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Official Feedback Thread for Poison-Making

  • Ghost-Shot
    Ghost-Shot
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    Moozzie wrote: »
    Ghost-Shot wrote: »
    Moozzie wrote: »
    LMar wrote: »
    Moozzie wrote: »
    How can this be pay to win?
    You won't need the expansion to use poisoning. It is in the base patch

    Because there are poisons being sold in the crown store as well. right now they are basic poisons but once there more types can be added.

    As long as you can make better poisons yourself then there wouldn't be an issue. You can also buy food in the store.

    The crown store poison deals nearly double the damage of the equivalent crafted poison as far as I have seen. Not sure if there is a stronger version you can craft but its not looking good atm...

    They noted somewhere that poisons with multiple effects are behaving wrong and are way stronger then intended.

    The food you can buy are not stronger then you can make. I think we should give ZOS the trust on this point that they won't make it p2w in the official release. Like they did not make food p2w

    That doesn't address the issue, I'm talking the crafted version, one trait of damage health, deals half the damage as the poison you can buy, which is blatantly pay to win. Honestly I have a serious issue with having an item that deals damage in the store in the first place, like there is no possible way to justify this not being pay to win.

    I wasn't aware that ZOS had recently outsourced development to Korea...
  • Sharee
    Sharee
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    Ghost-Shot wrote: »
    Moozzie wrote: »
    Ghost-Shot wrote: »
    Moozzie wrote: »
    LMar wrote: »
    Moozzie wrote: »
    How can this be pay to win?
    You won't need the expansion to use poisoning. It is in the base patch

    Because there are poisons being sold in the crown store as well. right now they are basic poisons but once there more types can be added.

    As long as you can make better poisons yourself then there wouldn't be an issue. You can also buy food in the store.

    The crown store poison deals nearly double the damage of the equivalent crafted poison as far as I have seen. Not sure if there is a stronger version you can craft but its not looking good atm...

    They noted somewhere that poisons with multiple effects are behaving wrong and are way stronger then intended.

    The food you can buy are not stronger then you can make. I think we should give ZOS the trust on this point that they won't make it p2w in the official release. Like they did not make food p2w

    That doesn't address the issue, I'm talking the crafted version, one trait of damage health, deals half the damage as the poison you can buy, which is blatantly pay to win.

    The crafted version has a 1sec cooldown while the crown version has a 4 sec cooldown.

    Edited by Sharee on April 28, 2016 9:44PM
  • talashgreydragb16_ESO
    talashgreydragb16_ESO
    Soul Shriven
    I really enjoy poison making (and using!) but I have a couple of concerns.

    As poisons are a legitimate replacement for enchanments (and that itself feels really cool!), the speed at which you can burn through poisons is alarming! I know you make a fair few poisons with each crafting (moreso than with potion crafting), but I still find myself running out of poisons whilst questing/adventuring/etc even when I had a stack of 200 equipped! One reason for this is I think that poisons just proc way too often.

    A lot of the poison effects have a 10 second duration (the ones that debuff your target or buff yourself), so maybe we could make the universal cooldown for poisons a little longer, so you don't keep overwriting this buff/debuff with the same effect. Perhaps to 4, 6 or even 8 seconds? The Infused trait would affect this in much the same way it does enchantments.

    The other concern I have is that enchantments are easy enough to recharge "in the field" as it were, simply by using a soul gem to charge up the item. Weapon out of charges mid-dungeon? No problem! Just recharge. Poisons run out? Uh-oh... Unless you have a portable alchemy lab (how cool would that be?!) you're out of luck I'm afraid.

    I think the best way to get around this would be for poisons to not truly "run out", but so long as you have one poison left equipped it will continue to proc, but at a MUCH reduced rate. Sure it's not a real fix for the unprepared player, but it won't be quite as crippling as running out of poison completely mid-dungeon/quest. Think of it as the player scraping the bottom of the vial for whatever poison they can (or some poison lingering on their blades).
  • Epona222
    Epona222
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    I made some poisons. I applied them to my weapon. Now they have worn out (several hours ago) I have a permanent "out of poison" icon at the bottom of the screen that I do not like. I mean I like it there when I first run out of poison, but if I do not apply more because I decided I prefer to use my weapon enchantments for a while, I would prefer the icon to go away after a while.
    GM - Ghost Sea Trading Co - NA PC

    Epona was a Romano-Celtic goddess dating back to around 1800 to 2000 years before computer games were invented.
  • Enodoc
    Enodoc
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    For those who are interested, I wanted to give a rundown of every Alchemy trait and the singular potion and poison effect associated with that trait. Traits are grouped by opposites, alphabetical by the positive effect.

    Detection
    Potion of Detection
    Increase your Stealth Detection by 20 meters for (x) seconds.
    Detection Poison
    Exposes your victim, preventing them from stealthing for (y < x) seconds.
    Invisible
    Potion of Invisibility
    Vanish for (x) seconds.
    Invisibility Poison
    Marks your victim, permitting you to see them while stealthed for (y < x) seconds.

    Increase Armor
    Potion of Armor
    Grants Major Resolve which increases your Physical Resistance by 5280 for (z) seconds.
    Armor Poison
    Drains Major Resolve from your victim, reducing their Armor by 1188 and increasing your Armor by 5280 for (y < z) seconds.
    Lower Armor
    Potion of Ravage Armor
    Applies Minor Fracture to you, reducing your Armor by 1188 for (z) seconds.
    Ravage Armor Poison
    Applies Minor Fracture to your victim, reducing Physical Resistance by 1188 for (y < z) seconds.

    Increase Spell Power
    Potion of Spell Power
    Grants Major Sorcery which increases your Spell Damage by 20% for (z) seconds.
    Magitoxin Poison
    Drains Major Sorcery from your target, increasing the cost of their Ultimate abilities by 30% and increasing your Spell Power by 20% for (y < z) seconds.
    Lower Spell Power
    Potion of Ravage Spell Power
    Applies Minor Cowardice to you, increasing your Ultimate cost by 30% for (z) seconds.
    Ravage Spell Power Poison
    Applies Minor Cowardice to your target, increasing the cost of Ultimate abilities by 30% for (y < z) seconds.

    Increase Spell Resist
    Potion of Spell Protection
    Grants you Major Ward which increases your Spell Resistance by 5280 for (z) seconds.
    Spell Protection Poison
    Drains Major Ward from your target, reducing their Spell Resistance by 1188 and increasing your Spell Resistance by 5280 for (y < z) seconds.
    Lower Spell Resist
    Potion of Ravage Spell Protection
    Applies Minor Breach to you, reducing your Spell Resistance by 1188 for (z) seconds.
    Ravage Spell Protection Poison
    Applies Minor Breach to your target, reducing Spell Resistance by 1188 for (y < z) seconds.

    Increase Weapon Power
    Potion of Weapon Power
    Grants Major Brutality which increases your Weapon Damage by 20% for (z) seconds.
    Weapon Power Poison
    Drains Major Brutality from your victim, reducing their Damage by 15% and increasing your Weapon Power by 20% for (y < z) seconds.
    Lower Weapon Power
    Potion of Ravage Weapon Power
    Applies Minor Maim to you, reducing all damage you deal by 15% for (z) seconds.
    Ravage Weapon Power
    Applies Minor Maim, reducing your victim's damage by 15% for (y < z) seconds.

    More to come tomorrow!


    For poisons to be comparable to potions, you need a direct counter example. Currently, "negative potions" are useless. Similarly therefore, "positive poisons" should be useless. However, from the ones I have done so far, there is a general trend developing that the "positive poisons" are more effective than the "negative poisons". The positives have exactly the same effect as the negatives, with the added bonus that they buff you as well. This makes the negatives pointless, as the positives are just outright more useful.

    A better situation would be to give the positives a minor effect for a short duration, and remove the buff, making them essentially useless (as they should be), and to give the negatives a major effect for a long duration so that they are the "go-to" traits for poisons. You wouldn't expect a "poison" made from the Increase Spell Resistance trait to be more useful than one made from the Decrease Spell Resistance trait, but that is currently what we're seeing on PTS.
    Edited by Enodoc on April 29, 2016 10:39PM
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    Join us on Discord - discord.gg/uesp
  • Epona222
    Epona222
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    Has anyone built up a list so far of where oils (eg Alkahest) can be obtained? I got some from a drop off a troll, but I don't know what other mobs to go for to build up a stock of oils.
    GM - Ghost Sea Trading Co - NA PC

    Epona was a Romano-Celtic goddess dating back to around 1800 to 2000 years before computer games were invented.
  • Ghost-Shot
    Ghost-Shot
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    @ZOS_GinaBruno

    Rather than having poisons fire automatically like an enchant, can we get a new key binding for your poison that's on a short cooldown? You could then make them suppress your weapon enchant for a certain duration, the cooldown maybe, after using a poison but ensures you aren't wasting what I'm sure will be at least initially an expensive consumable. And just to be clear I'm not talking about like a synergy or something but rather a totally new keybind for poisons.
  • Kas
    Kas
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    I was using the generic potions you can loot from defeated enemies. I noticed it staggers my combat rhythm when a potion triggers.

    Light attack > Ability Usage > Block Cancel > Repeat

    When a potion triggers, I think it's canceling the use of my skill right after the light attack, and dropping its input command or not registering it.

    I have experienced something similar with crafted potions:

    http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2929587#Comment_2929587

    This seems to be a major issues. However, I've had other weapon+poison combinations where the effect was not nearly as dramatic as in the case described in my thread
    @bbu - AD/EU
    Kasiia - Templar (AR46)
    Kasiir Aberion - Sorc (AR38)
    Dr Kastafari - Warden (~AR31)
    + many others
  • jzholloway
    jzholloway
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    "WE WANT POISONS, GIVE US POISON CRAFTING!!!"

    "POISON IS OP!!! RUINING THE GAME!!!"

    seriously love the forums...
    PC/NA
  • ZOS_Bel_Shezzar
    ZOS_Bel_Shezzar
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    Hey guys, wanted to chime in and say we definitely hear the balance concerns for Poison-Making- it’s a big part of why we called out in our known issues that these numbers are in no way final. We’re hearing you, and so here are some of the changes we’re making for the next PTS incremental patch and onward:
    • Increasing poison cooldowns to 10 seconds.
      • This gives us more comfortable balance points for poisons, both versus potential alpha strike scenarios and for stronger considerations for debilitating poison durations.
      • Your stacks of poison will also last much longer.
      • Poisons will also be more noticeably distinct from weapon enchantments, which largely deal in instant effects.
    • Converting all “instant” poison effects into “over-time” poison effects.
      • This gives us a very strong counter to potential alpha strike scenarios and also permits us to “trickle” positive feedback effects from drain poisons, such as the resource returns from Magicka/Stamina drain poisons.
    • Converting all “drain” poisons to convey both a minor debuff and minor buff, not a major buff.
      • A bit of a nice bonus – by doing this, there’s more value in alchemy in that your player abilities or potions will more easily stack with your potential self-buffing poisons.
    • Clarified the tooltips on all “drain” poisons.
      • They don’t actually remove buffs from players. They apply relevant debuffs to your target, and “splash” a relevant buff onto you when they trigger. We’ve clarified the wording to help message this more clearly.
    • Updated the item names, for clarity’s sake.
      • The pattern of differentiation between potions and poisons resulted in most poisons using the same names as potions (with different prefixes and suffixes) in 2.4.0, and despite icon differences and the different naming pattern there was still a lot of potential for confusion, especially in what a poison actually does.
    • There were also some cases where reagents and oils weren’t always dropping as intended, and we fixed those too.

    All of the above items are in place for next week's PTS incremental patch. There are some more changes and updates we’re planning for future PTS patches:
    • Significant changes to poison effect durations and the logic we use to arrive on that.
      • Effectively, we’ll be adjusting the maximum duration certain poisons can last. Poisons granting Unstoppable or Vulnerability for example are lasting significantly longer than intended.
    • Core implementation of “dilution.”
      • This addition will ensure that the more effects there are on a poison, the less time each of those effects will last. Certain very powerful effects may, when diluted, last only an eye blink.
    • Adjustments to how the FX display.
      • In some cases VFX are inadvertently firing continuously as long as the poison is active which is not intended.

    As always, please continue experimenting with the system and providing feedback. We are listening to everything you all have to say about Poison-Making and are actively tuning the system.
    Chris Balser
    Systems Team - The Elder Scrolls Online
    Staff Post
  • ginoboehm
    ginoboehm
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    Hey guys, wanted to chime in and say we definitely hear the balance concerns for Poison-Making- it’s a big part of why we called out in our known issues that these numbers are in no way final. We’re hearing you, and so here are some of the changes we’re making for the next PTS incremental patch and onward:
    • Increasing poison cooldowns to 10 seconds.
      • This gives us more comfortable balance points for poisons, both versus potential alpha strike scenarios and for stronger considerations for debilitating poison durations.
      • Your stacks of poison will also last much longer.
      • Poisons will also be more noticeably distinct from weapon enchantments, which largely deal in instant effects.
    • Converting all “instant” poison effects into “over-time” poison effects.
      • This gives us a very strong counter to potential alpha strike scenarios and also permits us to “trickle” positive feedback effects from drain poisons, such as the resource returns from Magicka/Stamina drain poisons.
    • Converting all “drain” poisons to convey both a minor debuff and minor buff, not a major buff.
      • A bit of a nice bonus – by doing this, there’s more value in alchemy in that your player abilities or potions will more easily stack with your potential self-buffing poisons.
    • Clarified the tooltips on all “drain” poisons.
      • They don’t actually remove buffs from players. They apply relevant debuffs to your target, and “splash” a relevant buff onto you when they trigger. We’ve clarified the wording to help message this more clearly.
    • Updated the item names, for clarity’s sake.
      • The pattern of differentiation between potions and poisons resulted in most poisons using the same names as potions (with different prefixes and suffixes) in 2.4.0, and despite icon differences and the different naming pattern there was still a lot of potential for confusion, especially in what a poison actually does.
    • There were also some cases where reagents and oils weren’t always dropping as intended, and we fixed those too.

    All of the above items are in place for next week's PTS incremental patch. There are some more changes and updates we’re planning for future PTS patches:
    • Significant changes to poison effect durations and the logic we use to arrive on that.
      • Effectively, we’ll be adjusting the maximum duration certain poisons can last. Poisons granting Unstoppable or Vulnerability for example are lasting significantly longer than intended.
    • Core implementation of “dilution.”
      • This addition will ensure that the more effects there are on a poison, the less time each of those effects will last. Certain very powerful effects may, when diluted, last only an eye blink.
    • Adjustments to how the FX display.
      • In some cases VFX are inadvertently firing continuously as long as the poison is active which is not intended.

    As always, please continue experimenting with the system and providing feedback. We are listening to everything you all have to say about Poison-Making and are actively tuning the system.

    ok why don't we hear more often from you? you actually make sense and communicate awesome with us. @ZOS_GinaBruno or @Woeler should do the same. you list every change in an understandable complete and reasond fasion. personaly i think this change will make poisons too weak to be a must have but we will see :-) can you tell us the reasoning behind the non existing stam sorc buffs or other hot topics? we need smb like you for communication
  • MoreDino
    MoreDino
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    Looking forward to seeing the changes implemented. I do wish these changes could be pushed faster than one week at a time considering the patch is due to go live in 4 weeks. While I understand there's work to be done tweaking values and whatnot, it really limits the extent of testing that can be done with any given version of the poisons.
  • Bloody-Goodbyes
    Bloody-Goodbyes
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    PvP is already unbalanced enough and adding poisons is just going to make that worse. Only gankers and players with tons of gold to spend on poisons benefit. This meta caters to stamina and gank builds which were already too OP, have fun nerfing/patching that in coming months.
    BLOODY-GOODBYES | BLOODY-HELLOS | BLOODY-AGAIN
    The Order of Magnus | Royal Bank of Tamriel | Made In Canada | Bad Luck Charms
  • Enodoc
    Enodoc
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    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Hey guys, wanted to chime in and say we definitely hear the balance concerns for Poison-Making- it’s a big part of why we called out in our known issues that these numbers are in no way final. We’re hearing you, and so here are some of the changes we’re making for the next PTS incremental patch and onward:
    • Increasing poison cooldowns to 10 seconds.
      • This gives us more comfortable balance points for poisons, both versus potential alpha strike scenarios and for stronger considerations for debilitating poison durations.
      • Your stacks of poison will also last much longer.
      • Poisons will also be more noticeably distinct from weapon enchantments, which largely deal in instant effects.
    • Converting all “instant” poison effects into “over-time” poison effects.
      • This gives us a very strong counter to potential alpha strike scenarios and also permits us to “trickle” positive feedback effects from drain poisons, such as the resource returns from Magicka/Stamina drain poisons.
    • Converting all “drain” poisons to convey both a minor debuff and minor buff, not a major buff.
      • A bit of a nice bonus – by doing this, there’s more value in alchemy in that your player abilities or potions will more easily stack with your potential self-buffing poisons.
    • Clarified the tooltips on all “drain” poisons.
      • They don’t actually remove buffs from players. They apply relevant debuffs to your target, and “splash” a relevant buff onto you when they trigger. We’ve clarified the wording to help message this more clearly.
    • Updated the item names, for clarity’s sake.
      • The pattern of differentiation between potions and poisons resulted in most poisons using the same names as potions (with different prefixes and suffixes) in 2.4.0, and despite icon differences and the different naming pattern there was still a lot of potential for confusion, especially in what a poison actually does.
    • There were also some cases where reagents and oils weren’t always dropping as intended, and we fixed those too.

    All of the above items are in place for next week's PTS incremental patch. There are some more changes and updates we’re planning for future PTS patches:
    • Significant changes to poison effect durations and the logic we use to arrive on that.
      • Effectively, we’ll be adjusting the maximum duration certain poisons can last. Poisons granting Unstoppable or Vulnerability for example are lasting significantly longer than intended.
    • Core implementation of “dilution.”
      • This addition will ensure that the more effects there are on a poison, the less time each of those effects will last. Certain very powerful effects may, when diluted, last only an eye blink.
    • Adjustments to how the FX display.
      • In some cases VFX are inadvertently firing continuously as long as the poison is active which is not intended.

    As always, please continue experimenting with the system and providing feedback. We are listening to everything you all have to say about Poison-Making and are actively tuning the system.
    Sounds pretty good. If this is coupled with increased potency and/or duration of the negative effect poisons, so they are significantly more useful than the positive effect poisons, then that would be great.

    I still don't agree with "draining" though. There is no logical reason for a poison to transfer anything back to the attacker and result in a buff.
    UESP: The Unofficial Elder Scrolls Pages - A collaborative source for all knowledge on the Elder Scrolls series since 1995
    Join us on Discord - discord.gg/uesp
  • Ghost-Shot
    Ghost-Shot
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    @Bel_Shezzar Can you comment on the crown store poison?
  • Woeler
    Woeler
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    ginoboehm wrote: »
    Hey guys, wanted to chime in and say we definitely hear the balance concerns for Poison-Making- it’s a big part of why we called out in our known issues that these numbers are in no way final. We’re hearing you, and so here are some of the changes we’re making for the next PTS incremental patch and onward:
    • Increasing poison cooldowns to 10 seconds.
      • This gives us more comfortable balance points for poisons, both versus potential alpha strike scenarios and for stronger considerations for debilitating poison durations.
      • Your stacks of poison will also last much longer.
      • Poisons will also be more noticeably distinct from weapon enchantments, which largely deal in instant effects.
    • Converting all “instant” poison effects into “over-time” poison effects.
      • This gives us a very strong counter to potential alpha strike scenarios and also permits us to “trickle” positive feedback effects from drain poisons, such as the resource returns from Magicka/Stamina drain poisons.
    • Converting all “drain” poisons to convey both a minor debuff and minor buff, not a major buff.
      • A bit of a nice bonus – by doing this, there’s more value in alchemy in that your player abilities or potions will more easily stack with your potential self-buffing poisons.
    • Clarified the tooltips on all “drain” poisons.
      • They don’t actually remove buffs from players. They apply relevant debuffs to your target, and “splash” a relevant buff onto you when they trigger. We’ve clarified the wording to help message this more clearly.
    • Updated the item names, for clarity’s sake.
      • The pattern of differentiation between potions and poisons resulted in most poisons using the same names as potions (with different prefixes and suffixes) in 2.4.0, and despite icon differences and the different naming pattern there was still a lot of potential for confusion, especially in what a poison actually does.
    • There were also some cases where reagents and oils weren’t always dropping as intended, and we fixed those too.

    All of the above items are in place for next week's PTS incremental patch. There are some more changes and updates we’re planning for future PTS patches:
    • Significant changes to poison effect durations and the logic we use to arrive on that.
      • Effectively, we’ll be adjusting the maximum duration certain poisons can last. Poisons granting Unstoppable or Vulnerability for example are lasting significantly longer than intended.
    • Core implementation of “dilution.”
      • This addition will ensure that the more effects there are on a poison, the less time each of those effects will last. Certain very powerful effects may, when diluted, last only an eye blink.
    • Adjustments to how the FX display.
      • In some cases VFX are inadvertently firing continuously as long as the poison is active which is not intended.

    As always, please continue experimenting with the system and providing feedback. We are listening to everything you all have to say about Poison-Making and are actively tuning the system.

    ok why don't we hear more often from you? you actually make sense and communicate awesome with us. @ZOS_GinaBruno or @Woeler should do the same. you list every change in an understandable complete and reasond fasion. personaly i think this change will make poisons too weak to be a must have but we will see :-) can you tell us the reasoning behind the non existing stam sorc buffs or other hot topics? we need smb like you for communication

    @ginoboehm Can you please stop mentioning me? I'm not a ZOS employee...
    Edited by Woeler on April 29, 2016 10:26PM
  • Mojmir
    Mojmir
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    FB_IMG_1461968343533_zpsmnpkn40s.jpg

    New trip pot lol
  • GOREKIN
    GOREKIN
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    The issue I am having the passive lines tell you nothing about poisons. The whole craft tree doesn't even talk about making poisons> this needs to be fixed
  • Enodoc
    Enodoc
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    Here's part two of my run though of the Alchemy traits and their associated singular effects. This will obviously need to be adjusted after 2.4.1, but I thought I'd carry on with it anyway.

    Protection
    Potion of Protection
    Grants you Minor Protection, reducing your damage taken by 8% for (z) seconds.
    Protection Poison
    Inflicts Minor Vulnerability, increasing damage your victim takes by 8% for (y < z) seconds.
    Also grants you Minor Protection, reducing your damage taken by 8% for (y < z) seconds.
    Vulnerability
    Potion of Vulnerability
    Grants you Minor Vulnerability, increasing your damage taken by 8% for (z) seconds.
    Vulnerability Poison
    Inflicts Minor Vulnerability, increasing damage your victim takes by 8% for (y < z) seconds.

    Restore Health
    Potion of Health
    Restore (u) Health immediately. Grants Major Fortitude which increases your Health Recovery by 20% for (z) seconds.
    Health Poison
    Drains Health from your target, dealing (w < v) Poison Damage to your target and restoring (v < u) Health to you.
    Ravage Health
    Potion of Ravage Health
    Ravage (k > u) Health immediately. Ravage an additional (j) Health over (z) seconds.
    Ravage Health Poison
    Deals (2w) Poison Damage.

    Restore Magicka
    Potion of Magicka
    Restore (s) Magicka immediately. Grants you Major Intellect which increases your Magicka Recovery by 20% for (z) seconds.
    Magicka Poison
    Drains Magicka from your target, increasing the cost of their Magicka abilities by 30% for (y < z) seconds and restoring (v < s) Magicka to you.
    Ravage Magicka
    Potion of Ravage Magicka
    Increases the cost of Magicka abilities by 30% for (z) seconds.
    Ravage Magicka Poison
    Increases the cost of your victim's Magicka abilities by 30% for (y < z) seconds.

    Restore Stamina
    Potion of Stamina
    Restore (s) Stamina immediately. Grants Major Endurance which increases your Stamina Recovery by 20% for (z) seconds.
    Stamina Poison
    Drains Stamina from your target, increasing the cost of their Stamina abilities by 30% for (y < z) seconds and restoring (v < s) Stamina to you.
    Ravage Stamina
    Potion of Ravage Stamina
    Increases the cost of Stamina abilities by 30% for (z) seconds.
    Ravage Stamina Poison
    Increases the cost of your victim's Stamina abilities by 30% for (y < z) seconds.

    Speed
    Potion of Speed
    Grants Major Expedition which increases your Movement Speed by 30% for (z) seconds.
    Speed Poison
    Drains Major Expedition from your target, reducing their Movement Speed by 50% and increasing your Movement Speed by 30% for (y < z) seconds.
    Reduce Speed
    Potion of Slow
    Applies Hindrance to you, reducing your Movement Speed by 50% for (z) seconds.
    Slow Poison
    Applies Hindrance to your target, reducing Movement Speed by 50% for (y < z) seconds.

    More to come later!


    As before, with one exception, poisons created from positive traits have exactly the same effect on the enemy as those poisons created from negative traits, with the added bonus from the positive traits that they buff you as well. This needs to be adjusted so the negative traits are more preferable for poisons.
    UESP: The Unofficial Elder Scrolls Pages - A collaborative source for all knowledge on the Elder Scrolls series since 1995
    Join us on Discord - discord.gg/uesp
  • Enodoc
    Enodoc
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    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Here's the last section of my rundown of Alchemy traits in 2.4.0 and their associated singular effects. As before, traits are grouped by opposites, listed alphabetically by the positive effect.

    Spell Crit
    Potion of Spell Critical
    Grants Major Prophecy which gives you 2191 Spell Critical Rating for (z) seconds.
    Spell Critical Poison
    Drains Major Prophecy from your victim, reducing their Weapon and Spell Critical by 2191 and increasing your Spell Critical by 2191 for (y < z) seconds.
    Lower Spell Crit
    Potion of Ravage Spell Crit
    Applies Minor Uncertainty to you, reducing all critical ratings by 2191 for (z) seconds.
    Ravage Spell Crit Poison
    Applies Minor Uncertainty to your victim, reducing all critical ratings by 2191 for (y < z) seconds.

    Sustained Restore Health
    Potion of Lingering Health
    Restore (m) Health per second for (z) seconds.
    Lingering Health Poison
    Deals (n < p) Poison Damage per second to your victim and restores (p < m) Health per second to you for (y < z) seconds.
    Creeping Ravage Health
    Potion of Creeping Ravage Health
    Ravage (q > m) Health per second for (z) seconds.
    Creeping Ravage Health Poison
    Deals (n < q) Poison Damage per second for (y < z) seconds.

    Unstoppable
    Potion of Immovability
    Become immune to knockback and disabling effects for (x) seconds.
    Immovability Poison
    Drains Unstoppable from your victim, immobilizing your victim and rendering you immune to control effects for (w < y < x) seconds. This potion will also break you free of ongoing control effects.
    Stun
    Potion of Stun
    Stuns for (x) seconds.
    Stun Poison
    Immobilizes your victim for (w < y < x) seconds.

    Vitality
    Potion of Vitality
    Grants you Major Vitality, increasing your healing taken by 30% for (z) seconds.
    Vitality Poison
    Drains Major Vitality from your victim, reducing their healing taken by 15% while increasing your healing taken by 30% for (y < z) seconds.
    Defile
    Potion of Defile
    Grants you Minor Defile, reducing your healing taken by 15% for (z) seconds.
    Defile Poison
    Inflicts Minor Defile, reducing healing your victim takes by 15% for (y < z) seconds.

    Weapon Crit
    Potion of Weapon Crit
    Grants you Major Savagery which gives you 2191 Weapon Critical Rating for (z) seconds.
    Spell Critical Poison
    Drains Major Savagery from your victim, reducing their Critical Damage by 12% and increasing your Weapon Critical by 2191 for (y < z) seconds.
    Lower Weapon Crit
    Potion of Ravage Weapon Critical
    Applies Minor Enervation to you, reducing your critical damage by 12% for (z) seconds.
    Ravage Weapon Critical Poison
    Applies Minor Enervation to your victim, reducing all Critical Damage by 12% for (y < z) seconds.


    As before, the poisons created from the positive Alchemy traits are way too powerful, rendering the negative trait reagents essentially useless (as they already were). The negative trait poisons need to have an increased duration and/or potency, and the positive trait poisons need to be rendered mostly useless, as you cannot poison someone with a positive trait.

    Alternatively, if you guys at ZOS don't want to render positive trait poisons useless, then please find a way to make negative trait potions useful to some degree, as this discrepancy in usefulness introduces a major imbalance to Alchemy.

    I hope this rundown of Alchemy traits and their effects is useful, and I will endeavour to cover the major updates following the changes in 2.4.1 next week.
    UESP: The Unofficial Elder Scrolls Pages - A collaborative source for all knowledge on the Elder Scrolls series since 1995
    Join us on Discord - discord.gg/uesp
  • ContraTempo
    ContraTempo
    ✭✭✭✭
    I've had my poisoned weapons proc their enchantment (fire) instead of using the poison. This happened just after I logged that character back in. After a couple of battles the poison started working correctly. It happened again later after I have left for a while and then logged that character back in again. I have not been able to get it to do this again since then.
    ContraTempo
    Carpe DM
    Seize the Dungeon Master


  • deleted008293
    deleted008293
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    Perhaps there should be a poison "immunity" system in the game as well...
  • Haulinash
    Haulinash
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    http://tiny.cc/ESOPoisonCrafting

    I'm almost finished this- i just have to add a few definitons. these are only the two mat poison/potion. I mainly did it to have a checklist when its in live so i don't waste so many mats. if noticed that certain mats like columbine (of course) and mudcrab shell give the potions a little extra whump. even with only two mats in the recips. doing each of these will give you the achievements in alchemy.. toxicology and botinist. there's a few redundancies you don't need to get the chiev', but i didn't really think it was necessary to take them out.
    Thank the stars! I wasn't sure I'd find anyone else out here. Please, I ne- STAB! STAB! STABSTABSTABSTABSTAB!
  • me_ming
    me_ming
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    What worries me is that you can use poisons and potions at the same time. lol. Good luck staying alive.
    "We're heroes, my boon companion, and heroes always win! Let that be a lesson to you."
    -Caldwell, "The Final Assault"

    "There is always a choice. But you don't get to choose what is true, you only get to choose what you will do about it..."

    -Abnur Tharn, "God of Schemes"]
  • Jaybe_Mawfaka
    Jaybe_Mawfaka
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Hey guys, wanted to chime in and say we definitely hear the balance concerns for Poison-Making- it’s a big part of why we called out in our known issues that these numbers are in no way final. We’re hearing you, and so here are some of the changes we’re making for the next PTS incremental patch and onward:
    • Increasing poison cooldowns to 10 seconds.
      • This gives us more comfortable balance points for poisons, both versus potential alpha strike scenarios and for stronger considerations for debilitating poison durations.
      • Your stacks of poison will also last much longer.
      • Poisons will also be more noticeably distinct from weapon enchantments, which largely deal in instant effects.
    • Converting all “instant” poison effects into “over-time” poison effects.
      • This gives us a very strong counter to potential alpha strike scenarios and also permits us to “trickle” positive feedback effects from drain poisons, such as the resource returns from Magicka/Stamina drain poisons.
    • Converting all “drain” poisons to convey both a minor debuff and minor buff, not a major buff.
      • A bit of a nice bonus – by doing this, there’s more value in alchemy in that your player abilities or potions will more easily stack with your potential self-buffing poisons.
    • Clarified the tooltips on all “drain” poisons.
      • They don’t actually remove buffs from players. They apply relevant debuffs to your target, and “splash” a relevant buff onto you when they trigger. We’ve clarified the wording to help message this more clearly.
    • Updated the item names, for clarity’s sake.
      • The pattern of differentiation between potions and poisons resulted in most poisons using the same names as potions (with different prefixes and suffixes) in 2.4.0, and despite icon differences and the different naming pattern there was still a lot of potential for confusion, especially in what a poison actually does.
    • There were also some cases where reagents and oils weren’t always dropping as intended, and we fixed those too.

    All of the above items are in place for next week's PTS incremental patch. There are some more changes and updates we’re planning for future PTS patches:
    • Significant changes to poison effect durations and the logic we use to arrive on that.
      • Effectively, we’ll be adjusting the maximum duration certain poisons can last. Poisons granting Unstoppable or Vulnerability for example are lasting significantly longer than intended.
    • Core implementation of “dilution.”
      • This addition will ensure that the more effects there are on a poison, the less time each of those effects will last. Certain very powerful effects may, when diluted, last only an eye blink.
    • Adjustments to how the FX display.
      • In some cases VFX are inadvertently firing continuously as long as the poison is active which is not intended.

    As always, please continue experimenting with the system and providing feedback. We are listening to everything you all have to say about Poison-Making and are actively tuning the system.

    sounds solid for me, gj
  • ContraTempo
    ContraTempo
    ✭✭✭✭
    What concerns me most about poisons is the plan to sell them in the Crown store. I believe this is the first time the Crown store will actually be selling equipment that will do damage to NPCs and (in PVP) other players. That is a line that I truly do not like to see crossed as it is a step toward P2W.

    I am an ESO+ subscriber and I even buy extra crowns sometimes to get some things I want in the Crown store so this is not about me being cheap. I think ZOS should really consider this before going down this path.
    • How strong will Crown store poison be?
    • Can we craft something better?
    • If so, will that only be true for the player who has a master alchemist, or can any alchemist beat what's in the Crown store?
    • If I can always buy stronger poisons in a guild store, why would I pay Crowns?
    Consider these questions and you will see that they give ZOS incentive to sell something better than what can be crafted by the typical player. Something better than the guilds sell. And then we have taken a first step to P2W.
    ContraTempo
    Carpe DM
    Seize the Dungeon Master


  • Denidil
    Denidil
    ✭✭✭
    Oh FFS. So many people in here don't understand the definition of P2W

    If it isn't better than what you can craft for free its not P2W. Period. end of Story. GTFO.
    Edited by Denidil on May 1, 2016 3:25PM
  • ContraTempo
    ContraTempo
    ✭✭✭✭
    Denidil wrote: »
    Oh FFS. So many people in here down understand the definition of P2W

    If it isn't better than what you can craft for free its not P2W. Period. end of Story. GTFO.

    I would say that if it's not better than what is reasonably available in game then it's not P2W.

    Either it's going to be really difficult or impossible to make a poison better than the CS poison, or better poisons will be for sale in every guild store and few people will spend crowns on it. So if ZOS is going to make sales on this they will have to supply a poison worth buying. It's going to be very tempting for them to put an OP poison in the store.

    When they start selling damage for real money it always comes down to a battle of greed vs integrity.

    ContraTempo
    Carpe DM
    Seize the Dungeon Master


  • ContraTempo
    ContraTempo
    ✭✭✭✭
    Hey, is poison suppose to proc when using non-weapon abilities? I was using Silver Shards and sometimes the poison on my daggers would proc. You can see in this video that I start with 22 poisons, then I shoot 3 sets of 2 thralls with Silver Shards. I never use my daggers. On one of the last pair, the poison procs -- you can see the animations. After, I only have 21 poisons remaining.

    I notice that my enchant (fire) never procs when using SS without poisons equipped, so I assume this is wrong.
    Edited by ContraTempo on May 1, 2016 7:08AM
    ContraTempo
    Carpe DM
    Seize the Dungeon Master


  • Vaoh
    Vaoh
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    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ****Questions for PTS testers!

    1) Can multiple poisons from different enemies apply to one character (aka will 1vX become that much tougher)?

    2) Can any poison effects stack on you, causing you to do something ridiculous like spend 10K Magicka to cast a Force Pulse?

    3) Have weapon enchants been increased sufficiently to justify their use over poisons in any situations?

    4) Are poisons purgeable?

    Thank you!
    Edited by Vaoh on May 1, 2016 7:48AM
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