Official Feedback Thread for Poison-Making

staracino_ESO

ContraTempo wrote: »

Denidil wrote: »

Oh FFS. So many people in here down understand the definition of P2W

If it isn't better than what you can craft for free its not P2W. Period. end of Story. GTFO.

I would say that if it's not better than what is reasonably available in game then it's not P2W.

Either it's going to be really difficult or impossible to make a poison better than the CS poison, or better poisons will be for sale in every guild store and few people will spend crowns on it. So if ZOS is going to make sales on this they will have to supply a poison worth buying. It's going to be very tempting for them to put an OP poison in the store.

When they start selling damage for real money it always comes down to a battle of greed vs integrity.

Also, I think they have said that Oils are dropping more often than intended. So if they 'fix' them to make farming them a nightmare, the Crown option may start looking good. I will never buy them, though, since I enjoy farming.

Helluin

• Draining effect should be removed; the effects should be just on target.
• It's fine that we have to equip poisons, but they should have more charges.
• Argonian Resistance and Bosmer's Resist Affliction could give some defense against poisons.
• Snakeblood in Alchemy is still not really appealing; it could give some resistance to the effects of poisons.

STEVIL

Doncellius wrote: »

****Questions for PTS testers!

1) Can multiple poisons from different enemies apply to one character (aka will 1vX become that much tougher)?

2) Can any poison effects stack on you, causing you to do something ridiculous like spend 10K Magicka to cast a Force Pulse?

3) Have weapon enchants been increased sufficiently to justify their use over poisons in any situations?

4) Are poisons purgeable?

Thank you!

My responses such as they are...

1 and 2 the nan-named effects such as damage should stack just like the damage and effects from enchants do. Looks like the 30% ult cost for instance is named cowatdice so it would not stack. But its possible that just like enchants, damage may stack.

Dont recall off-hand but there are wespon enchsnts that lower enemy damage and i dont know for sure but if three folks whack you with those do they stack?

3 thats what playtest is to determine, not just the devs though the final decision is theirs. Its day 6 so likely not yet known.

MY POV...

While called "poisons" these are much more magical in nature and frankly a full bore cross between alchemy and enchanting.

The higher enchant values can mske 1 vs many tougher to survive as well as simply changing existing meta structures. This will too.

Its basically a designer-enchantment that burns out its charges. Like enchants, it can provide bonus effects or buffs to you as well as harmful effects to targets. So the "shouldnt buff" complaint doesnt register with me.

It will take good playtest to work out the values, likely be tweaked over time after release like evrrything else is and add a very large "new uncertainty" to combat that i like. Overall, poisons and enchants being more significant and impactful means a lot more on thr fly maleability. If the enchants for absorb stamina or raise weapon damage were significant that would make for mucj more dynamic play.

GRYM.LOCKE

Bel_Shezzar wrote: »

Hey guys, wanted to chime in and say we definitely hear the balance concerns for Poison-Making- it’s a big part of why we called out in our known issues that these numbers are in no way final. We’re hearing you, and so here are some of the changes we’re making for the next PTS incremental patch and onward:

• Increasing poison cooldowns to 10 seconds.
  As always, please continue experimenting with the system and providing feedback. We are listening to everything you all have to say about Poison-Making and are actively tuning the system.

why is it PVP Cry's like babies and then PVE suffers..

going from 1 second to 10 seconds..... in PVE environment seems quite drastic

Maybe you should rename this game from ESOTU TO ESOPVP?

more and more people *** about PVP and PVE suffers hate American hosters.......

sigh..........

Jsmalls

Sharee wrote: »

Hmmm...

I'm drooling, what poison is made from Columbine, Namira Rot and blessed thistle.

staracino_ESO

staracino_ESO wrote: »

The 'drain' effects from positive traits makes no sense. Also, this is going to make the most desirable reagents the same ones that are already desirable, and the rest will continue being unused because they 'only' deal damage without buffing the poisoner. I do not know what the plans for dilution are, but anything that is a drain needs its effects to be cut in half, even before dilution.

How is a poison that is in the blood stream returning stuff to the poisoner, anyways?

@Bel_Shezzar
OK so you have your first round of changes going into the next incremental, and they look fairly decent. However, I must reference my earlier post since this has not been addressed yet. Having the same reagents, that already give us the best potions also give us the best poisons, does nothing to make the widely unused reagents more viable.

Ultimately, I would prefer that the 'drains' be removed, since they make zero sense, but if they must stay, at the very least invert every poison effect from its potion effect. This way the "Ravage Health" poison would be the drain, and the "Restore Health" poison would only do damage. That would be a terrible band-aid fix, but at least it would be better than what we have currently.

Alternatively, why not have poisons with "restore health" effect restore health? One of the challenges of potion-making is avoiding the negative effects, so why do poisons have NO undesirable effects? Currently, the simple poisons that do not drain are the undesirable effects, which is a red flag that the system is over-performing. I know this could open the door for potential cross-faction griefing, but that would be difficult to pull off, and much more preferable to a ridiculously over-tuned drain poison system.

It is very important that this system launches in a good state; so please consider all of this feedback before finalizing the poison system.

Denidil

ContraTempo wrote: »

Denidil wrote: »

Oh FFS. So many people in here down understand the definition of P2W

If it isn't better than what you can craft for free its not P2W. Period. end of Story. GTFO.

I would say that if it's not better than what is reasonably available in game then it's not P2W.

Either it's going to be really difficult or impossible to make a poison better than the CS poison, or better poisons will be for sale in every guild store and few people will spend crowns on it. So if ZOS is going to make sales on this they will have to supply a poison worth buying. It's going to be very tempting for them to put an OP poison in the store.

When they start selling damage for real money it always comes down to a battle of greed vs integrity.

This isn't true of the crown store tripot so far as I known, so your logic is flawed.

potirondb16_ESO

I do hope poison isn't going to make it Inside pvp, there's already a lot of whinning about burst build that will create issue with a lot of class that are already on the low scale of pve dps, if poison comes into pvp this would oblige massive compromise which those class can't handle.

capricorn152245ub17_ESO

jyates214b14_ESO wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Hmmm...

I'm drooling, what poison is made from Columbine, Namira Rot and blessed thistle.

[img]http://files.enjin.com/901288/Isbjorns Files/poison.jpg[/img]

aLi3nZ

As a Magika player who uses duel weild swords that are never actually used. I hate these poisons. Imagine trying to 1vsX now with 4+enemy player getting their poison procs on you.

Seems lame, would have been cool to leave poisens pve only. I guess I will be forced to try use em like everyone else in orfder to be competitive

STEVIL

aLi3nZ wrote: »

As a Magika player who uses duel weild swords that are never actually used. I hate these poisons. Imagine trying to 1vsX now with 4+enemy player getting their poison procs on you.

Seems lame, would have been cool to leave poisens pve only. I guess I will be forced to try use em like everyone else in orfder to be competitive

Yes things change in a living mmo. I imagine the hesvy boosts to enchants also hurt the one vs many contest.

Of course, some might call making one vs many harder is not a bad direction.

Vaoh

STEVIL wrote: »

aLi3nZ wrote: »

As a Magika player who uses duel weild swords that are never actually used. I hate these poisons. Imagine trying to 1vsX now with 4+enemy player getting their poison procs on you.

Seems lame, would have been cool to leave poisens pve only. I guess I will be forced to try use em like everyone else in orfder to be competitive

Yes things change in a living mmo. I imagine the hesvy boosts to enchants also hurt the one vs many contest.

Of course, some might call making one vs many harder is not a bad direction.

Going up against more than 1 player in a fair, upfront fight is called being outnumbered. You are already dealing with enough from the enemy having the ability to put out 2x damage, 2x heals, better survivability, etc. Your task as a 1vXer aka solo player is already tough. Poisons should be toned down, as they are straight up WAY too powerful right now.

It's much more of a contest between "do you have the Gold to afford expensive OP poisons 24/7 or not".

Those who say 1vX needs to be more difficulty are zergers who are angry that a select few players won't allow themselves to be facerolled.

GreenSoup2HoT

Sirvandal wrote: »

The end of PvP....

It's more like the end of dueling. This is because people will just slot different poisons depending on their opponent just like people slotted shield breaker against a Sorc.

In AvA its not really that big of deal. Poisons will also be pretty expensive to use so i bet that gankers will be the only ones using them often.

I can't wait to get poison's going though. I've been a Master Alchemist since forever. I have 100's of every plant. I'm going to have some fun!

STEVIL

Doncellius wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

aLi3nZ wrote: »

As a Magika player who uses duel weild swords that are never actually used. I hate these poisons. Imagine trying to 1vsX now with 4+enemy player getting their poison procs on you.

Seems lame, would have been cool to leave poisens pve only. I guess I will be forced to try use em like everyone else in orfder to be competitive

Yes things change in a living mmo. I imagine the hesvy boosts to enchants also hurt the one vs many contest.

Of course, some might call making one vs many harder is not a bad direction.

Going up against more than 1 player in a fair, upfront fight is called being outnumbered. You are already dealing with enough from the enemy having the ability to put out 2x damage, 2x heals, better survivability, etc. Your task as a 1vXer aka solo player is already tough. Poisons should be toned down, as they are straight up WAY too powerful right now.

It's much more of a contest between "do you have the Gold to afford expensive OP poisons 24/7 or not".

Those who say 1vX needs to be more difficulty are zergers who are angry that a select few players won't allow themselves to be facerolled.

I get that its tough to win 1 v X. I get that ANY increase in damage potential can make that more difficult, be it poisons or beefed up enchants. i get that a new method of attack that allows removal of key buffs, specifically key defensive buffs, like EVERYTHING ELSE favors the many vs the one.

The one loses some resistance then THREE folks attack that resistance is worse than the three lsing resistance and getting hit once at a time etc.

But, what i cannot fathom is somehow letting that turn into "so since any changes like that will make 1 v many tougher, we cant make changes" and a big part of that is I dont buy an underlying premise that the game should balance to make 1 v 3 or 1 v 10 or 1 v 10000000000 winable or competitive unless the two side are just completely unmatched skill wise.

I mean, if one can survive against 3 or 5 or 25 ... seems 1 on 1 are basically unwinnable

So,, given our differences in premise as to what the balance should support and how that impacts the addition of new stuff, we will have to agree to disagree.

Stormwalker

One thing I would like to see is for potions/poisons with multiple effects to be more clearly identified. Right now potions/poisons can share the same name but have different effects. The best example is a potion of health. There are potions that grant health or health & magicka or health & stamina or even be a tripot that grants health, stamina, & magicka and they are all named potion of health. The potion/poison name should reflect all of the potion/poison effects.

Another aid to identifying potion/poison effects would be to have different levels of item quality similar to the levels of food and drink. For example:

• potions & poisons with one effect would be white/normal
• potions & poisons with two effect would be blue/superior
• potions & poisons with one effect would be purple/epic

ContraTempo

Doncellius wrote: »

****Questions for PTS testers!
1) Can multiple poisons from different enemies apply to one character (aka will 1vX become that much tougher)?

This is pure speculation on my part, but you know how having multiple effects in one poison is suppose to make all those effects weaker/shorter? Perhaps they will do the same thing when the effects come from multiple attackers with poisons.

That would also resolve the question of whether I can gain an advantage by hitting you with weapon 1 that is poisoned with one poison, then swapping to weapon 2 (with a different poison) and hitting you again. They might let both poisons affect you but those effects would be weaker.

Alternately, you could be immune to poisons until the first one wears off, like we are immune to CC for a short time after a stun.

Vaoh

STEVIL wrote: »

Doncellius wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

aLi3nZ wrote: »

As a Magika player who uses duel weild swords that are never actually used. I hate these poisons. Imagine trying to 1vsX now with 4+enemy player getting their poison procs on you.

Seems lame, would have been cool to leave poisens pve only. I guess I will be forced to try use em like everyone else in orfder to be competitive

Yes things change in a living mmo. I imagine the hesvy boosts to enchants also hurt the one vs many contest.

Of course, some might call making one vs many harder is not a bad direction.

Going up against more than 1 player in a fair, upfront fight is called being outnumbered. You are already dealing with enough from the enemy having the ability to put out 2x damage, 2x heals, better survivability, etc. Your task as a 1vXer aka solo player is already tough. Poisons should be toned down, as they are straight up WAY too powerful right now.

It's much more of a contest between "do you have the Gold to afford expensive OP poisons 24/7 or not".

Those who say 1vX needs to be more difficulty are zergers who are angry that a select few players won't allow themselves to be facerolled.

I get that its tough to win 1 v X. I get that ANY increase in damage potential can make that more difficult, be it poisons or beefed up enchants. i get that a new method of attack that allows removal of key buffs, specifically key defensive buffs, like EVERYTHING ELSE favors the many vs the one.

The one loses some resistance then THREE folks attack that resistance is worse than the three lsing resistance and getting hit once at a time etc.

But, what i cannot fathom is somehow letting that turn into "so since any changes like that will make 1 v many tougher, we cant make changes" and a big part of that is I dont buy an underlying premise that the game should balance to make 1 v 3 or 1 v 10 or 1 v 10000000000 winable or competitive unless the two side are just completely unmatched skill wise.

I mean, if one can survive against 3 or 5 or 25 ... seems 1 on 1 are basically unwinnable

So,, given our differences in premise as to what the balance should support and how that impacts the addition of new stuff, we will have to agree to disagree.

Totally fair

It's just, those who 1vX are very strong players. It's never easy, and there is already plenty that groups can do to utterly eliminate a 1vXers chance at winning. (gap closer+root spam....)

Poisons are fine, and awesome for sure, but it will create another layer of learning curve in PvP. I just find the ability to increase an enemy's ability costs by 30%, decrease healing by 30%, and drain Immovable for 10 seconds to be a little overkill. Poison needs toning down, not removal.

And another thing to note: The groups which are 3-10 large and get 1vXed by players like myself are not skilled enough to know they should run these poisons. I will have an easier time killing them though if I run them. The stronger groups you can't 1vX will all run these poisons, and cause 1vXers + inexperienced groups to be seriously disadvantaged.

Hopefully I'm wrong, but I have a feeling this is exactly how it'll turn out.

Yes we disagree, but do you really believe this is balanced right now? This is not going to crush 1vXers, it'll crush anyone who is not super rich + experienced at PvP from having a chance. There are much stronger poisons than this one as well!

NBrookus

@Bel_Shezzar

I really like the concept of poisons, and have positive thoughts for the changes we are seeing in the current patch and that have been communicated to us that are coming.

But like @staracino_ESO I disagree with the nature of the existing combinations. Poisons should be what we use those negative reagents for. It harms the opponent. Let's use Emetic Russala and Violet Coprinus and the other negative reagents to make poisons.

When we just use an oil instead of water and essentially reverse the effects of a potion AND add buffs to the player, it's confusing and doesn't make a lot of sense. If I use a reagent that adds health in my poison, it should add health to the player or NPC inflicted with it -- just as if you put a negative reagent in a potion, it would have negative effects on the person that consumed it.

It also hurts the economy of the game. Reagents like Columbine are already very expensive and valuable, while we have others that are only basically used for leveling alchemy now and have low value.

DMBCML

When killing for the new reagents, do mobs have to be at your level to get the drop? Or will lower level mobs work for this purpose? I killed giants and trolls in Gold Coast and Wrothgar, both of which dropped the oil. However, I went (v15) to The Rift and killed some giants there ( lvl 38) and no oil dropped.

Since fleshflies, torchbugs and butterflies are lvl 1 mobs, killing lvl 1 spiders should give the same drops? I did get spider eggs from big spiders in Wrothgar.

If you must be within the 5 level range to get the drops for the oil and spider eggs, then farming those items will be quite difficult compared to farming other items. I'm not sure a lot of people will want to do that and will instead prefer to buy the poisons already made. But, those are probably the same people who prefer to buy potions and food items.

VaxtinTheWolf

DMBCML wrote: »

When killing for the new reagents, do mobs have to be at your level to get the drop? Or will lower level mobs work for this purpose? I killed giants and trolls in Gold Coast and Wrothgar, both of which dropped the oil. However, I went (v15) to The Rift and killed some giants there ( lvl 38) and no oil dropped.

Since fleshflies, torchbugs and butterflies are lvl 1 mobs, killing lvl 1 spiders should give the same drops? I did get spider eggs from big spiders in Wrothgar.

If you must be within the 5 level range to get the drops for the oil and spider eggs, then farming those items will be quite difficult compared to farming other items. I'm not sure a lot of people will want to do that and will instead prefer to buy the poisons already made. But, those are probably the same people who prefer to buy potions and food items.

I know for sure I was looting oils from enemies in the 4-man dungeons. Spindle clutch, banished cells, etc. Normal versions of them. I didn't spend time elsewhere though, so that's my only suggestion.

staracino_ESO

NBrookus wrote: »

@Bel_Shezzar

I really like the concept of poisons, and have positive thoughts for the changes we are seeing in the current patch and that have been communicated to us that are coming.

But like @staracino_ESO I disagree with the nature of the existing combinations. Poisons should be what we use those negative reagents for. It harms the opponent. Let's use Emetic Russala and Violet Coprinus and the other negative reagents to make poisons.

When we just use an oil instead of water and essentially reverse the effects of a potion AND add buffs to the player, it's confusing and doesn't make a lot of sense. If I use a reagent that adds health in my poison, it should add health to the player or NPC inflicted with it -- just as if you put a negative reagent in a potion, it would have negative effects on the person that consumed it.

It also hurts the economy of the game. Reagents like Columbine are already very expensive and valuable, while we have others that are only basically used for leveling alchemy now and have low value.

Yes, this is something I am going to be hammering away at until DB launches, since I have been waiting 2 years for the rest of the alchemy reagents to be usable. 2 years ago, when I asked a ZOS employee about poison making, they said it was one of the things they wanted to "get right' before they added it into the game (sorry don't have quote). If they launch it with the traits working as they do now, that will not be right. Again, the balance changes they are making to the numbers keep going in the right direction. The problem I have is simply the way the traits currently translate into poison effects. It will make the same herbs useful for potions AND poisons.

ContraTempo

DMBCML wrote: »

Since fleshflies, torchbugs and butterflies are lvl 1 mobs, killing lvl 1 spiders should give the same drops? I did get spider eggs from big spiders in Wrothgar.

If you must be within the 5 level range to get the drops for the oil and spider eggs, then farming those items will be quite difficult compared to farming other items. I'm not sure a lot of people will want to do that and will instead prefer to buy the poisons already made. But, those are probably the same people who prefer to buy potions and food items.

I got spider eggs by killing off lots of spiders -- not even the kind that attack you, but the little normal ones -- with blasts from the new Silver Shards (which will kill 6 at once). So apparently level does not matter. I also took a high level character back to Auridon and collected some of the new reagents, so I'm guessing lvl does not matter, at least for now. That could change though.

I'm, sure you can only get the oil in the appropriate level zone though.

Essiaga

Is there going to be a no poison campaign like there is a no CP campaign?

Poisons are going to cause larger gaps between players that will discourage casual people from playing. It been said people like to be in control of their character ... having buffs removed from them by poisons ... is going to make people feel out of control. Its one thing to be debuffed, but to be debuffed and then have your buffs removed ... Seems confusing and frustrating.

I'll play me, and you play you.

"Why do I keep dying?" L2P of course ... Here are some of the variables ...
Your ... Class, race, level, attributes, skills available, Passives, Skill used, bar set-up, gear, gear quality, # of CP, how CP is spent, traits, pots, poisons, enchants ...

Then there's the other player's ... Class, race, level, attributes, skills available, Passives, Skill used, bar set-up, gear, gear quality, # of CP, how CP is spent, traits, pots, poisons, enchants ...

Now 1 of them being a little off might not matter but start with a bad race, spend your CP wrong, fail to buff or drink a pot, have bad resource management, don't understand CC immunity, animation canceling, or simply how a skill is supposed to work differently vs players ... It's a complicated system. Many people just zerg up rather then learn it ... but who can blame them. Others just don't bother. I know plenty of people who quite ESO in the first 2 months because of the how much pvp changed for them. Players leveled, unlocked skills they didn't have, learned 'exploits,' etc. There ability to play didn't mach their desire to learn to play. People spend less time learning Math in their lives then they spend L2P PVP in ESO.

Knowledgeable, dedicated players will excel ... and casual players will be overwhelmed/frustrated and find something else to do or they'll Zerg up to over come what they lack, never learning, and only zerging, which tends to frustrate others.

It's a bad business model. There's are reason games like Counter Strike are still super popular. CS lacks the imbalance and complexity of ESO ... it's simple. Where as PVP in ESO has far to many variables and systems and it's pvp population is ever shrinking.

Most people don't come back to MMOs because they don't want to catch up. Sure there is some time spent leveling or finding gear, but also the time spent L2P again. They work hard enough at work/school to want to be a PHD in ESO. PVP doesn't need complicated systems ... nor does it need objectives and rewards. It needs people who want to want to play. Siege and Alliance skills kill PVP for me and many others which help shrink the PVP and ESO population. I just want to compete against actual players and have a chance to win ... preferably with out hours/days/months of research. I have a friend who is literally a genius, tested IQ in 160 range, but refuses to play this game after convincing me to join it during beta. He wasn't able to play his way and didn't care to L2P (despite studying calculus for fun). He just wanted to play.

PVE doesn't prepare you or PVP. ESO has no tutorials on how to actually compete. Thank Dog for people like Lefty to explain animation canceling, etc. How many people just play Sypher's builds because it's just to daunting to figure out there own? They spend hours watching streams or on Youtube hoping for enlightenment ... rather then actually playing the game ... asking questions like streamers are some kind of guru. It's a game.

Development Time would have been far better spent on duels, or Arenas, or working on balancing the game so Battle Spirit goes away. There's plenty of stuff not working properly. Why add to it?

exiledtyrant

Tested some of the poison after 2.4.1. It looks like the change to combine 3 of the same positive effect for a buff extension is broken. Any time I combine 3 of the same buff the poison goes to 0 seconds and won't apply the buff when it procs. Sustained draining poison also isn't stacking with restore health poison. Only sustained draining poison appears to fire when they are mixed together.

Some of the stronger poison effects still appear to be active.

- Unstoppable + Root can be applied with various utilities.
- The stealth detection poisons still appear overkill. I can combine multiple resource ravages, snares, roots, or dots with detect invisible.
- crit damage + crit chance reduction can still be applied with each other
- minor protect + minor vuln can be applied with no dilution for a variety of poisons. I am certainly considering using this poison with minor fracture as they all last 10 seconds and give an almost 10% raw damage increase along with 8% damage reduction.

Making the weapon damage and weapon crit buffs minor was a good move. Now builds that specialize completely into raw crit or damage can acquire these all to uncommon minor buffs. They may have a hard time comparing to a minor vuln+ fracture poison though.

I like the direction of draining poisons in general. Being able to make a leech build with poisons is pretty awesome. If the draining health poisons ever get fixed they add the options of an extra 2k hps in pve which is nice for those that specialize in DOTs.

As far as the battle between enchantments and poisons go I think the 10 second cooldown was a clever way to supply each their own niche. Poisons are no doubt better for single target encounters, but enchantments are better when fighting multiple targets because of the lower CD. It should work out that if you are fighting multiple enemies ( trash mobs PVE or resource/siege fights PvP) you will want an enchantment slotted. For solo fights ( bosses PvE or ganking PvP) you would want a poison since you aren't switching targets often enough.

A few example for consideration include:

Build that utilizes flat damage on Single target

Over 10 seconds a powered glyph would give about 7k damage on a single weapon and 14k damage using 2 weapon
A poison complex drain poison would deal 19k damage. Then you consider around 16k damage healed from the poison as well and the winner is clear.

In a multiple enemy scenario the potential damage is the same, but an enchantment could spread out the damage to multiple targets while a poison could not. Fights with multiple target switching leaves the poison losing out because it can be wasted for a fairly long time.

A build that focus on raising tooltip damage through stacking weapon damage on single target

10 % damage increase to using a vuln fracture poison
10% damage increase to each weapon damage scaling abilities using a weapon damage enchant
5% damage increase to all tooltip damage + 3% increase crit chance using a weapon power/ crit poison.

Vuln fracture poison wins out because it can be combined with other effects. Weapon power / crit poison may edge out a weapon power glyph in a very specialized build.

In a multiple target situation the weapon power glyph wins because it increases abilities damage by 10% vs all targets instead of one.

Alcast

I just wonder, how are we supposed to test poison if half the changes are not implemented yet and will not be till it hits life.

Teridaxus

Small suggestion:
A toggle between poison and enchantment, accesible with a hotkey would be really since it seems poison will be more useful vs bosses or strong pvpers and enchanments for everything else.

Dreddnawt

DRAINS ARE THE MAJOR PROBLEM WITH POISONS AS THEY ARE NOW.

@ZOS_GinaBruno
I posted a detailed breakdown of my feedback in that thread. Hope you have the time to consider this suggestion.

BenevolentBowd

I've re-run through all 30 traits for 2.4.1 and updated my blog with the new durations and poison names.
http://benevolentbowd.ca/esotu/esotu-poison-making-for-the-savvy-assassin/

Ajax_22

First let's call these new poisons what they are, Champion Point counters. Poisons are the worst thing for PvP since Champion Points were implemented. There is no way these poisons were internally tested in a no CP PvP environment. losing over a CP star worth of a stat when you don't have the CP star to lose is so beyond broken. These no CP campaigns are going to be worse then when your CP was active in BWB. They are going to be full of experienced players using poisons to fight new and inexperienced players who don't know or don't have the ability to use them. The drain poisons are the biggest offenders. The current visual proc, buff, and debuff system is already extremely cluttered, rarely works correctly, and incredibly counter-intuitive in fast paced combat. Now you are going to add in some of the most powerful debuffs in game with no way to tell if your character is affected by them. @Wrobel You cannot add these drain poisons to the game without adding a togglable buff/debuff bar in game. @ZOS_BrianWheeler Please fight to keep these poisons out of Cyrodiil, or at the very least out of non CP campaigns. Poisons are a great and interesting addition to the game for PvE. However, they are completely unbalanced in PvP.

kryptonpink

This guy in this thread has laid it all out. I couldn't agree more with him. I think you all should read this!

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/264125/no-drains-in-poison-crafting#latest