xylena_lazarow wrote: »So you do understand why people hate fighting against MagSorcs (and NBs) right now?Bushido2513 wrote: »I was just trying to say that it isn't required to fight a magsorc with another class to experience being annoyed by a fight being reset over and over at your enemy's choosing.
xylena_lazarow wrote: »So you do understand why people hate fighting against MagSorcs (and NBs) right now?Bushido2513 wrote: »I was just trying to say that it isn't required to fight a magsorc with another class to experience being annoyed by a fight being reset over and over at your enemy's choosing.
xylena_lazarow wrote: »Have you been to Cyro lately? DKs are going extinct.LukosCreyden wrote: »Glad to see the "nerf sorc" threads are alive and well after all these years.
Now without further interruption, lets all get back into cyrodiil on our DKs.
Bushido2513 wrote: »xylena_lazarow wrote: »Have you been to Cyro lately? DKs are going extinct.LukosCreyden wrote: »Glad to see the "nerf sorc" threads are alive and well after all these years.
Now without further interruption, lets all get back into cyrodiil on our DKs.
I just want to point out that while I'm not saying it's not true, people saying all I see is XYZ class is like when someone buys a car and they now notice their same model when they see it even though it was just as common or uncommon before. I feel like on my platform I see a little bit of all classes and maybe a touch more nbs. Could be sorcs all over the place but if I'm not sensitive to them I wouldn't notice it unless three curses went off on me one after another
TechMaybeHic wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »xylena_lazarow wrote: »Have you been to Cyro lately? DKs are going extinct.LukosCreyden wrote: »Glad to see the "nerf sorc" threads are alive and well after all these years.
Now without further interruption, lets all get back into cyrodiil on our DKs.
I just want to point out that while I'm not saying it's not true, people saying all I see is XYZ class is like when someone buys a car and they now notice their same model when they see it even though it was just as common or uncommon before. I feel like on my platform I see a little bit of all classes and maybe a touch more nbs. Could be sorcs all over the place but if I'm not sensitive to them I wouldn't notice it unless three curses went off on me one after another
We have literal counts posted maybe even in this thread, that shows the trend for PCNA
Alchimiste1 wrote: »@Bushido2513 In your opinion do you think that ward is currently fair and balanced ?
TechMaybeHic wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »xylena_lazarow wrote: »Have you been to Cyro lately? DKs are going extinct.LukosCreyden wrote: »Glad to see the "nerf sorc" threads are alive and well after all these years.
Now without further interruption, lets all get back into cyrodiil on our DKs.
I just want to point out that while I'm not saying it's not true, people saying all I see is XYZ class is like when someone buys a car and they now notice their same model when they see it even though it was just as common or uncommon before. I feel like on my platform I see a little bit of all classes and maybe a touch more nbs. Could be sorcs all over the place but if I'm not sensitive to them I wouldn't notice it unless three curses went off on me one after another
We have literal counts posted maybe even in this thread, that shows the trend for PCNA
xylena_lazarow wrote: »This "we can't know for sure" reasoning is bunk. ZOS most definitely has data from gameplay and feedback. There are now literally thousands of recent posts about Hardened Ward, no other PvP topic comes close. ZOS will notice that.
TechMaybeHic wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »xylena_lazarow wrote: »Have you been to Cyro lately? DKs are going extinct.LukosCreyden wrote: »Glad to see the "nerf sorc" threads are alive and well after all these years.
Now without further interruption, lets all get back into cyrodiil on our DKs.
I just want to point out that while I'm not saying it's not true, people saying all I see is XYZ class is like when someone buys a car and they now notice their same model when they see it even though it was just as common or uncommon before. I feel like on my platform I see a little bit of all classes and maybe a touch more nbs. Could be sorcs all over the place but if I'm not sensitive to them I wouldn't notice it unless three curses went off on me one after another
We have literal counts posted maybe even in this thread, that shows the trend for PCNA
This thread and these forums are not considered reflective of the player base. We are an extremely small portion of the player base and are very vocal, rather than a random sample typical of a better polling method.
The mentioned counts have nothing to do with this forum and are a from a very good method of a "random sample".TechMaybeHic wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »xylena_lazarow wrote: »Have you been to Cyro lately? DKs are going extinct.LukosCreyden wrote: »Glad to see the "nerf sorc" threads are alive and well after all these years.
Now without further interruption, lets all get back into cyrodiil on our DKs.
I just want to point out that while I'm not saying it's not true, people saying all I see is XYZ class is like when someone buys a car and they now notice their same model when they see it even though it was just as common or uncommon before. I feel like on my platform I see a little bit of all classes and maybe a touch more nbs. Could be sorcs all over the place but if I'm not sensitive to them I wouldn't notice it unless three curses went off on me one after another
We have literal counts posted maybe even in this thread, that shows the trend for PCNA
This thread and these forums are not considered reflective of the player base. We are an extremely small portion of the player base and are very vocal, rather than a random sample typical of a better polling method.
The mentioned counts have nothing to do with this forum and are a from a very good method of a "random sample".TechMaybeHic wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »xylena_lazarow wrote: »Have you been to Cyro lately? DKs are going extinct.LukosCreyden wrote: »Glad to see the "nerf sorc" threads are alive and well after all these years.
Now without further interruption, lets all get back into cyrodiil on our DKs.
I just want to point out that while I'm not saying it's not true, people saying all I see is XYZ class is like when someone buys a car and they now notice their same model when they see it even though it was just as common or uncommon before. I feel like on my platform I see a little bit of all classes and maybe a touch more nbs. Could be sorcs all over the place but if I'm not sensitive to them I wouldn't notice it unless three curses went off on me one after another
We have literal counts posted maybe even in this thread, that shows the trend for PCNA
This thread and these forums are not considered reflective of the player base. We are an extremely small portion of the player base and are very vocal, rather than a random sample typical of a better polling method.
Bushido2513 wrote: »The mentioned counts have nothing to do with this forum and are a from a very good method of a "random sample".TechMaybeHic wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »xylena_lazarow wrote: »Have you been to Cyro lately? DKs are going extinct.LukosCreyden wrote: »Glad to see the "nerf sorc" threads are alive and well after all these years.
Now without further interruption, lets all get back into cyrodiil on our DKs.
I just want to point out that while I'm not saying it's not true, people saying all I see is XYZ class is like when someone buys a car and they now notice their same model when they see it even though it was just as common or uncommon before. I feel like on my platform I see a little bit of all classes and maybe a touch more nbs. Could be sorcs all over the place but if I'm not sensitive to them I wouldn't notice it unless three curses went off on me one after another
We have literal counts posted maybe even in this thread, that shows the trend for PCNA
This thread and these forums are not considered reflective of the player base. We are an extremely small portion of the player base and are very vocal, rather than a random sample typical of a better polling method.
I appreciate when players in the community take the time to try to make sense of the parts of the game we can't see. It's also obvious more people are playing sorc right now though that may just be because it's just easier to play.
That being said numbers that can't be cross checked with independent methods / a reverse calculation should be taken with a grain of salt.
Again I'm not saying the outcome doesn't happen to be the case here, just that we're not talking about the full picture.
TechMaybeHic wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »The mentioned counts have nothing to do with this forum and are a from a very good method of a "random sample".TechMaybeHic wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »xylena_lazarow wrote: »Have you been to Cyro lately? DKs are going extinct.LukosCreyden wrote: »Glad to see the "nerf sorc" threads are alive and well after all these years.
Now without further interruption, lets all get back into cyrodiil on our DKs.
I just want to point out that while I'm not saying it's not true, people saying all I see is XYZ class is like when someone buys a car and they now notice their same model when they see it even though it was just as common or uncommon before. I feel like on my platform I see a little bit of all classes and maybe a touch more nbs. Could be sorcs all over the place but if I'm not sensitive to them I wouldn't notice it unless three curses went off on me one after another
We have literal counts posted maybe even in this thread, that shows the trend for PCNA
This thread and these forums are not considered reflective of the player base. We are an extremely small portion of the player base and are very vocal, rather than a random sample typical of a better polling method.
I appreciate when players in the community take the time to try to make sense of the parts of the game we can't see. It's also obvious more people are playing sorc right now though that may just be because it's just easier to play.
That being said numbers that can't be cross checked with independent methods / a reverse calculation should be taken with a grain of salt.
Again I'm not saying the outcome doesn't happen to be the case here, just that we're not talking about the full picture.
You could question the numbers being complete but they have been doing the same method over time so the trend is clear.
xylena_lazarow wrote: »This "we can't know for sure" reasoning is bunk. ZOS most definitely has data from gameplay and feedback. There are now literally thousands of recent posts about Hardened Ward, no other PvP topic comes close. ZOS will notice that.
They care enough to keep advertising it, promoting events for it, making sets for it, and yes making PvP balance tweaks (such as the MDW nerf all the potatoes were crying years for). Players have weird ideas about game development.It's amazing to me that some people seem to think that ZOS as an entity -- I'm not speaking about all individuals -- care at all about PVP.
Those are minor things in the backdrop of major issues at both technical and gameplay levels.xylena_lazarow wrote: »They care enough to keep advertising it, promoting events for it, making sets for it, and yes making PvP balance tweaks (such as the MDW nerf all the potatoes were crying years for). Players have weird ideas about game development.It's amazing to me that some people seem to think that ZOS as an entity -- I'm not speaking about all individuals -- care at all about PVP.
They've eventually addressed most of the consistent complaints related to specific sets or skills, often multiple times for the same element. Wider metagame issues like cross healing are harder to address, but with literal thousands of posts on Hardened Ward specifically, I'd wager it's on their radar, their process is much slower than we players would like.I say this because it is becoming very clear how the class is overperforming right now and this will not last for many patches. We have already seen some movement in that direction.
Those are minor things in the backdrop of major issues at both technical and gameplay levels.xylena_lazarow wrote: »They care enough to keep advertising it, promoting events for it, making sets for it, and yes making PvP balance tweaks (such as the MDW nerf all the potatoes were crying years for). Players have weird ideas about game development.It's amazing to me that some people seem to think that ZOS as an entity -- I'm not speaking about all individuals -- care at all about PVP.
Even when they do recognize an error, it can take them years to correct it.
Though what people enjoy is subjective, there are traits most good PVP games share and drawbacks that PVP focused games have tried to avoid -- like overly long, drawn out fights, stalemates and gross imbalances.
I think there are individuals at ZOS, including high ranking ones, who love Cyrodiil and PVP. I think people like them are why Cyro still exists. But to ZOS as an entity, it is an afterthought.
The buff to Sorc is evidence of that. I don't believe any player with a clue read those patch notes for the first time and thought "oh that's a good balanced change." Its impact was felt immediately without a care from ZOS.
Everyone insisting that Ward is balanced right now, waiting for them to keep as it is, should consider that the coin has two sides. Maybe, their vision (devs) to the near future is to slowly take the burst away of the sorcs. Next patch, Curse will be blockable for example.
If this is the case, Sorcs main might be the ones complaining soon, as they will keep the tankyness, but at the cost of their burst damage.
I say this because it is becoming very clear how the class is overperforming right now and this will not last for many patches. We have already seen some movement in that direction.
xylena_lazarow wrote: »They've eventually addressed most of the consistent complaints related to specific sets or skills, often multiple times for the same element. Wider metagame issues like cross healing are harder to address, but with literal thousands of posts on Hardened Ward specifically, I'd wager it's on their radar, their process is much slower than we players would like.I say this because it is becoming very clear how the class is overperforming right now and this will not last for many patches. We have already seen some movement in that direction.
Bushido2513 wrote: »Those are minor things in the backdrop of major issues at both technical and gameplay levels.xylena_lazarow wrote: »They care enough to keep advertising it, promoting events for it, making sets for it, and yes making PvP balance tweaks (such as the MDW nerf all the potatoes were crying years for). Players have weird ideas about game development.It's amazing to me that some people seem to think that ZOS as an entity -- I'm not speaking about all individuals -- care at all about PVP.
Even when they do recognize an error, it can take them years to correct it.
Though what people enjoy is subjective, there are traits most good PVP games share and drawbacks that PVP focused games have tried to avoid -- like overly long, drawn out fights, stalemates and gross imbalances.
I think there are individuals at ZOS, including high ranking ones, who love Cyrodiil and PVP. I think people like them are why Cyro still exists. But to ZOS as an entity, it is an afterthought.
The buff to Sorc is evidence of that. I don't believe any player with a clue read those patch notes for the first time and thought "oh that's a good balanced change." Its impact was felt immediately without a care from ZOS.
There are a couple of interesting things about what you're saying though. We only know about the uptick in sorcs because people are playing sorcs in PVP. My point is that people are playing the game. People aren't saying man there's nobody on all the time but instead saying look at all these sorcs due to this bad change. I think ZOS only worries about less players in the game and that's not what we're seeing.
I just think it's interesting that people are saying it's not a good change yet people seem to be getting into said change. Yes of course we can say they are doing it because they are just abusing it but I'd argue this change really does just make magsorc more accessible and people are enjoying that availability perhaps.
Bushido2513 wrote: »It's funny because I feel like I'm playing a different game then some of the players commenting here.
Bushido2513 wrote: »I just think it's interesting that people are saying it's not a good change yet people seem to be getting into said change. Yes of course we can say they are doing it because they are just abusing it but I'd argue this change really does just make magsorc more accessible and people are enjoying that availability perhaps.
Bushido2513 wrote: »Alchimiste1 wrote: »@Bushido2513 In your opinion do you think that ward is currently fair and balanced ?
For me personally both in the way that I use it and in all the enemies I've come up against using it, it feels fine.
Now that being said I'd like to be clear about where I think some of the issue is coming from for other players. My build and playstyle is simple. You probably can't kill me and I might be able to kill you. If I can't kill you and there's no help around then I just move on.
In regards to the way that I use ward, I'm a max mag build but I don't sell out for it. So for me I am tanky but I take damage on the regular and can't sit still by any means with more then one player. So for me it feels fine because I have to actively play the game and can't just nuke people while also being able to not die. I've also fought other ward users and if I can't kill them I just move on though I've been able to kill enough that I don't feel like I did when I saw an Arcanist and was like automatic skip.
I think if your objective is that 1v1 you should be able to kill a ward users then yeah it's a complete struggle. That being said I test players all the time to see if I can kill them on all classes and I've had a lot of 1v1s where I couldn't kill them but we both had damage.
So for me that's back to being fine and balanced because I never feel like anything is a default where I can always kill people or they always can't kill me.
Another interesting thing about the ward change is that it allowed me to have one more bar slot and I really appreciate how much easier my gameplay has gotten. Again easier but not to where I'm dominating by far, I just get to enjoy playing the class.
Tinkerhorn wrote: ».Bushido2513 wrote: »Those are minor things in the backdrop of major issues at both technical and gameplay levels.xylena_lazarow wrote: »They care enough to keep advertising it, promoting events for it, making sets for it, and yes making PvP balance tweaks (such as the MDW nerf all the potatoes were crying years for). Players have weird ideas about game development.It's amazing to me that some people seem to think that ZOS as an entity -- I'm not speaking about all individuals -- care at all about PVP.
Even when they do recognize an error, it can take them years to correct it.
Though what people enjoy is subjective, there are traits most good PVP games share and drawbacks that PVP focused games have tried to avoid -- like overly long, drawn out fights, stalemates and gross imbalances.
I think there are individuals at ZOS, including high ranking ones, who love Cyrodiil and PVP. I think people like them are why Cyro still exists. But to ZOS as an entity, it is an afterthought.
The buff to Sorc is evidence of that. I don't believe any player with a clue read those patch notes for the first time and thought "oh that's a good balanced change." Its impact was felt immediately without a care from ZOS.
There are a couple of interesting things about what you're saying though. We only know about the uptick in sorcs because people are playing sorcs in PVP. My point is that people are playing the game. People aren't saying man there's nobody on all the time but instead saying look at all these sorcs due to this bad change. I think ZOS only worries about less players in the game and that's not what we're seeing.
I just think it's interesting that people are saying it's not a good change yet people seem to be getting into said change. Yes of course we can say they are doing it because they are just abusing it but I'd argue this change really does just make magsorc more accessible and people are enjoying that availability perhaps.
I'm unsure if youre suggesting that the player base is benfitting numerically due to this change as you don't outright state it that there are more, but reading it I think it's fair for me to assume that by implication you believe more people are playing the game due to the sorc change, at which point I would like to know your source for this as anecdotally, PC EU I am experiencing a great reduction not just in friend activity within a certain timeframe, but also in the length of time people are spending on the game. Not just that, I am finding within guilds that the tolerance of PvP has diminished greatly. People are logging off sooner than they used to and openly saying they just can't be bothered with this anymore. Honestly I feel so many red flags and yet not only are you contrarian to the large majority of views on ward in spite of information presented to you, you're now also contrarian on the health of the game's population?
I could be biased, I am undoubtedly so, but I have to agree with you on one point.Bushido2513 wrote: »It's funny because I feel like I'm playing a different game then some of the players commenting here.
Bushido2513 wrote: »I just think it's interesting that people are saying it's not a good change yet people seem to be getting into said change. Yes of course we can say they are doing it because they are just abusing it but I'd argue this change really does just make magsorc more accessible and people are enjoying that availability perhaps.
It's like this in most games when something is OP. OP aspects will always be defended by those who are taking advantage of them.
The first OP class in ESO was mdk. It was clear as day, yet the opposition to adjusting it was fierce because so many players played it.
I don't think the OP sorc has made PVP more popular. The opposite is true. One reason I'm not PVPing right now is because sorcs are a total waste of time. They're the most annoying of all the tanks because they can constantly disengage, reset and come back to annoy again -- while maintaining glass cannon burst. Truly removing them from an area means chasing them halfway across the map. They are an epitome of everything wrong with PVP gameplay atm.
Alchimiste1 wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »Alchimiste1 wrote: »@Bushido2513 In your opinion do you think that ward is currently fair and balanced ?
For me personally both in the way that I use it and in all the enemies I've come up against using it, it feels fine.
Now that being said I'd like to be clear about where I think some of the issue is coming from for other players. My build and playstyle is simple. You probably can't kill me and I might be able to kill you. If I can't kill you and there's no help around then I just move on.
In regards to the way that I use ward, I'm a max mag build but I don't sell out for it. So for me I am tanky but I take damage on the regular and can't sit still by any means with more then one player. So for me it feels fine because I have to actively play the game and can't just nuke people while also being able to not die. I've also fought other ward users and if I can't kill them I just move on though I've been able to kill enough that I don't feel like I did when I saw an Arcanist and was like automatic skip.
I think if your objective is that 1v1 you should be able to kill a ward users then yeah it's a complete struggle. That being said I test players all the time to see if I can kill them on all classes and I've had a lot of 1v1s where I couldn't kill them but we both had damage.
So for me that's back to being fine and balanced because I never feel like anything is a default where I can always kill people or they always can't kill me.
Another interesting thing about the ward change is that it allowed me to have one more bar slot and I really appreciate how much easier my gameplay has gotten. Again easier but not to where I'm dominating by far, I just get to enjoy playing the class.
Thanks! That’s all I needed to know.
No point to try and convince you otherwise
Your continued rejection of data is noted. There will be more data.Bushido2513 wrote: »Nobody here that I know of has that data so yes otherwise I'm not willing to take fractions of player gathered data as an indicator for the whole of pvp.