specific definitions of what a tank is. As such there are some controls. Controls that are not possible, or at the very least extremely ineffective. Realizing this there is no real solution other than to redesign character builds to be very restrictive. The "solutions" I have seen in the various threads are either not workable or ineffective to the point they are pointless. The only real solution is the easy one of forming one's own group.
The skeevaton phase proves that it is possible to alter available skills on the fly. That means that it is very much possible to enforce only certain skills for tanks and healers on entering the dungeon through dungeon finder.
How does the skeevaton phase force a player to taunt? Yes it can force them into a different skill set and make them figure out what each skill does (not a great idea to have to read tooltips in the middle of a fight) or play a role they do not play. Even then it does not force them to taunt.
Will the skeevaton phase idea also make DDs do good damage or pay attention to mechanics so they do not die? That is the real issue as to why real tanks avoid the GF.
I say this as one who has healed random groups and out DPSed the group while healing. I thought that was sad. With my tank, I will not waste my time in such a manner and that is the real problem the GF faces.
Bad tanks are not fake tanks, bad healers are not fake healers, bad damage dealers are not fake damage dealers. Fake roles are those who don't even have and don't use skills (tools) that are part of their role. You can't enforce somebody to be good at any role, but you can enforce somebody to use skills necessary for that role by blocking skills of other roles. If the only thing as a tank you can do is to taunt, you will taunt and thus do the bare minimum.
Fakes are anyone not doing their role.
Tanks should be doing damage, as should healers. Dps should be able to swap into or always carry a self heal.
I'm not necessarily opposed to forcing a taunt onto the bar of anyone who queues tank, but locking tanks out of damage skills is absurd
Fake roles are those who don't try to do their role, not those who are doing it bad. A tank without taunt, a healer without heal, a damage dealer without damaging skill. Everyone else are not fake.
It is absurd for those who don't want to solve the problem. On the other hand, it is workable and effective.
No. It's anyone who completely fails to do their role. You can be a fake without being a fraud. Fake doesn't require deception (although it's usually the case.)
This is wrong. If some player is doing an arena and fails to do it, he is not fake arena runner, he is simply not competent (yet). The same applies to all dungeon or trial roles, to housing, to fashion, to crafting.
Failing to do it, and failing to be capable of doing it are two different things. If someone has enough damage to pass a bottom of the barrel dps check, but keeps failing because they are bad at the mechanics. That is someone who is merely incompetent.
A person who has 40k HP and 2k DPS, is a tank without a taunt. And no amount of getting better at the mechanics will allow them to perform their role adequately. They need to make actual changes to their build, same as a fake tank needs to slot a taunt and cannot possibly maintain aggro without one. They are fundamentally not fulfilling the basic requirements of the role.
Being incompetent and being incapable is not only about mechanics. It is about a build as well. An arena runner with the wrong build is still not fake arena runner. A person with 40k health and 2k dps is not a tank, just a fat damage dealer. He may need to change his build, but he doesn't need to change his activity (dealing damage). This is extremely important that his activity remains the same.
A dps dealing <10k dps is fake/incompetent/incapable or whatever, it doesn’t matter.
Just leave and come back later. Pick some flowers during the 15min cooldown.
Problem solved.
0 -
Olauron✭✭✭✭✭
✭spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »
Buyers remorse is when someone makes a purchase and they dont feel good about it. That is different than making a purchase in good faith only to find out the purchase is trash/junk/broken/badly designed etc and then feel upset with the purchase.
EDIT: Most of the time, buyers remorse comes from being "sold" an item, something you were not really expecting to purchase, but did so due to some sales hype mechanic through advertising or a sales person.Factors that affect buyer's remorse may include: resources invested, the involvement of the purchaser, whether the purchase is compatible with the purchaser's goals, feelings encountered post-purchase that include regret.
If you purchase something and then realize it may conflict with personal goals, it's buyer's remorse.
The product isn't faulty. It is giving you exactly what it says will, access to the dungeons.
It's not about conflicting with personal goals, its about the realization that what you purchased is not as advertised, or broken.
The product is faulty, because its not mentioned anywhere that those dungeons are going to be a royal pain with fake tanks and people who are not ready for the content.
As I said previously, people make the purchase in good faith. The mindset of a good faith purchase does not lead to buyers remorse unless the product if faulty. You can't know if a product is faulty until you use it. This is why lemon laws exist.
It is easy to avoid getting a fake tank so there is no faulty advertising. I do most dungeons without a fake tank. Occasionally, not often, I do choose to queue solo and understand there is a risk of getting lesser skilled players or fake tanks. However, I rarely choose to be that adventurous. I prefer to know I will have a good group and the run will go well. Again, a choice but one each of us makes for ourselves.
Using the in game supplied dungeon finder to queue for a dungeon often has other players queuing as "fake tanks" making the dungeon run less fun for the myriad of reasons people have listed.
Other MMORPGs do not have the problem of fake tanks because the design of the game ensures the people selecting their roles at least meet a gear and skill check before they can queue as a tank or healer, or even DPS. This is not the case in ESO. There is an assumption, which is established by long standing, long term MMORPG's, some of which are the most popular in history who literally wrote the rules for what it means to be an MMORPG. Some of these mechanics are expected in other games, so much in fact many of the same mechanics are used in these games. For example. White, Green, Blue, Purple, Orange/Yellow to describe quality of gear. This is almost universally used, because its become accepted.
When queuing up for a random dungeon with a random group of people, there is an assumption made (rightfully so) that the tank is a tank, the DPS are DPS and the healer is a healer. Other mmorpgs make sure this happens, ESO does not.
I am fully aware of why players end up with fake tanks and alluded to that in my post you quoted.
Other games have more specific definitions of what a tank is. As such there are some controls. Controls that are not possible, or at the very least extremely ineffective. Realizing this there is no real solution other than to redesign character builds to be very restrictive. The "solutions" I have seen in the various threads are either not workable or ineffective to the point they are pointless. The only real solution is the easy one of forming one's own group.
The skeevaton phase proves that it is possible to alter available skills on the fly. That means that it is very much possible to enforce only certain skills for tanks and healers on entering the dungeon through dungeon finder.
How does the skeevaton phase force a player to taunt? Yes it can force them into a different skill set and make them figure out what each skill does (not a great idea to have to read tooltips in the middle of a fight) or play a role they do not play. Even then it does not force them to taunt.
Will the skeevaton phase idea also make DDs do good damage or pay attention to mechanics so they do not die? That is the real issue as to why real tanks avoid the GF.
I say this as one who has healed random groups and out DPSed the group while healing. I thought that was sad. With my tank, I will not waste my time in such a manner and that is the real problem the GF faces.
Bad tanks are not fake tanks, bad healers are not fake healers, bad damage dealers are not fake damage dealers. Fake roles are those who don't even have and don't use skills (tools) that are part of their role. You can't enforce somebody to be good at any role, but you can enforce somebody to use skills necessary for that role by blocking skills of other roles. If the only thing as a tank you can do is to taunt, you will taunt and thus do the bare minimum.
I agree that bad tanks are not fake tanks. However, the best this idea would do is to stop fake tanks from queueing as a fake tank. After all, if they really wanted to taunt and tank they would have done the little big of effort to be able to do so at the start.
Groups will merely wait longer for the queue to pop because the solution does not solve the real problem as to why real tanks refuse to run with GF group. Until that is solved nothing really changes for the good.
There is no intent to solve all the problems with one solution. There is intent to solve the problem of fake tanks entering the dungeons. Players not wanting to be tanks in random dungeons is the other problem, players not wanting to do dungeons is the other problem, and each problem requires its own solution.spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »
Buyers remorse is when someone makes a purchase and they dont feel good about it. That is different than making a purchase in good faith only to find out the purchase is trash/junk/broken/badly designed etc and then feel upset with the purchase.
EDIT: Most of the time, buyers remorse comes from being "sold" an item, something you were not really expecting to purchase, but did so due to some sales hype mechanic through advertising or a sales person.Factors that affect buyer's remorse may include: resources invested, the involvement of the purchaser, whether the purchase is compatible with the purchaser's goals, feelings encountered post-purchase that include regret.
If you purchase something and then realize it may conflict with personal goals, it's buyer's remorse.
The product isn't faulty. It is giving you exactly what it says will, access to the dungeons.
It's not about conflicting with personal goals, its about the realization that what you purchased is not as advertised, or broken.
The product is faulty, because its not mentioned anywhere that those dungeons are going to be a royal pain with fake tanks and people who are not ready for the content.
As I said previously, people make the purchase in good faith. The mindset of a good faith purchase does not lead to buyers remorse unless the product if faulty. You can't know if a product is faulty until you use it. This is why lemon laws exist.
It is easy to avoid getting a fake tank so there is no faulty advertising. I do most dungeons without a fake tank. Occasionally, not often, I do choose to queue solo and understand there is a risk of getting lesser skilled players or fake tanks. However, I rarely choose to be that adventurous. I prefer to know I will have a good group and the run will go well. Again, a choice but one each of us makes for ourselves.
Using the in game supplied dungeon finder to queue for a dungeon often has other players queuing as "fake tanks" making the dungeon run less fun for the myriad of reasons people have listed.
Other MMORPGs do not have the problem of fake tanks because the design of the game ensures the people selecting their roles at least meet a gear and skill check before they can queue as a tank or healer, or even DPS. This is not the case in ESO. There is an assumption, which is established by long standing, long term MMORPG's, some of which are the most popular in history who literally wrote the rules for what it means to be an MMORPG. Some of these mechanics are expected in other games, so much in fact many of the same mechanics are used in these games. For example. White, Green, Blue, Purple, Orange/Yellow to describe quality of gear. This is almost universally used, because its become accepted.
When queuing up for a random dungeon with a random group of people, there is an assumption made (rightfully so) that the tank is a tank, the DPS are DPS and the healer is a healer. Other mmorpgs make sure this happens, ESO does not.
I am fully aware of why players end up with fake tanks and alluded to that in my post you quoted.
Other games have more specific definitions of what a tank is. As such there are some controls. Controls that are not possible, or at the very least extremely ineffective. Realizing this there is no real solution other than to redesign character builds to be very restrictive. The "solutions" I have seen in the various threads are either not workable or ineffective to the point they are pointless. The only real solution is the easy one of forming one's own group.
The skeevaton phase proves that it is possible to alter available skills on the fly. That means that it is very much possible to enforce only certain skills for tanks and healers on entering the dungeon through dungeon finder.
How does the skeevaton phase force a player to taunt? Yes it can force them into a different skill set and make them figure out what each skill does (not a great idea to have to read tooltips in the middle of a fight) or play a role they do not play. Even then it does not force them to taunt.
Will the skeevaton phase idea also make DDs do good damage or pay attention to mechanics so they do not die? That is the real issue as to why real tanks avoid the GF.
I say this as one who has healed random groups and out DPSed the group while healing. I thought that was sad. With my tank, I will not waste my time in such a manner and that is the real problem the GF faces.
Bad tanks are not fake tanks, bad healers are not fake healers, bad damage dealers are not fake damage dealers. Fake roles are those who don't even have and don't use skills (tools) that are part of their role. You can't enforce somebody to be good at any role, but you can enforce somebody to use skills necessary for that role by blocking skills of other roles. If the only thing as a tank you can do is to taunt, you will taunt and thus do the bare minimum.
Fakes are anyone not doing their role.
Tanks should be doing damage, as should healers. Dps should be able to swap into or always carry a self heal.
I'm not necessarily opposed to forcing a taunt onto the bar of anyone who queues tank, but locking tanks out of damage skills is absurd
Fake roles are those who don't try to do their role, not those who are doing it bad. A tank without taunt, a healer without heal, a damage dealer without damaging skill. Everyone else are not fake.
It is absurd for those who don't want to solve the problem. On the other hand, it is workable and effective.
No. It's anyone who completely fails to do their role. You can be a fake without being a fraud. Fake doesn't require deception (although it's usually the case.)
This is wrong. If some player is doing an arena and fails to do it, he is not fake arena runner, he is simply not competent (yet). The same applies to all dungeon or trial roles, to housing, to fashion, to crafting.
Failing to do it, and failing to be capable of doing it are two different things. If someone has enough damage to pass a bottom of the barrel dps check, but keeps failing because they are bad at the mechanics. That is someone who is merely incompetent.
A person who has 40k HP and 2k DPS, is a tank without a taunt. And no amount of getting better at the mechanics will allow them to perform their role adequately. They need to make actual changes to their build, same as a fake tank needs to slot a taunt and cannot possibly maintain aggro without one. They are fundamentally not fulfilling the basic requirements of the role.
Being incompetent and being incapable is not only about mechanics. It is about a build as well. An arena runner with the wrong build is still not fake arena runner. A person with 40k health and 2k dps is not a tank, just a fat damage dealer. He may need to change his build, but he doesn't need to change his activity (dealing damage). This is extremely important that his activity remains the same.
A fake tank doesn't need to change their activity either. They can easily keep queueing as a tank and just slot a taunt. It's what I do. Both merely require a change in build to bring them into minimum performance of the role.
Taunting instead of dealing damage is a change of activity. Dealing more damage instead of dealing less damage is not a change of activity.Alemtuzumab wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »
Buyers remorse is when someone makes a purchase and they dont feel good about it. That is different than making a purchase in good faith only to find out the purchase is trash/junk/broken/badly designed etc and then feel upset with the purchase.
EDIT: Most of the time, buyers remorse comes from being "sold" an item, something you were not really expecting to purchase, but did so due to some sales hype mechanic through advertising or a sales person.Factors that affect buyer's remorse may include: resources invested, the involvement of the purchaser, whether the purchase is compatible with the purchaser's goals, feelings encountered post-purchase that include regret.
If you purchase something and then realize it may conflict with personal goals, it's buyer's remorse.
The product isn't faulty. It is giving you exactly what it says will, access to the dungeons.
It's not about conflicting with personal goals, its about the realization that what you purchased is not as advertised, or broken.
The product is faulty, because its not mentioned anywhere that those dungeons are going to be a royal pain with fake tanks and people who are not ready for the content.
As I said previously, people make the purchase in good faith. The mindset of a good faith purchase does not lead to buyers remorse unless the product if faulty. You can't know if a product is faulty until you use it. This is why lemon laws exist.
It is easy to avoid getting a fake tank so there is no faulty advertising. I do most dungeons without a fake tank. Occasionally, not often, I do choose to queue solo and understand there is a risk of getting lesser skilled players or fake tanks. However, I rarely choose to be that adventurous. I prefer to know I will have a good group and the run will go well. Again, a choice but one each of us makes for ourselves.
Using the in game supplied dungeon finder to queue for a dungeon often has other players queuing as "fake tanks" making the dungeon run less fun for the myriad of reasons people have listed.
Other MMORPGs do not have the problem of fake tanks because the design of the game ensures the people selecting their roles at least meet a gear and skill check before they can queue as a tank or healer, or even DPS. This is not the case in ESO. There is an assumption, which is established by long standing, long term MMORPG's, some of which are the most popular in history who literally wrote the rules for what it means to be an MMORPG. Some of these mechanics are expected in other games, so much in fact many of the same mechanics are used in these games. For example. White, Green, Blue, Purple, Orange/Yellow to describe quality of gear. This is almost universally used, because its become accepted.
When queuing up for a random dungeon with a random group of people, there is an assumption made (rightfully so) that the tank is a tank, the DPS are DPS and the healer is a healer. Other mmorpgs make sure this happens, ESO does not.
I am fully aware of why players end up with fake tanks and alluded to that in my post you quoted.
Other games have more specific definitions of what a tank is. As such there are some controls. Controls that are not possible, or at the very least extremely ineffective. Realizing this there is no real solution other than to redesign character builds to be very restrictive. The "solutions" I have seen in the various threads are either not workable or ineffective to the point they are pointless. The only real solution is the easy one of forming one's own group.
The skeevaton phase proves that it is possible to alter available skills on the fly. That means that it is very much possible to enforce only certain skills for tanks and healers on entering the dungeon through dungeon finder.
How does the skeevaton phase force a player to taunt? Yes it can force them into a different skill set and make them figure out what each skill does (not a great idea to have to read tooltips in the middle of a fight) or play a role they do not play. Even then it does not force them to taunt.
Will the skeevaton phase idea also make DDs do good damage or pay attention to mechanics so they do not die? That is the real issue as to why real tanks avoid the GF.
I say this as one who has healed random groups and out DPSed the group while healing. I thought that was sad. With my tank, I will not waste my time in such a manner and that is the real problem the GF faces.
Bad tanks are not fake tanks, bad healers are not fake healers, bad damage dealers are not fake damage dealers. Fake roles are those who don't even have and don't use skills (tools) that are part of their role. You can't enforce somebody to be good at any role, but you can enforce somebody to use skills necessary for that role by blocking skills of other roles. If the only thing as a tank you can do is to taunt, you will taunt and thus do the bare minimum.
Fakes are anyone not doing their role.
Tanks should be doing damage, as should healers. Dps should be able to swap into or always carry a self heal.
I'm not necessarily opposed to forcing a taunt onto the bar of anyone who queues tank, but locking tanks out of damage skills is absurd
Fake roles are those who don't try to do their role, not those who are doing it bad. A tank without taunt, a healer without heal, a damage dealer without damaging skill. Everyone else are not fake.
It is absurd for those who don't want to solve the problem. On the other hand, it is workable and effective.
No. It's anyone who completely fails to do their role. You can be a fake without being a fraud. Fake doesn't require deception (although it's usually the case.)
This is wrong. If some player is doing an arena and fails to do it, he is not fake arena runner, he is simply not competent (yet). The same applies to all dungeon or trial roles, to housing, to fashion, to crafting.
Failing to do it, and failing to be capable of doing it are two different things. If someone has enough damage to pass a bottom of the barrel dps check, but keeps failing because they are bad at the mechanics. That is someone who is merely incompetent.
A person who has 40k HP and 2k DPS, is a tank without a taunt. And no amount of getting better at the mechanics will allow them to perform their role adequately. They need to make actual changes to their build, same as a fake tank needs to slot a taunt and cannot possibly maintain aggro without one. They are fundamentally not fulfilling the basic requirements of the role.
Being incompetent and being incapable is not only about mechanics. It is about a build as well. An arena runner with the wrong build is still not fake arena runner. A person with 40k health and 2k dps is not a tank, just a fat damage dealer. He may need to change his build, but he doesn't need to change his activity (dealing damage). This is extremely important that his activity remains the same.
A dps dealing <10k dps is fake/incompetent/incapable or whatever, it doesn’t matter.
Just leave and come back later. Pick some flowers during the 15min cooldown.
Problem solved.
It does matter. It is a matter of right terminology and right approaches. Solving the problem of fake roles has nothing to do with solving the problem of bad roles.Edited by Olauron on December 3, 2021 7:03PMThe Three Storm Sharks, episode 8 released on january the 8th.
One mer to rule them all,
one mer to find them,
One mer to bring them all
and in the darkness bind them.3 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Taunting instead of dealing damage is a change of activity. Dealing more damage instead of dealing less damage is not a change of activity.
No. It's not. There is a significant difference in how a proper tank is built, the content it can do, and the other skills it uses to supplement it's taunting and a DPS with a taunt.
A dps with a taunt will slot one to hold the boss semi-still, but they will not be debuffing the boss. They will no be CC'ing adds. They may need to move the boss all over the place rather than holding it still due to their survivability being drastically lower to that of a proper tank.
It requires more than a single skill to make a proper tank. There is a big difference in focus that makes the difference in activities.Edited by spartaxoxo on December 3, 2021 7:21PM0 -
Olauron✭✭✭✭✭
✭spartaxoxo wrote: »Taunting instead of dealing damage is a change of activity. Dealing more damage instead of dealing less damage is not a change of activity.
No. It's not. There is a significant difference in how a proper tank is built, the content it can do, and the other skills it uses to supplement it's taunting and a DPS with a taunt.
A dps with a taunt will slot one to hold the boss semi-still, but they will not be debuffing the boss. They will no be CC'ing adds. They may need to move the boss all over the place rather than holding it still due to their survivability being drastically lower to that of a proper tank.
It requires more than a single skill to make a proper tank.
That changes nothing. Replace "taunt" with "taunt + debuff + CC", there is no reason to write it all every time. The point is there is no damage dealing in this list, and once damage dealing is there and is a major part (at the expense of "...+...+..."), it is a change of activity and it is a fake role if current role is not DD.The Three Storm Sharks, episode 8 released on january the 8th.
One mer to rule them all,
one mer to find them,
One mer to bring them all
and in the darkness bind them.1 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »Taunting instead of dealing damage is a change of activity. Dealing more damage instead of dealing less damage is not a change of activity.
No. It's not. There is a significant difference in how a proper tank is built, the content it can do, and the other skills it uses to supplement it's taunting and a DPS with a taunt.
A dps with a taunt will slot one to hold the boss semi-still, but they will not be debuffing the boss. They will no be CC'ing adds. They may need to move the boss all over the place rather than holding it still due to their survivability being drastically lower to that of a proper tank.
It requires more than a single skill to make a proper tank.
That changes nothing. Replace "taunt" with "taunt + debuff + CC", there is no reason to write it all every time. The point is there is no damage dealing in this list, and once damage dealing is there and is a major part (at the expense of "...+...+..."), it is a change of activity and it is a fake role if current role is not DD.
Yes, exactly. Therefore a DPS who's primary focus is damage dealing and it's not just a major part but their primary focus, then they are a DPS. Even if they slot a taunt. A DPS that slots a taunt to line jump but changes nothing else about their focus, skills, or build is just a DPS being courteous of others and bringing the one skill they need to ensure they don't upset their teammates when they queue as tank.Edited by spartaxoxo on December 3, 2021 7:29PM0 -
Olauron✭✭✭✭✭
✭spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »Taunting instead of dealing damage is a change of activity. Dealing more damage instead of dealing less damage is not a change of activity.
No. It's not. There is a significant difference in how a proper tank is built, the content it can do, and the other skills it uses to supplement it's taunting and a DPS with a taunt.
A dps with a taunt will slot one to hold the boss semi-still, but they will not be debuffing the boss. They will no be CC'ing adds. They may need to move the boss all over the place rather than holding it still due to their survivability being drastically lower to that of a proper tank.
It requires more than a single skill to make a proper tank.
That changes nothing. Replace "taunt" with "taunt + debuff + CC", there is no reason to write it all every time. The point is there is no damage dealing in this list, and once damage dealing is there and is a major part (at the expense of "...+...+..."), it is a change of activity and it is a fake role if current role is not DD.
Yes, exactly. Therefore a DPS who's primary focus is damage dealing and it's not just a major part but their primary focus, then they are a DPS. Even if they slot a taunt. A DPS that slots a taunt to line jump but changes nothing else about their focus, skills, or build is just a DPS being courteous of others and bringing the one skill they need to ensure they don't upset their teammates when they queue as tank.
A damage dealer who slots a taunt and almost not uses it is still a damage dealer and a fake tank, if tank is his selected role. A damage dealer who uses taunt a lot (and-or other tank skills) at the expense of damage dealing is a tank (a bad tank if he is doing it without all necessary skills) and a fake damage dealer, if it is his selected role.The Three Storm Sharks, episode 8 released on january the 8th.
One mer to rule them all,
one mer to find them,
One mer to bring them all
and in the darkness bind them.1 -
seldomseenkd✭✭✭The term "fake" does far too much heavy lifting imo. It's lack of precision reduces its utility in a good faith debate and can be too easily employed as a pejorative.
There is a marked difference between an aggressive tank, a dps with taunts slotted, and an entirely useless player who's queued as a tank solely to skip the queue and then be carried by the rest of the group without contributing much of anything. If they all fall under the one umbrella term "fake" then the field is ripe for equivocation and is often why debates on the subject end up with people getting annoyed and talking past each other. Edit: Or devolve into pointless arguments about word itself.Edited by seldomseenkd on December 11, 2021 9:40AM2 -
Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »Taunting instead of dealing damage is a change of activity. Dealing more damage instead of dealing less damage is not a change of activity.
No. It's not. There is a significant difference in how a proper tank is built, the content it can do, and the other skills it uses to supplement it's taunting and a DPS with a taunt.
A dps with a taunt will slot one to hold the boss semi-still, but they will not be debuffing the boss. They will no be CC'ing adds. They may need to move the boss all over the place rather than holding it still due to their survivability being drastically lower to that of a proper tank.
It requires more than a single skill to make a proper tank.
That changes nothing. Replace "taunt" with "taunt + debuff + CC", there is no reason to write it all every time. The point is there is no damage dealing in this list, and once damage dealing is there and is a major part (at the expense of "...+...+..."), it is a change of activity and it is a fake role if current role is not DD.
Yes, exactly. Therefore a DPS who's primary focus is damage dealing and it's not just a major part but their primary focus, then they are a DPS. Even if they slot a taunt. A DPS that slots a taunt to line jump but changes nothing else about their focus, skills, or build is just a DPS being courteous of others and bringing the one skill they need to ensure they don't upset their teammates when they queue as tank.
I just want to inject my opinion that the role of the tank is to control the boss. Anyone who can successfully fill that role is a tank. Additional duties can get added, like debuffing the boss, but if they lose control of the boss while futzing around with debuffs, then they need to concentrate on control.
This means that, in my opinion, if a "DPS" can control the boss and maintain it, then they can tank the boss.
1 -
Franchise408✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »
Buyers remorse is when someone makes a purchase and they dont feel good about it. That is different than making a purchase in good faith only to find out the purchase is trash/junk/broken/badly designed etc and then feel upset with the purchase.
EDIT: Most of the time, buyers remorse comes from being "sold" an item, something you were not really expecting to purchase, but did so due to some sales hype mechanic through advertising or a sales person.Factors that affect buyer's remorse may include: resources invested, the involvement of the purchaser, whether the purchase is compatible with the purchaser's goals, feelings encountered post-purchase that include regret.
If you purchase something and then realize it may conflict with personal goals, it's buyer's remorse.
The product isn't faulty. It is giving you exactly what it says will, access to the dungeons.
It's not about conflicting with personal goals, its about the realization that what you purchased is not as advertised, or broken.
The product is faulty, because its not mentioned anywhere that those dungeons are going to be a royal pain with fake tanks and people who are not ready for the content.
As I said previously, people make the purchase in good faith. The mindset of a good faith purchase does not lead to buyers remorse unless the product if faulty. You can't know if a product is faulty until you use it. This is why lemon laws exist.
It is easy to avoid getting a fake tank so there is no faulty advertising. I do most dungeons without a fake tank. Occasionally, not often, I do choose to queue solo and understand there is a risk of getting lesser skilled players or fake tanks. However, I rarely choose to be that adventurous. I prefer to know I will have a good group and the run will go well. Again, a choice but one each of us makes for ourselves.
Using the in game supplied dungeon finder to queue for a dungeon often has other players queuing as "fake tanks" making the dungeon run less fun for the myriad of reasons people have listed.
Other MMORPGs do not have the problem of fake tanks because the design of the game ensures the people selecting their roles at least meet a gear and skill check before they can queue as a tank or healer, or even DPS. This is not the case in ESO. There is an assumption, which is established by long standing, long term MMORPG's, some of which are the most popular in history who literally wrote the rules for what it means to be an MMORPG. Some of these mechanics are expected in other games, so much in fact many of the same mechanics are used in these games. For example. White, Green, Blue, Purple, Orange/Yellow to describe quality of gear. This is almost universally used, because its become accepted.
When queuing up for a random dungeon with a random group of people, there is an assumption made (rightfully so) that the tank is a tank, the DPS are DPS and the healer is a healer. Other mmorpgs make sure this happens, ESO does not.
I am fully aware of why players end up with fake tanks and alluded to that in my post you quoted.
Other games have more specific definitions of what a tank is. As such there are some controls. Controls that are not possible, or at the very least extremely ineffective. Realizing this there is no real solution other than to redesign character builds to be very restrictive. The "solutions" I have seen in the various threads are either not workable or ineffective to the point they are pointless. The only real solution is the easy one of forming one's own group.
The skeevaton phase proves that it is possible to alter available skills on the fly. That means that it is very much possible to enforce only certain skills for tanks and healers on entering the dungeon through dungeon finder.
I say this as a proper tank:
I will leave this game if they ever impose specific skills and gears on me in order to do content.1 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »Taunting instead of dealing damage is a change of activity. Dealing more damage instead of dealing less damage is not a change of activity.
No. It's not. There is a significant difference in how a proper tank is built, the content it can do, and the other skills it uses to supplement it's taunting and a DPS with a taunt.
A dps with a taunt will slot one to hold the boss semi-still, but they will not be debuffing the boss. They will no be CC'ing adds. They may need to move the boss all over the place rather than holding it still due to their survivability being drastically lower to that of a proper tank.
It requires more than a single skill to make a proper tank.
That changes nothing. Replace "taunt" with "taunt + debuff + CC", there is no reason to write it all every time. The point is there is no damage dealing in this list, and once damage dealing is there and is a major part (at the expense of "...+...+..."), it is a change of activity and it is a fake role if current role is not DD.
Yes, exactly. Therefore a DPS who's primary focus is damage dealing and it's not just a major part but their primary focus, then they are a DPS. Even if they slot a taunt. A DPS that slots a taunt to line jump but changes nothing else about their focus, skills, or build is just a DPS being courteous of others and bringing the one skill they need to ensure they don't upset their teammates when they queue as tank.
I just want to inject my opinion that the role of the tank is to control the boss. Anyone who can successfully fill that role is a tank. Additional duties can get added, like debuffing the boss, but if they lose control of the boss while futzing around with debuffs, then they need to concentrate on control.
This means that, in my opinion, if a "DPS" can control the boss and maintain it, then they can tank the boss.
All the classes can do parts of every other's class role. The difference is in what they are focused on doing, how they are built, etc. IMO
A tank that is mostly focused on controlling the boss but pops a barrier on a tough fight isn't a healer.
A healer that tosses down wall of elements for some extra damage isn't a DPS.
A DPS that slots a taunt so they can line jump, but maintains the vast majority of their focus on doing as much as they can isn't a tank.
Any role can perform the basic functions of another role. But the way we build our characters and the things we focus on achieving in the dungeons are different.
edit:
A healer primarily builds with buffing/debuffing and keeping people alive. They will have multiple heals on their bar, maybe some debuffs, and their gear will be focused on enhancing those things rather than enhancing their damage. This is why people who switch it up when damage is lacking often describe themselves as healer-dps hybrid vs pure healer.
A tank primarily builds for survival, enemy movement control, and buffs/debuffs. They will have not only a taunt on their bar, but skills that are intended to help them survive, debuff enemies (or buff players), and probably some CC in the mix as well. Their primary focus in the dungeon is to ensure that take the damage that will kill the rest of their team. The gear they choose is intended to enhance these aspects.
A DPS primarily builds with maximizing their damage output in mind. While they may have something like a self-heal or CC, their primary focus is loading up on damage skills that compliment their preferred method of dealing damage and doing as much as damage as they can so as to kill things as quickly as they are able. The gear they choose is to enhance their damage.
If you don't build for the role that you're queueing for and the end result is that you're unable to do even the bare minimum needed of you in a dungeon regardless of how well you execute the dungeon-specific mechanics, then I feel that is a fake role. Because you didn't build for the role, regardless if it was intentional or not.Edited by spartaxoxo on December 3, 2021 8:30PM0 -
Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »Taunting instead of dealing damage is a change of activity. Dealing more damage instead of dealing less damage is not a change of activity.
No. It's not. There is a significant difference in how a proper tank is built, the content it can do, and the other skills it uses to supplement it's taunting and a DPS with a taunt.
A dps with a taunt will slot one to hold the boss semi-still, but they will not be debuffing the boss. They will no be CC'ing adds. They may need to move the boss all over the place rather than holding it still due to their survivability being drastically lower to that of a proper tank.
It requires more than a single skill to make a proper tank.
That changes nothing. Replace "taunt" with "taunt + debuff + CC", there is no reason to write it all every time. The point is there is no damage dealing in this list, and once damage dealing is there and is a major part (at the expense of "...+...+..."), it is a change of activity and it is a fake role if current role is not DD.
Yes, exactly. Therefore a DPS who's primary focus is damage dealing and it's not just a major part but their primary focus, then they are a DPS. Even if they slot a taunt. A DPS that slots a taunt to line jump but changes nothing else about their focus, skills, or build is just a DPS being courteous of others and bringing the one skill they need to ensure they don't upset their teammates when they queue as tank.
I just want to inject my opinion that the role of the tank is to control the boss. Anyone who can successfully fill that role is a tank. Additional duties can get added, like debuffing the boss, but if they lose control of the boss while futzing around with debuffs, then they need to concentrate on control.
This means that, in my opinion, if a "DPS" can control the boss and maintain it, then they can tank the boss.
All the classes can do parts of every other's class role. The difference is in what they are focused on doing, how they are built, etc.
A tank that is mostly focused on controlling the boss but pops a barrier on a tough fight isn't a healer.
A healer that tosses down wall of elements for some extra damage isn't a DPS.
A DPS that slots a taunt so they can line jump, but maintains the vast majority of their focus on doing as much as they can isn't a tank.
Any role can perform the basic functions of another role. But the way we build our characters and the things we focus on achieving in the dungeons are different.
Likewise, characters are not limited by the game to always have a single active role.0 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »Taunting instead of dealing damage is a change of activity. Dealing more damage instead of dealing less damage is not a change of activity.
No. It's not. There is a significant difference in how a proper tank is built, the content it can do, and the other skills it uses to supplement it's taunting and a DPS with a taunt.
A dps with a taunt will slot one to hold the boss semi-still, but they will not be debuffing the boss. They will no be CC'ing adds. They may need to move the boss all over the place rather than holding it still due to their survivability being drastically lower to that of a proper tank.
It requires more than a single skill to make a proper tank.
That changes nothing. Replace "taunt" with "taunt + debuff + CC", there is no reason to write it all every time. The point is there is no damage dealing in this list, and once damage dealing is there and is a major part (at the expense of "...+...+..."), it is a change of activity and it is a fake role if current role is not DD.
Yes, exactly. Therefore a DPS who's primary focus is damage dealing and it's not just a major part but their primary focus, then they are a DPS. Even if they slot a taunt. A DPS that slots a taunt to line jump but changes nothing else about their focus, skills, or build is just a DPS being courteous of others and bringing the one skill they need to ensure they don't upset their teammates when they queue as tank.
I just want to inject my opinion that the role of the tank is to control the boss. Anyone who can successfully fill that role is a tank. Additional duties can get added, like debuffing the boss, but if they lose control of the boss while futzing around with debuffs, then they need to concentrate on control.
This means that, in my opinion, if a "DPS" can control the boss and maintain it, then they can tank the boss.
All the classes can do parts of every other's class role. The difference is in what they are focused on doing, how they are built, etc.
A tank that is mostly focused on controlling the boss but pops a barrier on a tough fight isn't a healer.
A healer that tosses down wall of elements for some extra damage isn't a DPS.
A DPS that slots a taunt so they can line jump, but maintains the vast majority of their focus on doing as much as they can isn't a tank.
Any role can perform the basic functions of another role. But the way we build our characters and the things we focus on achieving in the dungeons are different.
Likewise, characters are not limited by the game to always have a single active role.
Sure, but I don't think we'd have a problem saying that a tank that popped barrier isn't a healer.
I think the only reason people have a problem with the same logic being applied to DPS is because there are a lot of people being intentionally deceptive when it comes to fake tanking and fake healing. To get the maximum amount of damage requires very unintuitive gameplay and a ton of practice, so there's this huge barrier to DPS getting to even mid-level competency.
So a lot of people don't feel it's fair or reasonable to lump in these DPS players who are putting in an effort with the ones who know full well that they aren't fulfilling their role, and don't care how it effects others. Those guys are dishonest, while most fake DPS are not.
But I think doing that just muddies the waters for understanding how to build for our roles, understanding things like DPS checks, and leads to a lot of frustration from people who spend a lot of time building incorrectly. It also obscures the very real problem that is happening in Vet Queue. Although that problem I think has gotten better in recent times. I think this because this discussion usually comes up when Tanks and Healers are attempting to articulate the problems they have in Vet queues and try to discuss solutions, and instead of the conversation focusing on the damage the fake dps does to vet queues and how we can fix that in a way that's fair to everyone, it usually becomes a discussion on the semantics of the word fake.
That's not happening in this thread, but it's something I have seen time and time again.Edited by spartaxoxo on December 3, 2021 8:42PM0 -
Olauron✭✭✭✭✭
✭Franchise408 wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »
Buyers remorse is when someone makes a purchase and they dont feel good about it. That is different than making a purchase in good faith only to find out the purchase is trash/junk/broken/badly designed etc and then feel upset with the purchase.
EDIT: Most of the time, buyers remorse comes from being "sold" an item, something you were not really expecting to purchase, but did so due to some sales hype mechanic through advertising or a sales person.Factors that affect buyer's remorse may include: resources invested, the involvement of the purchaser, whether the purchase is compatible with the purchaser's goals, feelings encountered post-purchase that include regret.
If you purchase something and then realize it may conflict with personal goals, it's buyer's remorse.
The product isn't faulty. It is giving you exactly what it says will, access to the dungeons.
It's not about conflicting with personal goals, its about the realization that what you purchased is not as advertised, or broken.
The product is faulty, because its not mentioned anywhere that those dungeons are going to be a royal pain with fake tanks and people who are not ready for the content.
As I said previously, people make the purchase in good faith. The mindset of a good faith purchase does not lead to buyers remorse unless the product if faulty. You can't know if a product is faulty until you use it. This is why lemon laws exist.
It is easy to avoid getting a fake tank so there is no faulty advertising. I do most dungeons without a fake tank. Occasionally, not often, I do choose to queue solo and understand there is a risk of getting lesser skilled players or fake tanks. However, I rarely choose to be that adventurous. I prefer to know I will have a good group and the run will go well. Again, a choice but one each of us makes for ourselves.
Using the in game supplied dungeon finder to queue for a dungeon often has other players queuing as "fake tanks" making the dungeon run less fun for the myriad of reasons people have listed.
Other MMORPGs do not have the problem of fake tanks because the design of the game ensures the people selecting their roles at least meet a gear and skill check before they can queue as a tank or healer, or even DPS. This is not the case in ESO. There is an assumption, which is established by long standing, long term MMORPG's, some of which are the most popular in history who literally wrote the rules for what it means to be an MMORPG. Some of these mechanics are expected in other games, so much in fact many of the same mechanics are used in these games. For example. White, Green, Blue, Purple, Orange/Yellow to describe quality of gear. This is almost universally used, because its become accepted.
When queuing up for a random dungeon with a random group of people, there is an assumption made (rightfully so) that the tank is a tank, the DPS are DPS and the healer is a healer. Other mmorpgs make sure this happens, ESO does not.
I am fully aware of why players end up with fake tanks and alluded to that in my post you quoted.
Other games have more specific definitions of what a tank is. As such there are some controls. Controls that are not possible, or at the very least extremely ineffective. Realizing this there is no real solution other than to redesign character builds to be very restrictive. The "solutions" I have seen in the various threads are either not workable or ineffective to the point they are pointless. The only real solution is the easy one of forming one's own group.
The skeevaton phase proves that it is possible to alter available skills on the fly. That means that it is very much possible to enforce only certain skills for tanks and healers on entering the dungeon through dungeon finder.
I say this as a proper tank:
I will leave this game if they ever impose specific skills and gears on me in order to do content.
"There can be no triumph without loss. No victory without suffering. No freedom without sacrifice."
Any solution has its consequence. No solution has its consequence too. There are always consequences, the only question is where they are the most appropriate.The Three Storm Sharks, episode 8 released on january the 8th.
One mer to rule them all,
one mer to find them,
One mer to bring them all
and in the darkness bind them.1 -
Nogawd✭✭✭✭✭If they impose skills for tanks, then they must impose DPS checks.
Bad DPS should not continue to get a pass in this game. No, not talking about just beginners either.1 -
jaws343✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »Taunting instead of dealing damage is a change of activity. Dealing more damage instead of dealing less damage is not a change of activity.
No. It's not. There is a significant difference in how a proper tank is built, the content it can do, and the other skills it uses to supplement it's taunting and a DPS with a taunt.
A dps with a taunt will slot one to hold the boss semi-still, but they will not be debuffing the boss. They will no be CC'ing adds. They may need to move the boss all over the place rather than holding it still due to their survivability being drastically lower to that of a proper tank.
It requires more than a single skill to make a proper tank.
That changes nothing. Replace "taunt" with "taunt + debuff + CC", there is no reason to write it all every time. The point is there is no damage dealing in this list, and once damage dealing is there and is a major part (at the expense of "...+...+..."), it is a change of activity and it is a fake role if current role is not DD.
Yes, exactly. Therefore a DPS who's primary focus is damage dealing and it's not just a major part but their primary focus, then they are a DPS. Even if they slot a taunt. A DPS that slots a taunt to line jump but changes nothing else about their focus, skills, or build is just a DPS being courteous of others and bringing the one skill they need to ensure they don't upset their teammates when they queue as tank.
I just want to inject my opinion that the role of the tank is to control the boss. Anyone who can successfully fill that role is a tank. Additional duties can get added, like debuffing the boss, but if they lose control of the boss while futzing around with debuffs, then they need to concentrate on control.
This means that, in my opinion, if a "DPS" can control the boss and maintain it, then they can tank the boss.
All the classes can do parts of every other's class role. The difference is in what they are focused on doing, how they are built, etc.
A tank that is mostly focused on controlling the boss but pops a barrier on a tough fight isn't a healer.
A healer that tosses down wall of elements for some extra damage isn't a DPS.
A DPS that slots a taunt so they can line jump, but maintains the vast majority of their focus on doing as much as they can isn't a tank.
Any role can perform the basic functions of another role. But the way we build our characters and the things we focus on achieving in the dungeons are different.
Likewise, characters are not limited by the game to always have a single active role.
Sure, but I don't think we'd have a problem saying that a tank that popped barrier isn't a healer.
I think the only reason people have a problem with the same logic being applied to DPS is because there are a lot of people being intentionally deceptive when it comes to fake tanking and fake healing. To get the maximum amount of damage requires very unintuitive gameplay and a ton of practice, so there's this huge barrier to DPS getting to even mid-level competency.
So a lot of people don't feel it's fair or reasonable to lump in these DPS players who are putting in an effort with the ones who know full well that they aren't fulfilling their role, and don't care how it effects others. Those guys are dishonest, while most fake DPS are not.
But I think doing that just muddies the waters for understanding how to build for our roles, understanding things like DPS checks, and leads to a lot of frustration from people who spend a lot of time building incorrectly. It also obscures the very real problem that is happening in Vet Queue. Although that problem I think has gotten better in recent times. I think this because this discussion usually comes up when Tanks and Healers are attempting to articulate the problems they have in Vet queues and try to discuss solutions, and instead of the conversation focusing on the damage the fake dps does to vet queues and how we can fix that in a way that's fair to everyone, it usually becomes a discussion on the semantics of the word fake.
That's not happening in this thread, but it's something I have seen time and time again.
The problem I have with the Fake discussion is that the people using the term to actually call out poor dungeon etiquette, mainly DPS queuing as tanks, are solely using the term Fake to describe people who are lying about the role they are queuing for and intentionally doing another role.
A tank, DPS, or healer who are just bad at their role are not Fake by that definition. They are bad. The DPS who queue as tanks to skip the queue are the only ones who keep trying to call out players who are just bad at their chosen role to deflect the conversation away from their horrid behavior.
It's really simple:
Fake - Queues for a role they have no intention of performing, and proceeds to not perform the role they queued for.
Bad - Queues for a role they intend to perform, but are really bad at it.
There is no need to call bad players fake. They are trying, or at least making an effort. They just need to learn how to do their role better. It is extremely important to distinguish between these two groups of players, and calling them all fake is just doing a disservice. Bad players at their roles can at least get better. Players who are Faking their roles will not get better and are just a flat out problem.3 -
jaws343✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »
Buyers remorse is when someone makes a purchase and they dont feel good about it. That is different than making a purchase in good faith only to find out the purchase is trash/junk/broken/badly designed etc and then feel upset with the purchase.
EDIT: Most of the time, buyers remorse comes from being "sold" an item, something you were not really expecting to purchase, but did so due to some sales hype mechanic through advertising or a sales person.Factors that affect buyer's remorse may include: resources invested, the involvement of the purchaser, whether the purchase is compatible with the purchaser's goals, feelings encountered post-purchase that include regret.
If you purchase something and then realize it may conflict with personal goals, it's buyer's remorse.
The product isn't faulty. It is giving you exactly what it says will, access to the dungeons.
It's not about conflicting with personal goals, its about the realization that what you purchased is not as advertised, or broken.
The product is faulty, because its not mentioned anywhere that those dungeons are going to be a royal pain with fake tanks and people who are not ready for the content.
As I said previously, people make the purchase in good faith. The mindset of a good faith purchase does not lead to buyers remorse unless the product if faulty. You can't know if a product is faulty until you use it. This is why lemon laws exist.
It is easy to avoid getting a fake tank so there is no faulty advertising. I do most dungeons without a fake tank. Occasionally, not often, I do choose to queue solo and understand there is a risk of getting lesser skilled players or fake tanks. However, I rarely choose to be that adventurous. I prefer to know I will have a good group and the run will go well. Again, a choice but one each of us makes for ourselves.
Using the in game supplied dungeon finder to queue for a dungeon often has other players queuing as "fake tanks" making the dungeon run less fun for the myriad of reasons people have listed.
Other MMORPGs do not have the problem of fake tanks because the design of the game ensures the people selecting their roles at least meet a gear and skill check before they can queue as a tank or healer, or even DPS. This is not the case in ESO. There is an assumption, which is established by long standing, long term MMORPG's, some of which are the most popular in history who literally wrote the rules for what it means to be an MMORPG. Some of these mechanics are expected in other games, so much in fact many of the same mechanics are used in these games. For example. White, Green, Blue, Purple, Orange/Yellow to describe quality of gear. This is almost universally used, because its become accepted.
When queuing up for a random dungeon with a random group of people, there is an assumption made (rightfully so) that the tank is a tank, the DPS are DPS and the healer is a healer. Other mmorpgs make sure this happens, ESO does not.
I am fully aware of why players end up with fake tanks and alluded to that in my post you quoted.
Other games have more specific definitions of what a tank is. As such there are some controls. Controls that are not possible, or at the very least extremely ineffective. Realizing this there is no real solution other than to redesign character builds to be very restrictive. The "solutions" I have seen in the various threads are either not workable or ineffective to the point they are pointless. The only real solution is the easy one of forming one's own group.
The skeevaton phase proves that it is possible to alter available skills on the fly. That means that it is very much possible to enforce only certain skills for tanks and healers on entering the dungeon through dungeon finder.
How does the skeevaton phase force a player to taunt? Yes it can force them into a different skill set and make them figure out what each skill does (not a great idea to have to read tooltips in the middle of a fight) or play a role they do not play. Even then it does not force them to taunt.
Will the skeevaton phase idea also make DDs do good damage or pay attention to mechanics so they do not die? That is the real issue as to why real tanks avoid the GF.
I say this as one who has healed random groups and out DPSed the group while healing. I thought that was sad. With my tank, I will not waste my time in such a manner and that is the real problem the GF faces.
Bad tanks are not fake tanks, bad healers are not fake healers, bad damage dealers are not fake damage dealers. Fake roles are those who don't even have and don't use skills (tools) that are part of their role. You can't enforce somebody to be good at any role, but you can enforce somebody to use skills necessary for that role by blocking skills of other roles. If the only thing as a tank you can do is to taunt, you will taunt and thus do the bare minimum.
Fakes are anyone not doing their role.
Tanks should be doing damage, as should healers. Dps should be able to swap into or always carry a self heal.
I'm not necessarily opposed to forcing a taunt onto the bar of anyone who queues tank, but locking tanks out of damage skills is absurd
Fake roles are those who don't try to do their role, not those who are doing it bad. A tank without taunt, a healer without heal, a damage dealer without damaging skill. Everyone else are not fake.
It is absurd for those who don't want to solve the problem. On the other hand, it is workable and effective.
No. It's anyone who completely fails to do their role. You can be a fake without being a fraud. Fake doesn't require deception (although it's usually the case.)
This is wrong. If some player is doing an arena and fails to do it, he is not fake arena runner, he is simply not competent (yet). The same applies to all dungeon or trial roles, to housing, to fashion, to crafting.
Failing to do it, and failing to be capable of doing it are two different things. If someone has enough damage to pass a bottom of the barrel dps check, but keeps failing because they are bad at the mechanics. That is someone who is merely incompetent.
A person who has 40k HP and 2k DPS, is a tank without a taunt. And no amount of getting better at the mechanics will allow them to perform their role adequately. They need to make actual changes to their build, same as a fake tank needs to slot a taunt and cannot possibly maintain aggro without one. They are fundamentally not fulfilling the basic requirements of the role.
It has always been the case for this game that "Fake" is intended to mean a player who is misrepresenting their role while intentionally playing another role. A player is a fake tank because they are queuing as a tank but entirely intending to play the dungeon as a DPS.
A player who has 40K health and 2K DPS is not a fake DPS, unless they are sitting there taunting the boss and performing the actual role of a tank.
Are they extremely bad at their role, absolutely. Are they intending to deceive players by the role they chose to queue as, no.
That has always been what people are referring to as Fake in this game. Being incompetent, or even uninformed about the expectations of your role is not Fake.
Many, many people use the term "Fake dps" to describe such dps, especially tanks citing them as a reason why they don't queue for vet dungeons. I appreciate there is a difference in intent, but it doesn't change that all the fake roles cause issues and that fake is a perfectly adequate term to describe it. There has definitely always been people who take issue with people who call those DPS fake because they think that they aren't deceptive should be acknowledged, but not everyone shares that POV. And the most objective source on the matter, the definition of fake itself, does not mandate deception.
I mean, that is objectively false. The definition of Fake is:
Not genuine; counterfeit
Counterfeit:
made in exact imitation of something valuable or important with the intention to deceive or defraud
Fake is done with the intention to deceive. Being bad is not an intention to deceive. Signing up as a tank when you don't plan on tanking at all is intent to deceive.2 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The DPS who queue as tanks to skip the queue are the only ones who keep trying to call out players who are just bad at their chosen role to deflect the conversation away from their horrid behavior.
That is absolutely untrue, and this disparaging of others just to obscure that the DPS isn't building for the role they selected is another reason that I don't support a definition that is inherently unequal in it's treatment of people who are not built to play the role they selected.
It's really simple
Fake = someone who is not built to perform the role they have chosen
Bad - someone who is built for the role they have chosen, they are just bad at it.
Someone who had 40k HP and 2k DPS made an intentional choice to build for survival over damage, their build revolves around allowing them to live through the things that would kill other party members. That is the build role of a tank, not a DPS. So if they join a vet dungeon and then their team dies because they failed a dps check, that's not just a bad dps. That's a fake dps who made the decision to build for survival instead of damage, which is their role.
Edited by spartaxoxo on December 3, 2021 9:14PM0 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »
Buyers remorse is when someone makes a purchase and they dont feel good about it. That is different than making a purchase in good faith only to find out the purchase is trash/junk/broken/badly designed etc and then feel upset with the purchase.
EDIT: Most of the time, buyers remorse comes from being "sold" an item, something you were not really expecting to purchase, but did so due to some sales hype mechanic through advertising or a sales person.Factors that affect buyer's remorse may include: resources invested, the involvement of the purchaser, whether the purchase is compatible with the purchaser's goals, feelings encountered post-purchase that include regret.
If you purchase something and then realize it may conflict with personal goals, it's buyer's remorse.
The product isn't faulty. It is giving you exactly what it says will, access to the dungeons.
It's not about conflicting with personal goals, its about the realization that what you purchased is not as advertised, or broken.
The product is faulty, because its not mentioned anywhere that those dungeons are going to be a royal pain with fake tanks and people who are not ready for the content.
As I said previously, people make the purchase in good faith. The mindset of a good faith purchase does not lead to buyers remorse unless the product if faulty. You can't know if a product is faulty until you use it. This is why lemon laws exist.
It is easy to avoid getting a fake tank so there is no faulty advertising. I do most dungeons without a fake tank. Occasionally, not often, I do choose to queue solo and understand there is a risk of getting lesser skilled players or fake tanks. However, I rarely choose to be that adventurous. I prefer to know I will have a good group and the run will go well. Again, a choice but one each of us makes for ourselves.
Using the in game supplied dungeon finder to queue for a dungeon often has other players queuing as "fake tanks" making the dungeon run less fun for the myriad of reasons people have listed.
Other MMORPGs do not have the problem of fake tanks because the design of the game ensures the people selecting their roles at least meet a gear and skill check before they can queue as a tank or healer, or even DPS. This is not the case in ESO. There is an assumption, which is established by long standing, long term MMORPG's, some of which are the most popular in history who literally wrote the rules for what it means to be an MMORPG. Some of these mechanics are expected in other games, so much in fact many of the same mechanics are used in these games. For example. White, Green, Blue, Purple, Orange/Yellow to describe quality of gear. This is almost universally used, because its become accepted.
When queuing up for a random dungeon with a random group of people, there is an assumption made (rightfully so) that the tank is a tank, the DPS are DPS and the healer is a healer. Other mmorpgs make sure this happens, ESO does not.
I am fully aware of why players end up with fake tanks and alluded to that in my post you quoted.
Other games have more specific definitions of what a tank is. As such there are some controls. Controls that are not possible, or at the very least extremely ineffective. Realizing this there is no real solution other than to redesign character builds to be very restrictive. The "solutions" I have seen in the various threads are either not workable or ineffective to the point they are pointless. The only real solution is the easy one of forming one's own group.
The skeevaton phase proves that it is possible to alter available skills on the fly. That means that it is very much possible to enforce only certain skills for tanks and healers on entering the dungeon through dungeon finder.
How does the skeevaton phase force a player to taunt? Yes it can force them into a different skill set and make them figure out what each skill does (not a great idea to have to read tooltips in the middle of a fight) or play a role they do not play. Even then it does not force them to taunt.
Will the skeevaton phase idea also make DDs do good damage or pay attention to mechanics so they do not die? That is the real issue as to why real tanks avoid the GF.
I say this as one who has healed random groups and out DPSed the group while healing. I thought that was sad. With my tank, I will not waste my time in such a manner and that is the real problem the GF faces.
Bad tanks are not fake tanks, bad healers are not fake healers, bad damage dealers are not fake damage dealers. Fake roles are those who don't even have and don't use skills (tools) that are part of their role. You can't enforce somebody to be good at any role, but you can enforce somebody to use skills necessary for that role by blocking skills of other roles. If the only thing as a tank you can do is to taunt, you will taunt and thus do the bare minimum.
Fakes are anyone not doing their role.
Tanks should be doing damage, as should healers. Dps should be able to swap into or always carry a self heal.
I'm not necessarily opposed to forcing a taunt onto the bar of anyone who queues tank, but locking tanks out of damage skills is absurd
Fake roles are those who don't try to do their role, not those who are doing it bad. A tank without taunt, a healer without heal, a damage dealer without damaging skill. Everyone else are not fake.
It is absurd for those who don't want to solve the problem. On the other hand, it is workable and effective.
No. It's anyone who completely fails to do their role. You can be a fake without being a fraud. Fake doesn't require deception (although it's usually the case.)
This is wrong. If some player is doing an arena and fails to do it, he is not fake arena runner, he is simply not competent (yet). The same applies to all dungeon or trial roles, to housing, to fashion, to crafting.
Failing to do it, and failing to be capable of doing it are two different things. If someone has enough damage to pass a bottom of the barrel dps check, but keeps failing because they are bad at the mechanics. That is someone who is merely incompetent.
A person who has 40k HP and 2k DPS, is a tank without a taunt. And no amount of getting better at the mechanics will allow them to perform their role adequately. They need to make actual changes to their build, same as a fake tank needs to slot a taunt and cannot possibly maintain aggro without one. They are fundamentally not fulfilling the basic requirements of the role.
It has always been the case for this game that "Fake" is intended to mean a player who is misrepresenting their role while intentionally playing another role. A player is a fake tank because they are queuing as a tank but entirely intending to play the dungeon as a DPS.
A player who has 40K health and 2K DPS is not a fake DPS, unless they are sitting there taunting the boss and performing the actual role of a tank.
Are they extremely bad at their role, absolutely. Are they intending to deceive players by the role they chose to queue as, no.
That has always been what people are referring to as Fake in this game. Being incompetent, or even uninformed about the expectations of your role is not Fake.
Many, many people use the term "Fake dps" to describe such dps, especially tanks citing them as a reason why they don't queue for vet dungeons. I appreciate there is a difference in intent, but it doesn't change that all the fake roles cause issues and that fake is a perfectly adequate term to describe it. There has definitely always been people who take issue with people who call those DPS fake because they think that they aren't deceptive should be acknowledged, but not everyone shares that POV. And the most objective source on the matter, the definition of fake itself, does not mandate deception.
I mean, that is objectively false. The definition of Fake is:
Not genuine; counterfeit
Counterfeit:
made in exact imitation of something valuable or important with the intention to deceive or defraud
Fake is done with the intention to deceive. Being bad is not an intention to deceive. Signing up as a tank when you don't plan on tanking at all is intent to deceive.
Yes, so it could be not genuine, as in merely not real. Or it could be counterfeit, as in intentionally designed to deceive.
Here's another definitionnot true, real, or genuine : COUNTERFEIT, SHAM
and anotherto conceal the defects of or make appear more attractive, interesting, valuable, etc., usually in order to deceive:
Usually, not always. It does not require deception. It usually is deceptive but not always.
Here's anothersomeone who is not what or who they claim to beEdited by spartaxoxo on December 3, 2021 9:20PM0