Hardened Ward... Where player based skill can go from C-tier to S+-tier

Bushido2513 · July 17

DrNukenstein wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

That night be what's different for me then or I've made it so that most leave me alone because I'm usually at the very, hard to kill. I actually get a lot more of what you described as nbs

Yeah I get that from the bow/stick blades too. And it's also annoying, but they die if you get on them. They can't stand there and trade with you or teleport around. They can't even sprint in cloak. If they're 1bar babies (like most of them are) they don't even have space for at least one of the expeditions without being an even easier kill. They totally break the deal by using cloak in that way, but they also don't get to play like a 50k hp warden with a bazooka

I get my share of easy to kill and but the ones that like to hunt in packs are where I get issues. I know a few that specialize in rotating hard hitting attacks between each other so that even though they may be light you have a hard time finding an offensive window where one of them won't put you in a place to be killed by the other. You can tell they've practiced so that even tanky players have to los from them. Some also have fat heals so even if you do get them down they can go right back up.

The thing is that all of the above could really be described by multiple of anything it's just the players that make it so abusive.

Amottica · July 17

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Zabagad wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Again, what is the source of that data, and how is it collected? The last time someone cited numbers from an addon, they claimed the addon counted every player in the campaign, yet a couple of players provided a video to demonstrate how that addon actually worked, and it became clear it was not designed or intended to count all players in a campaign at any given moment.

So please excuse my reservations, but I have seen claims made citing proof that was proven incorrect.

Regardless, I see the base classes being the most popular, which makes sense as everyone has access to them. Warden gets into the mix with that. Even if those numbers are accurate, they show a short-term moderate increase in sorc numbers, which does not support the claim that the hardened ward turns a C player into an S+. If that were the case, we would see 75% of the game being sorcs. I say nope.

The method is written in the chart and it's not my goal to convince you (or others) that these data are quite good...
All the interpretations like "hardened ward turns a C player into an S+" are not coming from my side anyway.
I just take the data and started as a magSorc main with U35 using this method (after a lot of validation with other methods) . And as much as I trusted them in U35 to prove my feeling that sorc was in a bad place after hybrid, as much I still trust them in U41+

Honestly it really doesn't matter because it's either detailed or it's not but in this case I don't think anyone is really debating if they're are or aren't more sorcs. What we would need to know is if it's 2 percent or 200 percent and these numbers wouldn't be granular enough to give the detail needed.

But yes there are more sorcs, we all know that. How many are abusing ward, how many are just enjoying the class because it's easier to play now, how many flights result in getting kills, deaths, or stalemates? Only ZOS knows the full picture.

The only question that matters is how much of a difference the changes to the ward make. I think it is clear that the changes to the skill do not come close to making an average or underperforming player (C) into a top-level OP warrior (S+)

StaticWave · July 17

Jsmalls wrote: »

That being said there are extremes to everything.
Polar Wind isn't broken at 30k health.

Ward isn't broken at 45k Magicka (without Rallying cry).

This is my bias on the conversation.

@Jsmalls and I completely agree with you. BUT then again, most people don’t want to gimp themselves by playing fair, so instead of running a 45k max mag build without Rallying Cry, they will instead run a 45k max mag build WITH Rallying Cry, or a 55k+ max mag build.

It’s just like with proc sets. We can’t stop people from running them, no matter how much we try to tell them that procs make the game unfun. So how do you suggest we go about this issue?

Bushido2513 · July 17

Amottica wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Zabagad wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Again, what is the source of that data, and how is it collected? The last time someone cited numbers from an addon, they claimed the addon counted every player in the campaign, yet a couple of players provided a video to demonstrate how that addon actually worked, and it became clear it was not designed or intended to count all players in a campaign at any given moment.

So please excuse my reservations, but I have seen claims made citing proof that was proven incorrect.

Regardless, I see the base classes being the most popular, which makes sense as everyone has access to them. Warden gets into the mix with that. Even if those numbers are accurate, they show a short-term moderate increase in sorc numbers, which does not support the claim that the hardened ward turns a C player into an S+. If that were the case, we would see 75% of the game being sorcs. I say nope.

The method is written in the chart and it's not my goal to convince you (or others) that these data are quite good...
All the interpretations like "hardened ward turns a C player into an S+" are not coming from my side anyway.
I just take the data and started as a magSorc main with U35 using this method (after a lot of validation with other methods) . And as much as I trusted them in U35 to prove my feeling that sorc was in a bad place after hybrid, as much I still trust them in U41+

Honestly it really doesn't matter because it's either detailed or it's not but in this case I don't think anyone is really debating if they're are or aren't more sorcs. What we would need to know is if it's 2 percent or 200 percent and these numbers wouldn't be granular enough to give the detail needed.

But yes there are more sorcs, we all know that. How many are abusing ward, how many are just enjoying the class because it's easier to play now, how many flights result in getting kills, deaths, or stalemates? Only ZOS knows the full picture.

The only question that matters is how much of a difference the changes to the ward make. I think it is clear that the changes to the skill do not come close to making an average or underperforming player (C) into a top-level OP warrior (S+)

I would possibly agree in that the change to ward still requires a few things from the player. Things that an average player will do an average job of.

It sounds simple and easy to keep ward up with just one button but you can definitely run yourself out of resources or mismanage the timing and resources of your underlying heal. I'm speaking of under heavy pressure and not something like 1v1.

Yes you can definitely streak away but I've also seen players that didn't handle damage that follows you well or when other plays can keep up or spam roots.

Ward change definitely makes sorc easier but mediocre players still die to common forms of pressure and overwhelm

Jsmalls · July 17

StaticWave wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

That being said there are extremes to everything.
Polar Wind isn't broken at 30k health.

Ward isn't broken at 45k Magicka (without Rallying cry).

This is my bias on the conversation.

@Jsmalls and I completely agree with you. BUT then again, most people don’t want to gimp themselves by playing fair, so instead of running a 45k max mag build without Rallying Cry, they will instead run a 45k max mag build WITH Rallying Cry, or a 55k+ max mag build.

It’s just like with proc sets. We can’t stop people from running them, no matter how much we try to tell them that procs make the game unfun. So how do you suggest we go about this issue?

Balance sets properly. There is no reason Rallying Cry should have 2x 5 piece set bonuses as it's 5 pc bonus.

Give it a cooldown (10 seconds active time, 15 second cooldown like Briarheart).

Or hit each value with a 0.60 or so modifier. 180 Weapon damage, 1000 crit resist. Considering it DOES have a proc condition, it's just one that takes no effort to upkeep.

The concept for the set is cool, stronger when you aren't in a large group. But in practice in a 1v1 situation (which do occur a lot) the player not running this set is at a disadvantage.

The entire game needs an Item Set balance patch. Too many are useless and a handful are over performing.

xylena_lazarow · July 17

Jsmalls wrote: »

Balance sets properly. There is no reason Rallying Cry should have 2x 5 piece set bonuses as it's 5 pc bonus.

Rallying Cry isn't overperforming. Everything else is underperforming. Hundings and Impreg obviously aren't worth a 5pc bonus on their own. Mash them together, now you have something usable. Deleting Rallying Cry will have zero effect on MagSorc or Ward considering how many of them run back bar Wretched anyway.

StaticWave · July 17

Jsmalls wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

That being said there are extremes to everything.
Polar Wind isn't broken at 30k health.

Ward isn't broken at 45k Magicka (without Rallying cry).

This is my bias on the conversation.

@Jsmalls and I completely agree with you. BUT then again, most people don’t want to gimp themselves by playing fair, so instead of running a 45k max mag build without Rallying Cry, they will instead run a 45k max mag build WITH Rallying Cry, or a 55k+ max mag build.

It’s just like with proc sets. We can’t stop people from running them, no matter how much we try to tell them that procs make the game unfun. So how do you suggest we go about this issue?

Balance sets properly. There is no reason Rallying Cry should have 2x 5 piece set bonuses as it's 5 pc bonus.

Give it a cooldown (10 seconds active time, 15 second cooldown like Briarheart).

Or hit each value with a 0.60 or so modifier. 180 Weapon damage, 1000 crit resist. Considering it DOES have a proc condition, it's just one that takes no effort to upkeep.

The concept for the set is cool, stronger when you aren't in a large group. But in practice in a 1v1 situation (which do occur a lot) the player not running this set is at a disadvantage.

The entire game needs an Item Set balance patch. Too many are useless and a handful are over performing.

But without Rallying Cry, I am literally exploding in 2s. Even with Rallying Cry I’m taking 15k bows to the face and 4k Tarnish procs. I’m basically forced to play with 45k+ HP because that’s the only way to survive without Rallying Cry.

This is the other side of the coin that ppl don’t mention. There is simply TOO MUCH damage going around. To nerf defense without nerfing damage will just cause balance to be completely lopsided.

Jsmalls · July 17

Resistant champion star is an option. Of course it comes with a damage loss (as becoming more Tanky should).

I'll agree that Resistant CP star is lacking in strength. The 5 pc bonus for Crit resist is 1650, so according to their breakdown of other comparable stats it should be around 820~.

7x impen, plus base crit resist, and resistant CP star should be plenty of crit resist.

That being said I wouldn't choose 10% crit resist over the damage stars offered, but it's an option.

Joy_Division · July 17

Jsmalls wrote: »

@Joy_Division
@StaticWave
@xylena_lazarow

I may not play another class, but I can guarantee I have more experience in Open world PvP than 99.9% of the player base.

AP doesn't mean everything, but it also doesn't mean nothing. I have 11 million AP halfway through this months campaign and 16 million in last months campaign. And that's a month and a half of my 10 year play time.

I've killed a lot of players. I've also died a lot. I've fought every single build you can imagine from every class you can think of.

I've 1vX'd, 1v1'd (I don't engage in the competitive 1v1 playstyle its just not my interest), GvG'd and Xv1'd with the best of them.

I always try to recognize my bias in my statements.

I have a very good handle on what's Overtuned, what's balanced, and what needs to be buffed.

I also have a very good handle on what classes are capable of from the other side of the fence.

That being said there are extremes to everything.
Polar Wind isn't broken at 30k health.

Ward isn't broken at 45k Magicka (without Rallying cry).

This is my bias on the conversation.

Right now Sorcs have the potential for build diversity. I can make any number of sets viable on Sorc right now. That hasn't been an option prior to update 41 in a LONG time.

Address the outliers (60k magicka / Rallying cry setups). Don't gut the skill.

At the end of the day turning it into a HoT isn't going to change the fact that 18k Wards are now possible (major vitality is easy to get now).

And an 18k Ward without a burst heal attached is a problem.

I wouldn't disagree with anything here.

I used to be pretty good on a Templar when I played regularly, but those days are in the past. Now let's just say I would defer specific balance knowledge to Xylena, Static, and yourself because they have had a lot more experience in recent ESO PvP than I do.

Though ten years is ten years, and there are certain combinations that have consistently been very strong in how ESO PvP and more specifically Cyrodiil plays out, and that's mostly where I am coming from.

In a vacuum or in strict defensiveness in comparison to other classes, Hardened Ward is fine. Because that is exactly how ZOS approaches balancing, They have their spreadsheets, standardized formulas, and target dummies to ensure that in isolation, the functionality of class A's DoTs, resource return, damage reflected, dummy DPS, almost everything works out to be about the same as class B. In their minds, this must result in balance or at least the means to easily reign in outliers.

What ZOS does not realize, apart from creating mostly soulless abilities that suck the life of class identity, is that in their approach to fanatically hammer down every existing protruding nail, it only magnifies the existing differences. This is why every trial groups runs with like 8 Arcanists. If legitimately the only thing a distinctive thing a NB brings to the table is a minor crit damage buff, there is no reason to bring one other than making it a buff bot with some specific support sets since the class can't quite reach the magic DPS ZOS has set as the standard that every class must do.

Outlier skills like Streak and sets like Rallying Cry and things like flexible build variety and once difficult to acquire buffs like major vitality are now given out like Halloween candy and concepts such as ranged or burst damage have very real intangible effects on combat in a dynamic setting like PvP. These can;t be measured by a target dummy and they do things ZOS's spreadsheets cannot account for.

The other thing I would say is that if any knowledge is primary acquired through the perspective of being an enemy or an outsider, that knowledge will never be complete and will not be able to take into account change over time. If you run into a solo templar in the open world, the majority of the time it's either a die-hard fan of the class or someone who has mastered it such they can be competitive with it despite its weaknesses. So, a lot of experiences are going to come from mostly highly skilled or knowledgeable players rather than average or poor players, which is going to skew the perception of the class being stronger than the mean of how it actually plays. Being on the receiving end of what a Templar can do does not automatically confer comprehension of the nuts and bolts going on under the hood. Also, perceptions just gained by being an opponent are going to also be locked into the present, as what the typical encounter against a Templar player say last February has long faded away. A Templar main will have a more varied experience of what the class can do having fought against all the other classes with an actual templar and also fought against all caliber of players with said Templar. Having these experiences will provide the data to measure the effectiveness of the class over time. Most of the people complaining about sorcs now probably have no clue how bad the class was in 1.4 to 1.5.

I don't know what to do here. My general feeling is that it is too easy for average players to stall out fights and not die. But Static is right in that there is so much offense that if we don;t have things like Rallying Cry, high mobility, and the very things that make it easy for average players not to die, we will explode. I think ZOS has gotten to the point where the power creep and their approach to balance is beyond repair. They might have been better off allowing classes to retain what were perceived as outlier abilities because it's really frustrating when some classes are allowed to keep theirs (Streak, Cloak) and some of these outlier abilities would have still been welcomed in PvE and given players an actual way to contribute even if the target dummy dictated their class didn't belong.

Bushido2513 · July 17

StaticWave wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

That being said there are extremes to everything.
Polar Wind isn't broken at 30k health.

Ward isn't broken at 45k Magicka (without Rallying cry).

This is my bias on the conversation.

@Jsmalls and I completely agree with you. BUT then again, most people don’t want to gimp themselves by playing fair, so instead of running a 45k max mag build without Rallying Cry, they will instead run a 45k max mag build WITH Rallying Cry, or a 55k+ max mag build.

It’s just like with proc sets. We can’t stop people from running them, no matter how much we try to tell them that procs make the game unfun. So how do you suggest we go about this issue?

Balance sets properly. There is no reason Rallying Cry should have 2x 5 piece set bonuses as it's 5 pc bonus.

Give it a cooldown (10 seconds active time, 15 second cooldown like Briarheart).

Or hit each value with a 0.60 or so modifier. 180 Weapon damage, 1000 crit resist. Considering it DOES have a proc condition, it's just one that takes no effort to upkeep.

The concept for the set is cool, stronger when you aren't in a large group. But in practice in a 1v1 situation (which do occur a lot) the player not running this set is at a disadvantage.

The entire game needs an Item Set balance patch. Too many are useless and a handful are over performing.

But without Rallying Cry, I am literally exploding in 2s. Even with Rallying Cry I’m taking 15k bows to the face and 4k Tarnish procs. I’m basically forced to play with 45k+ HP because that’s the only way to survive without Rallying Cry.

This is the other side of the coin that ppl don’t mention. There is simply TOO MUCH damage going around. To nerf defense without nerfing damage will just cause balance to be completely lopsided.

I don't run rallying and I don't explode and have decent damage.

Turtle_Bot · July 17

@Joy_Division

Well said, especially the last 2 paragraphs.

It's also well worth keeping in mind (as you stated) that the vast majority (like 90%+) of sorcs that the current player-base has had to deal with for the past 3+ years or so, before the recent ward buff, has been stamsorcs, or the very few remaining magsorc fanatics such as players like malcolm.
Most players currently commenting about magsorc being broken, probably forgot (or never even knew) what a magsorc was, let alone how to play against it, since it basically didn't exist as it's own thing for so long (basically being a sub-par stamsorc for the longest time before U35 nerfed it into oblivion), due to stamsorc being both objectively stronger (in both actual strength and synergy with the meta sets/gear/weapons) and significantly easier to play.

This ties back into the other thing @StaticWave was saying recently, where majority of players will migrate to whatever is the easiest/gives them the biggest advantage. Right now that is magsorc with ward, Plar spamming beam from the back of a zerg/keep wall or NB with cloak (I am seeing another rise in NB population lately too, a small rise, but it is still noticeable).
But in the past it is has been DK with perma corrosive, DK with perma block ashcloud, old 75% mitigation mist form, perma CC wardens, PotL/jabs spamming plars, savage werewolf stamsorcs, necro ranged bombers, immortal damage return necro tanks, unbreakable CC Arcanist, Elf bane builds with sieges, etc, etc.

Combat balance in this game is long gone, and has been and has been getting worse, ever since the hybridization changes, the great U35 nerfing of all damage, and the design of modern proc sets that basically play the game for you.

The only way true balance will ever return is if all classes are allowed to have their unique strengths be returned and the generic access to those different class strengths is made extremely hard to fit into a build for another class.

Things like:
- RaT, Mist form, Vault and all the movement speed CP, traits, passives, sets and skills would need to be deleted from the game so that sorc would once again be the speed class.
- Invis pots, vamp stage 4 invis and other sources of stealth would have to be deleted so NB could be the invis/rogue class.
- Healing would have to be drastically nerfed across the board outside of templars specifically, allowing them to be the healer class.
- Mitigation would have to be gutted across the board so that DK can be the tank class.
- Damage would need to be gutted across the board so not every class can easily proc their way to hitting as hard as NB/sorc.
- Debuffs would have to be significantly reduced to allow necro to be the debuff class.
- Warden and Arcanist would have to be entirely reworked/redesigned, although warden could have the argument of being the "jack of all trades, master of none" class that has a little bit of everything, but nothing special compared to any of the other classes.

Unfortunately these changes to restore balance will never occur. Players love the following far too much for them to ever get properly balanced without game destroying amounts of backlash from the community:
- The generically easy to access speed/mobility.
- The free damage/mitigation/healing.
- Proc sets.
- The free sustain (thanks to hybridization, allowing players to utilize both resources giving them an effective (minimum) resource pool of 40k+ max resources with a combined effective regen of 5k+ to spam their abilities as much as they want and never run out).
Not to mention everything else that has been added to the game over the years.

xylena_lazarow · July 17

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Players love the following far too much for them to ever get properly balanced without game destroying amounts of backlash from the community:
- The generically easy to access speed/mobility.
- The free damage/mitigation/healing.
- Proc sets.
- The free sustain (thanks to hybridization, allowing players to utilize both resources giving them an effective (minimum) resource pool of 40k+ max resources with a combined effective regen of 5k+ to spam their abilities as much as they want and never run out).

Nailing Undeath was a huge step towards addressing your 2nd point. I already made a thread on proc sets for your 3rd point, and encourage everyone to take a more serious look at burst procs like Tarnished, which have far reaching effects on the meta. Many of the endless sustain problems are in the red cp tree, hopefully the Druid's Resurgence nerf helps the 4th.

To the 1st I was already considering a "hear me out" type post on speed creep and how Expedition and Celerity break the game, I'm glad it's on others' radars. Seriously, watch two NBs in full speed setups try to land DW light attacks or Concealed on each other. They're often missing point blank yet landing their same melee swipe from across the screen.

Joy_Division wrote: »

I don't know what to do here. My general feeling is that it is too easy for average players to stall out fights and not die. But Static is right in that there is so much offense that if we don;t have things like Rallying Cry, high mobility, and the very things that make it easy for average players not to die, we will explode.

Nobody is going to explode unless they refuse to adapt via defensive investment. Players have been spoiled with free face tanking while running nigh full damage for years, turning every single defensive action you can take into a triple overpowered low hp panic button. The damage level in this meta is fine so long as risk is being taken, so everything except MagSorcs and ranged proc stack gankers (who are usually NBs).

Bushido2513 · July 17

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Players love the following far too much for them to ever get properly balanced without game destroying amounts of backlash from the community:
- The generically easy to access speed/mobility.
- The free damage/mitigation/healing.
- Proc sets.
- The free sustain (thanks to hybridization, allowing players to utilize both resources giving them an effective (minimum) resource pool of 40k+ max resources with a combined effective regen of 5k+ to spam their abilities as much as they want and never run out).

Nailing Undeath was a huge step towards addressing your 2nd point. I already made a thread on proc sets for your 3rd point, and encourage everyone to take a more serious look at burst procs like Tarnished, which have far reaching effects on the meta. Many of the endless sustain problems are in the red cp tree, hopefully the Druid's Resurgence nerf helps the 4th.

To the 1st I was already considering a "hear me out" type post on speed creep and how Expedition and Celerity break the game, I'm glad it's on others' radars. Seriously, watch two NBs in full speed setups try to land DW light attacks or Concealed on each other. They're often missing point blank yet landing their same melee swipe from across the screen.

Joy_Division wrote: »

I don't know what to do here. My general feeling is that it is too easy for average players to stall out fights and not die. But Static is right in that there is so much offense that if we don;t have things like Rallying Cry, high mobility, and the very things that make it easy for average players not to die, we will explode.

Nobody is going to explode unless they refuse to adapt via defensive investment. Players have been spoiled with free face tanking while running nigh full damage for years, turning every single defensive action you can take into a triple overpowered low hp panic button. The damage level in this meta is fine so long as risk is being taken, so everything except MagSorcs and ranged proc stack gankers (who are usually NBs).

Nobody is definitely exploding with cross heals going on as well. I feel like some are echoing what I've been saying about where ZOS is directing the game and their ultimate vision vs what some here may want and how that does and doesn't fit in.

StaticWave · July 17

Jsmalls wrote: »

Resistant champion star is an option. Of course it comes with a damage loss (as becoming more Tanky should).

I'll agree that Resistant CP star is lacking in strength. The 5 pc bonus for Crit resist is 1650, so according to their breakdown of other comparable stats it should be around 820~.

7x impen, plus base crit resist, and resistant CP star should be plenty of crit resist.

That being said I wouldn't choose 10% crit resist over the damage stars offered, but it's an option.

It is simply not enough. This is my current build on stamsorc:

I’m in 5 med, 2 heavy, 1 light. My resistances back bar fully buffed are 25k armor and around 3.2k crit resist. I’m also in 3 defensive CPs (Focused Mending, Iron Clad, and Duelist Rebuff). I also have Major Vitality to boost my healing. I run 3x Swift as well so when fully buffed, my non-sprint movement speed sits at 146%, and my sprint speed is 211%, which is 11% over the speed cap.

So basically I’m super fast, have a decent amount of healing modifiers, and have enough tankiness for a medium armor build, yet when a NB with Tarnish proc , a DK, or a magsorc enters the fight, there is a high chance that I will explode if I don’t kite.

Next patch vamp 3 is getting nerfed too, so that’s another hit to surviving outnumbered situations. The consequences of nerfing Undeath without addressing damage will be:

1) People will build even tankier to survive
2) People will build full speed to run away from fights
3) People will group up because it’s harder to survive alone

There is a very high chance all 3 will happen simultaneously.

Bushido2513 · July 17

StaticWave wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

Resistant champion star is an option. Of course it comes with a damage loss (as becoming more Tanky should).

I'll agree that Resistant CP star is lacking in strength. The 5 pc bonus for Crit resist is 1650, so according to their breakdown of other comparable stats it should be around 820~.

7x impen, plus base crit resist, and resistant CP star should be plenty of crit resist.

That being said I wouldn't choose 10% crit resist over the damage stars offered, but it's an option.

It is simply not enough. This is my current build on stamsorc:

I’m in 5 med, 2 heavy, 1 light. My resistances back bar fully buffed are 25k armor and around 3.2k crit resist. I’m also in 3 defensive CPs (Focused Mending, Iron Clad, and Duelist Rebuff). I also have Major Vitality to boost my healing. I run 3x Swift as well so when fully buffed, my non-sprint movement speed sits at 146%, and my sprint speed is 211%, which is 11% over the speed cap.

So basically I’m super fast, have a decent amount of healing modifiers, and have enough tankiness for a medium armor build, yet when a NB with Tarnish proc , a DK, or a magsorc enters the fight, there is a high chance that I will explode if I don’t kite.

Next patch vamp 3 is getting nerfed too, so that’s another hit to surviving outnumbered situations. The consequences of nerfing Undeath without addressing damage will be:

1) People will build even tankier to survive
2) People will build full speed to run away from fights
3) People will group up because it’s harder to survive alone

There is a very high chance all 3 will happen simultaneously.

Well yes if a few things hit at once I get towards explosion and I'm tankier than most. But then we're talking about nerfing ward?

xylena_lazarow · July 17

StaticWave wrote: »

1) People will build even tankier to survive
2) People will build full speed to run away from fights
3) People will group up because it’s harder to survive alone

1) good thing, if you want to survive, you build for it, no more free face tanking for DD builds
2) good thing, if players are forced to run away, that means they couldn't stalemate the fight
3) no change, surviving alone will continue to mean playing NB or Sorc

StaticWave · July 17

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

Resistant champion star is an option. Of course it comes with a damage loss (as becoming more Tanky should).

I'll agree that Resistant CP star is lacking in strength. The 5 pc bonus for Crit resist is 1650, so according to their breakdown of other comparable stats it should be around 820~.

7x impen, plus base crit resist, and resistant CP star should be plenty of crit resist.

That being said I wouldn't choose 10% crit resist over the damage stars offered, but it's an option.

It is simply not enough. This is my current build on stamsorc:

I’m in 5 med, 2 heavy, 1 light. My resistances back bar fully buffed are 25k armor and around 3.2k crit resist. I’m also in 3 defensive CPs (Focused Mending, Iron Clad, and Duelist Rebuff). I also have Major Vitality to boost my healing. I run 3x Swift as well so when fully buffed, my non-sprint movement speed sits at 146%, and my sprint speed is 211%, which is 11% over the speed cap.

So basically I’m super fast, have a decent amount of healing modifiers, and have enough tankiness for a medium armor build, yet when a NB with Tarnish proc , a DK, or a magsorc enters the fight, there is a high chance that I will explode if I don’t kite.

Next patch vamp 3 is getting nerfed too, so that’s another hit to surviving outnumbered situations. The consequences of nerfing Undeath without addressing damage will be:

1) People will build even tankier to survive
2) People will build full speed to run away from fights
3) People will group up because it’s harder to survive alone

There is a very high chance all 3 will happen simultaneously.

Well yes if a few things hit at once I get towards explosion and I'm tankier than most. But then we're talking about nerfing ward?

We’re talking about how nerfing Rallying Cry without addressing the excessive damage will inevitably make everyone build tankier just to survive. Rallying Cry is a necessity in this meta. When almost everyone can reach 90%-100% crit damage with practically zero set investments, while also sitting at 7k+ WD and having access to buffs/debuffs that were once hard to get (Major Berserk, Minor Vul, etc.), it makes you rethink whether Rallying Cry deserves a nerf.

If you fight outnumbered frequently, you will know that it’s becoming harder to survive outnumbered over the years due to this power creep. It has nothing to do with the population getting more skillful or me getting hammered by multiple ppl. I’ve tanked 3 ppl in the past without breaking a sweat and have fought against many names that still play to this day. They have not improved enough to threaten me in a 1v1. What’s changed is they now have access to more buffs/debuffs and access to more damage due to the power creep that has been unaddressed for years. A nerf to defense also requires a nerf to offense to keep things in check.

Also, did you know a 55k max mag build doesn’t need Rallying Cry? Ward is that tanky. Magsorc is the ONLY class I know that doesn’t need to run Rallying Cry or stack 40k HP to survive in Cyrodiil. All it has to do is wear Wretched for 2k recoveries, stack 55k+ max mag, and now it has a 16k Ward with a decent burst heal and practically unlimited sustain to spam Ward.

StaticWave · July 17

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

That being said there are extremes to everything.
Polar Wind isn't broken at 30k health.

Ward isn't broken at 45k Magicka (without Rallying cry).

This is my bias on the conversation.

@Jsmalls and I completely agree with you. BUT then again, most people don’t want to gimp themselves by playing fair, so instead of running a 45k max mag build without Rallying Cry, they will instead run a 45k max mag build WITH Rallying Cry, or a 55k+ max mag build.

It’s just like with proc sets. We can’t stop people from running them, no matter how much we try to tell them that procs make the game unfun. So how do you suggest we go about this issue?

Balance sets properly. There is no reason Rallying Cry should have 2x 5 piece set bonuses as it's 5 pc bonus.

Give it a cooldown (10 seconds active time, 15 second cooldown like Briarheart).

Or hit each value with a 0.60 or so modifier. 180 Weapon damage, 1000 crit resist. Considering it DOES have a proc condition, it's just one that takes no effort to upkeep.

The concept for the set is cool, stronger when you aren't in a large group. But in practice in a 1v1 situation (which do occur a lot) the player not running this set is at a disadvantage.

The entire game needs an Item Set balance patch. Too many are useless and a handful are over performing.

But without Rallying Cry, I am literally exploding in 2s. Even with Rallying Cry I’m taking 15k bows to the face and 4k Tarnish procs. I’m basically forced to play with 45k+ HP because that’s the only way to survive without Rallying Cry.

This is the other side of the coin that ppl don’t mention. There is simply TOO MUCH damage going around. To nerf defense without nerfing damage will just cause balance to be completely lopsided.

I don't run rallying and I don't explode and have decent damage.

Please come to PC NA in your exact build. Most console transfers I’ve talked to say damage is too much on PC NA. You WILL experience the same thing.

StaticWave · July 17

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

1) People will build even tankier to survive
2) People will build full speed to run away from fights
3) People will group up because it’s harder to survive alone

1) good thing, if you want to survive, you build for it, no more free face tanking for DD builds
2) good thing, if players are forced to run away, that means they couldn't stalemate the fight
3) no change, surviving alone will continue to mean playing NB or Sorc

1) Which is what people are doing right now. 40k+ HP is a consequence of PvP having too much free damage. Conveniently, 40k+ HP builds still achieve 7k WD. There’s practically no trade-offs.

2) They’re forced to run away in an outnumbered situation. It’s been HARDER to face tank in the recent meta compared to previous metas (except on a few classes). That’s a known fact among 1vXers and small-scalers

3) I’m pretty sure most classes can survive in the past. Now you’re limited to 2-3 classes.

People don’t seem to die because they build full tank and do just enough damage to kill an average player. It’s a consequence of having too much free damage which allows them to abuse stacking defense. A build with 40k HP, 7k WD, 20k pen, 90% crit dmg, and Major Berserk/Minor Vul didn’t exist in the past. It does now, and it exists because ZOS has allowed power creep to reach this far.

xylena_lazarow · July 17

StaticWave wrote: »

A build with 40k HP, 7k WD, 20k pen, 90% crit dmg, and Major Berserk/Minor Vul didn’t exist in the past. It does now, and it exists because ZOS has allowed power creep to reach this far.

Those stats seem normal to me other than the hp inflation. None of that is anywhere near as insane as the 30% on Undeath we have just been freed from. Game could probably use a WoW style stat squish, or restoring 2014 soft caps.

StaticWave · July 17

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

A build with 40k HP, 7k WD, 20k pen, 90% crit dmg, and Major Berserk/Minor Vul didn’t exist in the past. It does now, and it exists because ZOS has allowed power creep to reach this far.

Those stats seem normal to me other than the hp inflation. None of that is anywhere near as insane as the 30% on Undeath we have just been freed from. Game could probably use a WoW style stat squish, or restoring 2014 soft caps.

They are definitely not normal lol. Find me a build in the past that had these stats.

Bushido2513 · July 17

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

Resistant champion star is an option. Of course it comes with a damage loss (as becoming more Tanky should).

I'll agree that Resistant CP star is lacking in strength. The 5 pc bonus for Crit resist is 1650, so according to their breakdown of other comparable stats it should be around 820~.

7x impen, plus base crit resist, and resistant CP star should be plenty of crit resist.

That being said I wouldn't choose 10% crit resist over the damage stars offered, but it's an option.

It is simply not enough. This is my current build on stamsorc:

I’m in 5 med, 2 heavy, 1 light. My resistances back bar fully buffed are 25k armor and around 3.2k crit resist. I’m also in 3 defensive CPs (Focused Mending, Iron Clad, and Duelist Rebuff). I also have Major Vitality to boost my healing. I run 3x Swift as well so when fully buffed, my non-sprint movement speed sits at 146%, and my sprint speed is 211%, which is 11% over the speed cap.

So basically I’m super fast, have a decent amount of healing modifiers, and have enough tankiness for a medium armor build, yet when a NB with Tarnish proc , a DK, or a magsorc enters the fight, there is a high chance that I will explode if I don’t kite.

Next patch vamp 3 is getting nerfed too, so that’s another hit to surviving outnumbered situations. The consequences of nerfing Undeath without addressing damage will be:

1) People will build even tankier to survive
2) People will build full speed to run away from fights
3) People will group up because it’s harder to survive alone

There is a very high chance all 3 will happen simultaneously.

Well yes if a few things hit at once I get towards explosion and I'm tankier than most. But then we're talking about nerfing ward?

We’re talking about how nerfing Rallying Cry without addressing the excessive damage will inevitably make everyone build tankier just to survive. Rallying Cry is a necessity in this meta. When almost everyone can reach 90%-100% crit damage with practically zero set investments, while also sitting at 7k+ WD and having access to buffs/debuffs that were once hard to get (Major Berserk, Minor Vul, etc.), it makes you rethink whether Rallying Cry deserves a nerf.

If you fight outnumbered frequently, you will know that it’s becoming harder to survive outnumbered over the years due to this power creep. It has nothing to do with the population getting more skillful or me getting hammered by multiple ppl. I’ve tanked 3 ppl in the past without breaking a sweat and have fought against many names that still play to this day. They have not improved enough to threaten me in a 1v1. What’s changed is they now have access to more buffs/debuffs and access to more damage due to the power creep that has been unaddressed for years. A nerf to defense also requires a nerf to offense to keep things in check.

Also, did you know a 55k max mag build doesn’t need Rallying Cry? Ward is that tanky. Magsorc is the ONLY class I know that doesn’t need to run Rallying Cry or stack 40k HP to survive in Cyrodiil. All it has to do is wear Wretched for 2k recoveries, stack 55k+ max mag, and now it has a 16k Ward with a decent burst heal and practically unlimited sustain to spam Ward.

Well yes that is true especially if you're looking to play competitively. I think we're in a place where a noticeable amount of players are willing to trade damage for defense.

Rallying cry is definitely too stat dense and that's one we can see in a mathematical comparison to all other sets. There's just nothing really like it and it pretty much goes on every build which is a bad sign for game development.

And yes I play outnumbered and watch others at the same and it's clear that damage is out of control in those scenarios which is why I've just figured ZOS decided to go group v group where you then don't usually have enough damage when cross heals are around.

So if you nerf rally then yeah I think solo or outnumbered players will have to rethink some things. I don't use it but admittedly I have a little less damage than someone that does, in favor of a playstyle that suits me

I'm curious to see how this will all work with the upcoming changes. Players will take more damage and I imagine that ward may see a change after that.

I am no fond of the lazy design of the ward change and have just gotten used to it over time. I could see them putting a cap on the top end which is what's generating some of the issues I think others are having.

StaticWave · July 17

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

A build with 40k HP, 7k WD, 20k pen, 90% crit dmg, and Major Berserk/Minor Vul didn’t exist in the past. It does now, and it exists because ZOS has allowed power creep to reach this far.

Those stats seem normal to me other than the hp inflation. None of that is anywhere near as insane as the 30% on Undeath we have just been freed from. Game could probably use a WoW style stat squish, or restoring 2014 soft caps.

For example this is a 1vX clip of mine 4 years ago during the Harrowstorm patch:

https://youtu.be/E_7a0Ys3TOE?si=AHm6G1rz8gge2L9R

I was in 5 med 2 heavy with Fury and New Moon, basically the meta build for stam players back then.

My max weapon damage was 5.9k, max HP 25k, max stam 29k, and max mag 13k. I also ran super low recoveries at 1.2k fully buffed. I also didn’t have Major Breach or Minor Force.

Basically I was in a full damage build back then. In today’s meta, these stats would be considered average. My current stamsorc build has 100% crit dmg, 19-20k pen, 7.2k weapon dmg fully buffed, 26k max stam, 19k max mag, 33k HP, 1.7k regen of each.

You know the difference between that vid and now? You could run a full damage build and 1vX like that no problem. Good luck doing that now without investing into defense. So I don’t think your statement regarding players having to build defense is accurate. Players did build defense. That’s why we’re seeing so many high health builds running around.

Bushido2513 · July 17

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

That being said there are extremes to everything.
Polar Wind isn't broken at 30k health.

Ward isn't broken at 45k Magicka (without Rallying cry).

This is my bias on the conversation.

@Jsmalls and I completely agree with you. BUT then again, most people don’t want to gimp themselves by playing fair, so instead of running a 45k max mag build without Rallying Cry, they will instead run a 45k max mag build WITH Rallying Cry, or a 55k+ max mag build.

It’s just like with proc sets. We can’t stop people from running them, no matter how much we try to tell them that procs make the game unfun. So how do you suggest we go about this issue?

Balance sets properly. There is no reason Rallying Cry should have 2x 5 piece set bonuses as it's 5 pc bonus.

Give it a cooldown (10 seconds active time, 15 second cooldown like Briarheart).

Or hit each value with a 0.60 or so modifier. 180 Weapon damage, 1000 crit resist. Considering it DOES have a proc condition, it's just one that takes no effort to upkeep.

The concept for the set is cool, stronger when you aren't in a large group. But in practice in a 1v1 situation (which do occur a lot) the player not running this set is at a disadvantage.

The entire game needs an Item Set balance patch. Too many are useless and a handful are over performing.

But without Rallying Cry, I am literally exploding in 2s. Even with Rallying Cry I’m taking 15k bows to the face and 4k Tarnish procs. I’m basically forced to play with 45k+ HP because that’s the only way to survive without Rallying Cry.

This is the other side of the coin that ppl don’t mention. There is simply TOO MUCH damage going around. To nerf defense without nerfing damage will just cause balance to be completely lopsided.

I don't run rallying and I don't explode and have decent damage.

Please come to PC NA in your exact build. Most console transfers I’ve talked to say damage is too much on PC NA. You WILL experience the same thing.

I would totally do it if I didn't have to start from scratch. That being said I should be clear and say that I don't explode often but definitely have varying trouble with coordinated hard hitting attacks as anyone would. If there's no los or I'm slow to react then yeah it could end badly. I usually just try to stay at the ready for large damage spikes from nowhere and be highly evasive.

xylena_lazarow · July 17

StaticWave wrote: »

You know the difference between that vid and now? You could run a full damage build and 1vX like that no problem. Good luck doing that now without investing into defense. So I don’t think your statement regarding players having to build defense is accurate. Players did build defense. That’s why we’re seeing so many high health builds running around.

You're underestimating back bar SnB here, I'd argue it was the Undeath of that meta, it ubiquitously compressed a ton of defensive power for relatively low opportunity cost. You specifically chose a pure defensive skill, Shuffle, over running the SnB Major Breach skill for more damage. So I'd say your defensive investment then is comparable to defensive investments in builds these days, where most defensive investment is compressed into Undeath and a few minor tradeoffs.

For example, your current build could easily be described as 3 damage sets, ET and RC certainly offer more than damage, but nobody is calling those tank sets. You're not even running high hp, so Undeath is doing a lot of the work. If you go back further, a few metas before, we were all doing this with Troll King.

Amottica · July 17

Jsmalls wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

That being said there are extremes to everything.
Polar Wind isn't broken at 30k health.

Ward isn't broken at 45k Magicka (without Rallying cry).

This is my bias on the conversation.

@Jsmalls and I completely agree with you. BUT then again, most people don’t want to gimp themselves by playing fair, so instead of running a 45k max mag build without Rallying Cry, they will instead run a 45k max mag build WITH Rallying Cry, or a 55k+ max mag build.

It’s just like with proc sets. We can’t stop people from running them, no matter how much we try to tell them that procs make the game unfun. So how do you suggest we go about this issue?

Balance sets properly. There is no reason Rallying Cry should have 2x 5 piece set bonuses as it's 5 pc bonus.

Give it a cooldown (10 seconds active time, 15 second cooldown like Briarheart).

Or hit each value with a 0.60 or so modifier. 180 Weapon damage, 1000 crit resist. Considering it DOES have a proc condition, it's just one that takes no effort to upkeep.

The concept for the set is cool, stronger when you aren't in a large group. But in practice in a 1v1 situation (which do occur a lot) the player not running this set is at a disadvantage.

The entire game needs an Item Set balance patch. Too many are useless and a handful are over performing.

and that is just it. This is no different than when I hunt NB gankers, as they tend to be inexperienced. It is great pulling them out of stealth, and they seem to freak out because I rendered their cloak useless.

An experienced NB would not have that problem; they are less likely to try to gank. They are not on trick ponies and know how to put together a good build and use all their skills.

The inexperienced sorc is not much different. They are not difficult to kill, and Ward does not put them in god mode.

Bushido2513 · July 18

Amottica wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

That being said there are extremes to everything.
Polar Wind isn't broken at 30k health.

Ward isn't broken at 45k Magicka (without Rallying cry).

This is my bias on the conversation.

@Jsmalls and I completely agree with you. BUT then again, most people don’t want to gimp themselves by playing fair, so instead of running a 45k max mag build without Rallying Cry, they will instead run a 45k max mag build WITH Rallying Cry, or a 55k+ max mag build.

It’s just like with proc sets. We can’t stop people from running them, no matter how much we try to tell them that procs make the game unfun. So how do you suggest we go about this issue?

Balance sets properly. There is no reason Rallying Cry should have 2x 5 piece set bonuses as it's 5 pc bonus.

Give it a cooldown (10 seconds active time, 15 second cooldown like Briarheart).

Or hit each value with a 0.60 or so modifier. 180 Weapon damage, 1000 crit resist. Considering it DOES have a proc condition, it's just one that takes no effort to upkeep.

The concept for the set is cool, stronger when you aren't in a large group. But in practice in a 1v1 situation (which do occur a lot) the player not running this set is at a disadvantage.

The entire game needs an Item Set balance patch. Too many are useless and a handful are over performing.

and that is just it. This is no different than when I hunt NB gankers, as they tend to be inexperienced. It is great pulling them out of stealth, and they seem to freak out because I rendered their cloak useless.

An experienced NB would not have that problem; they are less likely to try to gank. They are not on trick ponies and know how to put together a good build and use all their skills.

The inexperienced sorc is not much different. They are not difficult to kill, and Ward does not put them in god mode.

I was just thinking this as I was playing. You can really tell the sorcs that are just trying out sorcs and there are a decent amount of them. Bad resource management, DB or Meteor instead of overloads, simple streaks, rushing into the middle of combat while not being able to tank the damage, and so on. I could see having a bad time with running into one or more sorcs that know what they are doing, ouch.

Alchimiste1 · July 18

DB is very viable on msorc, meteor is mostly for fun

Turtle_Bot · July 18

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Players love the following far too much for them to ever get properly balanced without game destroying amounts of backlash from the community:
- The generically easy to access speed/mobility.
- The free damage/mitigation/healing.
- Proc sets.
- The free sustain (thanks to hybridization, allowing players to utilize both resources giving them an effective (minimum) resource pool of 40k+ max resources with a combined effective regen of 5k+ to spam their abilities as much as they want and never run out).

Nailing Undeath was a huge step towards addressing your 2nd point. I already made a thread on proc sets for your 3rd point, and encourage everyone to take a more serious look at burst procs like Tarnished, which have far reaching effects on the meta. Many of the endless sustain problems are in the red cp tree, hopefully the Druid's Resurgence nerf helps the 4th.

To the 1st I was already considering a "hear me out" type post on speed creep and how Expedition and Celerity break the game, I'm glad it's on others' radars. Seriously, watch two NBs in full speed setups try to land DW light attacks or Concealed on each other. They're often missing point blank yet landing their same melee swipe from across the screen.

Yep, the nerf to undeath will be a big one, waiting to see the final version of it though since it currently still seems very strong with the current stage 1 penalties.

Being stage 1 instead of stage 3 grants:
- 5% reduced cost of abilities.
- 90% less reduction to health recovery from vamp (recovery builds might become feasible again (not strong, but potentially viable), and potentially get to also use vamp for undeath 10% mitigation on top of high health recovery).
- 8% less flame damage taken.
Have to see what else happens with Undeath this PTS cycle.

The other half of point 2 still remains though, there is so much free burst damage currently available, mostly in proc sets, but some stat sets (see RC/balorgh) are also big contributors to the massive amounts of free damage everyone has.

Proc sets are in a weird spot. They are either completely overpowered or completely mediocre, there's no in-between with proc sets... Then there's the ever present issue of pull sets.

Finding a good medium for these sets would go along way to solving many balance issues (or at least allow classes to be easier to balance).
Also, sound design for these sets definitely needs to have better QC. I thought they had learnt their lesson with thunder caller (basically tarnished but a lightning strike/thunder boom instead of shattering glass), but apparently not.

I don't think the nerf to druids will do much at all to balance sustain tbh. I'm running the sorc class script on wield soul already and have no major issues with sustain (outside of greeding kills, playing poorly etc).

The reason sustain is so strong now isn't so much the red CP (although those certainly contribute to it), it's the whole concept of hybridization. Allowing players the ability to use both resources to max effectiveness, basically doubled everyone's sustain (both in up front resource pools and also in regen values) overnight, and they have been trying to find ways to balance this ever since.

As mentioned before, the change to undeath will probably more than cancel out the nerf to druids, which will result in everyone having the same sustain, but better damage or mitigation due to being able to run damage or mitigation options on scripts instead of druids.

The first point about speed has been a sore spot for sorc mains for a very long time now (especially when NB got given free access to all the speed sorcs had (and more) on top of everything else the class got, so it has definitely been on players radars for a while (ever since wild hunt mythic really, but CP 2.0 and other easy sources definitely accelerated the issue).

Most players of other classes just denied it being an issue, because they didn't want to give up their ability to easily catch sorcs that couldn't realistically defend themselves when inevitably caught (not helped by stamsorc synergizing with procsets the best of any class in the game which made sorc as a class seem stronger than it actually was). So it has just been an issue that has been allowed to continue to grow worse (until we reached what we have now with huge positional desync issues despite the new servers and back-end updates ZOS has done over the past couple of years).

As I pointed out a while ago, it was part of the reason sorc mains asked for some sort of reliable burst heal (not ward, but something) for the class, since all classes could easily speed match sorc (especially the slower magsorc) without giving up anything to get that speed, it was only fair that sorc got some sort of reliable heal (again, not ward, but a heal similar to heal soul) that could be easily slotted without the downsides of exchange or pets without also having to give up the entire build to get it.

What was very telling about how bad the issue of speed creep had gotten, was that even original Mara's Balm was not enough to make sorc equal to the other classes, despite MB being the most broken defensive proc set we have ever seen (even to this day none of the current sets, or even abilities like ward or polar, match what MB used to be, it was insane how overpowered that set was, literally a zero button god-mode proc set).

xylena_lazarow · July 18

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

I don't think the nerf to druids will do much at all to balance sustain tbh.

Here's hoping it deals with some of the more degenerate permablock (and Esoteric Greaves) setups. These builds were also some of the biggest Undeath abusers, should be able to melt them down now.