Tarnished Nightmare and ranged burst proc stacking need to go

xylena_lazarow · July 17

I engage some enemies to brawl.
I get a broken bottle smashed on the back of my head, losing half my hp.
I pop a detect and turn around to engage the archer, but they are long gone.

I try again to engage some enemies to brawl.
I get a broken bottle smashed on the back of my head, losing half my hp.
It's the same damn archer 8 seconds later...

The worst thing in PvP right now isn't MagSorcs or tank meta, it's ranged burst proc stacking. One single invisible long range Bow Heavy, and you'll chunk anyone in the game for half their hp (or more) every 8 seconds, absolutely zero risk, all reward, and anyone trying to brawl is constantly being hit by this crap. The main culprit is Tarnished Nightmare, which if you ask me, really needs both the Savage Werewolf treatment to only proc in melee, and the burst proc anti-stack delay treatment ZOS once had a curated list for. Anthelmir and Winterborn too. I absoultely cannot believe with this game's long history of whining and crying over procs playing the game for you, that this doesn't get more hate.

Firstmep · July 17

Sadly zos is nerfing or I guess fixing even more counterplay to cloak this patch.
Heavens forbid the 20k hp bow blade sniping you form down yonder shouldn't be able to get away 100% of the time.
Thing is, these players are only annoying when you already fighting someone else, and of course they will only engage you then as well.

xylena_lazarow · July 17

Firstmep wrote: »

Thing is, these players are only annoying when you already fighting someone else

Right, so 99% of the time. Yeah if you catch one of them with a detect they'll die, but they need to screw up pretty badly for that to happen, even an average ranged NB knows how to get away before the enemy gets close enough, to say nothing of the ones sitting inaccessible on the roof or inside zergs covered by the safety of 20+ other allies.

Durham · July 17

This set in my opinion has been one of the worst additions to PVP ever. This set is used primarily by the 2 (s-tier) classes. Which currently makes up over 50% of the PVP population. Currently, balance is an absolute mess in PVP and this set does nothing but just adds frustration and annoying glass breaking sounds on you in every fight.

xylena_lazarow · July 17

Players must not realize this is what's killing them. The 6k Tarnished on its own doesn't look as scary as seeing 60k worth of MDW bleed ticks, but those 60 ticks happened over a full two minutes from a highly obvious melee brawler, not from an invisible archer 41m away in an instantaneous one button 20k burst. They see multiple attacks happening at once and blame "macros" or "scripts" when it is fully within the game, and presumably intended, simply proc sets.

SaffronCitrusflower · July 17

...not to mention how god awful the sound from getting hit with the set is.

DrNukenstein · July 17

Tarnished nightmare should do reduced/no damage outside of 8m and only trigger off direct damage.

And it's okay to reinforce the instant proc law on the following sets
-Tarnished nightmare
-Knightslayer
-Deadlands assassin

The optimal proc build is 1 instant and 1 delayed proc, anything beyond that is silly circus stuff. It's true, and today you can get those juicy procs in 4 slots and use the other 10 to become a stats god.

This is one of those things like heal ward, or constant major berserk and minor expedition for one skill slot, or (my beloved) old Caluurion that is only fun for the people using it.

StaticWave · July 17

1 Snipe cast from stealth crits for 8k, which procs Tarnish for another 3-4k. 11-12k HP gone instantly with 1 skill. Not to mention Snipe having a cast time and can be followed up with another skill afterwards.

And they wonder why everyone is running around Cyrodiil with 40k+ HP.

Firstmep · July 17

StaticWave wrote: »

1 Snipe cast from stealth crits for 8k, which procs Tarnish for another 3-4k. 11-12k HP gone instantly with 1 skill. Not to mention Snipe having a cast time and can be followed up with another skill afterwards.

And they wonder why everyone is running around Cyrodiil with 40k+ HP.

Tbh it's really cloak that enables this kind of playstyle. You try this on any other class and ull be toast quick fast.

xylena_lazarow · July 17

Firstmep wrote: »

Tbh it's really cloak that enables this kind of playstyle. You try this on any other class and ull be toast quick fast.

Bow StamSorcs do it pretty effectively, once saw a weirdo Stage 4 vamp Warden doing it.

DrNukenstein · July 17

Firstmep wrote: »

Tbh it's really cloak that enables this kind of playstyle. You try this on any other class and ull be toast quick fast.

Most magsorcs are vamp 3 so they have vamp 1 crouch. That is all you need to gank if you are ranged.

NuarBlack · July 18

Took a break for a bit and couldn't believe ZoS added a set like Tarnished Nightmare. Like what was the point of nerfing Viper, Red Mountain, Caalurions, etc then?

Oh to sell DLCs

Turtle_Bot · July 18

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

Tbh it's really cloak that enables this kind of playstyle. You try this on any other class and ull be toast quick fast.

Bow StamSorcs do it pretty effectively, once saw a weirdo Stage 4 vamp Warden doing it.

I've seen necro doing this too, it times really well with blast bones (assuming BB is sober when cast) for some insane (and super easy and repeatable) burst damage that massively debuffs healing on top of the burst.

Turtle_Bot · July 18

TBH I thought ZOS had learnt their lesson after they fixed the Thundercaller set that had this exact same issue (was a boom of thunder instead of shattering glass, but the same issue of the sound just being far too loud and sudden) and hadn't designed a set with the same type of sound (loud/sharp/sudden) until Tarnished.

Apparently not it seems with the sets sound being left as is for this long.

xylena_lazarow · July 18

NuarBlack wrote: »

Oh to sell DLCs

Sadly that's probably exactly why they still haven't touched Tarnished or Anthelmir.

They could at least do something about the inexcusably loud and jarring sound effect on Tarnished.

Quethrosar · July 18

leave my pve set alone !

xylena_lazarow · July 18

Quethrosar wrote: »

leave my pve set alone !

Well, one thing they could do is add the "against monsters" clause, then I think we're both happy.

Alchimiste1 · July 20

others have said it, but I will say it again because I agree. Tarnished should only work in melee range.

There is no reason someone could be in cloak from 20 meters away and still be procing tarnished nightmare.

Udrath · July 20

The worse part is that it’s an AOE. This set and the giga range chain pull ability are pretty annoying

silky_soft · July 20

All damage proc should only proc from initial direct cast of skill. Not via "dealing damage", which can be a dot 20s later. Heck, procs should have thier own 1s gcd. 1 proc per second. But that will never happen because they like heaps of code being dumped at once then blame us for lag.

Otherwise they should un nerf selene delay, viper doing dot and return the vamp proc to camo Hunter.

xylena_lazarow · July 20

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

There is no reason someone could be in cloak from 20 meters away and still be procing tarnished nightmare.

You mean 41 meters away. Literally untouchable unless they go braindead mid fight. Half your opponent's health in one invisible button, to say nothing of actual good players that can combo instakill ganks with it. I haven't seen a build "play the game for you" to this extent since players were being nuked by random untelegraphed 15k Skoria procs.

xylena_lazarow · July 20

silky_soft wrote: »

Otherwise they should un nerf selene delay, viper doing dot and return the vamp proc to camo Hunter.

The design of Tarnished also craps all over previous design decisions. It's pre-nerf Viper but also AoE. It stacks with other burst procs, completely forgetting the curated list proc sets that delay each other. It's instant, unlike the delayed Cindermoth set that was released in the same DLC. It has a much shorter cooldown than similar strength procs that are 12-15 seconds. It's maximum range like pre-nerf Savage Werewolf that everyone loved so much. It does obscene damage from ranged stealth like those Inferno heavies or Overload Crystal Crushing stacks that had to be nerfed.

I didn't think this set would be a problem at release, it doesn't look overpowered on its own, but it's the centerpiece of some of the most horrendously degenerate unfun garbage I've ever seen in a decade of broken PvP.

monkiie · July 20

Idk about you, but I love being sniped and crushing shocked from 50 meters away and getting chunked for half my hp. It makes every fight really enjoyable. Please don't nerf it zenimax!!!!

bladenick · July 21

with undeath nerfed, the range burst will horrible in next version BG, bow NB and MagSorc will dominate BG.

If we can't beat them, the only chioce just join them, switch to bow nb/sorc

silky_soft · July 21

This also all ties into the free ranged buff from battlespirit that shouldn't even be there.

xylena_lazarow · July 22

Was able to catch one of these today in CMX, while dealing with a MagSorc the NB hit me for over 16k burst from a one button ranged stealth proc stack (the bow heavy was actually 6k but most of it got eaten by the DK armor shield). The Anthelmir was slightly within the quarter second human reaction limit, maybe I just need to git gud.

Either way, that's over 10k instant ranged damage just from wearing proc sets. There are no stat sets in existence that can add an instant 10k damage to a bow heavy attack like that. This is what people mean when they say "procs play the game for you" because adding 10k to your burst normally means you have pressed more buttons. It's similar to the Hardened Ward problem, where an insane amount of power is concentrated into the funny button.

Revokus · July 22

Came back to Cyro after a long break and I hate this glass sound so much already. It's broken the damage is way to high almost feels like oblivion damage out of nowhere.

katorga · July 23

Firstmep wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

1 Snipe cast from stealth crits for 8k, which procs Tarnish for another 3-4k. 11-12k HP gone instantly with 1 skill. Not to mention Snipe having a cast time and can be followed up with another skill afterwards.

And they wonder why everyone is running around Cyrodiil with 40k+ HP.

Tbh it's really cloak that enables this kind of playstyle. You try this on any other class and ull be toast quick fast.

crushing shock, winterborn, tarnished....spam until frags proc. Works generally well to harvest kills around big fights.

NB is better though....spam crushing, into merciless resolve. Merciless hits twice as hard as a frags proc for me. Same race, sets, build.

Basically a two button build.

ZDunlain · July 24

This is beyond annoying, being ganked by 2 nb at the same time at range with this set is super infuriating.

You literally cant do anything, when you try to go for one of them just cloack and stay away. And meanwhile this set carrying people.

Bushido2513 · July 24

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Was able to catch one of these today in CMX, while dealing with a MagSorc the NB hit me for over 16k burst from a one button ranged stealth proc stack (the bow heavy was actually 6k but most of it got eaten by the DK armor shield). The Anthelmir was slightly within the quarter second human reaction limit, maybe I just need to git gud.

Either way, that's over 10k instant ranged damage just from wearing proc sets. There are no stat sets in existence that can add an instant 10k damage to a bow heavy attack like that. This is what people mean when they say "procs play the game for you" because adding 10k to your burst normally means you have pressed more buttons. It's similar to the Hardened Ward problem, where an insane amount of power is concentrated into the funny button.

This whole situation is weird and funny because I feel like now you need a hardened ward or all the other tankiness just to survive all the tarnish and other procs.

But if you nerf tarnish all the tarnish users will ask how do we burst people down now?

It's like ZOS just makes bad answers to existing bad situations

xylena_lazarow · July 24

Bushido2513 wrote: »

But if you nerf tarnish all the tarnish users will ask how do we burst people down now?

By pressing buttons. Not letting your gear play the game for you.