Grinding to 50 is Deterring me from Creating Alts. Why is it There?

MudcrabSammich · November 2017

agegarton wrote: »

There’s a simple answer to this: a Crown Store item that allows you to level up a new alt to Level 50, but which only works when at least one of your characters has completed Cadwell’s Gold. That way it’s optional, and you will have demonstrated that you have completed much of the main game.

so you would make me do quests in the other 2 zones? That doesn't make it much fun when I do make my alts, because then I've already experienced those zones on my 1st character. And why, o why, should it cost me crowns?

Mureel · November 2017

Alaztor91 wrote: »

Kinda agree with OP, overland content is so easy that grinding to 50 vs a consumable that brings you to lvl 50 wouldn't really make a difference since you don't really learn anything about your character doing quests or delves.(I just had a CP 690 sorc in vBC1 pledge hard casting crystal frags over and over... come on)

As for your second suggestion it's something that directly competes with crown store xp scrolls so ZOS probably won't add them.

Get used to seeing frags hard cast. since stun was removed from the morph that can proc instant, people are taking the other morph for the stun + addtl dmg. Someone may have been just testing it.

Mureel · November 2017

bmannb16_ESO wrote: »

I can grind up a magica char in 6-8 hours, with the Halloween event I just did it in 4. And I only ran the first main quest mission, and 1 random daily dungeon.

To be fair I'm at 700+ cp, so that can make a huge difference.

How? You cannot use the CP till 50+? Do they still apply (Don't really make alts but was considering it and I have 700+ EU and 400+ NA)

Chilly-McFreeze · November 2017

Surely I am not going to read 8 pages of this, so I just throw in my thoughts.

Grinding is tedious, it's always like that no matter what you grind, where you do it or in which game. Grinding for item X is just as annoying as anything else. But it's one way to artificial prolong the playtime for the devs. They can't put out new zones every week so there needs to be a mechanic that binds the player at it. Achievements, grinding or at best a high replay value are some ways to go.

And here is where it starts. For me personally, the replay value could be higher. You do the exact same quests no matter on what class. In addition most quests don't give meaningful choices if they give you any choice at all. Not to speak of the effects these choices might have. Here and there are some nice options (cwc, mage guild, main quest) but problem is, these are at the very end of the quest line and don't impact you. Would have made it a difference if you choose to sacrifice the swordsinger instead of the blind old man? Maybe, but only for a minute.

I feel that the "grind" to 50 wouldn't even be an issue at all if there were some kind of specific quests for each class or race.

BladedMischief · November 2017

Just gonna drop my thoughts/opinions in here:-
Whilst I don't like levelling alts, it's nice to try different classes/builds. And no one is forcing me; or anyone for that matter to level another character. And whilst I understand the annoyance and the whole not wanting to level alts, it's something that's optional. Those 8 character slots don't have to be filled. So, you don't have to create an alt.
The grind to 50, as annoying as it is, I see it as a sort of training period to see if you like your new alt. So, whilst you're grinding to level it; you're getting to know the alt and its skills. And if you don't like it, then there's no real work lost as its below 50 (in my opinion anyway)
It takes me a couple hours to level on a good day, and it's not too bad when you find a good spot to do so.
I find that it helps when you're with a group. Makes the grind more bearable in a way.
Right now, I have 3 characters that are almost max CP. And two others that are close to level 50.

Ajaxduo · November 2017

bhagwad wrote: »

Suggestions:

1. I don't mind paying crowns for a consumable that brings us up to 50. Make it so that you need to already have some characters at lvl cap before you can use it.

No offense but I find these requests in MMO's silly, let's get this straight...you want to pay to skip playing the game? Why? Just play something else if you find it that boring.

Also leveling to 50 now is a joke, it can be done in the matter of hours without an event active.

MakoFore · November 2017

never seemed that long to me, I always take a toon and do the same thing-
do main quest line
get shards in all zones except cyrodil, morrowind and cwc
lore books to MG level 10.
alliance my toon til i get vigor- normally takes about 3 hours or so.
all that- all in all normally takes about a day or so real game time. so about a week or a weekend if I'm free.
after that I'm usually at about level 40 or so- and its easy to grind til 50. i recommend doing IC or the sewers, u can make some money, keys and earn xp at once- so it dosent seem so tedious.
the real grind for me - is getting my guy combat ready - and levelling all the weapon lines the i ll need before i m ready to take the toon to a vet dungeon or a trial .
anyway believe it or not i ve done this over 16 times now across 2 accounts, with almost all the classes. I'm currently on the final class i ll ever do it with as all i wanted was one of each class- and the mag warden is the last of those i ll do.
im glad i ll never have to farm lore books and shards again- but a part of me will miss it. i ll normally just put on some music or a podcast- and just zone out and enjoy the scenery of travelling across cyrodil. i put myself in the mind of an adventurer going across the land- if someone in zone chat asks for some gear to be crafted or any other help at a WB or something, i try to stop and help. it takes away the tediousness of it.

i guess for some that s boring as hell- but i ve come to enjoy it - and get kinda used to it. point is- fishing can be a boring chore if the point is to get as many fish as possible- if its to enjoy some time with nature - then you ll actually find you enjoy it. just what works for me in this game- but again- maybe thats just me. ..

Haquor · November 2017

Kalante wrote: »

i guess this guy doesn't know about the veteran ranks when we you had to reach level 50 sixteen times over to reach max level for just ONE CHARACTER and then be able to use vr16 enchants and weapons. Good days.

Clearing main story, fg, mages guild and every quest delve dungeon dolmen amd boss in EVERY zone and realising you still werent vr12/14/16 yet so then heading to cyrodil to do all the repeatable town quests in an attempt to cap.

Super fun.

Getting to 50 is so fricken easy now.

Drazkyth · November 2017

I created another alt last night, already level 39 with no grinding involved. Just casually doing the normal dungeons, a few delves and a couple of dolmens and world bosses. It's not that hard.

Would you prefer to just buy the game and be handed a bunch max level toons with BiS gear?
You can't be bothered to level an alt to 50? Fine. You won't get that character maxed then. Tough.

goatlyonesub17_ESO · November 2017

Level 50 is easy to get if your character is wearing all training trait armor and does a lot of extra killing. I started a character in Bleakrock and was into champion points before finishing Deshaan.

Schemering · November 2017

level stamina chars in forgotten crypt public dungeon; deshaan and you will be level 50 in a daypart and level 10 fighters guild when you hit level 50. Magicka chars i prefer to level in wrothgar public dungeon as it is even faster than forgotten crypt

SydneyGrey · November 2017

Ojustaboo wrote: »

And what is the result. I haven't a clue how to play him. I would still be like this if I had slowly gone through each quest as I could simply use one skill on most mobs without even trying.
I've read up on DK builds, I've started going through Morrowind for my first time (only recently bought it when I found the discovery upgrade pack for sale for just £17.86) and doesn't matter how I try to learn the skills, the mobs are all dead in seconds.
So at some point I'm going to be one of those guys with 690 CP who gets invited to a group and hasn't a clue how to play.

It's everybody's responsibility to learn how to play their character before they start doing group content, as you know. I know your point is that people who level fast might not learn how to play that class effectively, but it's not like people suddenly lose the ability to learn the class after they hit 50.
What about people who already know how to play the class, and are leveling up their second character in that class? What about people who level up a new class, who have zero intention of doing group content until they know how to play it and are competent with the role?

Cpt_Teemo · November 2017

bhagwad wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

bhagwad wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

bhagwad wrote: »

Motherball wrote: »

I feel the opposite. Once I get to 50 I feel like deleting and starting over. I really wish there was an XP pause button so I could be lvl 35 indefinitly, or even better, once I hit 50, let me choose what level I want to be whenever I want.

I think this highlights the wide variety of goals for people in the game. And they're all equally valid.

For me, the game doesn't start until I'm at max gear, full divines, all skills maxed, and rotations are perfect. Everything till then is just an obstacle so I can finally start playing.

You have the opposing goal. Now while it might be impossible to make accommodations for everyone, at least all the major goals should be met. What is "major"? Number of people who have a certain end game goal.

It sounds like you're a MOBA or FPS type of player whether you know it or not. And you wouldn't be alone: many more people play those than MMOs. Those games dispense with leveling so they should be right up your alley.

Why do MMOs have leveling? Because that is the kind of game that those of us who like MMOs like to play. They're different from the type of game you apparently like.

That's why your comments sound so weird here. Because you're trying to promote the non-leveling play style of other gaming genres into a genre that is all about leveling.

A lot of us wouldn't play the kind of ESO you want because when it comes to no leveling, lobbies with quick runs, there are plenty of better games to do that in... games that are designed that way.

I've given examples of MMOs like GW2, that allow for quick creation of max level characters as long as you've already played the game for a long time and have already maxed out characters before.

Is GW2 not an MMO then?

This argument you put forth lacks strength because what it means to be an MMO is constantly changing. There is nothing fixed about it.

except. we have already told you that in games like, say GW2. you STILL have to go through all the zones you just skipped with a token, because you need those extra skill points to unlock masteries, etc. and unlike ESO, GW2 downleveles you when you go into those zones, so you are exactly back where you started. the only good thing about GW2 max level token is that it places you exactly where ESO starts you off - allowing you freedom to go anywhere you want or need, from the start. lvl 80 token in GW2 is a faximily of one tamriel scaling.

and another game you brought up is WoW. which still makes you level and you still need to gear up. it just lets you skip old zones and go straight into expansion. something you can already do in ESO.

P.S. nowadays, people don't use tomes of knowledge to level alts. they save them to use at max level, to get spirit shards.

I left before they introduced masteries etc, so I wouldn't know about that...Also, I remember the "downeleveling" thing was a joke, because mobs in lower levels would still die in one hit from a maxed out character due to all the gear etc which could only be equiped by a high level character. It's most definitely not "back to where you started". Far from it! One could kill an area boss in just a couple of hits, no problem.

As for WoW, I couldn't have brought it up, because I have never played WoW!

There is a level boost both for WoW & Swtor as well, but the level boosts for WoW are always 10 levels below the current expansion so you still have to level a bit.

Preypacer · November 2017

redspecter23 wrote: »

3 hours of grind is too much for you? This game is amazingly alt friendly due to the CP system. You also don't need to do any quests if you choose not to. Or you can. It's up to you. Collect as many or as few skill points as you want. It's all up to you.

I wish ZOS would have a level 50 token in the store so people can pay $100 for a level 50 character only to realize they still need to go collect skills and skill points to get where they need to be. Getting to 50 is easy. The other character advancement is the actual time sink.

I understand the sentiment of your 'level 50 token' remark (not condoning it, basically), but...eh... let's not give them any ideas lol. A certain other mainstream, multi-platform MMO based on a popular IP implemented something like that and well...all I can say is, a developer has to basically say "Yeah, all that content we spent so long designing and creating and implementing so players could enjoy it as they grew and developed their character? Screw that. Let's just sell them a token that lets them skip all that".

While they don't lock players from content (heck I got Bloodroot and Falkreath as Randoms on my pre-CP level 30 character... that was interesting!), the levels do serve a purpose, still, as it still lends to a sense of progression which is important in a MMORPG, or just an RPG in general.

It might be tiresome to someone like the OP, or others, whom are on their 3rd or 4th alt. For players who are on their first or second characters, or enjoy that progression in general - as every character is different - it's not a problem at all.

Maybe a change of pace and approach is what's needed? The OP seems to be reducing their options down to "ways to grind to 50 as fast as possible" and is deciding which would be the least painful and boring. In my own personal opinion, if your approach to a game is to find out "which way will be least boring and painful to play", you just might be "doing it wrong".

bhagwad · November 2017

newtinmpls wrote: »

bhagwad wrote: »

Translation: You must always suffer through a bad situation instead of trying to change it for the better. Otherwise, you're a "whiny child".

Situation vs your own attitude/approach

Which one can you control?

Hint: it's not the situation.

Not true. Situations can be changed. Animals adapt to their environment. Humans change the environment!

mirta000b16_ESO · November 2017

Mureel wrote: »

How? You cannot use the CP till 50+? Do they still apply (Don't really make alts but was considering it and I have 700+ EU and 400+ NA)

on an alt you can use CP at level 1.

gimpdrb14_ESO · November 2017

grinding skill points and skyshards is what is stopping me

Sweetpea704 · November 2017

You need to play a toon to learn how to play it. It sounds to me like you are my nightmare PUG. You come into a dungeon with 470 CP on an alt that you grind in a day but have no skillpoints on, no skyshards. If you're a tank, you don't have inner fire. If you are a healer, you can't give shards or orbs. If you are a DPS, you don't have the passives that make you really give good damage.

When I level a toon, I do the four main skillpoint quests in my faction zones OR I do the four main quests in another faction zones to mix it up. Then, I get all the books and skyshards in each of those zones and usually finish off with world bosses, dolmens, Cyrodiil, or a Sewer run. It really doesn't take any longer, especially if I get a scroll pack from the crown store.

ZOS_Mika · November 2017

We have recently removed a handful of off topic and insulting comments. Please be sure to keep all discussion on the forums civil and respectful.

bhagwad · November 2017

Sweetpea704 wrote: »

You need to play a toon to learn how to play it. It sounds to me like you are my nightmare PUG. You come into a dungeon with 470 CP on an alt that you grind in a day but have no skillpoints on, no skyshards. If you're a tank, you don't have inner fire. If you are a healer, you can't give shards or orbs. If you are a DPS, you don't have the passives that make you really give good damage.

When I level a toon, I do the four main skillpoint quests in my faction zones OR I do the four main quests in another faction zones to mix it up. Then, I get all the books and skyshards in each of those zones and usually finish off with world bosses, dolmens, Cyrodiil, or a Sewer run. It really doesn't take any longer, especially if I get a scroll pack from the crown store.

Don't worry, I wouldn't set foot in a vet dungeon without first having >20k dps. Same for other roles. But grinding undaunted on vet dungeons is much more efficient than doing them on normal. As for leveling skills, a single random daily dungeon reward with enlightenment is enough to bring up the morphs.

newtinmpls · November 2017

Mureel wrote: »

How? You cannot use the CP till 50+? Do they still apply (Don't really make alts but was considering it and I have 700+ EU and 400+ NA)

Yup, they apply on any character, if you have them on the account. May account for why some folks feel the subsequent levelings are so easy.

SugaComa · November 2017

Should be an option after grinding three characters to 50 that all other characters you start have a message like the one for training asking if you want to skip it, asking do you want to skip level to level 50 and play the game on CP mode

Kimba_Do · November 2017

bhagwad wrote: »

To all the responses against instantly leveling from 1-50:

{
snip
}

Is there any OTHER reason anyone can give me to not instantly level from 1-50?

Oh oh oh! Let me try!!

The people that own the rights to the game and spent the millions on development and hardware want it this way.

So do I get a skooma cookie?

sevomd69 · November 2017

bhagwad wrote: »

To all the responses against instantly leveling from 1-50:

1. It's an MMO - that's the way it is!

That's an illogical response. It does not address why something should be there. Only that "It's always been this way".

2. It was much, much worse before with vet levels etc

Again, this is not a logical argument to make someone grind from 1-50. Sure, it might have been worse before. But so what? That has no impact on whether or not the current grind is necessary.

3. You should enjoy questing, developing your character etc.

Everyone plays for different reasons. You like to quest. Great! You like to develop your character. Fantastic! Others like me, like to play in the toughest content, and grinding from 1-50 gives me nothing by itself. It's just a meaningless hurdle - ESPECIALLY when we already have multiple characters at level cap.

4. Grinding allows you to learn your character

I ground my very first magplar from 1-50 the slow way. It did NOT prepare me for my vet dungeon rotations, weaving light attacks, timing buffs, resource management etc. The skills required to output maximum sustained DPS, healing, tanking, have NOTHING to do with the way you play while leveling up questing.

Not to mention that if you dolmen grind your skills, or get a skyreach carry, you won't learn anything anyway!

If I hit lvl 50 instantly, I will THEN learn how to do a proper DPS by repeatedly parsing and perfecting my skills on a target skeleton before I even set foot in a dungeon.

5. You won't have enough skill points if you just reach 50.

Since I've already maxed out crafting on my other two characters, I need just 80 skill points in total to complete my new build. I get 64 by leveling, 2 from stepping into Cyrodill. That means just 14 more points, and I can get those from finishing the dungeon quests. Problem solved.

Is there any OTHER reason anyone can give me to not instantly level from 1-50?

Because ESO is not your private personal playground....maybe?

Merlin13KAGL · November 2017

bhagwad wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

bhagwad wrote: »

Slick_007 wrote: »

bhagwad wrote: »

Because if something challenges your skill and luck, then it's not a grind. Leveling to 50 does neither!

its challenging enough to you and others that you have to come to the forum and whinge about it.
i dont want to lvl. i should start at cp160
why level those skills. i should instantly be given the morphs

what you want is a game without customization, where you can just login and instantly play. something like call of duty maybe. where they just give you the character and you play it.

newsflash precious people: ESO aint it. and should ZOS ever decide it is, that will be the death of the game. because all those people will arent completely lazy and find levelling a challenge will leave. and then you can spend your time in the dungeon q because nobody will be here to play with you.

i get that you dont like levelling and think you should just be able to play end game content. Thats fine. But you know what, you still gotta do it like everyone else. If thats too hard for you, you know where the uninstall button is. You said that we are asking someone to have the same in-game goals as us. Well, you're doing something worse. You're asking an established game to change the game to suit what you think it should be. Not what the game actually is. Thats not necessarily a bad thing, except you want it to be a different game. One where you dont have to put any time or effort into it to get to the top. That is a very bad thing.

You use the word "challenging". I use the word "boring". If I were to ask you dig a hole and refill it 300 times, would you say it "challenges" you? Or would you just say it bores you?

Depends, do you get to use an earthmover or a spoon?

You forgot option C: No one is required to dig the hole at all.

Getting to max level on a different role/class doesn't automatically provide proficiency with that role/class. Part of that 'grind' time is for that purpose, regardless of how many times you've played alts.

People requesting insta-end game will be the same people [snip] because they're bored because they are no longer challenged, as there are no more new holes to dig and refill.

Regrind real max level on an alt, CP's and all, with gear that's not so easily tradeable among group members,and you'll have a new found appreciation for the fact that the 'grind' to 50 is as generous as it is.

So where is the "earthmover" for ESO? Where is the tool that I can use to lvl up a new character in 10 minutes? That's an earthmover. So far, we have only spoons.

Proficiency with the class is acquired by spending a long time in front of the practice dummy, getting your rotations, light weaves, buff timings, potions, weapon enchant procs etc down pat. None of that is obtained by leveling a toon from 1-50. You're missing half the skills, your resource pools don't match the end game, you don't have the gear that will give you desired buffs.

Basically, end game is COMPLETELY different from leveling. There is zero value trade over. Absolutely 0. It has as much value as digging a hole.

And again, saying things were bad before is not a reasonable excuse to keep a bad situation around.

@bhagwad be grateful for the spoon, because we used to have to do it with a coffee stirrer.

50 hours. 50 hours (guessing the average) to maxed skill lines, level 50, guilds covered, and plenty of skyshards, even an Alliance rank or few. I say this figure because no matter how quickly your earthmover ("Skyreach, Inc.) to CP-land, even if your gear is already waiting, those other things are still going to take a certain amount of time, regardless.

Six months. Six months @ 4 hours a day, starting from no characters, to 14 maxed slots.

The problem with "insta accounts" is that it brings in people that don't know what they're doing in the actual game. (Target skeletons don't hit back, btw, so unless you're talking about a parse, I'd hardly agree with your idea of gaining proficiency with a class.)

There are a virtual ton of players with high CP right now that don't have the first clue how to play. This would aggravate that even further.

If you want to play the game, then play the game. If you want to bypass everything else with template characters, then the PTS is where you want to be.

There's a helluva lot more to a class/role/player than their DPS score, their CP level, and the number of skyshards collected.

Nevermind that this clearly becomes P2W when you 'purchase' an end-game character.

Eiagra · November 2017

I've one of each class at 50, and frankly I wouldn't pay for that. There are double-XP events and plenty of ways to get XP boosted further with a scroll or potion stacked on the event that, back when I actually had time to play for more than an hour or so a day, I got 3 alts from 6-ish to 50 over the course of the event.

This last event, I had one alt I got up to 50. That's sufficient for my needs.

Maybe it's a matter of figuring out what you actually want to do in the game? I mean, MMOs are starting to move away from the "grind to make your numbers bigger" as its primary source of entertainment. Have you actually explored the content at all? Just for the sake of the content itself, not as a means to an end?

Take a look at Bartle's Taxonomy some time. Figure out if you're an Explorer, an Achiever, a Socializer, or a Killer. Map what you want to do in the game based on that.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=yxpW2ltDNow

Check the video above out and see if that provides some insight into how you game, and what you want out of a game.

(Addendum: I shouldn't post when I'm not awake, as I didn't realize there were 8 pages to this thing. Whoops! Sorry if this is actually already covered or redundant!)

Axoinus · November 2017

I would be ok with a consumable that takes you to 50, but I think you have to have put in your dues. Maybe require the player to be at Max CP before consumable works.

Keep in mind that MMOs are designed for grind. That's what makes it an MMO. So going against the formula is a paradigm shift in thinking.

bhagwad · November 2017

Kimba_Do wrote: »

bhagwad wrote: »

To all the responses against instantly leveling from 1-50:

{
snip
}

Is there any OTHER reason anyone can give me to not instantly level from 1-50?

Oh oh oh! Let me try!!

The people that own the rights to the game and spent the millions on development and hardware want it this way.

So do I get a skooma cookie?

Translation: Never complain about anything because the "People that own the rights to the game...want it this way".

VaranisArano · November 2017

bhagwad wrote: »

Kimba_Do wrote: »

bhagwad wrote: »

To all the responses against instantly leveling from 1-50:

{
snip
}

Is there any OTHER reason anyone can give me to not instantly level from 1-50?

Oh oh oh! Let me try!!

The people that own the rights to the game and spent the millions on development and hardware want it this way.

So do I get a skooma cookie?

Translation: Never complain about anything because the "People that own the rights to the game...want it this way".

Alternate translation: when you complain about things that are the way they are because the developers made them that way, "The developers made it that way" is a valid response. Don't expect the rest of us to fall over ourselves to give you cheese to go with your whine.

bhagwad · November 2017

VaranisArano wrote: »

bhagwad wrote: »

Kimba_Do wrote: »

bhagwad wrote: »

To all the responses against instantly leveling from 1-50:

{
snip
}

Is there any OTHER reason anyone can give me to not instantly level from 1-50?

Oh oh oh! Let me try!!

The people that own the rights to the game and spent the millions on development and hardware want it this way.

So do I get a skooma cookie?

Translation: Never complain about anything because the "People that own the rights to the game...want it this way".

Alternate translation: when you complain about things that are the way they are because the developers made them that way, "The developers made it that way" is a valid response. Don't expect the rest of us to fall over ourselves to give you cheese to go with your whine.

So why isn't "The developers made it that way" a valid response to every single complaint that users have?

I'll tell you why. It's because developers *gasp* change things! *mind blown*