I have spent 11 hours testing Subclassing today and to answer the questions
Did you have fun experimenting with the system?
Yes it is fun to have a spec bow on sorc and surprise attack and jabs as well.
Do you plan to use this feature when it goes live?
I don't know honestly, If this goes live I may not play ESO as much. from my tests, Balance is a HUGE issue. I have never been able to hit this hard as this before and at the same time, be nearly unkillable simply because of how passives and skills interact with eachother. I am able to easily Aquire Damage and survivability through subclassing to the point where build craft has become trivial and boring due to how easily i am able to get what i want. My solutions to my problems are far less creative that I originally imagined and i can see myself getting bored of this quickly, especially once METAs are established and people just end up running those instead of being creative, in order to stay competitive.
Is there anything confusing about the UI or the methods to engage with Subclassing?
For me, I was able to figure it out after some trial and error, but the UI navigation for subclassing Feels kinda messy. lots of new Icons and menus I need to tab through in order to get subclassing going. I got it figured out now(i think) but it took longer than it should have for me to establish this.
How long did it take you to level up a subclassed skill line?
I just spammed PTS Templates untill i got access to all the subclassing options.
I'd imagine an hour in blackrose prison would set you to the max level of a skill line though.

Overall, Im worried about subclassing going live. I love theory crafting in eso, i wake up in the morning sometimes with build ideas on my mind, but with Subclassing, My class identity feels forfeit, and solutions to combat problems have become too easy to fix. if i want to stay as a regular sorcerer or nightblade, or any class and not use subclassing, I will easily be missing out on my full potential to deal damage or play a supporting role simply because of how the classes, when combined properly, interact with each other. Subclassing, as powerful as it can make me, makes me Appreciate what we still currently have on the live server. the delicacies of each class and their roles in ESO is established and feels fulfilling. Working around a classes weaknesses with sets and playstyles feels super rewarding when done right. Subclassing Introduces chaos to this where if i want a solution to a problem, ill just find the solution in another class. It Kills the challenge and identity that comes with trying to solve combat situations. Build craft is surprisingly stale and boring with subclassing.

Honestly? You broke the game. It's fun for people who just want to min/max or play a wacky theme build, but anyone who wants to play a vanilla class gets completely left behind. Power creep is insane, gap between ceiling and floor worse than it has ever been.
The only way to even hope to bring balance is to nerf the outliers into oblivion.... which will wreck their respective classes. Or, buff the poor doers! Which will bring balance sure, at the cost of upping damage to downright unsustainable

only swap 1 skill line or you only can use dps line swap dps line looked a only way..

Did the sublcassling quest teach you everything you had to learn for using this system?

It's pretty clear, understood it exactly as it is before using it.

Is there anything confusing about the UI or the methods to engage with Subclassing?

I was a bit confused when I left the shrine for the first time. I could preview the skills but couldn't add or swap skill lines. I had to figure out on my own that I need to speak with NPC.

How long did it take you to level up a subclassed skill line?

N.A. I was using template

Do you plan to use this feature when it goes live?

Can't wait to use it! It's one of the best changes introduced ever!

Did you have fun experimenting with the system?

Yup, I feel like a kid in a candy store

Few words from me

This is one of the cleverest ways to introduce balance. Congratulations on the idea. Thanks to this, I think in the near future we’ll be able to put an end to the eternal debates about class balance because if something is truly OP, everyone can use it, and a nerf will satisfy most players to a greater or lesser extent. Moreover, it’s a brilliant way to breathe life into classes that have so far had significant gaps in their arsenal. I can’t wait to see what other players come up with.

Additionally, the way subclassing was introduced is genius. The requirement to give up one of your own skill lines encourages reflection on the strengths and weaknesses of a class. On top of that, the option to choose, for example, just one skill line and keep two of your own ensures that class choice remains important but not as definitive as it used to be. This is a great solution for people who’ve invested a lot of time in developing their character and don’t want to start a new class from scratch because their current one is too weak.

A huge, massive bow to you, ZOS.

https://youtu.be/HtWkuaY1Arw

Video In Short:
- Subclassing will cause endless bugs with all the new skills/passives interacting with each other
- The way you are implementing it, you will either cause insane power creep or will nerf skills to balance multi classing (like you already did with plar) which will cause base class's to be left behind in the dust.
- The video suggest to give 25% nerf to all skills/passive when you multiclass.
- Other games have measures in place to balance multi classings with pure class's (BG3, POE, D&D) you need to do the same.

To answer the questions asked Specifically:

Did the sublcassling quest teach you everything you had to learn for using this system?
- Yes

Is there anything confusing about the UI or the methods to engage with Subclassing?
- No

How long did it take you to level up a subclassed skill line?
- N/A (Template PTS Characters)

Do you plan to use this feature when it goes live?
- As it currently is, there is a good chance I quit the game if this goes live (as in Week 1 right now). At first my thought was I'd just have a pureclass prog group. However then realized you have to Gut base class skills to balance for multiclassing (like you already did with plar beam). So I can't even do that.

Did you have fun experimenting with the system?
- I already had a spreadsheet of what was going to be broken and the most OP choices a week ago when this was announced. The only change was the NB buff. However took me 10 mins to find the most meta option. So it was about 10 mins of bittersweet fun seeing how much you broke the balance of the game and being sad about it.

Another related topic: the difference between a drawback and an opportunity cost.

A good system that makes people choose what to run will have benefits and drawbacks. “If you choose to take X, you will get benefit Y in exchange for drawback Z.” In that case, players will need to decide if Y is worth Z.

The new subclassing system seems to have an awkward version of that, where the drawback is “you lose one of your parent lines,” which for some classes is a much larger choice than others. The DLC classes in particular are strictly regimented into tank/heal/damage lines, so it’s extremely easy for an Arcanist DPS to say “I’m going to give up these lines that I don’t use anyway and in return I get a lot more power!”

The other thing that we have is an opportunity cost. That is not a drawback. Sure, it’ll take time to farm more skyshards to get the skill points (or less charitably, to buy them) and then grind master writs to level everything up… but what then? Once you have those chores done, then there’s no longer a decision of whether it's worth it or not. It’s like if they released the Oakensoul ring and said “instead of locking you to one bar, the drawback to using it is that you have to dig up the leads first.” Ok, but once you did that, you get all the power and no weakness.

I don’t think the ‘double skill point’ cost is necessary. It’s just a barrier to entry, but it will not affect the decision making for players who already have the skill points. And Subclassing needs to be given an actual drawback so it becomes something with a choice and not just “oh, just trade your unused trash lines for other lines that give only benefits!”

Did the sublcassling quest teach you everything you had to learn for using this system?
I accidentally did not pay attention to it and Well i figured it all out on my own 😅

Is there anything confusing about the UI or the methods to engage with Subclassing?
I think there needs to be something more to indicate why you cant learn a skill because right now that feels unintuitive

How long did it take you to level up a subclassed skill line?
i feel like i am grinding pretty heavy to get a skill line leveled up

Do you plan to use this feature when it goes live?
ABSOLUTELY, I love the hell out of this system. I understand alot of people are talking about balance and those issues but honestly this system has been needed from the jump its so much fun and allows you to build what you want for your character.

Did you have fun experimenting with the system?

Absolutely as stated above its insanely fun for me and the theorycrafting is back it feels like

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Pure classes should not be underpowered compared to hybrids. If anything, the pure classes should have more raw power than hybrid classes.

Absolutely this.

The best way to do something like that would be to nerf all tooltips by some percentage if a character takes up a subclass. In that way, the player needs to choose between keeping the raw power of a single class, or reducing their power in exchange for more versatility.

And this.

As for general feedback, sure it was interesting to try out other classes, but I realised that I still prefer my own class. And it's always depressing to watch your favourite class get nerfed.

Did the sublcassling quest teach you everything you had to learn for using this system?
Yes, though I was expecting more to the quest than just a quick chat with an NPC.

Is there anything confusing about the UI or the methods to engage with Subclassing?
I didn't find anything to be confusing. It all looks pretty straightforward.

How long did it take you to level up a subclassed skill line?
N/A I just used a template character.

Do you plan to use this feature when it goes live?
Absolutely. I have various characters that, lore-wise, know different skills from different classes and it's nice to finally bring those ideas to life. But it absolutely needs a lot more balancing before it can go live. It's way too easy to toss aside lackluster skill lines and replace them with something much stronger. Like I can easily get rid of daedric summoning on my petless bowsorc and replace it with the assassination skill line and feel no drawbacks whatsoever, especially with the current changes to that skill line. The double skill point cost isn't even that much of a drawback. It's just a mild inconvenience at best.

Did you have fun experimenting with the system?
I did for a little bit, but the animation changes and bugs completely took the wind out of my sails. It's hard to really get a feel for how combat will flow with a build when the skills either don't fire at all or I have to look at my ability timers because the animation changes make it almost impossible to see that I did cast them. How am I supposed to see a tiny purple flash on my character's hands in the middle of a fight when I cast crystal weapons? Same question for igneous weapons or race against time. Heck, even swinging your weapon feels janky now. I'll have to wait until the bugs are fixed before I can fully decide if the system is fun. As it currently is (Week 1) it's fun to theorycraft roleplay builds, but it's not fun testing any builds, meta or not.

Each class should have a passive scaling that gives a bonus for each same class line a player has active. This keeps pure classes relevent, and is a type of penalty for choosing more power and flexibility of the subclass lines.

so if you choose a base class you get 3x, if you just take one subclass line you get 2x for same class lines and 1x for new line and 1x or no benifit for pure subclassed character.

so the more of the same lines you take the more effective your passives are overall but the more hybrid you become the less effective the pasives are overall, but you can get better synergy out of them ( and different skills) which can potentially outweigh the pure class bonus.

much easier to balance this way and pretty simple to implement. Call it focus. Focus could also apply to other things as needed such as skill cost. I think the unique damage/effect should be left alone.

I will just give my 2 cents from the other thread:

Aylish wrote: »

You simply can‘t change the central point of combat - namely the classes‘ system - after 11 years.
This will destroy the game that we had.
There is no further point in being this or that class anymore.
Pure classes will underperform drastically. And you won‘t be able to balance that at all as long as class A‘s skill line is the same as that same skill line slotted to class B.

In the German After Reveal Stream tonight, we were told it was only „meant to be fun“ and not to outperform pure classes. Pure classes are meant to have the best play together between their original skill trees.

Well, then you obviously didn‘t design those pure classes well.
We already saw 160k-ish parses on PTS.
So playing pure classes with max 120-130k will be pointless from now on if you ever want to join some achievement prog runs on trials or harder dungeons.

tomofhyrule wrote: »

A lot of people feared Subclassing would be like Hybridization - a system which is designed to give more flexibility, but in reality coerced people into running a specific setup unless they actively chose to nerf themselves.

Pure classes should not be underpowered compared to hybrids. If anything, the pure classes should have more raw power than hybrid classes.

The best way to do something like that would be to nerf all tooltips by some percentage if a character takes up a subclass. In that way, the player needs to choose between keeping the raw power of a single class, or reducing their power in exchange for more versatility.

As it is, the players can choose 'nothing changes' versus 'more power and more versatility,' which is not a reasonable choice. Even when subclassing in games like D&D, adding more subclasses is a way to give characters more options, but you do so at the expense of accessing the most powerful features of your original class.

Just want to echo that I'm in agreement that there should be a baseline tooltip nerf for either Subclass skills (or rather Subclass skill lines) that aren't your actual class or just overall if you choose to take up Subclassing.

I posted this in the Combat thread but Eight Puppies got 171k on Day 1 of PTS after a couple hours of parsing without using the bugged version of Solar Barrage. Fatecarver did nearly 90k DPS by itself. Some people may like *insert huge number* but to me this is an unhealthy level of power creep.

Just for an example, if something like Merciless Resolve gives 300 W/SD at full stacks on a Blade then I don't think the bonus should be nearly as high if you subclassed that skill line on anything else. Same with something like the Cro DoT passive.
It's still a cool change for the solo players and people who RP but if you play at a level where this stuff actually matters this is just feels dumb.

<snipped out image for Profanity>

(Briefly said in a separate post, but said again here)

Name-Based Expectation

The name "Sub-classing" brings to mind, at least for me, unique upgrades to an existing class. For example, prestige or sub-classes in Dungeons & Dragons. You can be a Cleric, but your sub-class is Life Cleric. Sub-classing is even more specialized than the main class. Likewise, a Templar could be a Wrath Templar, or even invert the fantasy and make them a purple Daedric Templar or a cursed-Vampiric Templar. A Warden could be a <Location>-style Warden, and summon Black Marsh creatures and change their frost damage to poison or similar.

Effectively, at a minimum, existing morphs and focused skill trees are better at demonstrating a sub-class compared to adding new skill trees from other classes.

What is proposed, with making skill trees accessible, is more appropriately named "Multi-classing". Please note: there is nothing in this post against the idea of having more skills accessible. It is purely a critique and suggestion as to the implementation.

"Multi-classing"

Multi-classing, or Cross-Skilling, of customized skill trees, is a more appropriate term based on the current system. This is a typical and understood fantasy term and is distinct from the term "sub-classing". You can usually have your class, and take points or levels in another class, and mix and match the classes how you desire. There's often a penalty associated (which we have seen with the EXP and Skill Points cost, which is also problematic for separate reasons).


What should be added to "sub-classing"?

Unique Class Incentive

Rather than rejigging the entire system, it is proposed that each class receives a unique buff, which is not accessible by other classes. This could be under a separate skill tree for each class or through whatever UI/UX is appropriate. This would mean there is always a "benefit" to being any particular class, as at least a single piece of that class will be an incentive to someone to use that. The counterpoint, which I feel echoed as a concern, is that if there is an optimal loadout of skill trees, players will gravitate towards the best three. This does not alleviate a homogenisation concern, but a non-transferable buff could justify of incentivized reasons for keeping a diversity of "base" classes. As an example, while Dark Elf Arcanist is probably considered the "best" DPS combination, people still bring other races and classes because they can play and act differently. If everybody had the freedom to pick any race and take the Dark Elf damage passives, I believe they would. This would be more dissatisfying to both Elder Scrolls players and other RPG players.

Sub-classing "rewards"

There should be minor bonuses for having different combinations of classes. If they are distinct enough, this could probably be considered "sub-classing". For example, any Class taking a Flame tree, Lightning tree and Frost tree is pretty close to an Elementalist or Evoker. Besides the fantasy of "play as you want", there should be a mechanical incentive to have a Flame, Frost, and Lightning damage skill going at once. Suggested previously was a cycling-style buff, where Flame --> Frost --> Lightning skill rotations add a benefit to using diverse spells, as a unique Elementalist playstyle reward.


Another example could be where you take opposing identities. E.g., any Templar class + any Daedric skill line, such as Daedric Summoning or the Soldier of Apocrypha. This could give a "Daedric Paladin" buff, where your restoration ability is impacted at a benefit to shielding and pet damage.


Penalty vs Reward

The PTS conceptualisation of sub-classing only hurts what the game is trying to do. If you want players to take up a range of skills and abilities, don't make them pricier and level slower. Make it truly open and free. If there are concerns about easy access or whatever, structure the design so there is a benefit besides "play how you want". Don't negativize, incentivize. For example, make the "two skill points" lower the total EXP requirement of a skill. (To answer what could be an obvious question of how Skill respecification works: If a player refunds the skill points at a later date, then the skill reverts to being half-levelled). Alternatively, let players put 3 points into a morph and be able to swap to the other morph when out of combat.


It is bewildering why a system would be designed to just be worse than regular class skills leveling, when the design goal is to make the game more open. I understand that an MMO has retention and activity goals, and wants to keep players around, but players will stay if they are genuinely having fun and exploring different systems.


P.S. make Skyshards count as unlocked on subsequent characters if you have the achievement for a zone. Maybe tie it to a quick cheeky meta game quest that "remembers" your progress there. Keep it locked to lv 50 if that's really a problem. This is needed more than ever if we are going to need another 40 skill points per skill tree(!)

The system is lack of depth. Only the first day it is excited. Looks like there are a lot of choice, yet only when all the choice are equally competitive, the choosing became meaningful. Most of combinations are useless without the need to try. I get boring so quick; it is not as fun as play a different class alt.

At least the previous pure classes give me some equally competitive choice so I can spend some of my brain on figure out the fun of building characters.

Besides, using different basic classes doesn't make significant difference, I finally end up with certain skilllines. I feel like my choice is even less than before. It is like the heavy attack era.

You'll need to address how players are cherry picking passives to cheese their stats.

Eg. players are dipping into storm calling / aedric spear / assassination to get +20% crit damage on top of the +15% damage to their physical & shock procs. This is all passive, no need to use any active skills from these lines to achieve this.

The bare minimum adjustment here is to restrict subclass passives to rank 1 (half strength). Ideally the passives would not be carried over at all when subclassing, as there is already a immense amount of power present in the ability to go shopping for active skills alone.