Hardened Ward... Where player based skill can go from C-tier to S+-tier

Bushido2513 · July 14

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

I was just trying to say that it isn't required to fight a magsorc with another class to experience being annoyed by a fight being reset over and over at your enemy's choosing.

So you do understand why people hate fighting against MagSorcs (and NBs) right now?

I believe I do

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

I was just trying to say that it isn't required to fight a magsorc with another class to experience being annoyed by a fight being reset over and over at your enemy's choosing.

So you do understand why people hate fighting against MagSorcs (and NBs) right now?

To answer your question yes I understand why people feel that way. I'm just adding that hate for reset fights or just hate for a fight isn't always about imbalance and I is sometimes just about preference.

I'm not a fan of templar's sitting in heals while I try to kill them. This doesn't mean templars aren't balanced or that I can't kill a templar, or that some people aren't cutting through templar's like butter. It just means for me it's not a fun fight.

Bushido2513 · July 14

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

LukosCreyden wrote: »

Glad to see the "nerf sorc" threads are alive and well after all these years.
Now without further interruption, lets all get back into cyrodiil on our DKs.

Have you been to Cyro lately? DKs are going extinct.

I just want to point out that while I'm not saying it's not true, people saying all I see is XYZ class is like when someone buys a car and they now notice their same model when they see it even though it was just as common or uncommon before. I feel like on my platform I see a little bit of all classes and maybe a touch more nbs. Could be sorcs all over the place but if I'm not sensitive to them I wouldn't notice it unless three curses went off on me one after another

TechMaybeHic · July 14

Bushido2513 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

LukosCreyden wrote: »

Glad to see the "nerf sorc" threads are alive and well after all these years.
Now without further interruption, lets all get back into cyrodiil on our DKs.

Have you been to Cyro lately? DKs are going extinct.

I just want to point out that while I'm not saying it's not true, people saying all I see is XYZ class is like when someone buys a car and they now notice their same model when they see it even though it was just as common or uncommon before. I feel like on my platform I see a little bit of all classes and maybe a touch more nbs. Could be sorcs all over the place but if I'm not sensitive to them I wouldn't notice it unless three curses went off on me one after another

We have literal counts posted maybe even in this thread, that shows the trend for PCNA

Bushido2513 · July 14

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

LukosCreyden wrote: »

Glad to see the "nerf sorc" threads are alive and well after all these years.
Now without further interruption, lets all get back into cyrodiil on our DKs.

Have you been to Cyro lately? DKs are going extinct.

I just want to point out that while I'm not saying it's not true, people saying all I see is XYZ class is like when someone buys a car and they now notice their same model when they see it even though it was just as common or uncommon before. I feel like on my platform I see a little bit of all classes and maybe a touch more nbs. Could be sorcs all over the place but if I'm not sensitive to them I wouldn't notice it unless three curses went off on me one after another

We have literal counts posted maybe even in this thread, that shows the trend for PCNA

Yes but that's not the full picture at all. The data is strictly incomplete by platform as well as all pvp zones. I'm not saying I doubt that sorc is being played more, that would be silly. It's a class that is now much more accessible so of course you're going to likely see more of it. But is it to dangerous levels that could ruin the majority's enjoyment of the game? That's another question that would need more complete data to answer. I'm sure zos is looking at this for the sake of maintaining if nothing else a good revenue stream with acceptable levels of player churn.

Alchimiste1 · July 14

@Bushido2513 In your opinion do you think that ward is currently fair and balanced ?

Bushido2513 · July 15

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

@Bushido2513 In your opinion do you think that ward is currently fair and balanced ?

For me personally both in the way that I use it and in all the enemies I've come up against using it, it feels fine.

Now that being said I'd like to be clear about where I think some of the issue is coming from for other players. My build and playstyle is simple. You probably can't kill me and I might be able to kill you. If I can't kill you and there's no help around then I just move on.

In regards to the way that I use ward, I'm a max mag build but I don't sell out for it. So for me I am tanky but I take damage on the regular and can't sit still by any means with more then one player. So for me it feels fine because I have to actively play the game and can't just nuke people while also being able to not die. I've also fought other ward users and if I can't kill them I just move on though I've been able to kill enough that I don't feel like I did when I saw an Arcanist and was like automatic skip.

I think if your objective is that 1v1 you should be able to kill a ward users then yeah it's a complete struggle. That being said I test players all the time to see if I can kill them on all classes and I've had a lot of 1v1s where I couldn't kill them but we both had damage.

So for me that's back to being fine and balanced because I never feel like anything is a default where I can always kill people or they always can't kill me.

Another interesting thing about the ward change is that it allowed me to have one more bar slot and I really appreciate how much easier my gameplay has gotten. Again easier but not to where I'm dominating by far, I just get to enjoy playing the class.

xylena_lazarow · July 15

This "we can't know for sure" reasoning is bunk. ZOS most definitely has data from gameplay and feedback. There are now literally thousands of recent posts about Hardened Ward, no other PvP topic comes close. ZOS will notice that.

Amottica · July 15

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

LukosCreyden wrote: »

Glad to see the "nerf sorc" threads are alive and well after all these years.
Now without further interruption, lets all get back into cyrodiil on our DKs.

Have you been to Cyro lately? DKs are going extinct.

I just want to point out that while I'm not saying it's not true, people saying all I see is XYZ class is like when someone buys a car and they now notice their same model when they see it even though it was just as common or uncommon before. I feel like on my platform I see a little bit of all classes and maybe a touch more nbs. Could be sorcs all over the place but if I'm not sensitive to them I wouldn't notice it unless three curses went off on me one after another

We have literal counts posted maybe even in this thread, that shows the trend for PCNA

This thread and these forums are not considered reflective of the player base. We are an extremely small portion of the player base and are very vocal, rather than a random sample typical of a better polling method.

Bushido2513 · July 15

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

This "we can't know for sure" reasoning is bunk. ZOS most definitely has data from gameplay and feedback. There are now literally thousands of recent posts about Hardened Ward, no other PvP topic comes close. ZOS will notice that.

The we is players. I definitely think zos knows the most about what's going on but that information is not public so we the players can't really know.

Bushido2513 · July 15

Amottica wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

LukosCreyden wrote: »

Glad to see the "nerf sorc" threads are alive and well after all these years.
Now without further interruption, lets all get back into cyrodiil on our DKs.

Have you been to Cyro lately? DKs are going extinct.

I just want to point out that while I'm not saying it's not true, people saying all I see is XYZ class is like when someone buys a car and they now notice their same model when they see it even though it was just as common or uncommon before. I feel like on my platform I see a little bit of all classes and maybe a touch more nbs. Could be sorcs all over the place but if I'm not sensitive to them I wouldn't notice it unless three curses went off on me one after another

We have literal counts posted maybe even in this thread, that shows the trend for PCNA

This thread and these forums are not considered reflective of the player base. We are an extremely small portion of the player base and are very vocal, rather than a random sample typical of a better polling method.

I played the game for many years before I took the time to create a forum account. Doesn't mean I didn't have an opinion, just means you wouldn't have seen it here. Also so far I've only seen two or three players from my platform posting on here.

Zabagad · July 15

Amottica wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

LukosCreyden wrote: »

Glad to see the "nerf sorc" threads are alive and well after all these years.
Now without further interruption, lets all get back into cyrodiil on our DKs.

Have you been to Cyro lately? DKs are going extinct.

I just want to point out that while I'm not saying it's not true, people saying all I see is XYZ class is like when someone buys a car and they now notice their same model when they see it even though it was just as common or uncommon before. I feel like on my platform I see a little bit of all classes and maybe a touch more nbs. Could be sorcs all over the place but if I'm not sensitive to them I wouldn't notice it unless three curses went off on me one after another

We have literal counts posted maybe even in this thread, that shows the trend for PCNA

This thread and these forums are not considered reflective of the player base. We are an extremely small portion of the player base and are very vocal, rather than a random sample typical of a better polling method.

The mentioned counts have nothing to do with this forum and are a from a very good method of a "random sample".

Bushido2513 · July 15

Zabagad wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

LukosCreyden wrote: »

Glad to see the "nerf sorc" threads are alive and well after all these years.
Now without further interruption, lets all get back into cyrodiil on our DKs.

Have you been to Cyro lately? DKs are going extinct.

I just want to point out that while I'm not saying it's not true, people saying all I see is XYZ class is like when someone buys a car and they now notice their same model when they see it even though it was just as common or uncommon before. I feel like on my platform I see a little bit of all classes and maybe a touch more nbs. Could be sorcs all over the place but if I'm not sensitive to them I wouldn't notice it unless three curses went off on me one after another

We have literal counts posted maybe even in this thread, that shows the trend for PCNA

This thread and these forums are not considered reflective of the player base. We are an extremely small portion of the player base and are very vocal, rather than a random sample typical of a better polling method.

The mentioned counts have nothing to do with this forum and are a from a very good method of a "random sample".

I appreciate when players in the community take the time to try to make sense of the parts of the game we can't see. It's also obvious more people are playing sorc right now though that may just be because it's just easier to play.

That being said numbers that can't be cross checked with independent methods / a reverse calculation should be taken with a grain of salt.

Again I'm not saying the outcome doesn't happen to be the case here, just that we're not talking about the full picture.

TechMaybeHic · July 15

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Zabagad wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

LukosCreyden wrote: »

Glad to see the "nerf sorc" threads are alive and well after all these years.
Now without further interruption, lets all get back into cyrodiil on our DKs.

Have you been to Cyro lately? DKs are going extinct.

I just want to point out that while I'm not saying it's not true, people saying all I see is XYZ class is like when someone buys a car and they now notice their same model when they see it even though it was just as common or uncommon before. I feel like on my platform I see a little bit of all classes and maybe a touch more nbs. Could be sorcs all over the place but if I'm not sensitive to them I wouldn't notice it unless three curses went off on me one after another

We have literal counts posted maybe even in this thread, that shows the trend for PCNA

This thread and these forums are not considered reflective of the player base. We are an extremely small portion of the player base and are very vocal, rather than a random sample typical of a better polling method.

The mentioned counts have nothing to do with this forum and are a from a very good method of a "random sample".

I appreciate when players in the community take the time to try to make sense of the parts of the game we can't see. It's also obvious more people are playing sorc right now though that may just be because it's just easier to play.

That being said numbers that can't be cross checked with independent methods / a reverse calculation should be taken with a grain of salt.

Again I'm not saying the outcome doesn't happen to be the case here, just that we're not talking about the full picture.

You could question the numbers being complete but they have been doing the same method over time so the trend is clear.

Bushido2513 · July 15

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Zabagad wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

LukosCreyden wrote: »

Glad to see the "nerf sorc" threads are alive and well after all these years.
Now without further interruption, lets all get back into cyrodiil on our DKs.

Have you been to Cyro lately? DKs are going extinct.

I just want to point out that while I'm not saying it's not true, people saying all I see is XYZ class is like when someone buys a car and they now notice their same model when they see it even though it was just as common or uncommon before. I feel like on my platform I see a little bit of all classes and maybe a touch more nbs. Could be sorcs all over the place but if I'm not sensitive to them I wouldn't notice it unless three curses went off on me one after another

We have literal counts posted maybe even in this thread, that shows the trend for PCNA

This thread and these forums are not considered reflective of the player base. We are an extremely small portion of the player base and are very vocal, rather than a random sample typical of a better polling method.

The mentioned counts have nothing to do with this forum and are a from a very good method of a "random sample".

I appreciate when players in the community take the time to try to make sense of the parts of the game we can't see. It's also obvious more people are playing sorc right now though that may just be because it's just easier to play.

That being said numbers that can't be cross checked with independent methods / a reverse calculation should be taken with a grain of salt.

Again I'm not saying the outcome doesn't happen to be the case here, just that we're not talking about the full picture.

You could question the numbers being complete but they have been doing the same method over time so the trend is clear.

I agree more people are playing sorc at the moment. Again though is it because the class is more easily accessible or because it's busted? That's where we get into theories with no clear answer

Desiato · July 15

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

This "we can't know for sure" reasoning is bunk. ZOS most definitely has data from gameplay and feedback. There are now literally thousands of recent posts about Hardened Ward, no other PvP topic comes close. ZOS will notice that.

We know that at least some ZOS combat designers understand the game well enough to know how impactful this change would be in PVP.

ZOS knew what would happen, but they cared more about what they were trying to accomplish in PVE than they did about how awful this would be for PVP.

PVP is largely irrelevant to them when it comes to gameplay design. They merely give it lip service in patch notes.

It's amazing to me that some people seem to think that ZOS as an entity -- I'm not speaking about all individuals -- care at all about PVP. There's not one or two things wrong with it. It's a gameplay disaster that keeps getting worse.

xylena_lazarow · July 15

Desiato wrote: »

It's amazing to me that some people seem to think that ZOS as an entity -- I'm not speaking about all individuals -- care at all about PVP.

They care enough to keep advertising it, promoting events for it, making sets for it, and yes making PvP balance tweaks (such as the MDW nerf all the potatoes were crying years for). Players have weird ideas about game development.

Desiato · July 15

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Desiato wrote: »

It's amazing to me that some people seem to think that ZOS as an entity -- I'm not speaking about all individuals -- care at all about PVP.

They care enough to keep advertising it, promoting events for it, making sets for it, and yes making PvP balance tweaks (such as the MDW nerf all the potatoes were crying years for). Players have weird ideas about game development.

Those are minor things in the backdrop of major issues at both technical and gameplay levels.

Even when they do recognize an error, it can take them years to correct it.

Though what people enjoy is subjective, there are traits most good PVP games share and drawbacks that PVP focused games have tried to avoid -- like overly long, drawn out fights, stalemates and gross imbalances.

I think there are individuals at ZOS, including high ranking ones, who love Cyrodiil and PVP. I think people like them are why Cyro still exists. But to ZOS as an entity, it is an afterthought.

The buff to Sorc is evidence of that. I don't believe any player with a clue read those patch notes for the first time and thought "oh that's a good balanced change." Its impact was felt immediately without a care from ZOS.

Tcholl · July 15

Everyone insisting that Ward is balanced right now, waiting for them to keep as it is, should consider that the coin has two sides. Maybe, their vision (devs) to the near future is to slowly take the burst away of the sorcs. Next patch, Curse will be blockable for example.

If this is the case, Sorcs main might be the ones complaining soon, as they will keep the tankyness, but at the cost of their burst damage.

I say this because it is becoming very clear how the class is overperforming right now and this will not last for many patches. We have already seen some movement in that direction.

xylena_lazarow · July 15

Tcholl wrote: »

I say this because it is becoming very clear how the class is overperforming right now and this will not last for many patches. We have already seen some movement in that direction.

They've eventually addressed most of the consistent complaints related to specific sets or skills, often multiple times for the same element. Wider metagame issues like cross healing are harder to address, but with literal thousands of posts on Hardened Ward specifically, I'd wager it's on their radar, their process is much slower than we players would like.

Tcholl · July 15

I believe the changes happen slowly, but surely, since we can often see a direction in they way the devs want to go.

Bushido2513 · July 15

Desiato wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Desiato wrote: »

It's amazing to me that some people seem to think that ZOS as an entity -- I'm not speaking about all individuals -- care at all about PVP.

They care enough to keep advertising it, promoting events for it, making sets for it, and yes making PvP balance tweaks (such as the MDW nerf all the potatoes were crying years for). Players have weird ideas about game development.

Those are minor things in the backdrop of major issues at both technical and gameplay levels.

Even when they do recognize an error, it can take them years to correct it.

Though what people enjoy is subjective, there are traits most good PVP games share and drawbacks that PVP focused games have tried to avoid -- like overly long, drawn out fights, stalemates and gross imbalances.

I think there are individuals at ZOS, including high ranking ones, who love Cyrodiil and PVP. I think people like them are why Cyro still exists. But to ZOS as an entity, it is an afterthought.

The buff to Sorc is evidence of that. I don't believe any player with a clue read those patch notes for the first time and thought "oh that's a good balanced change." Its impact was felt immediately without a care from ZOS.

There are a couple of interesting things about what you're saying though. We only know about the uptick in sorcs because people are playing sorcs in PVP. My point is that people are playing the game. People aren't saying man there's nobody on all the time but instead saying look at all these sorcs due to this bad change. I think ZOS only worries about less players in the game and that's not what we're seeing.

I just think it's interesting that people are saying it's not a good change yet people seem to be getting into said change. Yes of course we can say they are doing it because they are just abusing it but I'd argue this change really does just make magsorc more accessible and people are enjoying that availability perhaps.

Bushido2513 · July 15

Tcholl wrote: »

Everyone insisting that Ward is balanced right now, waiting for them to keep as it is, should consider that the coin has two sides. Maybe, their vision (devs) to the near future is to slowly take the burst away of the sorcs. Next patch, Curse will be blockable for example.

If this is the case, Sorcs main might be the ones complaining soon, as they will keep the tankyness, but at the cost of their burst damage.

I say this because it is becoming very clear how the class is overperforming right now and this will not last for many patches. We have already seen some movement in that direction.

Everyone has a preference but I'd say I'd be ok with keeping defense at the cost of some offense. I say that because for me I find the the gap between killable and tanky is very wide in this game in some cases. So if I lose some damage I'd probably still be able to kill the same people I could before.

Bushido2513 · July 15

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Tcholl wrote: »

I say this because it is becoming very clear how the class is overperforming right now and this will not last for many patches. We have already seen some movement in that direction.

They've eventually addressed most of the consistent complaints related to specific sets or skills, often multiple times for the same element. Wider metagame issues like cross healing are harder to address, but with literal thousands of posts on Hardened Ward specifically, I'd wager it's on their radar, their process is much slower than we players would like.

I'm pretty sure they will change it actually. I've trend they keep repeating is making changes back and forth to please one side or the other or just to keep the game fresh. They will write it up in dev notes to say we've received some notes about the strength of ward and have made changes to address it. It's one big shell game with ZOS development

Tinkerhorn · July 15

.

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Desiato wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Desiato wrote: »

It's amazing to me that some people seem to think that ZOS as an entity -- I'm not speaking about all individuals -- care at all about PVP.

They care enough to keep advertising it, promoting events for it, making sets for it, and yes making PvP balance tweaks (such as the MDW nerf all the potatoes were crying years for). Players have weird ideas about game development.

Those are minor things in the backdrop of major issues at both technical and gameplay levels.

Even when they do recognize an error, it can take them years to correct it.

Though what people enjoy is subjective, there are traits most good PVP games share and drawbacks that PVP focused games have tried to avoid -- like overly long, drawn out fights, stalemates and gross imbalances.

I think there are individuals at ZOS, including high ranking ones, who love Cyrodiil and PVP. I think people like them are why Cyro still exists. But to ZOS as an entity, it is an afterthought.

The buff to Sorc is evidence of that. I don't believe any player with a clue read those patch notes for the first time and thought "oh that's a good balanced change." Its impact was felt immediately without a care from ZOS.

There are a couple of interesting things about what you're saying though. We only know about the uptick in sorcs because people are playing sorcs in PVP. My point is that people are playing the game. People aren't saying man there's nobody on all the time but instead saying look at all these sorcs due to this bad change. I think ZOS only worries about less players in the game and that's not what we're seeing.

I just think it's interesting that people are saying it's not a good change yet people seem to be getting into said change. Yes of course we can say they are doing it because they are just abusing it but I'd argue this change really does just make magsorc more accessible and people are enjoying that availability perhaps.

I'm unsure if youre suggesting that the player base is benfitting numerically due to this change as you don't outright state it that there are more, but reading it I think it's fair for me to assume that by implication you believe more people are playing the game due to the sorc change, at which point I would like to know your source for this as anecdotally, PC EU I am experiencing a great reduction not just in friend activity within a certain timeframe, but also in the length of time people are spending on the game. Not just that, I am finding within guilds that the tolerance of PvP has diminished greatly. People are logging off sooner than they used to and openly saying they just can't be bothered with this anymore. Honestly I feel so many red flags and yet not only are you contrarian to the large majority of views on ward in spite of information presented to you, you're now also contrarian on the health of the game's population?

I could be biased, I am undoubtedly so, but I have to agree with you on one point.

Bushido2513 wrote: »

It's funny because I feel like I'm playing a different game then some of the players commenting here.

Desiato · July 15

Bushido2513 wrote: »

I just think it's interesting that people are saying it's not a good change yet people seem to be getting into said change. Yes of course we can say they are doing it because they are just abusing it but I'd argue this change really does just make magsorc more accessible and people are enjoying that availability perhaps.

It's like this in most games when something is OP. OP aspects will always be defended by those who are taking advantage of them.

The first OP class in ESO was mdk. It was clear as day, yet the opposition to adjusting it was fierce because so many players played it.

I don't think the OP sorc has made PVP more popular. The opposite is true. One reason I'm not PVPing right now is because sorcs are a total waste of time. They're the most annoying of all the tanks because they can constantly disengage, reset and come back to annoy again -- while maintaining glass cannon burst. Truly removing them from an area means chasing them halfway across the map. They are an epitome of everything wrong with PVP gameplay atm.

Alchimiste1 · July 15

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

@Bushido2513 In your opinion do you think that ward is currently fair and balanced ?

For me personally both in the way that I use it and in all the enemies I've come up against using it, it feels fine.

Now that being said I'd like to be clear about where I think some of the issue is coming from for other players. My build and playstyle is simple. You probably can't kill me and I might be able to kill you. If I can't kill you and there's no help around then I just move on.

In regards to the way that I use ward, I'm a max mag build but I don't sell out for it. So for me I am tanky but I take damage on the regular and can't sit still by any means with more then one player. So for me it feels fine because I have to actively play the game and can't just nuke people while also being able to not die. I've also fought other ward users and if I can't kill them I just move on though I've been able to kill enough that I don't feel like I did when I saw an Arcanist and was like automatic skip.

I think if your objective is that 1v1 you should be able to kill a ward users then yeah it's a complete struggle. That being said I test players all the time to see if I can kill them on all classes and I've had a lot of 1v1s where I couldn't kill them but we both had damage.

So for me that's back to being fine and balanced because I never feel like anything is a default where I can always kill people or they always can't kill me.

Another interesting thing about the ward change is that it allowed me to have one more bar slot and I really appreciate how much easier my gameplay has gotten. Again easier but not to where I'm dominating by far, I just get to enjoy playing the class.

Thanks! That’s all I needed to know.
No point to try and convince you otherwise

Bushido2513 · July 15

Tinkerhorn wrote: »

.

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Desiato wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Desiato wrote: »

It's amazing to me that some people seem to think that ZOS as an entity -- I'm not speaking about all individuals -- care at all about PVP.

They care enough to keep advertising it, promoting events for it, making sets for it, and yes making PvP balance tweaks (such as the MDW nerf all the potatoes were crying years for). Players have weird ideas about game development.

Those are minor things in the backdrop of major issues at both technical and gameplay levels.

Even when they do recognize an error, it can take them years to correct it.

Though what people enjoy is subjective, there are traits most good PVP games share and drawbacks that PVP focused games have tried to avoid -- like overly long, drawn out fights, stalemates and gross imbalances.

I think there are individuals at ZOS, including high ranking ones, who love Cyrodiil and PVP. I think people like them are why Cyro still exists. But to ZOS as an entity, it is an afterthought.

The buff to Sorc is evidence of that. I don't believe any player with a clue read those patch notes for the first time and thought "oh that's a good balanced change." Its impact was felt immediately without a care from ZOS.

There are a couple of interesting things about what you're saying though. We only know about the uptick in sorcs because people are playing sorcs in PVP. My point is that people are playing the game. People aren't saying man there's nobody on all the time but instead saying look at all these sorcs due to this bad change. I think ZOS only worries about less players in the game and that's not what we're seeing.

I just think it's interesting that people are saying it's not a good change yet people seem to be getting into said change. Yes of course we can say they are doing it because they are just abusing it but I'd argue this change really does just make magsorc more accessible and people are enjoying that availability perhaps.

I'm unsure if youre suggesting that the player base is benfitting numerically due to this change as you don't outright state it that there are more, but reading it I think it's fair for me to assume that by implication you believe more people are playing the game due to the sorc change, at which point I would like to know your source for this as anecdotally, PC EU I am experiencing a great reduction not just in friend activity within a certain timeframe, but also in the length of time people are spending on the game. Not just that, I am finding within guilds that the tolerance of PvP has diminished greatly. People are logging off sooner than they used to and openly saying they just can't be bothered with this anymore. Honestly I feel so many red flags and yet not only are you contrarian to the large majority of views on ward in spite of information presented to you, you're now also contrarian on the health of the game's population?

I could be biased, I am undoubtedly so, but I have to agree with you on one point.

Bushido2513 wrote: »

It's funny because I feel like I'm playing a different game then some of the players commenting here.

Well that's the thing is that we all see what we see and that's just anecdotal. I'm not actually saying the population has grown or diminished, I have no way to really prove that. What I'm saying is that if players complain that there are lots of sorcs or sorcs wherever they go then actual players are logged on playing those sorcs so someone is enjoying the game.

In regards to population my observation has been that it has diminished but that started long ago and is many more things other than ward. I see a lot of the same names when I play the game and so yeah it's pretty stale. That being said I still enjoy playing the game but anyone can see that it could be miles better with a larger population but that would take several several changes and it's very much not about ward in so many ways. I'm not saying that ward is in a proper place because I don't have data to make that claim. For me it works but I certainly see why it doesn't for others.

Bushido2513 · July 15

Desiato wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

I just think it's interesting that people are saying it's not a good change yet people seem to be getting into said change. Yes of course we can say they are doing it because they are just abusing it but I'd argue this change really does just make magsorc more accessible and people are enjoying that availability perhaps.

It's like this in most games when something is OP. OP aspects will always be defended by those who are taking advantage of them.

The first OP class in ESO was mdk. It was clear as day, yet the opposition to adjusting it was fierce because so many players played it.

I don't think the OP sorc has made PVP more popular. The opposite is true. One reason I'm not PVPing right now is because sorcs are a total waste of time. They're the most annoying of all the tanks because they can constantly disengage, reset and come back to annoy again -- while maintaining glass cannon burst. Truly removing them from an area means chasing them halfway across the map. They are an epitome of everything wrong with PVP gameplay atm.

I'm not saying population has grown or shrunk, I don't have that data but I'm just saying people complain about sorcs being all over the place and that requires players playing sorcs so there's people enjoying the change to some degree.

Of course this will run some players off and that's to be expected. I just think zos knows how to keep a certain minimum threshold of players and will make changes to accommodate that as needed.

I will agree and I've said previously, I can totally see the problem where players want a more competitive experience where players die. I just work around it but that doesn't mean it's not an issue so yes I can see that point of view.

Bushido2513 · July 15

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

@Bushido2513 In your opinion do you think that ward is currently fair and balanced ?

For me personally both in the way that I use it and in all the enemies I've come up against using it, it feels fine.

Now that being said I'd like to be clear about where I think some of the issue is coming from for other players. My build and playstyle is simple. You probably can't kill me and I might be able to kill you. If I can't kill you and there's no help around then I just move on.

In regards to the way that I use ward, I'm a max mag build but I don't sell out for it. So for me I am tanky but I take damage on the regular and can't sit still by any means with more then one player. So for me it feels fine because I have to actively play the game and can't just nuke people while also being able to not die. I've also fought other ward users and if I can't kill them I just move on though I've been able to kill enough that I don't feel like I did when I saw an Arcanist and was like automatic skip.

I think if your objective is that 1v1 you should be able to kill a ward users then yeah it's a complete struggle. That being said I test players all the time to see if I can kill them on all classes and I've had a lot of 1v1s where I couldn't kill them but we both had damage.

So for me that's back to being fine and balanced because I never feel like anything is a default where I can always kill people or they always can't kill me.

Another interesting thing about the ward change is that it allowed me to have one more bar slot and I really appreciate how much easier my gameplay has gotten. Again easier but not to where I'm dominating by far, I just get to enjoy playing the class.

Thanks! That’s all I needed to know.
No point to try and convince you otherwise

There's not really much to convince me of to be honest. I'm ok with the ward change but I'm not denying that others don't like it and I'm not saying I don't understand their reasoning.

For me the only thing that is in contention that can't be proved by players is how this change looks on the back end to zos in their metrics. I've posted this multiple times, there's definitely a data criteria that could be met which would indicate that this change is problematic for pvp. Nobody here that I know of has that data so yes otherwise I'm not willing to take fractions of player gathered data as an indicator for the whole of pvp.

xylena_lazarow · July 15

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Nobody here that I know of has that data so yes otherwise I'm not willing to take fractions of player gathered data as an indicator for the whole of pvp.

Your continued rejection of data is noted. There will be more data.