Official Feedback Thread for Poison-Making

Khaos_Bane

I suck at PvP so this will be an equalizer for me !

STEVIL

leepalmer95 wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

RoamingRiverElk wrote: »

With no "poison break" the same way as we get CC break, it does not matter whether one person gets the cooldown for ten seconds and can't apply another poison during that time. The victim of the poison does NOT get any relief from poisons coming from other people. And that's the crucial part.

Just even consider having to use purge multiple times within ten seconds with cost increase. Purge only removes two effects, if you're marked (places THREE effects on you), have velocious curse on you and a couple of poisons, all you'll be doing is purging. And that's not cheap. While you also aren't using other skills instead of that purging. But hey, numbers are supposed to matter so whatever...

Exactly and since poisons proc 100% of the time this is eas.... wait.... no they proc only 20%?

purge removes 2 every time.

You seem to think poisons will exceed that...k

that means by elementary school math we have about 5 attackers on one guy hitting every time to get an average of three effects (attackers must have different effects or some procs will be wasted so not always getting sta red)

How long do you normally expect to stand against 5 hitting constantly?

Seems lucky they aren't just burning you down with attacks boosted by 3-4x powered enchants and 2-4 sec cooldowns for those.

Sky is definitely falling... no wait that may just be sunset.

Poisons can have more than 1 effect, your'll likely be snared as everything has a snare, there so many effects that you'll have to purge at least twice before you'll actually purge the poison, like someone said if your marked thats 3 effects, lotus fan is a dot + snare. Fear is a snare + minor maim etc... you get the picture.

Poisons are going to be stupidly strong.

Math is not evefyones strength but i used three effect poisons as the base for my 5 attackers yielding 3 net effects.

But the point was your assuming poison is going to be the only affect. Purge can only remove up to 2 affects at a time. Your ignoring other effects that purge will remove, this is snares, minor main, defile, burning, freezing, paralysis , any dots from the numerous sources in the game.

With 5 people you can easily assume they'll at least have 1 affect they'll naturally cause in there rotation. A lotus fan will snare + put a dot on you, if they manage to poison you then you will have to purge 3 times to get rid of all the affects.

Crit charge with a maelstrom 2h axe will put 2x dots on you. If your feared you will have minor maim + snare on you.

What i was saying, if you actually read it, was that to even purge 1 poison on you you'll have to purge the other effects on you first.

If someone gets a 60% increase cost on you as well as a root, your dead. By the time you get through the numerous other effects to actually get rid of the poison. E.g. The snare your 99% likely going to have, the numerous dots etc... you would of used purge at least 3 times. Purge isn't cheap, especially with a 60% increase cost.

I'd appreciate it if you actually read and understood it this time instead of trying to be sarcastic and failing at basic elementary spelling at the same time.

Reading comprehension isn't for everyone.

So now tho your char is getting dead bc five chars are doing lotsa things, poisons just being a piece of the whole so maybe its the 5 not the poison that is the problem.

Yes, 5 on one, the 5 can put more effects against you than you can purge but the 20% proc poison is not the big culprit in that area. The 100% other effects from abilities are.
If i am wanting to overwhelm the purge, 20% chance to apply three effects per attack from poison is WORSE than 100% chance per ability that applies an effect. (That pesky math again.)

And btw if someone gets a 60% increase and root on you, you are alive... since neither of those cause damage.

STEVIL

artal wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

Exactly and since poisons proc 100% of the time this is eas.... wait.... no they proc only 20%?

purge removes 2 every time.

You seem to think poisons will exceed that...k

that means by elementary school math we have about 5 attackers on one guy hitting every time to get an average of three effects (attackers must have different effects or some procs will be wasted so not always getting sta red)

How long do you normally expect to stand against 5 hitting constantly?

Seems lucky they aren't just burning you down with attacks boosted by 3-4x powered enchants and 2-4 sec cooldowns for those.

Sky is definitely falling... no wait that may just be sunset.

I guess you are not solo player. Please tell me how can I afford to slot purge on my stam dk or tanky stamblade? And even if i do i can have so many other effects on me that i will need to cast it few times to purge poisons that will be applied again after that.
And btw i quite often stand vs 5. sometimes i kill one or few but often i win or make some of them run. Now i can see myself being rooted and drained instantly.

I dont hate people that play in large group, but please don't defend this non skill nonsense.

What is it with you folks fantasizing about me?
Is it the Axe body spray making you want to sit back and daydream about who I am or what I do or maybe who knows what else?

The doomsayers were all over how poisons put too many effects and purge wont keep up.
I am merely pointing out the applied effects chance for poison is LESS THAN the rate at which most abilities that apply effects do so now.

If they can reliably overwhelm you with effects with poisons, they can do so without poisons if they wish.

Your math may vary..

BenevolentBowd

BenevolentBowd wrote: »

I've re-run through all 30 traits for 2.4.1 and updated my blog with the new durations and poison names.
http://benevolentbowd.ca/esotu/esotu-poison-making-for-the-savvy-assassin/

Guide updated for 2.4.4.

Enodoc

BenevolentBowd wrote: »

BenevolentBowd wrote: »

I've re-run through all 30 traits for 2.4.1 and updated my blog with the new durations and poison names.
http://benevolentbowd.ca/esotu/esotu-poison-making-for-the-savvy-assassin/

Guide updated for 2.4.4.

Nice one, thanks! Even with the correct durations, the drain potions still seem to be much the better option. Poison making should have brought some life back into alchemy by making all the reagents useful; instead, it's just exacerbated the gap between the useful reagents and the not-so-useful ones, by making positive traits even more valuable.

Lava_Croft

Enodoc wrote: »

BenevolentBowd wrote: »

BenevolentBowd wrote: »

I've re-run through all 30 traits for 2.4.1 and updated my blog with the new durations and poison names.
http://benevolentbowd.ca/esotu/esotu-poison-making-for-the-savvy-assassin/

Guide updated for 2.4.4.

Nice one, thanks! Even with the correct durations, the drain potions still seem to be much the better option. Poison making should have brought some life back into alchemy by making all the reagents useful; instead, it's just exacerbated the gap between the useful reagents and the not-so-useful ones, by making positive traits even more valuable.

And this cannot be said enough.

staracino_ESO

Best scenario: The 'drain' poisons effects get changed to apply a positive effect to the target, making them a detriment to the brewer/user.

Acceptable change: The 'drain' poison effects all have a duration of .5 seconds, thus making them worthless, but not a detriment to the user/brewer.

Not good: Keeping them as is, making poison effects that are not only lore-breaking by allowing a toxin to somehow physically effect the poisoner, but also keep over half of the reagents useless as they have been for 2 years.

You guys have made several changes to preserve lore and immersion, please do so here.

Robbmrp

If ZOS wanted poisons to affect more than one person, they could add in a new debuff called "Contagious". This debuff would jump to x number of players within x meters. If they add something like this they should make it replace one of the other effects on the poison. This would help break up those zerg ball groups as one person getting poisoned would infect the whole group.

STEVIL

staracino_ESO wrote: »

Best scenario: The 'drain' poisons effects get changed to apply a positive effect to the target, making them a detriment to the brewer/user.

Acceptable change: The 'drain' poison effects all have a duration of .5 seconds, thus making them worthless, but not a detriment to the user/brewer.

Not good: Keeping them as is, making poison effects that are not only lore-breaking by allowing a toxin to somehow physically effect the poisoner, but also keep over half of the reagents useless as they have been for 2 years.

You guys have made several changes to preserve lore and immersion, please do so here.

They have said these poisons are not just toxins but, like potions created from the same or similar ingredients under the same skill, magical.

I can put a glyph on my bow or sword or staff that applies damage to enemy and buff/restore to me using m-a-g-i-c... so why not an oil made from magical processes?

I dont see the lore break... sorry.

Is this an immersion beard thing or were you also up in arms about t&ose dual enchants back in beta?

staracino_ESO

STEVIL wrote: »

staracino_ESO wrote: »

Best scenario: The 'drain' poisons effects get changed to apply a positive effect to the target, making them a detriment to the brewer/user.

Acceptable change: The 'drain' poison effects all have a duration of .5 seconds, thus making them worthless, but not a detriment to the user/brewer.

Not good: Keeping them as is, making poison effects that are not only lore-breaking by allowing a toxin to somehow physically effect the poisoner, but also keep over half of the reagents useless as they have been for 2 years.

You guys have made several changes to preserve lore and immersion, please do so here.

They have said these poisons are not just toxins but, like potions created from the same or similar ingredients under the same skill, magical.

I can put a glyph on my bow or sword or staff that applies damage to enemy and buff/restore to me using m-a-g-i-c... so why not an oil made from magical processes?

I dont see the lore break... sorry.

Is this an immersion beard thing or were you also up in arms about t&ose dual enchants back in beta?

Enchantments are made from runes, which have completely different properties from alchemy reagents. At their core, enchantments are lesser versions of spells that can be applied to equipment. Spells that drain attributes are well established in TES lore. Also, the weapon with the glyph on it is still in your hands, and this is where the restores come from. The enchanted weapon is casting a spell when it hits, and you are the beneficiary of that spell.

Alchemy, on the other hand,consists of mundane concoctions made from mundane ingredients. Basically, it is chemistry. If potions and poisons were indeed magical, they would not grant any effects when used inside of a magic suppression field (sorc ult). Poisons in other TES games: Where are the drain poisons that benefit you as they sap your target? Just because the developers said something does not mean they understand their own lore properly. They slipped up here.

Also, calling names and trying to dismiss someone because they enjoy the lore is a bad choice. The developers historically side with preserving lore over preserving traditional MMO tropes if they have to make a choice.

STEVIL

staracino_ESO wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

staracino_ESO wrote: »

Best scenario: The 'drain' poisons effects get changed to apply a positive effect to the target, making them a detriment to the brewer/user.

Acceptable change: The 'drain' poison effects all have a duration of .5 seconds, thus making them worthless, but not a detriment to the user/brewer.

Not good: Keeping them as is, making poison effects that are not only lore-breaking by allowing a toxin to somehow physically effect the poisoner, but also keep over half of the reagents useless as they have been for 2 years.

You guys have made several changes to preserve lore and immersion, please do so here.

They have said these poisons are not just toxins but, like potions created from the same or similar ingredients under the same skill, magical.

I can put a glyph on my bow or sword or staff that applies damage to enemy and buff/restore to me using m-a-g-i-c... so why not an oil made from magical processes?

I dont see the lore break... sorry.

Is this an immersion beard thing or were you also up in arms about t&ose dual enchants back in beta?

Enchantments are made from runes, which have completely different properties from alchemy reagents. At their core, enchantments are lesser versions of spells that can be applied to equipment. Spells that drain attributes are well established in TES lore. Also, the weapon with the glyph on it is still in your hands, and this is where the restores come from. The enchanted weapon is casting a spell when it hits, and you are the beneficiary of that spell.

Alchemy, on the other hand,consists of mundane concoctions made from mundane ingredients. Basically, it is chemistry. If potions and poisons were indeed magical, they would not grant any effects when used inside of a magic suppression field (sorc ult). Poisons in other TES games: Where are the drain poisons that benefit you as they sap your target? Just because the developers said something does not mean they understand their own lore properly. They slipped up here.

Also, calling names and trying to dismiss someone because they enjoy the lore is a bad choice. The developers historically side with preserving lore over preserving traditional MMO tropes if they have to make a choice.

Wait... on your odd little suppression thing, i BELIEVE quite strongly that the sorc ulti does NOT shut down weapon or armor enchanrs which you admit are magical. So how can you in the same post use that as a supporting argument for poisons and potions being mundane? Is it your contention that enchants ARE shut down by the sorc ulti?

I get that you have an idea that poisons and potions are chemistry and not magical but i dont come in with that faith/bias so i dont necessarily see a reason to take that leap of faith without some empirical evidence.

As for in hand, well a poison can apply from every wespon an enchant can so any function OF THE WEAPON argument seems DOA. Your oiled blade continues to do its thing until exhausted just like the enchanted one does until its juice is expired.

What name did i call you? What insult did i throw at you? When did i dismiss you for liking lore?

You really serm to be throwing a lot of things out there at once butni dont see the grounding or support unless you are right and sorc ulti negates enchantments in the game.

Dubhliam

I know this is a bit "off" the current discussion but:

How come wasps did not get a new reagent?

All the other insects got a new reagent: butterfly, fleshflies and torchbugs.
And I find fleshflies really hard to find, unlike wasps.

Just one more of those little inconsistencies that plague ESO.

STEVIL

Dubhliam wrote: »

I know this is a bit "off" the current discussion but:

How come wasps did not get a new reagent?

All the other insects got a new reagent: butterfly, fleshflies and torchbugs.
And I find fleshflies really hard to find, unlike wasps.

Just one more of those little inconsistencies that plague ESO.

i find fleshflies really in the way a lot... usually when trying to loot something i just killed

staracino_ESO

http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Ingredients
http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Ingredients
http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Ingredients

You are welcome to peruse these lists and find me an alchemy reagent that can brew a poison that will take something from the target and give it to the user. (Note: When the Morrowind reagents say 'drain; they mean 'lower,' as can be seen here: http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Drain_Attribute .)

Fact is, alchemy reagents simply do not work this way. I have no clue why they suddenly changed them to function like this.

STEVIL

staracino_ESO wrote: »

http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Ingredients
http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Ingredients
http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Ingredients

You are welcome to peruse these lists and find me an alchemy reagent that can brew a poison that will take something from the target and give it to the user. (Note: When the Morrowind reagents say 'drain; they mean 'lower,' as can be seen here: http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Drain_Attribute .)

Fact is, alchemy reagents simply do not work this way. I have no clue why they suddenly changed them to function like this.

Hey, just a question... am i to understand that in order to satisfy your degree of ADHERENCE TO LORE they have to mot only not contradict prior establish lists from other time period but also match specific game mechanics and not add new mechanics that did not exist?

WOW... so when this game added boosted costs for dodge roll and streak - did that match previous established mechanics in those other games - all of them - the same?

or were you railing about that mechanic being lore breaking to????

How far does your adherence insistance to lore go?

keep pluggin'

Your "poisons not magic and enchants are bc of how negate works blew up but i am sure you will find something objective to help you find lore busting aspects all thru the game based on thisd one... if you also check lore for game effect you like, that is, as opposed to just ones you dont.

Did those games have a set called vicious death that did what this one does?

point me to the thread where you went after them for that bit of lore violation if it did not. please, would be fun to see if this is about lore or about "me no wantum poison so..."

However, i believe one of the reasons ESO is set where it is to to allow them some smidgen of freedom to add stuff that works maybe slightly differently from the other timelines.

Could be wrong.

But then again, no Star trek movie ever satisfied every lore devotee either and they make lotsa money and have many fans.

I even hear some Marvel movies may not have exactly matched every comic ever published... dismal failure those. They even had poison in at least one.

OUTRAGE!!!!!!!!!!!

Seriously tho... the thing drops in four days with **magical potions and poisons**, less actually, so I hope the lore devastation you must be suffering when they add characters with names that did not exist in other editions hits your desktop/console.

Enjoy...

and the Sun Will Come Up Wednesday in spite of this. Really, seriously, it will.

Teridaxus

So...now the masses got acces to kena + 60% poison cost increase + global cost increase

Rip the forums

staracino_ESO

I posted only those links because that is all I needed to prove my point. The negate comment was more of a nod to how potions do not function in DnD when you are silenced. Obviously that was a poor choice since negate doesn't function properly, either; and you have chosen to fixate on that one particular point. There are quite a few things in-game that I would prefer work differently, but right now poisons are up on the PTS and open for change, so that is where I am lobbying.

If you don't believe lore is enough reason, then I will simply say that drain poisons are too powerful as is and do not promote a healthy balance in the game. They are (purposely?) overtuned to serve as a shiny new thing to attract/retain players.

That is all I will say. You seem to be either spoiling for arguments or lacking a grasp of what I am actually discussing here (your tone is pretty evident, whether it is intentional or not). Either way, don't expect me to respond to anything else you try to argue. The general consensus seems to be that drain poisons are not the right direction, anyways.

STEVIL

My belief is poison will come out, enchants will go up, world will not end and after a bit of adapting to new paradigm the same folks will be making the same grief the next time zos changes the meta in orfer to "save the less active players", "preserve the lore" and a host of other heart felt reasons that aren't "it kills my current minmax top doggery" at all.

Meanwhile, tweaks and adjustments and bug fixes will be applied.

But anyone thinking posts the weekend before launch are going to change anything in the launch significantly is... overly optimistic.

As for my tone, meh. I think its much more measured and reasonable than more than half of the poison threads given the overt rage, outrageous claims and such.

Coming close to three days to launch... yay!!!

Aaru

Enodoc wrote: »

I still don't agree with "draining" though. There is no logical reason for a poison to transfer anything back to the attacker and result in a buff.

"Drain" has been used in spells throughout the Elder Scrolls series. Not surprising to see it here.

Enodoc

Aaru wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

I still don't agree with "draining" though. There is no logical reason for a poison to transfer anything back to the attacker and result in a buff.

"Drain" has been used in spells throughout the Elder Scrolls series. Not surprising to see it here.

It's a completely different effect using the same name. Drain has never transferred anything to the caster in any of its previous incarnations; the established magical effect called "Drain" temporarily lowers the target's relevant attribute, which is automatically restored at the end of the effect or when dispelled. That "Drain" effect can be applied to a poison. Comparatively, the established magical effect called "Absorb" (which is what ESO's Drain poisons are doing) transfers the target's attribute to the caster. The "Absorb" effect cannot be applied to a poison.

kdb554

*Were you able to successfully and easily find the reagents required for poisons?
-Yes and no. A few of them were easier, and a few of them took much longer to find, either because those items weren't dropping whether expected or not, or for some reason the source didn't exist at the time.
*Did you make any poisons? How did that experience feel overall?
-Yes, And overall I liked it.
*If you used poisons, did it feel satisfying?
-Somewhat, the short poison duration when applied, on top of having a small chance to hit, made enchantments being the competition, more desirable. Felt, additive. Especially longer poison durations, or a higher chance to hit, or being able to enhance the potency, would weigh poison making down and feel more strategic.
*When an active weapon is out of charge and poison (or just broken), you’ll see an indicator appear.
*Did you find the iconography to be clear and noticeable?
-Not immediately, but yes.
*Are there any other indicators that you feel would be helpful?
-Maybe. If there were a set of optionable indicators that directly showed you how many applications there are active, since they could be cured or resisted, like a green rain drop or two, I think that would be a fun interface for people who want to use poisons more competitively and in a relax way too. PvP and PvE would be served the same value of it.
*Do you have any other general feedback?
-What would really be neat, is if we had the in-game library maybe touched up to include a more path finding friendly experience like a 'guides' section just for poisons and poison making. I could have skipped a few things, but last time i searched it I thought there were multiple and merge-able sections that could harbor a poison making book, or any book at that.