Official Feedback Thread for Poison-Making

Derra

I´ve lost all hope for this game.

We don´t want to add another skillline bc of balance implications.
Hey lets add a poison system with effects of major buff potency because there is no way that is going to have balance implications we can´t forsee...

RinaldoGandolphi

The Snakeblood Alchemy Passive should reduce the duration and effects of these poisons against someone that has 3 skill points in it. Right now this passive doesn't do anything, and this is the perfect time to address any balance concerns with poison.

It doesn't have to be 100%. it can be 50-70% with 3 skill points would be fair.

not everyone in PVP has this passive, but with as powerful as these poisons are, it makes sense there should be some way of countering them, and Snakeblood is already in the game......this of course makes sense because it won't effect PVE at all.

Simply put Snakeblood needs to reduce the duration and effects of these poisons by X% whatever you decide, it needs to have some form of mitigation against them.

Gilliamtherogue

olsborg wrote: »

Poisons are too powerful. You made them too strong. Weapon enchants pale in comparison to some of the stronger poisons. Also, to now be competitive in pvp you will pretty much need to have poison on your weapon, and that means more grind more money to spend on reagents etc, this is too much for casuals to keep up with.

Compare a poison user vs a player who dont use poisons and the poor pennyless pure pvper will have bad odds. This isnt really a path I can agree with. Poisons is exciting, yes, but in the current state on pts they are far too powerful.

Can you provide some mathematical information to back this claim up? At first glance poisons do seem a bit overpowered but when you delve into the actuality of it, they're actually heavily outshined by most enchant combinations.

Enchants have received a MASSIVE boost, some being double or even more than what they are on live. Weapon damage increasing/decreasing enchants have been doubled (348) and now give Spell damage as well, all damage dealing enchants have been increased by an absurd amount (my poison enchant on live is 922, on PTS it is 3022). The Crusher enchant of 967(or something close) reduction is now 1622 and give armor AND spell reduction.

In PvP many of these poisons deal with prolonging a fight, via resource reduction and cost increase. This means players affected by these poisons will struggle casting ultimates or skills, but in turn can apply the same one to their attacker, which would simply prolong the fight as they'd negate eachother. This opens up for more skill based game play as if the TTK increases, fights last longer and the player who assesses their surroundings and situations better wins. Each of these poisons and potions have a counter balance as well, which means for every negative effect there is a countered positive and vice versa. Just as the CP system, each point has a check and balance to ensure you have options to use.

In PvE, at first glance I thought poisons to be stronger, if you simply use a Ravage Health poison, as it deals 3837 poison damage with a listed 1 second ICD. Enchants all have a 6 second ICD, meaning 348 weapon/spell damage that lasts for 5 seconds on a 6 second ICD is a .83333% efficiency, and the poison enchant is 3202 every 6 seconds. Keep in mind that weapon and spell damage gain from amps such as Major and Minor Brutality/Sorcery and other passives, increasing their efficiency further. Flat damage is boosted by CP and crit chance as well.

Breaking down the DPS value of enchants we come to 348+(348x.12)+(348x.25)+(348x X). .12 is the Medium armor passive that gives 12% bonus weapon damage, .25 is the 25% of Major+Minor Brutality, and X is any unique class/race/etc passives. As I do not have any other % gains I will ignore that. After we get that number we apply the .83333% efficiency and get 398 weapon and spell damage. When applied to class coefficients this roughly translates to ~1000-1500 dps ignoring CHD/Crit amps and mob mitigation. Then add on the poison proc in my off hand of 3022 poison damage every 6 seconds and we get 503 dps ignoring crit and mob mitigation. So we're looking at ~1500-2k dps simply from weapon enchants, nothing at all to laugh at. Now to the Ravage Health IX poison, which is 3837 damage on a 1 second cool down. This is merely 3837 dps ignoring crit and mob mitigation. From paper we see that poisons are almost double the efficiency of enchants, HOWEVER, as I have tested on live, poisons do not seem to behaving as their listed ICD states. The proc rate for poisons when dual wielding with light attacks or even weaving abilities with light attacks is extremely inconsistent. Regardless, poisons are definitely not proccing every second, more like every 3 seconds from what I've seen. On top of this, they consume charges at an absurd rate. I had placed ~60-70 poison charges on my dual wield bar and within 5 minutes of testing they had been completely exhausted (may have even run out earlier, I didn't keep an eye on it). Which is even more strange, is that it didn't proc the damage component that many times, so something fishy is going on.

Ignoring all of that information, all of the buffs and debuffs that poisons apply, can be found from other sources in the game. There is no buff or debuff unique to poisons or potions, which means they cannot be inherently overpowered, as they do not provide anything you cannot already have access to. Poisons instead allow for different gear and ability usage, opening up diversity in the game. Overall poisons and new potions will have a MASSIVE AND POSITIVE impact on this game.

Regardless, a TL;DR is that Poisons are definitely not OP. They allow for diversity by filling in gaps or new mechanics, have a check and balance setup within themselves, and have slightly misleading tooltips (they seem stronger than they are, keep in mind that PTS poisons are ignoring the Dilution effect, which REDUCES the value of poisons the more stats that are on them).

glavius

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

Can you provide some mathematical information to back this claim up? At first glance poisons do seem a bit overpowered but when you delve into the actuality of it, they're actually heavily outshined by most enchant combinations.

Enchants have received a MASSIVE boost, some being double or even more than what they are on live. Weapon damage increasing/decreasing enchants have been doubled (348) and now give Spell damage as well, all damage dealing enchants have been increased by an absurd amount (my poison enchant on live is 922, on PTS it is 3022). The Crusher enchant of 967(or something close) reduction is now 1622 and give armor AND spell reduction.

If you think a 348 weap dmg proc (up maybe 5 out of 8-10 seconds) or a 3k dd proc (mitigated by battle spirit) can in any way at all compare to a poison that lets your target take 8% more dmg and gives you 8% more mitigation, you fail at math.

Gilliamtherogue

glavius wrote: »

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

Can you provide some mathematical information to back this claim up? At first glance poisons do seem a bit overpowered but when you delve into the actuality of it, they're actually heavily outshined by most enchant combinations.

Enchants have received a MASSIVE boost, some being double or even more than what they are on live. Weapon damage increasing/decreasing enchants have been doubled (348) and now give Spell damage as well, all damage dealing enchants have been increased by an absurd amount (my poison enchant on live is 922, on PTS it is 3022). The Crusher enchant of 967(or something close) reduction is now 1622 and give armor AND spell reduction.

If you think a 348 weap dmg proc (up maybe 5 out of 8-10 seconds) or a 3k dd proc (mitigated by battle spirit) can in any way at all compare to a poison that lets your target take 8% more dmg and gives you 8% more mitigation, you fail at math.

The thing is, you can get that 8% damage mitigation and 8% vulnerability elsewhere in the game. It's not unique to poisons. Also that 8% isn't truly 8% due to Armor/Spell resist, blocking, and CP. Don't try and come at me when you clearly don't understand calculations in this game.

elium85

@Gilliamtherogue It's Minor Vulnerability right? Where else can you get that?

Gilliamtherogue

elium85 wrote: »

@Gilliamtherogue It's Minor Vulnerability right? Where else can you get that?

Infalliable Aether now carries it as a 3 piece bonus. It works for anyone attacking the target meaning only one player needs to run it for a group to benefit, akin to poisons.

GreenSoup2HoT

Crafting & Economy
Poison-Making

Poison effects are intended to become weaker (diluted) as the number of effects on the potion increases. This behavior is not yet working as intended, so potions with multiple effects are currently much stronger than they should be.

The drain effect on certain poison types is not currently applied correctly.

Certain new reagent and solvents currently drop from monsters and critters more often than intended.

Poison effects currently have no icon in your Active Effects panel.

Poisons currently scale their effects with the level of your equipped weapon, instead of correctly scaling with the poison itself.

Poison tooltips often have inaccurate damage and healing values.

Several poisons currently have names that do not match their effect.

For example, a poison that immobilizes your target may be called a Stun poison.

For anyone who thinks poisons are OP atm.

GreenSoup2HoT

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

elium85 wrote: »

@Gilliamtherogue It's Minor Vulnerability right? Where else can you get that?

Infalliable Aether now carries it as a 3 piece bonus. It works for anyone attacking the target meaning only one player needs to run it for a group to benefit, akin to poisons.

Note that each set has the wrong armour type (medium / light ) which is a bug. I just found the image in another pts thread.

Minor Slayer is not the same as Minor Vulnerability. Minor Vulnerability has never been in game before. Minor Protection is possible from other sources though (dark cloak/negate)

Edit
(Minor Slayer is avalible on the 5th piece bonus of one of the new revamped pve set's) Even though not a PvP friendly set, Minor Vul is possible with this set. Minor Vul is also avalible with the new poisons for pvp.

http://esoacademy.com/buffs-debuffs/

Minor Vulnerability also adds 8% to your tooltip after resist/cp/etc calculations occur. It's last in the formula. I think you already new that though.

Poisons are gonna be very powerful but like the post ive already stated above this one, they are over tuned and working incorrectly in some situations.

My opinion on poisons, they are for ganking. Enchants will be better for sustained fights. It's also very rare to fight someone with the same poison. The burst potential with poison is why they will be better then enchants for ganking. Prolonged Fights is not what you want when you are a poison user (useless something is changed to make them last longer and have comparable charges to enchants). I also believe the proc change is not working as intended. We are still very early in beta here and poisons is a very new system.

You mentioned that poisons are not working that consistent with DW but that could be a bug with off hand weapons all on its own. So many things may be working incorrectly.

Gilliamtherogue

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

elium85 wrote: »

@Gilliamtherogue It's Minor Vulnerability right? Where else can you get that?

Infalliable Aether now carries it as a 3 piece bonus. It works for anyone attacking the target meaning only one player needs to run it for a group to benefit, akin to poisons.

Note that each set has the wrong armour type (medium / light ) which is a bug. I just found the image in another pts thread.

Minor Slayer is not the same as Minor Vulnerability. Minor Vulnerability has never been in game before. Minor Protection is possible with Dark Cloak from Nightblades.

Minor Vulnerability also adds 8% to your tooltip after resist/cp/etc calculations occur. It's last in the formula. I think you already new that though.

Poisons are gonna be very powerful but like the post ive already stated above this one, they are over tuned.

Minor misspeak on my part, it's the 5 piece bonus. Also Infalliable Aether and Vicious Ophidian are swapped on PTS, a known bug.

The 8% is affected by a few sources of damage reduction, if you test it out on live you'll notice your attacks deal slightly less than 8%, the tooltip is assuming true damage but only critters take true damage. Minor Protection is available from many sources in game, Circle of Preservation being the most well known.

I agree though, I never said poisons will be weak. They just aren't as overpowered as people think. Another thing people are overlooking is the fact that poisons on PTS are bugged. The more status ailments/bonuses they get, the weaker each of them becomes. On live, this is NOT happening. Let's say you have a poison that puts Minor Vulnerability on a target, and gives you Minor Protection. The reduction is supposed to apply the gains you receive, so if you stack more than Minor Vulnerability, each source will take a slight loss in efficiency.

glavius

8% is 8%. Regardless of your CP/resists etc, it will remove 8% of the dmg you would have taken normally.
So yes the more mitigation you have, the numerical value will be less. But that works the same for the offence you get from the weapon dmg enchant. The more mitigation the target has, the less numerical value you gain from it.

Gilliamtherogue

glavius wrote: »

8% is 8%. Regardless of your CP/resists etc, it will remove 8% of the dmg you would have taken normally.
So yes the more mitigation you have, the numerical value will be less. But that works the same for the offence you get from the weapon dmg enchant. The more mitigation the target has, the less numerical value you gain from it.

The main issue is that this game suffers from non linear equations, and rounding errors. Game calculations always round down, usually in the .0X place (hundredths) of a % gain. Any damage that has any decimals is ignored until it adds to a whole number. This means that 8% is often seen as 7.9%, sometimes even lower. As FTC is broken at the moment, it is also difficult to see where this fits in the calculation, as it is a new buff. Infalliable Aether's 5 piece and poison now apply this, which I have yet to see any mathematical evidence be posted on with IN GAME testing.

Mix

For players thinking these are too OP; tooltips are likely wrong and the potions aren't yet suffering from dilution which is supposed to make them weaker the more effects you add.

A few points:

1. With Medicinal Use you make 16 poisons at once or 4 potions, this passive needs a tooltip update to reflect how it effects poisons.
2. Poisons have a chance to proc so you will not apply/use a poison on every light attack. There seems to be an animation on the user when the poison procs for the ones I have been testing.
3. Many of the names are misleading->this was mentioned in the patch notes; but I have also found the tooltips are very misleading/confusing in some cases.

Misleading/Confusing Poison Tooltips:

Magicka IX: Drains Magicka from your target, increasing the cost of their Magicka abilities by 30% for 10 seconds and restoring ####Magicka to you. This poison does not seem to drain any magicka from the target.

Stamina IX: same problem as the above, says it Drains Stamina but it does not.

Spell Critical IX: Drains Major Prophecy from your victim, reducing their Weapon and Spell Critical by 2191 and increasing your Spell Critical by 2191 for 10 seconds. Drains weapon and spell crit from target, target loses this regardless if they have the Major Prophecy buff.

Weapon Crit IX, Magitoxin IX, and Weapon Power IX have the same issue as above.

Most confusing part of these tooltips is that where it "Drains Buff Name" does this mean it is supposed to do nothing if the target lacks the buff? Or does it always drain the named stat regardless of buffs on the victim? Does the user always gain the stated Buff or only if the target had it to "steal"? It is hard to tell exactly what these poisons are supposed to do and if there are conditions for them to do so.

There are also inconsistencies in the use of Crit and Critical, Armor and Physcial Resistance used interchangeably, as well Minor Uncertainty (reduction all crit ratings by 2191) to counter Major Prophecy/Major Savagery buffs (+2191 crit rating to spell/weapon). Shouldn't it really be Major Uncertainty?

GreenSoup2HoT

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

elium85 wrote: »

@Gilliamtherogue It's Minor Vulnerability right? Where else can you get that?

Infalliable Aether now carries it as a 3 piece bonus. It works for anyone attacking the target meaning only one player needs to run it for a group to benefit, akin to poisons.

Note that each set has the wrong armour type (medium / light ) which is a bug. I just found the image in another pts thread.

Minor Slayer is not the same as Minor Vulnerability. Minor Vulnerability has never been in game before. Minor Protection is possible with Dark Cloak from Nightblades.

Minor Vulnerability also adds 8% to your tooltip after resist/cp/etc calculations occur. It's last in the formula. I think you already new that though.

Poisons are gonna be very powerful but like the post ive already stated above this one, they are over tuned.

Minor misspeak on my part, it's the 5 piece bonus. Also Infalliable Aether and Vicious Ophidian are swapped on PTS, a known bug.

The 8% is affected by a few sources of damage reduction, if you test it out on live you'll notice your attacks deal slightly less than 8%, the tooltip is assuming true damage but only critters take true damage. Minor Protection is available from many sources in game, Circle of Preservation being the most well known.

I agree though, I never said poisons will be weak. They just aren't as overpowered as people think. Another thing people are overlooking is the fact that poisons on PTS are bugged. The more status ailments/bonuses they get, the weaker each of them becomes. On live, this is NOT happening. Let's say you have a poison that puts Minor Vulnerability on a target, and gives you Minor Protection. The reduction is supposed to apply the gains you receive, so if you stack more than Minor Vulnerability, each source will take a slight loss in efficiency.

Minor Minor Misspeak on my part also for over looking the 5 piece bonus :P One thing to point out, that set is not pvp friendly as it is pve based. The Vulnerability 5 piece bonus is new to that revamped pve set too which is important. As you can see below it does not exsist on the older version.

So this means with the introduction of poison's + this revamped pve set, these are the only 2 sources of this new Minor Vul.

Poisons are definitely not overpowered. They provide an alternative to obtaining certain debuff's/buff's that maybe your class does not have but also a work around instead of using skills to applie certain debuffs/buffs when you can use poisons. This pretty much add's a lot of build diversity.

For my nightblade, it will be great to have a poison that can cause Minor Vul but also Detect. Which would be great when ganking other nightblades instead of using piercing mark alerting your enemy. I'm not sure if this combination is possible becasue poison is still a new system but you see what i mean. Not every class wants to use Lethal Arrow/Reverb to apply Major Defile etc. The diversity poisons create is massive.

Hopefully the proc frequency is increased. I don't really mind the cost of Poisons because i think they should be used sparingly. Not something you duel with or fight AvA all day with. However i wouldn't be apposed to some sort of increased amount created when you craft poison or a system where you can apply the poison and fill it up similar to charges with soul gems.

GreenSoup2HoT

@Mix

1. With Medicinal Use you make 16 poisons at once or 4 potions, this passive needs a tooltip update to reflect how it effects poisons.

This is great new's! 16 poisons is defiantly better then 4 poisons.

The ratio needs to reflect the up time on potions though. If i proc say a ravage health poison on someone X times within 1 cool-down of a potion, the ratio should be X-1 or X:4 when creating poisons vs potions. This would make the cost of potions vs poisons more consistent. I say this because i think you could proc way more then 4 poisons in the time it takes for 1 potion to go off cooldown. I may be wrong though, 4:1 may be fine.

There are some poisons with a duration but they are often being refreshed if proc'd again within their duration. So i don't think this ratio between potions and poisons should revolve around that.

2. Poisons have a chance to proc so you will not apply/use a poison on every light attack. There seems to be an animation on the user when the poison procs for the ones I have been testing.

Just a question. Is there any increase to proc chance when using a poison from stealth? Stealth with a Heavy attack? I understand why poisons should have a lower proc rate (most likely to prevent players from burning through charges) but it would be nice if there was some ways to guarantee a proc similar to enchants.

hrothbern

I did some brewing looking for interesting (solo) Tank Potions and Poisons and found the following Recipes:

A Poison:


A quick response Potion:


A long duration buff Potion:

GreenSoup2HoT

@hrothbern

Great information! If you could post a ton more combo's of potions and poisons that would be great. Just place them in Spoilers so it does not take up too much space.

Gilliamtherogue

glavius wrote: »

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

Can you provide some mathematical information to back this claim up? At first glance poisons do seem a bit overpowered but when you delve into the actuality of it, they're actually heavily outshined by most enchant combinations.

Enchants have received a MASSIVE boost, some being double or even more than what they are on live. Weapon damage increasing/decreasing enchants have been doubled (348) and now give Spell damage as well, all damage dealing enchants have been increased by an absurd amount (my poison enchant on live is 922, on PTS it is 3022). The Crusher enchant of 967(or something close) reduction is now 1622 and give armor AND spell reduction.

If you think a 348 weap dmg proc (up maybe 5 out of 8-10 seconds) or a 3k dd proc (mitigated by battle spirit) can in any way at all compare to a poison that lets your target take 8% more dmg and gives you 8% more mitigation, you fail at math.

Some simple math since you seem to not understand.

I broke down the DPS value of 348 wep damage and 3k poison in my original post, comes out to roughly 2k dps. 8% bonus damage scales based on your overall DPS. In PvE most end game builds pull ~30k single target dps. 30,000 x .08 = 2400 dps. 400 more than an enchant, and that's without factoring in CHD/crit/% amps on the enchants. 8% is a flat rate and will always be equal to or less than 8% dps. Not only that, but if you aren't in a min maxed DPS build, % amps are going to have much less of a gain for you. 8% bonus damage on a player means they die 8% faster, assuming it takes 20 seconds to kill a player, that's less than 2 seconds of saved time. Meanwhile dealing 1.5k poison damage and gaining ~350 weapon/spell damage for your skill coefficients (which are then cut in half since battle spirit) comes to about 600 added dps from the weapon and spell and 1.5k/6. Most players run ~ 23k health in Cyrodiil, some even less. An extra spike of 1500 (non crit) damage and that added umpf to your spells is easily close to if not more than what you'd gain from 8% damage.

The weapon damage enchant is also up 5 out of 6 seconds if you are properly playing, maybe 5/8 if you're not keeping up the offensive. Regardless, poisons aren't that much stronger, if at all, to enchants. It all depends on the circumstances of the fight and players involved.

I really wish players would spend the time to break down and analyse before they just jump the gun on calling something OP.

silky_soft

exiledtyrant wrote: »

The stealth detection poisons may be a bit overkill. With all the new ways to reveal stealth I'm not sure a 10 second duration stealth reveal that also increase cloak cost by 30% is fair.

Wtf haha there better be a no shield poison or a stamina cleanse incoming.

Panth141

@Gilliamtherogue have you done any testing of the ravage health poisons on players with shields?

Gilliamtherogue

Panth141 wrote: »

@Gilliamtherogue have you done any testing of the ravage health poisons on players with shields?

I have not, without FTC is is really hard to gather information, so I wouldn't be able to see which damage source was being absorbed and which wasn't. FTC records damage dealt to shields as the shield itself in the parse breakdown, so I'd be able to see the exact value, number of hits, and so on if it was working.

vanzan

olsborg wrote: »

Poisons are too powerful. You made them too strong. Weapon enchants pale in comparison to some of the stronger poisons. Also, to now be competitive in pvp you will pretty much need to have poison on your weapon, and that means more grind more money to spend on reagents etc, this is too much for casuals to keep up with.

Compare a poison user vs a player who dont use poisons and the poor pennyless pure pvper will have bad odds. This isnt really a path I can agree with. Poisons is exciting, yes, but in the current state on pts they are far too powerful.

I can resonate with this post with regards to the average pvp player (which forms the majority) and the recent changes brought by ZOS to balance the game by removal of vet, capping cp points etc..What we don't want is having people with more consumables or more gold available to them and that being the difference in winning a fight (remember the whole skill argument?), next thing people will want a no poison campaign

Just asking for developers to have some consideration for PVP and for others in PTS to see if it can be too one sided for those organised groups who min max with poison pots.

Regards.

Farorin

Yes! This looks amazing! I can't wait to try it out!

leepalmer95

hmm dmg increase or force your enemy to have 30% increased resource cost, increase the cost of their ult, take their major sorcery etc.. away

I'd use the poisons 100%.

RDMyers65b14_ESO

This may sound silly but looking at my inventory, it is difficult at a quick glance to distinguish between potions and poisons. Could you make them look a bit more different. Maybe have potions leaning left and poisons leaning right or something like that or a different color to the name. Just something to make things easier to distinguish them.

Other than that, I love poison making.

Amdar_Godkiller

But can poisons crit, and if so can you poison yourself? I really want to pair the fury set with clever alchemist!

silky_soft

vanzan wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Poisons are too powerful. You made them too strong. Weapon enchants pale in comparison to some of the stronger poisons. Also, to now be competitive in pvp you will pretty much need to have poison on your weapon, and that means more grind more money to spend on reagents etc, this is too much for casuals to keep up with.

Compare a poison user vs a player who dont use poisons and the poor pennyless pure pvper will have bad odds. This isnt really a path I can agree with. Poisons is exciting, yes, but in the current state on pts they are far too powerful.

I can resonate with this post with regards to the average pvp player (which forms the majority) and the recent changes brought by ZOS to balance the game by removal of vet, capping cp points etc..What we don't want is having people with more consumables or more gold available to them and that being the difference in winning a fight (remember the whole skill argument?), next thing people will want a no poison campaign

Just asking for developers to have some consideration for PVP and for others in PTS to see if it can be too one sided for those organised groups who min max with poison pots.

Regards.

Exactly it's pay to win. Unlike pots with a 45s cool down. And especially if these are in the Crown store.

staracino_ESO

Meh. Pay to win is when you involve real money. That would be like saying pvp is pay to win because you have to buy siege to bring down walls.

DaveMoeDee

umagon wrote: »

I was able to find some alkahest and made one poison. Also found some beetle scuttle. The equipping them could use a hot key, some poisons I saw on vendors would be nice for one or two attacks but then I would want to use my normal weapon enchantment. Going back into the inventory to change them out or turn them off is cumbersome.

Maybe add a poison belt slots or something where you can hot key 4 or so poisons. So when you press the button it equips on the weapons you are using then if you press it again it turns the poison application off.

How would that work with a gamepad?

Xsorus

If you want some fun....Try Torugs Pact + Infused on your weapon now...