Hardened Ward... Where player based skill can go from C-tier to S+-tier

Alchimiste1

Auldwulfe wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Auldwulfe wrote: »

Outside of extreme cases, noted above, such as 50K plus magicka --- which is easy to deal with... Hardened Ward doesn't do ANY damage... and, if they have that much magicka, they probably are running short on stamina.... crowd control, and heal through their damage .... they WILL run out of stamina


Auldwulfe

This statement is wrong. You can still have 19k+ max stam with 50k mag and have high stam sustain on the meta wretched setup.

Well then, it must not have been a meta player with it ... and since they can kill anyone with any setup, it would not have mattered what they had... I was using a Redguard necro, and not a good one -- and still managed it. And that would mean you still have to know what you are doing to use it correctly.....

Point, again, is that we should not be constantly screaming Nerf Nerf... or we WILL get another U35

Auldwulfe

I'm a bit confused. I was not talking about any player in particular.
I was simply saying your strategy to run a magsorc out of stam wouldn't work against most players

StaticWave

Joy_Division wrote: »

No doubt some players are going to like playing a class that can, after battle spirit, consistently negate 16-17K damage within the press of a single button that has no cooldown, no cast time, or no other restrictions, which can also just *poof* away at the slightest threat while zapping away at enemies with its full arsenal at max range. That they like doing that does not automatically makes possessing that capability a meaningful competitive experience for players of other classes who can't even do one of those things.

Precisely this. Just because magsorc mains think it's fun or balanced to pop a 16k Ward with a 7k crit burst heal doesn't mean other classes facing those magsorc mains will find it balanced or fun.

That is why I've urged every magsorc main in this thread to try fighting their own class on another class. It helps proving the argument on both sides and clears any bias caused by playing only 1 class.

StaticWave

Auldwulfe wrote: »

Outside of extreme cases, noted above, such as 50K plus magicka --- which is easy to deal with... Hardened Ward doesn't do ANY damage... and, if they have that much magicka, they probably are running short on stamina.... crowd control, and heal through their damage .... they WILL run out of stamina

32k HP, 51.3k mag, 25.9k, 4.2k spell damage, 17.5k pen, 93% crit damage, 34.5% crit rate, 2.1k mag regen and almost 2k stam regen. On the live server I use Shocking Soul with Major Vitality so my Ward size is 15.6k and my max crit Ward heal is 7.3k. I also use Druid script so my stam sustain is practically unlimited.

I regularly hit well-built players for 10k+ frags. Going from stamsorc to that feels like night and day difference. I don't die to a full proc DK anymore. I don't die to a Jerall user anymore. I also can kite away indefinitely if I choose to because 51k mag, 2.1k mag regen give me infinite Streaks.

This isn't even the tankinest build you can make, but I'll leave it up to you to find out.

Auldwulfe

StaticWave wrote: »

Auldwulfe wrote: »

Outside of extreme cases, noted above, such as 50K plus magicka --- which is easy to deal with... Hardened Ward doesn't do ANY damage... and, if they have that much magicka, they probably are running short on stamina.... crowd control, and heal through their damage .... they WILL run out of stamina

32k HP, 51.3k mag, 25.9k, 4.2k spell damage, 17.5k pen, 93% crit damage, 34.5% crit rate, 2.1k mag regen and almost 2k stam regen. On the live server I use Shocking Soul with Major Vitality so my Ward size is 15.6k and my max crit Ward heal is 7.3k. I also use Druid script so my stam sustain is practically unlimited.

I regularly hit well-built players for 10k+ frags. Going from stamsorc to that feels like night and day difference. I don't die to a full proc DK anymore. I don't die to a Jerall user anymore. I also can kite away indefinitely if I choose to because 51k mag, 2.1k mag regen give me infinite Streaks.

This isn't even the tankinest build you can make, but I'll leave it up to you to find out.

Judging by the sets, you are also an experienced player -- and an experienced player WILL do better -- and I never said leave it alone, I am all for a balance pass -- I am just tired of the the HUNDREDS of threads of ..... NERF... NERRRRRFFFF !!!!

A good suggestion made was to make it a mild HOT, instead of a dot -- and honestly, the Vibrant Shroud is more dangerous in a lot of situations, because you not only have an AOE burst, but it also does an AOE maim on targets... get in a ball group with one of those, and any damage you thought you were doing is even worse.......

I want the classes balanced, but there are other ways than screaming "NERF anyone who beats me"... because we CAN'T have a decent conversation to actually work out a solid counter.

There are hundreds and hundreds of threads of people screaming for nerfs on everything ... would it not be more productive to work on counters, discuss them openly, and then make a solid case to ZOS to look into it, because, right now, it's just another "nerf the people I can't beat" thread.

Then again, ANY class is difficulty with 30% damage mitigation... any ward, shield, etc...
I am waiting to see what the U43 reduction of Undeath does.... that may change a LOT of this discussion.

Auldwulfe

Pelanora

I'm pretty sure static can beat most people and that's his issue with this skill. @StaticWave

StaticWave

Bushido2513 wrote: »

@StaticWave posted a video somewhere of how someone was able to catch up to him easily while he was still using streaks. I've had several instances but don't think I bothered to record it because it wasn't really very interesting tbh.

You mean this video?

https://youtu.be/tfWfyBZbFfg

To be fair, it also proved @Alchimiste1 's point that Streaking 2x away and Dark Dealing can somewhat reset the fight. The sorc in the video did exactly that haha. I still caught up to him but you have to remember that magsorc this patch can also run Hurricane. They absolutely can stack 3x Swift with Hurricane now, they just choose not to for some reasons. Even with 3x Swift and Hurricane they're not gonna lose much damage:

StaticWave

Pelanora wrote: »

I'm pretty sure static can beat most people and that's his issue with this skill. @StaticWave

My issue with magSorc this patch is they are mobile, tanky, and deal high damage while at range. Something has to be adjusted. They can't have all 3.

Pelanora

StaticWave wrote: »

Pelanora wrote: »

I'm pretty sure static can beat most people and that's his issue with this skill. @StaticWave

My issue with magSorc this patch is they are mobile, tanky, and deal high damage while at range. Something has to be adjusted. They can't have all 3.

Well they're fixing it by making curse blockable! Job done lol

Auldwulfe

StaticWave wrote: »

Pelanora wrote: »

I'm pretty sure static can beat most people and that's his issue with this skill. @StaticWave

My issue with magSorc this patch is they are mobile, tanky, and deal high damage while at range. Something has to be adjusted. They can't have all 3.

And with the drop in Undeath, and "hopefully" the improvements they are promising in U44, it won't be so bad ..... again, I am all for a balance pass --
Just sick of the Nerf scream.... tired of seeing it as the ONLY option --- people have threads about Templars using javelin and beam, screaming it needs to be nerfed ... despite being niche, and just about one of the few ways a Templar can actually hold out against a NB Ganker, if they can survive the first hit... and so on.

Balance pass, adjustment, and logical discussions .... but blaming one skill, when the reason that skill is working well, is the combination of Undeath Passive, and a bunch of sets that carry it, isn't accomplishing anything other than making noise that ZOS has no problem ignoring....

Run it naked --- take off undeath, drop the crutch sets .... and then look for the problem....
Because, and we all know it, the moment people get their nerf on this... the next crutch play will pop up.

Auldwulfe

Auldwulfe

Here is an interesting solution that would not be an individual nerf, but more of a balance --- Make ALL skills tie off of a stat -- and, while under Battle Spirit, scaling off a stat is capped at 32K.

At that moment, having 70K magicka can let you use more, but the skill scaling stopped at 32K - you still have a reason to make that trade off, so you can do more, but it is not going to be a super power slam. Do that with EVERY skill.

On top of that, under battle spirit, you may only have 2 heals over time running on you... a third one will replace a previous one ....

And, you can do the same with the proc sets -- most scale off of weapon skill, etc... have the scaling stop at a set amount, for example, say 4K, when under battle spirit...

That would slow the proc tanks from running around, and make the huge ball groups less of an overall massive advantage.

And it would fix the issue posted here

Auldwulfe

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

@StaticWave posted a video somewhere of how someone was able to catch up to him easily while he was still using streaks. I've had several instances but don't think I bothered to record it because it wasn't really very interesting tbh.

You mean this video?

https://youtu.be/tfWfyBZbFfg

To be fair, it also proved @Alchimiste1 's point that Streaking 2x away and Dark Dealing can somewhat reset the fight. The sorc in the video did exactly that haha. I still caught up to him but you have to remember that magsorc this patch can also run Hurricane. They absolutely can stack 3x Swift with Hurricane now, they just choose not to for some reasons. Even with 3x Swift and Hurricane they're not gonna lose much damage:

Yeah the sorc can of course invest in movement speed but as you said most don't so I took that as the base for the example because that's what we usually see.

If a sorc is invested in movement speed they will still have damage and be able to get away but it's a little less damage and now with curse being blockable and vamp being not as strong I'll be curious to see how the ranged approach will shake out.

Turtle_Bot

StaticWave wrote: »

Precisely this. Just because magsorc mains think it's fun or balanced to pop a 16k Ward with a 7k crit burst heal doesn't mean other classes facing those magsorc mains will find it balanced or fun.

This is fair, I just wish that the majority of those calling for nerfs (well complete deletion of the class in some cases, such as the other recent thread on this) would see the other side of this, that forcing magsorcs to sit there and be a punching bag/free kill for every other class (even if the player on the other class is significantly less skilled than the sorc) is the complete opposite and will never be fun or balanced at all for magsorc mains (which we all saw this in U35/36 despite how desperately some will try to deny this fact).

It's why I want to see a nice middle ground to this issue found and why I like your proposed solution of making it a HoT instead of a burst heal.

As for "ranged nuke" curse will be blockable from next patch, so there goes a significant portion of magsorcs damage right there since curse applied to you simply means block in the next 3 seconds (don't even have to dodge anymore) and watch for streak.

As for "super tanky" undeath is getting hard nerfed (by 67%) so that is up to 20% more damage the sorc is taking during fights, meaning that execute range will become significantly more risky for sorcs (making them even more dependent on ward when they get low).

It remains to be seen what will happen with those 2 changes, but I think overall those changes to curse and undeath will have a fairly significant effect on magsorc.
P.S. Still want to see ward heal changed from a burst heal to a HoT, but those 2 changes should address the other "concerns" over magsorc.

StaticWave

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

As for "super tanky" undeath is getting hard nerfed (by 67%) so that is up to 20% more damage the sorc is taking during fights, meaning that execute range will become significantly more risky for sorcs (making them even more dependent on ward when they get low).

The Undeath nerf will affect everyone near execute range, but I suspect Sorc will still come out on top because of Ward mechanic. Having a nearly 16k Ward preventing your actual HP from taking damage also means you're not getting the benefit of Undeath while at full HP, which is what magsorcs are already experiencing on the live server. This change may make them easier to be executed if they drop low, so it will force them to keep up Ward more. Good magsorcs are already doing this anyway, but bad magsorcs will die slightly easier. We'll just have to wait and see what happens.

TechMaybeHic

I'm not sure how to illustrate it any better than done already, but standing before battle spirit; my wards total effective health is more than Resolving Vigor. Vigor takes 5 seconds to get that. Ward takes 1.

Bushido2513

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

I'm not sure how to illustrate it any better than done already, but standing before battle spirit; my wards total effective health is more than Resolving Vigor. Vigor takes 5 seconds to get that. Ward takes 1.

But vigor is a hot. It's not supposed to be used as a primary heal so they don't compare

TechMaybeHic

Bushido2513 wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

I'm not sure how to illustrate it any better than done already, but standing before battle spirit; my wards total effective health is more than Resolving Vigor. Vigor takes 5 seconds to get that. Ward takes 1.

But vigor is a hot. It's not supposed to be used as a primary heal so they don't compare

Its kind of why nobody has thought twice about it being higher total value than burst heals so thanks for reaffirming my point

Jabbs_Giggity

Sure we can say than replace it with another skill because there certainly are other options now. But are we really trying to kill a skill that has been a staple for the length the game has been going.

Um, do you mean like the entire Templar kit?

xylena_lazarow

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

forcing magsorcs to sit there and be a punching bag

Streak doesn't exist. Streak is not real. Streak cannot hurt you.

Like yeah the spec was underpowered for a while, but never in a decade has Sorc ever, ever, ever, ever, ever been obligated to "sit there" and if you sit there on your Sorc you are not a Sorc. The entire point of Sorc design was that yes, you will die if you try to just sit there like a DK or Plar, this was good and balanced, and now it's out the window. Sorc can indeed sit there and face tank like the brawler classes. And still teleport and nuke. When do DK and Plar get Cloak and Streak?

Turtle_Bot

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

forcing magsorcs to sit there and be a punching bag

Streak doesn't exist. Streak is not real. Streak cannot hurt you.

Like yeah the spec was underpowered for a while, but never in a decade has Sorc ever, ever, ever, ever, ever been obligated to "sit there" and if you sit there on your Sorc you are not a Sorc. The entire point of Sorc design was that yes, you will die if you try to just sit there like a DK or Plar, this was good and balanced, and now it's out the window. Sorc can indeed sit there and face tank like the brawler classes. And still teleport and nuke. When do DK and Plar get Cloak and Streak?

[snip] The only difference between you 2 is that you are against ward entirely and he is not.

Speed creep has been a huge factor in this game for years now and you know this [snip]

[edited for baiting]

Turtle_Bot

StaticWave wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

As for "super tanky" undeath is getting hard nerfed (by 67%) so that is up to 20% more damage the sorc is taking during fights, meaning that execute range will become significantly more risky for sorcs (making them even more dependent on ward when they get low).

The Undeath nerf will affect everyone near execute range, but I suspect Sorc will still come out on top because of Ward mechanic. Having a nearly 16k Ward preventing your actual HP from taking damage also means you're not getting the benefit of Undeath while at full HP, which is what magsorcs are already experiencing on the live server. This change may make them easier to be executed if they drop low, so it will force them to keep up Ward more. Good magsorcs are already doing this anyway, but bad magsorcs will die slightly easier. We'll just have to wait and see what happens.

Agreed, good magsorcs will remain unchanged outside of potentially dying in a few additional scenarios where there's slightly less room for mistakes, but the bad ones will die much easier. Have to see just how much of an impact that will have.

Quackery

Leave our shields alone! It's the only way for us magsorcs to be of any use at all during flag fights in emp keeps. I love that ZOS made magsorcs more viable in fights in tight spaces. Not everything needs adjustments - we already had a nerf to our shields a while ago, and got it restored. [snip]

[edited for baiting]

xylena_lazarow

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

[snip]

[snip] Anyway, you can keep your healy shield if we can have Cloak and Streak on all the brawler classes. It's only fair that if NB gets Dark Cloak, Plar should get Light Cloak. DK should be able to spam ground target dragon leaps the way Sorc can spam Streak. Remove all the limitations on the Arc portal.

[edited for baiting & to remove quote]

Turtle_Bot

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

[snip]

[snip] Anyway, you can keep your healy shield if we can have Cloak and Streak on all the brawler classes. It's only fair that if NB gets Dark Cloak, Plar should get Light Cloak. DK should be able to spam ground target dragon leaps the way Sorc can spam Streak. Remove all the limitations on the Arc portal.

[edited for baiting & to remove quote]

Only if the following is also done:
Fury gets made into a 500% scaling execute that cannot be dodged, is completely reliable, starts scaling at 50% and heals the caster or it gets made into an AoE, self-buffing, unique damage modifying, healing, execute that scales from 50%.
Frags becomes instant cast spammable with a guaranteed scaling increase in weapon/spell damage (as well as its own damage) for casting other abilities and has its travel time removed.
rune cage becomes an instant unblockable/undodgeable stun that heals you if the ability lands or also immobilizes the target and deals guaranteed damage even if the target breaks free.
Lightning form reflects damage on enemies and deals a burst of direct damage upon cast or grants an additional damage shield.
lightning splash restores resources, has an upfront burst of damage and inflicts a 70% snare on enemies within its AoE
Negate nullifies all but 3% of incoming damage and allows the caster to ignore enemies resistances while active with 1 morph also granting a massive shield equal to 100%+ of max health
Streak allows allies to teleport alongside the caster
Bound armor/morphs grants major prophecy/savagery for being slotted on either bar
Casting an ultimate procs a passive that grants a full heal + resource restore (complete reset) upon cast
Curse grants a unique percentage boost to shock damage taken by enemies it hits. It also interrupts enemies it hits if they are casting and heals for a portion of damage done.
the pets become single barred and 1 of them heals you every time it deals damage (the other morph has execute scaling damage)
crit surge gets its duration increased to a full minute at base.
ward gets execute scaling, increasing the healing it grants the lower the casters health is.
Applying concussed/sundered restores 500 of each resource and has their damage increased by 20%
dealing damage with a storm calling ability snares enemies.

It's only fair after all that if the brawler classes get to have all the mobility of sorc, then sorc should have all of the tools, buffs, debuffs and effects that the brawler classes have. fair is fair after all.

xylena_lazarow

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

It's only fair after all that if the brawler classes get to have all the mobility of sorc, then sorc should have all of the tools, buffs, debuffs and effects that the brawler classes have. fair is fair after all.

Agreed. Remove class spell restrictions altogether. Now everyone can choose every spell like in Skyrim. Your class becomes the color of your spells. Feels like this is getting closer to the actual vision. Play how you want!

Pelanora

This is interesting...

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/662226/absurd-damage-numbers-in-battleground#latest

StaticWave

Quackery wrote: »

Leave our shields alone! It's the only way for us magsorcs to be of any use at all during flag fights in emp keeps. I love that ZOS made magsorcs more viable in fights in tight spaces. Not everything needs adjustments - we already had a nerf to our shields a while ago, and got it restored. [snip]

[edited for baiting]

Shield needs to be nerfed. I'm tired of dealing with magsorcs everywhere I go. They require extra efforts to put down and just when you almost put them down they Streak away and reset the fight. It's obnoxious to fight them as other classes and when I hop on magsorc I feel like cheating. Nerf shield and we will have a balanced magsorc.

Tcholl

No changes coming to ward on U43, but instead they will nerf curse as a single target and make it blockable. Any thoughts on that everyone?

I personally dont like when I see them taking burst out of classes, as it adds to the tank/healing meta.

xylena_lazarow

Tcholl wrote: »

No changes coming to ward on U43, but instead they will nerf curse as a single target and make it blockable. Any thoughts on that everyone? I personally dont like when I see them taking burst out of classes.

I love this change. Nigh uncounterable burst damage has always been bad design. The stalemate Sorcs are still gonna do that, skilled damage Sorcs are gonna time their Curse explosions with their Streak or DB stun burst like the old school MagSorcs from the first few years of the game, when... yup, Curse was originally blockable lol. No damage is actually being lost, and this makes it easier for Sorcs to AoE down npc guards, which is actual nice QoL.

divnyi

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Speed creep has been a huge factor in this game for years now and you know this

Speed creep is not a thing.
Speed was a good stat since forever.
Major Exp is everyone's buff since Summerset.
Less people knew it was good back then and were skilled enough to accept LoS as their core strategy.
Now everyone knows.
That's the only thing that changed.

xylena_lazarow

divnyi wrote: »

Speed creep is not a thing

It most definitely is with easily accessible speed buffs like Celerity and all the nerfs to slow effects, but it's not like Sorcs can't slot Swift trait themselves and still outrun everyone, on top of teleporting a dozen times in a row.