Finally proc and non-proc sets are balanced. Dont forget to nerf spriggans penetration before touch proc and so on.

@FrankonPC, I could be wrong as I don't have time to watch that video right now, but didn't you put a Caluurion build video out with the express aim of showing how strong it was, hoping it would catch on and get nerfed? Since then we've had Sloads, but Caluurion never rose to the level where it was considered sufficiently problematic. In fact it has flown under the radar, ZOS' radar at least, remarkably unchanged. I wonder why that is? Could it be, because it's quite well balanced on live?

FrankonPC wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

And there it is. You don't even notice it, do you? The unquestionable presupposition that proc sets are "free" damage. This is what makes you a purist and borderline elitist.

Presupposition would be the right word if I didn't have multiple clips on my channel of already running these proc sets. You used the wrong word once again in an attack that is wrong, once again. You notice that, right?

OK, I'll admit that I was unfairly questioning your integrity regarding your experience with proc sets and your preference for stat builds. At the same time, characterising proc sets as "free" is factually inaccurate. You can argue about what's free about them and what's not, but it is a grey area. It's used as such a cheap shot by everyone holding your position and in such a casual way, it's extremely irritating. I am also on the side of sabresandiego_ESO when it comes to fun. I think you can have fun with or without procs and whether next patch will be as problematic as Viper / Tremorscale is by no means obvious to me, even now.

ThePainGuy wrote: »

Some interesting points being made on this forum topic. I saw the streams (Else duel with @Madhatten512 and @sabresandiego_ESO).

Honestly in my opinion, the biggest wildcard in this proc-set vs max stat debate is Malacath's Band. Now i like proc sets and stat building sets. I love the diversity in building for pvp in ESO. Now Zos has certainly taken it even further with mythics that add another layer of gameplay and i admire they are willing to still push the envelope in this game. However, Zos has been inconsistent with some balancing and Malacath's Banding is one area.

Malacath's Banding allows us to increase our overall damage by 25% but at the cost that we can no longer do crit damage (the Kiss Curse that Zos loves to call it). However, Malacath allows bypassing of the kiss/curse effect if your build is solely based around proc-sets. Proc-sets used to crit in the past and then Zos changed it to where they can no longer crit. However, when malacath's band is combined with proc-sets; proc-sets are allowed to essentially do extra damage but bypass the curse effect because proc-sets do not crit to begin with.

Now lets look at what Zos has done recently.
1. Blood for blood (vamp ability) was essentially nerfed because some classes like nightblade could bypass the heath toggle costs (curse effect) with its great self healing. This was done during greymoor PTS
2. Thrassian Stranglers: (mythic item) nerfed twice (greymoor PTS and stonethorn PTS) because players were allowed to gain max stats and able to significantly ignore curse effects of the item
3. New Moon Acolyte (crafted item set): per Zos they reduced the 5 piece benefit to 401 down from 481 weapon/spell damage because players were able to essentially ignore the increased costs due to synergies

So in conclusion since proc-sets are able to have their base damage increased with essentially no curse since proc-sets cannot do crit damage; should malacath's band apply to proc-sets? If you compare it to max-stat builds that use malacath's band; your base damage is increased but your damage skills and abilities cannot no longer do crit damage. Doesn't that seem a bit unbalanced?

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Gilliam @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

I agree. I said the same thing recently, albeit less forcefully. Funny thing is, we probably all agree. Frank seems to prefer a global cooldown on procs, but I believe he suggested this option in one of his YouTube videos as well.

fred4 wrote: »

OK, I'll admit that I was unfairly questioning your integrity regarding your experience with proc sets and your preference for stat builds. At the same time, characterising proc sets as "free" is factually inaccurate. You can argue about what's free about them and what's not, but it is a grey area. It's used as such a cheap shot by everyone holding your position and in such a casual way, it's extremely irritating. I am also on the side of sabresandiego_ESO when it comes to fun. I think you can have fun with or without procs and whether next patch will be as problematic as Viper / Tremorscale is by no means obvious to me, even now.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildEditor?id=157224 .


Here's a full stat spec this patch on your class, balorgh, war maiden and necro. I intentionally build no recovery so that we have highly buffed tooltips, scaling the damage even higher for stat based builds.


Max Stat War maiden concealed: 14,361
Max Stat War Maiden Soul Harvest: 22971

A two hit combination with these two sets yields 37,332 tooltip damage. With full ultimate balorgh, the tooltip goes up to 24,574, with more pen. So roughly 39k ish damage with full balorgh

Here's substituting caluurions for war maiden, feel free to adjust it yourself and compare:
Caluurions Concealed: 12,938
Caluurions Soul harvest: 20,695

A two hit combo with everything else remaining the same yields a 33,633 tooltip damage. With balorgh at 500 ultimate, it goes up to 22k, so roughly 35k overall damage with this combination at 500 ultimate.

You lose roughly 4k damage on your overall tooltips switching this one set, but you gain 20k proc that is guaranteed to land with this combination every 10 seconds.

So between the two, with the same two hit combination, you have 37k damage(39k fully buffed) vs 55k...which as you know on a magicka nightblade with concealed weapon, caluurions hits almost every time when they're not cc immune. This is reliable burst. This is a difference of 34% in burst when you switch out the one set.

Now let's add my other sets I was running, Caluurions Overwhelming and Zaan:

Concealed tooltip: 12,128
Soul Harvest: 19,401

So 31k damage with a 20k tooltip caluurions that will land every 10 seconds = 51k. 51k vs 39k damage, or a % difference of 26% on your overall burst between these two abilities WITH the ability to still proc overwhelming and zaan, which is more damage.

Now you can absolutely say that 500 ultimate balorgh has more pen as well and will do more damage than what the tooltips show, which is 100% true! It's not going to offset 26% damage shown though. Balorgh at 500 ultimate will give you ~17%(11500 pen with 500 ult balorgh divided by 660) more damage with the full pen than what is showing, but it's still not more damage than just the caluurions proc. This is just taking into account caluurions and not overwhelming or zaan of course, which would be an even larger difference in overall damage done, when they proc.

So when people talk about how procs give "free" damage, it's because the utility of running multiple procs on the same spec is giving more damage than what a max stat build will give for doing the exact same thing.

Ajaks wrote: »

Hm... Every class has cleanse through the Purge ability and its morphs from the support skill-line so your argument is a bit shady.

I agree with what you wrote after this, but there's a reason you don't see many classes running purge, because it's ridiculously expensive right now and not a great option. On a breton magicka class in light armor, the cost of efficient purge is just under 5k. The other morph is just under 7k. Poison injection is under 3k for cost and crit rush is under 4k. So if a class wants to run efficient purge vs what I am running, as I said I'm more than happy to. You're better off wearing a set like curse eater or wyrd tree and getting the purge doing something else.

MincVinyl wrote: »

You really think any build can just slot purge and be able to sustain that?

I was just referring to his statement that some classes don't have purge, mate. Other than that - both FrankonPC and sabresandiego_ESO placed interesting claims and went out to prove them. This discussion was a pleasure to read and I thank them both for the provided evidence.

Rex-Umbra wrote: »

I use proc sets with effects that fit with my characters theme

that's exactly what should be happening.
builds and playstyle is in the eye of the beholder.

FrankonPC wrote: »

So when people talk about how procs give "free" damage, it's because the utility of running multiple procs on the same spec is giving more damage than what a max stat build will give for doing the exact same thing.

That's if and when the burst kills someone. If not, then you find the PvE balancing of those sets makes it even numbers, yet you lack the magicka / spell damage for better shields or heals you would otherwise have.

This is the actual build that I run: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=258302

As you can see it is highly compromised, because I like speed and I like perma-cloak sustain. Sometimes I don't feel like fighting, but I can watch what's going on. Yes, this is how you build to truly stay invisible and able to cast RAT every other cloak, without running your magicka down. I have fun whizzing around the place and striking where I can make a difference. Sometimes I zerg. Sometimes I duel or it's even numbers. Sometimes - rarely - I manage to 1vX people, not counting the complete pushovers.

I usually try to fight in melee range, because the danger is exciting and it creates the best burst. It's a very squishy build. I'd be much better off fighting from range, wouldn't I? Ganking with a heavy attack or Elemental Weapon / Master's flame staff and only going in for Soul Harvest later, if necessary. If you go over to the magblade theory crafting thread, about half the people there expressed the view, at one time or another, that melee magblade is suicide. It works for me, albeit with Caluurion. I neither think it's the most difficult magblade build, nor the easiest.

The next thing is, you're going to tell me I would be more successful, if I ran a stronger build like yours, albeit with realistic sustain? I would, then, also appreciate the problems with multiple proc sets or stronger proc sets or Malacath? Perhaps. But this is where I'm with sabresandiego_ESO. I created a build that I find fun. While Caluurion might be meta for melee magblade, I don't think that class is anywhere near meta, nor is my build within the class. Meta in the sense of "most effective" at killing people.

Does Caluurion carry my build? Let's say, yes, however I've had this playstyle since before Caluurion. I used to be a 2H / Resto magblade when Forward Momentum was the only means of snare removal. Caluurion was a godsend and, to a lesser degree, Zaan. It makes melee magblade viable, or at least the melee magblade ganker that deals upfront damage, like a stamblade. However, I continue to maintain that many stamblades are better at this than my build, be they melee gankers or snipers.

You're gonna be very smart now and tell me that when I say proc sets compromise builds, that's not true. It's me compromising my build for other reasons, then using a proc set to enable it. I agree, in my case that's true. Perhaps I've overlooked the extent to which that is true and that's colouring my perspective. At the same time you do make some compromises by wearing a proc set and, if you want to make the most of Caluurion, it also affects your playstyle.

Incidentally, I call myself a ganker, because that seems objective. Many people think that's boring. Some look down on it. I can understand how that would be, if you only ever seek out isolated, easy targets. I try to to push the envelope and stay in a brawl as long as I can. I used to run a lot of stamina sustain and even Eternal Hunt at one point. Now I've switched back to shields, a mythic and less stamina sustain. Why? Because it's fun. It's the playstyle I like, even if I'm not the most effective magblade I could be. I'm dangerous to some, but I've also been called "feeble" by a certain member of this forum, who knows me from in game.

From a personal point of view, dumping on Caluurion affects the viability of my build big time. I have no problem with some of your suggestions, such as allowing only one proc set or disallowing Malacath. Others, like reducing all proc damage in both CP and no CP are scary. Doesn't look like you're married to that, but just be mindful of the collateral damage of some of your ideas. They can kill niche builds, such as mine, not just the all proc cheese builds, if you want to call them that. All this uproar and what will ZOS do? They're not known for being subtle.

exiledtyrant wrote: »

I would hypothesize that there is more burst potential within the first few hits of a proc set than a stat based set which than either falls off altogether or equalizes at the 10 second mark.

This is actually a good way of looking at it. Proc sets work great when they outright kill someone. You don't want them so strong that that will happen, especially in the hands of a nightblade ganker. If they don't kill someone, though, then my particular build, at least, hits like a wet noodle. This effect will vary by build. Mine is extreme in that regard.

The game by design is set up to have class imbalance and extremely niche sets to provide and counter metas within the game.

This is something that took me a long time to grasp and accept. I think maybe some people are holding out for much better set / class / build balance than can ever be achieved, especially those who measure their prowess by duelling.

exiledtyrant wrote: »

FrankonPC wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

OK, I'll admit that I was unfairly questioning your integrity regarding your experience with proc sets and your preference for stat builds. At the same time, characterising proc sets as "free" is factually inaccurate. You can argue about what's free about them and what's not, but it is a grey area. It's used as such a cheap shot by everyone holding your position and in such a casual way, it's extremely irritating. I am also on the side of sabresandiego_ESO when it comes to fun. I think you can have fun with or without procs and whether next patch will be as problematic as Viper / Tremorscale is by no means obvious to me, even now.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildEditor?id=157224 .


Here's a full stat spec this patch on your class, balorgh, war maiden and necro. I intentionally build no recovery so that we have highly buffed tooltips, scaling the damage even higher for stat based builds.


Max Stat War maiden concealed: 14,361
Max Stat War Maiden Soul Harvest: 22971

A two hit combination with these two sets yields 37,332 tooltip damage. With full ultimate balorgh, the tooltip goes up to 24,574, with more pen. So roughly 39k ish damage with full balorgh

Here's substituting caluurions for war maiden, feel free to adjust it yourself and compare:
Caluurions Concealed: 12,938
Caluurions Soul harvest: 20,695

A two hit combo with everything else remaining the same yields a 33,633 tooltip damage. With balorgh at 500 ultimate, it goes up to 22k, so roughly 35k overall damage with this combination at 500 ultimate.

You lose roughly 4k damage on your overall tooltips switching this one set, but you gain 20k proc that is guaranteed to land with this combination every 10 seconds.

So between the two, with the same two hit combination, you have 37k damage(39k fully buffed) vs 55k...which as you know on a magicka nightblade with concealed weapon, caluurions hits almost every time when they're not cc immune. This is reliable burst. This is a difference of 34% in burst when you switch out the one set.

Now let's add my other sets I was running, Caluurions Overwhelming and Zaan:

Concealed tooltip: 12,128
Soul Harvest: 19,401

So 31k damage with a 20k tooltip caluurions that will land every 10 seconds = 51k. 51k vs 39k damage, or a % difference of 26% on your overall burst between these two abilities WITH the ability to still proc overwhelming and zaan, which is more damage.

Now you can absolutely say that 500 ultimate balorgh has more pen as well and will do more damage than what the tooltips show, which is 100% true! It's not going to offset 26% damage shown though. Balorgh at 500 ultimate will give you ~17%(11500 pen with 500 ult balorgh divided by 660) more damage with the full pen than what is showing, but it's still not more damage than just the caluurions proc. This is just taking into account caluurions and not overwhelming or zaan of course, which would be an even larger difference in overall damage done, when they proc.

So when people talk about how procs give "free" damage, it's because the utility of running multiple procs on the same spec is giving more damage than what a max stat build will give for doing the exact same thing.

To truly prove proc sets are doing more damage than stat based sets you would have to provide a much more rigorous test:

1. Match the highest stat based set vs the highest proc based set within a 10 second window. Necropotence + Clever alchemist under spell power pot vs Caluurions + Overwhelming with spell power pot.

2. Have both sets under the effect of malacath so their is no critical variance.

3. Match a fairly net neutral helm set that is not prone to variance and player error that benefits both proc and stat based sets equally. I would suggest slimecrawl as nothing can be more generic and straightforward than 8% damage to everything.

4. Test a PvP rotation over 10 seconds with 1, 2 , and 3 weaved skills and determine total damage done after battle spirit for each.

5. Test a PvP opening rotation using 1, 2, and 3 weaved skills and determine how much burst happens within the time frame for each after battle spirit.

I would hypothesize that there is more burst potential within the first few hits of a proc set than a stat based set which than either falls off altogether or equalizes at the 10 second mark. This should be especially true on the 1 ability weave vs the 3 ability weave test as stat based sets get stronger the more damage abilities are used. All this would mean is that proc sets have a niche of being bursty ( better vs lower resistance / health / sustain targets) and stat sets are better at sustained damage ( better vs high resistance / health / sustain targets).

If the burst itself is considered to high than the burst sets have to be put to the test vs setups that counter burst before even considering a nerf. That means taking the standardized test I mention above and stacking it against sets like Juggernaut, Orgnum's Scales etc.. and seeing if burst resistant setups are being overwhelmed. If procs sets warp the meta in a ways that counter based sets can't do their job that is an argument I can get behind. Even then it would have to prove that time to kill is so out of wack that under normal circumstances use of LOS and team play are circumvented by it.

Dueling is not going to provide this kind of data. The game by design is set up to have class imbalance and extremely niche sets to provide and counter metas within the game. These imbalances are put in place to encourage group play and place safety valves on one setup vs another. You can't balance that kind of system in a 1 v1 environment.

To me, this is the most objective post in this thread. And to me, would be the most accurate to test whether procs are too strong or not.

exiledtyrant wrote: »

To truly prove proc sets are doing more damage than stat based sets you would have to provide a much more rigorous test:
[...]
I would hypothesize that there is more burst potential within the first few hits of a proc set than a stat based set which than either falls off altogether or equalizes at the 10 second mark. This should be especially true on the 1 ability weave vs the 3 ability weave test as stat based sets get stronger the more damage abilities are used. All this would mean is that proc sets have a niche of being bursty ( better vs lower resistance / health / sustain targets) and stat sets are better at sustained damage ( better vs high resistance / health / sustain targets).

I have done some testing similar to what you propose and the results were pretty clear :https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6869075#Comment_6869075

Procs are able to provide higher burst and higher sustained pressure than stat sets.
But not just numbers are in favour of procs. Those sets also allow for a lot more passive/defensive build and playstyle, the dmg they provide is free (no resource and gcd cost) and the trivial proc conditions makes it very easy to gain full benefits from the sets. Meanwhile stat sets typically require more effort for less value.