Hardened Ward... Where player based skill can go from C-tier to S+-tier

Bushido2513 · July 15

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Nobody here that I know of has that data so yes otherwise I'm not willing to take fractions of player gathered data as an indicator for the whole of pvp.

Your continued rejection of data is noted. There will be more data.

And I'm not saying don't post it. I welcome all kinds of input, that's what community is for. I'm just classifying it as what it is.

Alchimiste1 · July 15

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

@Bushido2513 In your opinion do you think that ward is currently fair and balanced ?

For me personally both in the way that I use it and in all the enemies I've come up against using it, it feels fine.

Now that being said I'd like to be clear about where I think some of the issue is coming from for other players. My build and playstyle is simple. You probably can't kill me and I might be able to kill you. If I can't kill you and there's no help around then I just move on.

In regards to the way that I use ward, I'm a max mag build but I don't sell out for it. So for me I am tanky but I take damage on the regular and can't sit still by any means with more then one player. So for me it feels fine because I have to actively play the game and can't just nuke people while also being able to not die. I've also fought other ward users and if I can't kill them I just move on though I've been able to kill enough that I don't feel like I did when I saw an Arcanist and was like automatic skip.

I think if your objective is that 1v1 you should be able to kill a ward users then yeah it's a complete struggle. That being said I test players all the time to see if I can kill them on all classes and I've had a lot of 1v1s where I couldn't kill them but we both had damage.

So for me that's back to being fine and balanced because I never feel like anything is a default where I can always kill people or they always can't kill me.

Another interesting thing about the ward change is that it allowed me to have one more bar slot and I really appreciate how much easier my gameplay has gotten. Again easier but not to where I'm dominating by far, I just get to enjoy playing the class.

Thanks! That’s all I needed to know.
No point to try and convince you otherwise

There's not really much to convince me of to be honest. I'm ok with the ward change but I'm not denying that others don't like it and I'm not saying I don't understand their reasoning.

For me the only thing that is in contention that can't be proved by players is how this change looks on the back end to zos in their metrics. I've posted this multiple times, there's definitely a data criteria that could be met which would indicate that this change is problematic for pvp. Nobody here that I know of has that data so yes otherwise I'm not willing to take fractions of player gathered data as an indicator for the whole of pvp.

And what makes you think that whatever standards zos is using to balance these pvp changes are more correct than those of players? I'd actually argue that if they are balancing purely from a spreadsheet its missing key practical factors.

It's like the difference between a theoretical approach and an experimental approach. For example, there is a very unpopular pts change to artic wind. Zos' standards for determining what needs change might indicate that it requires an adjustment but the players who actually pvp almost unanimously disagree.

You can't just dismiss people's arguments because you feel that whatever data they might provide is incomplete because they don't have the tools zos does.

Bushido2513 · July 15

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

@Bushido2513 In your opinion do you think that ward is currently fair and balanced ?

For me personally both in the way that I use it and in all the enemies I've come up against using it, it feels fine.

Now that being said I'd like to be clear about where I think some of the issue is coming from for other players. My build and playstyle is simple. You probably can't kill me and I might be able to kill you. If I can't kill you and there's no help around then I just move on.

In regards to the way that I use ward, I'm a max mag build but I don't sell out for it. So for me I am tanky but I take damage on the regular and can't sit still by any means with more then one player. So for me it feels fine because I have to actively play the game and can't just nuke people while also being able to not die. I've also fought other ward users and if I can't kill them I just move on though I've been able to kill enough that I don't feel like I did when I saw an Arcanist and was like automatic skip.

I think if your objective is that 1v1 you should be able to kill a ward users then yeah it's a complete struggle. That being said I test players all the time to see if I can kill them on all classes and I've had a lot of 1v1s where I couldn't kill them but we both had damage.

So for me that's back to being fine and balanced because I never feel like anything is a default where I can always kill people or they always can't kill me.

Another interesting thing about the ward change is that it allowed me to have one more bar slot and I really appreciate how much easier my gameplay has gotten. Again easier but not to where I'm dominating by far, I just get to enjoy playing the class.

Thanks! That’s all I needed to know.
No point to try and convince you otherwise

There's not really much to convince me of to be honest. I'm ok with the ward change but I'm not denying that others don't like it and I'm not saying I don't understand their reasoning.

For me the only thing that is in contention that can't be proved by players is how this change looks on the back end to zos in their metrics. I've posted this multiple times, there's definitely a data criteria that could be met which would indicate that this change is problematic for pvp. Nobody here that I know of has that data so yes otherwise I'm not willing to take fractions of player gathered data as an indicator for the whole of pvp.

And what makes you think that whatever standards zos is using to balance these pvp changes are more correct than those of players? I'd actually argue that if they are balancing purely from a spreadsheet its missing key practical factors.

It's like the difference between a theoretical approach and an experimental approach. For example, there is a very unpopular pts change to artic wind. Zos' standards for determining what needs change might indicate that it requires an adjustment but the players who actually pvp almost unanimously disagree.

You can't just dismiss people's arguments because you feel that whatever data they might provide is incomplete because they don't have the tools zos does.

I don't feel the data is incomplete, it literally just isn't all the data available. That's just a fact.

So ZOS makes a change then they look at feedback and check that against the data and likely whatever some dev felt needed to be done in the first place.

ZOS is not perfect and yes we need player feedback but the process should be feedback evaluated internally against data with adjustments being made.

What isn't required there is players acting like their bits of data are the whole picture or just the side commentary trying to convince or invalidate. Maybe just present thoughts, understand others may disagree and hit up ZOS to share more data, their vision, communication, etc

Alchimiste1 · July 15

@Bushido2513 did you just say and I quote, " I don't feel the data is incomplete, it literally just isn't all the data available." ?

Amottica · July 15

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

LukosCreyden wrote: »

Glad to see the "nerf sorc" threads are alive and well after all these years.
Now without further interruption, lets all get back into cyrodiil on our DKs.

Have you been to Cyro lately? DKs are going extinct.

I just want to point out that while I'm not saying it's not true, people saying all I see is XYZ class is like when someone buys a car and they now notice their same model when they see it even though it was just as common or uncommon before. I feel like on my platform I see a little bit of all classes and maybe a touch more nbs. Could be sorcs all over the place but if I'm not sensitive to them I wouldn't notice it unless three curses went off on me one after another

We have literal counts posted maybe even in this thread, that shows the trend for PCNA

This thread and these forums are not considered reflective of the player base. We are an extremely small portion of the player base and are very vocal, rather than a random sample typical of a better polling method.

I played the game for many years before I took the time to create a forum account. Doesn't mean I didn't have an opinion, just means you wouldn't have seen it here. Also so far I've only seen two or three players from my platform posting on here.

Very much part of the point. Thx for posting.

Amottica · July 15

Zabagad wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

LukosCreyden wrote: »

Glad to see the "nerf sorc" threads are alive and well after all these years.
Now without further interruption, lets all get back into cyrodiil on our DKs.

Have you been to Cyro lately? DKs are going extinct.

I just want to point out that while I'm not saying it's not true, people saying all I see is XYZ class is like when someone buys a car and they now notice their same model when they see it even though it was just as common or uncommon before. I feel like on my platform I see a little bit of all classes and maybe a touch more nbs. Could be sorcs all over the place but if I'm not sensitive to them I wouldn't notice it unless three curses went off on me one after another

We have literal counts posted maybe even in this thread, that shows the trend for PCNA

This thread and these forums are not considered reflective of the player base. We are an extremely small portion of the player base and are very vocal, rather than a random sample typical of a better polling method.

The mentioned counts have nothing to do with this forum and are a from a very good method of a "random sample".

@Zabagad

Please present them. If they are presented in another post within this thread please link that post since we are at 12 pages now. The forum should not just take people's word for such things.

Alchimiste1 · July 15

@Bushido2513 also isn't invalidating the opinion or data of others exactly what you are doing? there have been countless people showing cmx parses and showing exactly how broken ward is compared to other class heals.

Actually, I'm done talking to you. Don't bother responding

TechMaybeHic · July 15

Amottica wrote: »

Zabagad wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

LukosCreyden wrote: »

Glad to see the "nerf sorc" threads are alive and well after all these years.
Now without further interruption, lets all get back into cyrodiil on our DKs.

Have you been to Cyro lately? DKs are going extinct.

I just want to point out that while I'm not saying it's not true, people saying all I see is XYZ class is like when someone buys a car and they now notice their same model when they see it even though it was just as common or uncommon before. I feel like on my platform I see a little bit of all classes and maybe a touch more nbs. Could be sorcs all over the place but if I'm not sensitive to them I wouldn't notice it unless three curses went off on me one after another

We have literal counts posted maybe even in this thread, that shows the trend for PCNA

This thread and these forums are not considered reflective of the player base. We are an extremely small portion of the player base and are very vocal, rather than a random sample typical of a better polling method.

The mentioned counts have nothing to do with this forum and are a from a very good method of a "random sample".

@Zabagad

Please present them. If they are presented in another post within this thread please link that post since we are at 12 pages now. The forum should not just take people's word for such things.

Not sure where the post is but have a link to the last screenshot I saw
https://us.v-cdn.net/5020507/uploads/editor/rt/8cohl9rfcuzl.png

Bushido2513 · July 15

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

@Bushido2513 did you just say and I quote, " I don't feel the data is incomplete, it literally just isn't all the data available." ?

Yes I am saying it is not my feeling. In the same way I don't feel 2+2 = 4. There's what we the players see as data and what ZOS sees which are two very different things. Again that's not my feeling, it's just a fact of how this particular client/server relationship works.

To be clear I'm speaking of trying to describe how this change affects pvp as a whole. Cmx data from a duel is generally the same as what ZOS sees because it's an instance in a controlled scenario. Anything beyond that is in the area we don't have complete data on.

Amottica · July 16

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Zabagad wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

LukosCreyden wrote: »

Glad to see the "nerf sorc" threads are alive and well after all these years.
Now without further interruption, lets all get back into cyrodiil on our DKs.

Have you been to Cyro lately? DKs are going extinct.

I just want to point out that while I'm not saying it's not true, people saying all I see is XYZ class is like when someone buys a car and they now notice their same model when they see it even though it was just as common or uncommon before. I feel like on my platform I see a little bit of all classes and maybe a touch more nbs. Could be sorcs all over the place but if I'm not sensitive to them I wouldn't notice it unless three curses went off on me one after another

We have literal counts posted maybe even in this thread, that shows the trend for PCNA

This thread and these forums are not considered reflective of the player base. We are an extremely small portion of the player base and are very vocal, rather than a random sample typical of a better polling method.

The mentioned counts have nothing to do with this forum and are a from a very good method of a "random sample".

@Zabagad

Please present them. If they are presented in another post within this thread please link that post since we are at 12 pages now. The forum should not just take people's word for such things.

Not sure where the post is but have a link to the last screenshot I saw
https://us.v-cdn.net/5020507/uploads/editor/rt/8cohl9rfcuzl.png

Again, what is the source of that data, and how is it collected? The last time someone cited numbers from an addon, they claimed the addon counted every player in the campaign, yet a couple of players provided a video to demonstrate how that addon actually worked, and it became clear it was not designed or intended to count all players in a campaign at any given moment.

So please excuse my reservations, but I have seen claims made citing proof that was proven incorrect.

Regardless, I see the base classes being the most popular, which makes sense as everyone has access to them. Warden gets into the mix with that. Even if those numbers are accurate, they show a short-term moderate increase in sorc numbers, which does not support the claim that the hardened ward turns a C player into an S+. If that were the case, we would see 75% of the game being sorcs. I say nope.

Zabagad · July 16

Amottica wrote: »

Again, what is the source of that data, and how is it collected? The last time someone cited numbers from an addon, they claimed the addon counted every player in the campaign, yet a couple of players provided a video to demonstrate how that addon actually worked, and it became clear it was not designed or intended to count all players in a campaign at any given moment.

So please excuse my reservations, but I have seen claims made citing proof that was proven incorrect.

Regardless, I see the base classes being the most popular, which makes sense as everyone has access to them. Warden gets into the mix with that. Even if those numbers are accurate, they show a short-term moderate increase in sorc numbers, which does not support the claim that the hardened ward turns a C player into an S+. If that were the case, we would see 75% of the game being sorcs. I say nope.

The method is written in the chart and it's not my goal to convince you (or others) that these data are quite good...
All the interpretations like "hardened ward turns a C player into an S+" are not coming from my side anyway.
I just take the data and started as a magSorc main with U35 using this method (after a lot of validation with other methods) . And as much as I trusted them in U35 to prove my feeling that sorc was in a bad place after hybrid, as much I still trust them in U41+

Bushido2513 · July 16

Zabagad wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Again, what is the source of that data, and how is it collected? The last time someone cited numbers from an addon, they claimed the addon counted every player in the campaign, yet a couple of players provided a video to demonstrate how that addon actually worked, and it became clear it was not designed or intended to count all players in a campaign at any given moment.

So please excuse my reservations, but I have seen claims made citing proof that was proven incorrect.

Regardless, I see the base classes being the most popular, which makes sense as everyone has access to them. Warden gets into the mix with that. Even if those numbers are accurate, they show a short-term moderate increase in sorc numbers, which does not support the claim that the hardened ward turns a C player into an S+. If that were the case, we would see 75% of the game being sorcs. I say nope.

The method is written in the chart and it's not my goal to convince you (or others) that these data are quite good...
All the interpretations like "hardened ward turns a C player into an S+" are not coming from my side anyway.
I just take the data and started as a magSorc main with U35 using this method (after a lot of validation with other methods) . And as much as I trusted them in U35 to prove my feeling that sorc was in a bad place after hybrid, as much I still trust them in U41+

Honestly it really doesn't matter because it's either detailed or it's not but in this case I don't think anyone is really debating if they're are or aren't more sorcs. What we would need to know is if it's 2 percent or 200 percent and these numbers wouldn't be granular enough to give the detail needed.

But yes there are more sorcs, we all know that. How many are abusing ward, how many are just enjoying the class because it's easier to play now, how many flights result in getting kills, deaths, or stalemates? Only ZOS knows the full picture.

xylena_lazarow · July 16

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Honestly it really doesn't matter... Only ZOS knows the full picture.

Yes it does matter, which is why we are still providing ZOS with data. They don't operate these forums out of the good of their hearts, collecting player feedback and responding to the salient points helps the game remain profitable.

Bushido2513 · July 16

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Honestly it really doesn't matter... Only ZOS knows the full picture.

Yes it does matter, which is why we are still providing ZOS with data. They don't operate these forums out of the good of their hearts, collecting player feedback and responding to the salient points helps the game remain profitable.

The specific thing I was talking about doesn't matter. All you have to do is say it seems like sorc population is higher. Presenting player gathered data to back that up to ZOS is less than redundant because it's likely inferior to data ZOS already has.

DrNukenstein · July 16

It's not that there are necessarily more sorcs. It's that there are more sorcs trolling entire lobbies with their currently unsurpassed survivability, mobility, and ranged damage. Their currently overloaded kit has enabled them to be very bold.

Many of them suddenly consider themselves experts on all matters of PvP since they gained access to the healy shield. They have very wordy and nuanced opinions on why the healy shield isn't just okay, but necessary. They believe that other kits and playstyles are unfair and overpowered, but never look in the mirror. You don't necessarily want to deal with them in game, but they leave you no choice because as soon as you back off they're back to throwing pot shots at you and streaking through on cool down.

This is the sorc ego. It is no better than any other ego in the game, no less toxic than any other play style and it has been on full display since the ward buff. Nerf it on the quality of their character.

xylena_lazarow · July 16

Bushido2513 wrote: »

The specific thing I was talking about doesn't matter

If it really doesn't matter, then why are you still commenting? Just let other players waste their time arguing, and stop trying to shut conversation down? You're not going to convert the crusaders here to Hardened Ward Agnosticism.

Tcholl · July 16

The numbers in this chart seems very much in line with what i have experienced playing pvp. Also, it doesnt prove anything by itself but it does support the post claim.

Bushido2513 · July 16

DrNukenstein wrote: »

It's not that there are necessarily more sorcs. It's that there are more sorcs trolling entire lobbies with their currently unsurpassed survivability, mobility, and ranged damage. Their currently overloaded kit has enabled them to be very bold.

Many of them suddenly consider themselves experts on all matters of PvP since they gained access to the healy shield. They have very wordy and nuanced opinions on why the healy shield isn't just okay, but necessary. They believe that other kits and playstyles are unfair and overpowered, but never look in the mirror. You don't necessarily want to deal with them in game, but they leave you no choice because as soon as you back off they're back to throwing pot shots at you and streaking through on cool down.

This is the sorc ego. It is no better than any other ego in the game, no less toxic than any other play style and it has been on full display since the ward buff. Nerf it on the quality of their character.

I appreciate you presenting at least multiple view points of the situation.

I think it's interesting because I don't feel much of a particular way about my kit vs others. I just think this is what the game is today same as when I thought about what it wasn't before this.

But yeah I'm sure there are others out there across all classes that self justify their playstyles and in think that's ok. After all what's the point of playing a game if you're going to hate that you're playing it?

Bushido2513 · July 16

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

The specific thing I was talking about doesn't matter

If it really doesn't matter, then why are you still commenting? Just let other players waste their time arguing, and stop trying to shut conversation down? You're not going to convert the crusaders here to Hardened Ward Agnosticism.

I honestly don't write anything to try to shut anyone down. I'm fine if anyone cares what in say or cares to ignore it. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything because I like everyone else here don't have any concrete proof one way or the other regarding the total effect on pvp

If anything you seen to spend more time trying to get me to stop sharing my opinion when I've been supportive of you sharing yours even when I don't agree. So unlike you I won't suggest that you do or don't comment. Please feel free to do as you wish and I'll do the same.

xylena_lazarow · July 16

@Bushido2513 repeating "it doesn't matter" is not constructive, because you don't know anything more about the ZOS development process than I do. You are making assumptions on how they operate. I'm just providing data. You are welcome to do the same, share more game experiences, builds, numbers, etc.

Bushido2513 · July 16

DrNukenstein wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

I appreciate you presenting at least multiple view points of the situation.

[Snip].

I mean we all know players that just wait for the most op thing to drop and use to grief players. Those are on every server and like to likely use the game world for a power fantasy over other people. I'm not a fan but to each their own.

I know some people are running into those kind of people and getting a bad taste in their mouth for sorc so I can understand saying ward sucks from that perspective.

[Edited quote]

Bushido2513 · July 16

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

@Bushido2513 repeating "it doesn't matter" is not constructive, because you don't know anything more about the ZOS development process than I do. You are making assumptions on how they operate. I'm just providing data. You are welcome to do the same, share more game experiences, builds, numbers, etc.

Well I don't mean to imply that I know how they operate, I don't. I just draw theories and conclusions from their actions or lack there of.

It's not an assumption though to say that any data I could provide from my aspect would just be data they already have and likely less than what they have. It's their servers so that's just a fact. So I could just reference my issue and they could take a look at their own info.

Like I get the case where there's a video or picture that can't really be taken another way.

Tarnished procs
The pve chain reaction of that one set that blew up a dungeon
That Arcanist that wouldn't die

Giving evidence to those I can understand because it's clear cut. The effect of ward on pvp as a whole is a much harder thing to quantify with just simple bits of data

Bushido2513 · July 16

DrNukenstein wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

I know some people are running into those kind of people and getting a bad taste in their mouth for sorc so I can understand saying ward sucks from that perspective.

[Snip]

True though these players will also just play any class they want while hunting in groups and using synergy of their builds and skills to get kills

It's interesting because I guess some are abusing ward and for me it just helps get away from people that are abusive like this so that my game isn't ruined lol

[Edited quote]

xylena_lazarow · July 16

Bushido2513 wrote: »

It's interesting because I guess some are abusing ward and for me it just helps get away from people that are abusive like this so that my game isn't ruined lol

If the best way to counter Ward abusers is to abuse Ward yourself, that proves it's overpowered.

Jsmalls · July 16

@Joy_Division
@StaticWave
@xylena_lazarow

I may not play another class, but I can guarantee I have more experience in Open world PvP than 99.9% of the player base.

AP doesn't mean everything, but it also doesn't mean nothing. I have 11 million AP halfway through this months campaign and 16 million in last months campaign. And that's a month and a half of my 10 year play time.

I've killed a lot of players. I've also died a lot. I've fought every single build you can imagine from every class you can think of.

I've 1vX'd, 1v1'd (I don't engage in the competitive 1v1 playstyle its just not my interest), GvG'd and Xv1'd with the best of them.

I always try to recognize my bias in my statements.

I have a very good handle on what's Overtuned, what's balanced, and what needs to be buffed.

I also have a very good handle on what classes are capable of from the other side of the fence.

That being said there are extremes to everything.
Polar Wind isn't broken at 30k health.

Ward isn't broken at 45k Magicka (without Rallying cry).

This is my bias on the conversation.

Right now Sorcs have the potential for build diversity. I can make any number of sets viable on Sorc right now. That hasn't been an option prior to update 41 in a LONG time.

Address the outliers (60k magicka / Rallying cry setups). Don't gut the skill.

At the end of the day turning it into a HoT isn't going to change the fact that 18k Wards are now possible (major vitality is easy to get now).

And an 18k Ward without a burst heal attached is a problem.

Bushido2513 · July 16

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

It's interesting because I guess some are abusing ward and for me it just helps get away from people that are abusive like this so that my game isn't ruined lol

If the best way to counter Ward abusers is to abuse Ward yourself, that proves it's overpowered.

Lol that's just what I like playing but I can tell you I've seen most classes be able to stand up to sorcs fairly well including those that can stalemate or beat me.

People keep talking about when a sorc just pokes at you from range but most classes can full on counter this behavior.

To put it another way I can say that I don't personally look at any particular class and say to myself there's nothing they can do to counter me.

Bushido2513 · July 16

Jsmalls wrote: »

@Joy_Division
@StaticWave
@xylena_lazarow

I may not play another class, but I can guarantee I have more experience in Open world PvP than 99.9% of the player base.

AP doesn't mean everything, but it also doesn't mean nothing. I have 11 million AP halfway through this months campaign and 16 million in last months campaign. And that's a month and a half of my 10 year play time.

I've killed a lot of players. I've also died a lot. I've fought every single build you can imagine from every class you can think of.

I've 1vX'd, 1v1'd (I don't engage in the competitive 1v1 playstyle its just not my interest), GvG'd and Xv1'd with the best of them.

I always try to recognize my bias in my statements.

I have a very good handle on what's Overtuned, what's balanced, and what needs to be buffed.

I also have a very good handle on what classes are capable of from the other side of the fence.

That being said there are extremes to everything.
Polar Wind isn't broken at 30k health.

Ward isn't broken at 45k Magicka (without Rallying cry).

This is my bias on the conversation.

Right now Sorcs have the potential for build diversity. I can make any number of sets viable on Sorc right now. That hasn't been an option prior to update 41 in a LONG time.

Address the outliers (60k magicka / Rallying cry setups). Don't gut the skill.

At the end of the day turning it into a HoT isn't going to change the fact that 18k Wards are now possible (major vitality is easy to get now).

And an 18k Ward without a burst heal attached is a problem.

I am enjoying ward as is but yes I use it closer to 45k than 60 so I could see addressing the outliers if ZOS is seeing the overall same

DrNukenstein · July 16

Bushido2513 wrote: »

True though these players will also just play any class they want while hunting in groups and using synergy of their builds and skills to get kills

It's interesting because I guess some are abusing ward and for me it just helps get away from people that are abusive like this so that my game isn't ruined lol

Nah man, it's literally just those 5ish 24/7/every-single-patch sorc mains that spam BG's. Almost everyone else you have to make mad first before they start making it a point to fight you first. Those clowns play for attention. poke, poke again if you don't start dealing with them, streak around the map when you do, shoot you in the back when you try to go do something else. And god forbid you ever ever kill them, even once. They never forget.

Bushido2513 · July 16

DrNukenstein wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

True though these players will also just play any class they want while hunting in groups and using synergy of their builds and skills to get kills

It's interesting because I guess some are abusing ward and for me it just helps get away from people that are abusive like this so that my game isn't ruined lol

Nah man, it's literally just those 5ish 24/7/every-single-patch sorc mains that spam BG's. Almost everyone else you have to make mad first before they start making it a point to fight you first. Those clowns play for attention. poke, poke again if you don't start dealing with them, streak around the map when you do, shoot you in the back when you try to go do something else. And god forbid you ever ever kill them, even once. They never forget.

That night be what's different for me then or I've made it so that most leave me alone because I'm usually at the very, hard to kill. I actually get a lot more of what you described as nbs

DrNukenstein · July 16

Bushido2513 wrote: »

That night be what's different for me then or I've made it so that most leave me alone because I'm usually at the very, hard to kill. I actually get a lot more of what you described as nbs

Yeah I get that from the bow/stick blades too. And it's also annoying, but they die if you get on them. They can't stand there and trade with you or teleport around. They can't even sprint in cloak. If they're 1bar babies (like most of them are) they don't even have space for at least one of the expeditions without being an even easier kill. They totally break the deal by using cloak in that way, but they also don't get to play like a 50k hp warden with a bazooka