Hardened Ward... Where player based skill can go from C-tier to S+-tier

AvidNecro

Why in Tamriel, did an already decent and...dangerous... class, receive the most broken mechanic to come to live, and not even get tweaked for an entire patch? If anything, the ward was already really strong to begin with. I used to main Sorcerer, its very fun, very aggressive and definitely dangerous in the right hands. Which brings my point across about skill based. There are plenty of games that even state the difficulty of a class before you make your character, but of course that requires you to dive into the class and learn about it and progress to a higher efficiency than the average player.



So why... does an already SOLID class like Sorcerer, need a heal slapped to its main ward??? Please @ZOS_Kevin or @ZOS_GinaBruno or anyone for that matter, why allow such nonsense, enter the game? A good player had no problems with this class, and now anyone can just pick it up and nuke players, creating an environment where battlegrounds, at least on console, are consisted with majority sorcerer players and ZERO diversity. Don't get me wrong it feels good to have your main class be OP and just dominate in PvP, but lets not pretend here... There are plenty of sorc mains that will agree, that this heal attached to hardened ward did not need to happen...

Lets go back to skill based PvP again please.... and for the love of Mara... BUFF NECRO!!!

Theignson

There have been endless posts about how OP ward is. One of the posts was 30+ pages long. Probably ZOS will eventually getting around to nerfing it.

MagSorc used to be one of the hardest classes to play, now it is pretty much EZ mode. Playing my MagSorc now, I have much stronger combined offense and defense than any other of my classes

Firstmep

Theignson wrote: »

There have been endless posts about how OP ward is. One of the posts was 30+ pages long. Probably ZOS will eventually getting around to nerfing it.

MagSorc used to be one of the hardest classes to play, now it is pretty much EZ mode. Playing my MagSorc now, I have much stronger combined offense and defense than any other of my classes

Honestly, sorc in general is strong. Zos did the typical zos thing of slowly buffing the class until it gets op, eventually they will nerf it back down to mortalhood. Us Templars are waiting with open arms.

BetterAtChess

I would be surprised to see ward get a nerf anytime soon. ESO's design philosophy these days can be summed up as 'Press Button Not To Die'. It's all about empowering 'low APM' players and allowing them to survive PVP situations where they should be paying a visit to the shadow realm.

xylena_lazarow

BetterAtChess wrote: »

I would be surprised to see ward get a nerf anytime soon. ESO's design philosophy these days can be summed up as 'Press Button Not To Die'. It's all about empowering 'low APM' players and allowing them to survive PVP situations where they should be paying a visit to the shadow realm.

Helping the low APM guys is fine, but there's gotta be a way to do that without breaking competitive play. What really hurt low APM Sorcs was ZOS deleting Crystal Blast, which was something much more effective to spam than light attacks, and the cast time ensured it never broke competitive play (cast times are fine on ranged CASTers).

JanTanhide

The change to Hardened Ward is a good change. The game is not just for PVP. PVE players are the majority in the game by far and this change has helped many players get achievements done that were difficult before such as Vet Vateshran.

xylena_lazarow

JanTanhide wrote: »

The change to Hardened Ward is a good change. The game is not just for PVP. PVE players are the majority in the game by far and this change has helped many players get achievements done that were difficult before such as Vet Vateshran.

They are perfectly capable of figuring out how to help casual PvE guys without ruining competitive PvP.

Then again, I'm sure a lot of players would try to defend literal god mode.

Urzigurumash

I can't believe at your experience level you haven't learned to roll dodge Avid Necro. I think I've seen you roll dodge before.

Remember one of the laws of ESO Forums, on account of roll dodge a Sorc cannot kill a good player.

xylena_lazarow

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Remember one of the laws of ESO Forums, on account of roll dodge a Sorc cannot kill a good player.

According to ESO forum Sorcs, Streak does not exist.

kurbbie_s

BetterAtChess wrote: »

I would be surprised to see ward get a nerf anytime soon. ESO's design philosophy these days can be summed up as 'Press Button Not To Die'. It's all about empowering 'low APM' players and allowing them to survive PVP situations where they should be paying a visit to the shadow realm.

people that say "low apm" players in eso dont even realize you can only go so fast. Youre allowed 1 skill and 1 light attack per second. thats 2 things per second. The max apm anyone can have is literally 120.

xylena_lazarow

kurbbie_s wrote: »

people that say "low apm" players in eso dont even realize you can only go so fast. Youre allowed 1 skill and 1 light attack per second. thats 2 things per second. The max apm anyone can have is literally 120.

Much higher. You can also perform core combat actions (block, roll, break) and simply move between other gcds. This particular aspect of combat drastically raises the skill ceiling, separating stronger players from weaker ones.

Jsmalls

I still stand by my statement outside of setups with 60k magicka or 50k with rallying cry, this mechanic is not Overtuned.

The 60k magicka setup while still a threat is far from optimal damage.

The rallying cry setup is just carried by a really strong setup that offers unmatched offensive and defensive combination.

Go fight an average Mag Sorc with 45-50k magicka then go fight a top tier Sorc with the same. There will be a significant difference between the two defensively.

50k Magicka is a ~13k Ward and a 3.5k heal. When you consider the mechanics of Ward that is not Overtuned.

xylena_lazarow

Jsmalls wrote: »

50k Magicka is a ~13k Ward and a 3.5k heal. When you consider the mechanics of Ward that is not Overtuned.

Neither of those things are overpowered on their own, but when you mash them into the same GCD, you have a skill that's overloaded, and any remotely skilled player is gonna leverage that opportunity advantage to an unhealthy degree until the devs fix it. The builds you are referring to are full DDs that should absolutely not be face tanking, ever.

Jsmalls

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

50k Magicka is a ~13k Ward and a 3.5k heal. When you consider the mechanics of Ward that is not Overtuned.

Neither of those things are overpowered on their own, but when you mash them into the same GCD, you have a skill that's overloaded, and any remotely skilled player is gonna leverage that opportunity advantage to an unhealthy degree until the devs fix it. The builds you are referring to are full DDs that should absolutely not be face tanking, ever.

Compare this to your Arcanists Ward. Where it retaliates damage, has the opportunity to heal and synergizes with passives.

A 13k ward without any additional mechanics just isn't a viable skill anymore or even balanced for that manner against existing abilities.

Sure we can say than replace it with another skill because there certainly are other options now. But are we really trying to kill a skill that has been a staple for the length the game has been going.

xylena_lazarow

Jsmalls wrote: »

A 13k ward without any additional mechanics just isn't a viable skill anymore or even balanced for that manner against existing abilities.

Do you know what those tanky Arcs are actually doing? Mostly just spamming a gigantic empty shield because their Crux is gone after the first cast. If they want heals underneath they need Vigor or to micromanage Runeguard. But they face tank because spamming a giant empty shield is super strong on its own and really needs no other effects to be that strong. I played plenty of Arc and gave no hoots about any other component of Impervious. It's a giant shield I can spam.

Pelanora

Come to the forums to learn that your class is no good; then come to the forums to learn it is op.

What peace will there be for the sorc.

StaticWave

kurbbie_s wrote: »

BetterAtChess wrote: »

I would be surprised to see ward get a nerf anytime soon. ESO's design philosophy these days can be summed up as 'Press Button Not To Die'. It's all about empowering 'low APM' players and allowing them to survive PVP situations where they should be paying a visit to the shadow realm.

people that say "low apm" players in eso dont even realize you can only go so fast. Youre allowed 1 skill and 1 light attack per second. thats 2 things per second. The max apm anyone can have is literally 120.

You can do these things in 1 second (Global Cool Down):

- Light attack
- Skill
- Bash
- Block/roll dodge/bar swap

As demonstrated by this CMX data below:



Low APM players can only do a light attack or a light attack + skill in 1 second. Just being able to bar swap/roll dodge cancel already puts them at a massive advantage compared to someone who doesn't bars wap/roll dodge.

StaticWave

Jsmalls wrote: »

I still stand by my statement outside of setups with 60k magicka or 50k with rallying cry, this mechanic is not Overtuned.

The 60k magicka setup while still a threat is far from optimal damage.

The rallying cry setup is just carried by a really strong setup that offers unmatched offensive and defensive combination.

Go fight an average Mag Sorc with 45-50k magicka then go fight a top tier Sorc with the same. There will be a significant difference between the two defensively.

50k Magicka is a ~13k Ward and a 3.5k heal. When you consider the mechanics of Ward that is not Overtuned.

Since you've stated that you're a magsorc main, I urge you to hop on a non-shield class and fight the mag sorcs you're defending, against both casual and top tier players.

It would be eye-opening for you first of all, and will make the discussion more constructive. I've fought as magsorc and against magsorcs and I can tell you without a doubt that magsorc is being hard carried by Ward right now. In fact, there is a reason most of them still won't slot Healing Soul despite it being stronger than Healthy Offering, which is one of the best single target burst heals in the game. It's simple: Ward is currently the best self-heal in the entire game, period.

divnyi

Jsmalls wrote: »

50k Magicka is a ~13k Ward and a 3.5k heal. When you consider the mechanics of Ward that is not Overtuned.

Dude, bruh, how is 16k healing (with shield, which is even better) not overloaded?
Which damage skill can do 16k every GCD without any setup?
How am I supposed to kill them 1:1, even if I stack damage sets?
No set can transform my 6k damage spammable into 16k damage spammable.

Jsmalls

A 15k Ward was very much possible and utilized last update. Not only was it not considered overpowered, it wasn't even on the table for discussion as a significant defense tool. It had Mag Sorcs in the B/C tier list for PvP. So to speak on 16k (unmitigatable temporary health for the vast majority of it) being this unkillable skill is just inaccurate. And if the Sorc is spending every GCD putting that Ward up it's the same as another class block casting heals every GCD.

I'm in agreeance that there are extremes of this ability that are Overtuned. But target those extremes.

My argument here is not for those couple setups. This change made so many different variations of Sorcs viable and competitive that did not exist last patch (which is where my bias comes from for defending this skill).

@StaticWave

Ive enjoyed playing this class and I can't say I have any desire to main another. The time it would take me to get on the competitive level with any entirely different defensive style would likely take months. Months I'm just not willing to put into to prove a point.

What I can speak on is my experience fighting thousands of other players on those opposing classes (as well as on Sorcs). And I can legitimately say great players on most of the classes are equally as hard to put down as great players on Sorcs. Can I tell when a Sorc is stacking magicka / has rallying cry on? Absolutely they are a huge pain in the @ss. But not any more of a pain than a 40k health warden or Arcanist. Or a 35k health DK or Templar holding their ground (which they should be harder to put down because they are required to setup their "house".) This game is in a state of if you're in a 1v1 and you dont want to die, you can generally keep yourself alive.

StaticWave

Jsmalls wrote: »

@StaticWave

Ive enjoyed playing this class and I can't say I have any desire to main another. The time it would take me to get on the competitive level with any entirely different defensive style would likely take months. Months I'm just not willing to put into to prove a point.

What I can speak on is my experience fighting thousands of other players on those opposing classes (as well as on Sorcs). And I can legitimately say great players on most of the classes are equally as hard to put down as great players on Sorcs. Can I tell when a Sorc is stacking magicka / has rallying cry on? Absolutely they are a huge pain in the @ss. But not any more of a pain than a 40k health warden or Arcanist. Or a 35k health DK or Templar holding their ground (which they should be harder to put down because they are required to setup their "house".) This game is in a state of if you're in a 1v1 and you dont want to die, you can generally keep yourself alive.

Then you can't make an unbiased comment because you haven't experienced what it's like to play against your class on another class. I main stamsorc, but I also use Ward on a high HP build. I occasionally also swap to magsorc when I'm bored. I can tell you with 100% certainty that both specs are being HARD carried by Ward.

It doesn't matter if you fight other classes, because the discussion is not about them. It's about your class and how difficult it is to deal with a Ward spamming magsorc that can also do great damage and Streak away at any moment. A 40 HP Warden or a DK can't reset the fight or chase down a mobile player the same way a Sorc can. It's a necessary trade-off keeping those classes from having everything. Magsorc has EVERYTHING right now, with tankiness, damage, and mobility. One of them has to go.

Again, I urge you to try fighting your own class on a non-shield spec. You could drop Ward on Sorc too and slot Healing Soul/Healing Contingency/Vibrant Shroud. It would be eye-opening for you, and it would make this discussion more constructive. Just 1 simple fight in a non-shield build against a shielding magsorc will speak more than 50 pages of comments in my thread.

StaticWave

Jsmalls wrote: »

Can I tell when a Sorc is stacking magicka / has rallying cry on? Absolutely they are a huge pain in the @ss. But not any more of a pain than a 40k health warden or Arcanist. Or a 35k health DK or Templar holding their ground (which they should be harder to put down because they are required to setup their "house".) This game is in a state of if you're in a 1v1 and you dont want to die, you can generally keep yourself alive.

This statement is what I would expect from a magsorc main. You have no idea what sacrifice other classes have to make to survive because you only play 1 spec. Not even the entire class (both stam and mag), but 1 spec (just magsorc). If you only used Ward, then everything looks greener on the other side and you don't understand how a burst heal with block isn't as good as you make it to be.

I've already explained to you that without investment into block cost reduction, blocking is very taxing on your stamina/magicka against good players. A good player will light attack/spammable/bash almost every single GCD, which will drain your stamina twice in 1 second due to block cost having a 0.25s cooldown. If you were blocking on front bar, you'd lose around 2.5k+ stam per second after Survival Instinct CP has been accounted for. In no-CP, that's a whooping 3k stam lost from blocking a simple light attack/spammable/bash combo. On Ice Staff/SnB bar, you'll lose around 1.8k stam/mag in CP and 2k+ in no-CP. Depending on how low you are and how much pressure you're taking, you will be cutting off your own recovery for at least 1-2 ticks while holding block. Now compare that opportunity cost to simply casting a 14k Ward that also heals for 3-4k non crit burst heal, free from having to cut off your own regen or draining your stam via blocking, while also able to survive through the onslaught.

Ward is a unique defensive mechanic that allows the player to shield from both DoTs and burst damage. It has its advantages:

- Shielding against DoTs and burst

And disadvantage:

- It doesn't get you out of execute range

That disadvantage no longer exists when ZOS introduced a burst heal mechanic underneath the shield. Hardened Ward now does 3 things in 1 ability:

- Shields against DoTs (which burst heals cannot do and have to be complemented by a HoT)
- Shields against burst (which burst heals cannot do either and have to be complemented by blocking/roll dodging or even cleansing because some burst abilities like Curse or Purifying Light are unblockable/undodgable)
- Also gets you out of execute range.

It functionally has no weakness. You don't need to block because a 14k Ward can tank through almost every burst ability. You don't need to worry about getting executed either because a 14k Ward will eat that Execute and a 3-4k non-crit burst heal will get you out of execute range. Every subsequent Ward cast will have reduced that Execute damage multiplier and within 2-3 casts you will be out of execute range and back to full health.

The worst thing about all of this is magsorc is currently the ONLY class that can build almost full damage with zero investment into defense and still be just as tanky as a 40k HP Warden or DK. You simply cannot make that comparison in good faith because those classes have to give up substantial amounts of offensive stats or resource sustain (less max resources or weapon/spell damage) to improve their defensive stats (HP and resistances). A magsorc in U42 has the damage of a squishy NB ganker, but with the tankiness of a 40k HP Warden and the mobility of a Sorc. It's just absurd how anybody can defend this class in its current state.

Of course, you could experience what I described by simply slotting a burst heal instead of Ward and fighting against your own class, but I know you won't do that. That's okay too, but your comment will no longer hold any credibility from that point on.

Pelanora

You know static, it's almost like you want this miracle of generosity by zos taken away from us sorcs. Maybe that's just me, but it seems suspiciously like it.

Bluestin

Pelanora wrote: »

You know static, it's almost like you want this miracle of generosity by zos taken away from us sorcs. Maybe that's just me, but it seems suspiciously like it.

I think they just want the balance between classes to return down to Nirn. I miss some of the older patches; when Necromancers weren't in the pits (the graveyard harmony thing was the only visually "cool" thing they had imo).

Sorcerers were dangerous, but if they over-committed they'd die instead of healing behind a massive barrier.

Or when Nightblades were dangerous if they caught you unawares, and could build more bruiser, but weren't as insanely bursty as they are now.

Templars weren't forced to be long ranged laser pointers.

Dragon Knights have kind of always been ever so slightly overly strong, but back then a lot of other classes were also strong enough to stand up to them.

The round-robin buffing into the stratosphere and later anticipated nerfing style is, for me, just as displeasing as the rapid-fire class changes we used to get before they stated they'd slow down. All of this outside the larger issue of ball group things. PvP is in a weird state these days.

Pelanora

Yea I was just teasing. I get it.

You tell a compelling story of better times, @Bluestin

StaticWave

Pelanora wrote: »

You know static, it's almost like you want this miracle of generosity by zos taken away from us sorcs. Maybe that's just me, but it seems suspiciously like it.

I do, and for good reason. I've made numerous comments asking for MINOR buffs to Sorc to help the class. This is not it, not even close to a minor buff.

In U41, Sorc received 3 changes:

- 10% max stam and magicka
- Burst heal on Hardened Ward
- Vibrant Shroud becomes an AoE burst heal with Major Maim and Minor Vitality

Then in U42, Sorc received another key change:

- Blood Magic passive now procs whenever you use a Dark Magic ability

The 10% max mag/stam and Blood Magic rework was more than enough to help magsorc in competitive PvP. It allows you to proc this passive everytime you cast Dark Deal, cFrag, or Vibrant Shroud (an AoE burst heal with Major Maim and Minor Vitality. Then you also have Healing Soul from Scribing, which gives a burst heal tooltip comparable to Healthy Offering, 1k stam and mag when you use it, and Major Vitality.

If Sorc wanted more healing, why not slot those burst heals? After all, you guys kept complaining about having weak heals, and probably complained about Arcanist being too tanky with Impervious Ward. Yet when Sorc received an even better version of Impervious Ward it's suddenly ok lol?

Hardened Ward is overperforming, no question about it.

divnyi

Jsmalls wrote: »

the same as another class block casting heals every GCD.

You know that nothing in ward description stops you from blockcasting it?
You know why other classes do blockcasting heals? Because they die otherwise.

Jsmalls wrote: »

A 15k Ward was very much possible and utilized last update.

That's the point. It was strong already, but it had counterplay in executes.
I had high armor & magica sorc with big shields 2 years ago, I came back and I laughed when I saw this change.
This char is indestructible now.

Turtle_Bot

divnyi wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

the same as another class block casting heals every GCD.

You know that nothing in ward description stops you from blockcasting it?
You know why other classes do blockcasting heals? Because they die otherwise.

You know that block casting ward doesn't do anything because ward doesn't gain block mitigation and you actively hinder yourself by dropping your speed when blocking.
You know why magsorc uses ward? because they die otherwise.

Jsmalls wrote: »

A 15k Ward was very much possible and utilized last update.

That's the point. It was strong already, but it had counterplay in executes.
I had high armor & magica sorc with big shields 2 years ago, I came back and I laughed when I saw this change.
This char is indestructible now.

And that was his point, before U41, ward had TOO MUCH counter play that was too easy and too punishing for all but the top 1% of magsorcs in the game because magsorc as a whole had nothing good to supplement ward.

and before you reply, I agree that with the burst heal ward doesn't have enough counter play and that needs adjusting, but what needs to happen is what has been suggested on other threads by people like @StaticWave find a good middle ground for ward (or magsorc in general), better than it was in U41 but not as strong as it currently is.

Too bad that majority on the forums will never be happy no matter how ward is addressed since all the majority of commenters really want is for their favourite punching bag of a class being made completely trash again, so they can go back to having their free kills in PvP.

xylena_lazarow

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

find a good middle ground for ward

Agreed, but that's the devs' job, not ours. I remain confident that the devs are perfectly capable of buffing casual Sorc survival without wrecking competitive play. There are a million ways to do this, us players are not the ones to determine whether the Ward heal should be turned into a hot (how big?), nerfed by x%, put on a cooldown, deleted altogether, etc.

StaticWave wrote: »

Then you can't make an unbiased comment because you haven't experienced what it's like to play against your class on another class.

I asked @Jsmalls and friends to play some Arc a while back. Wonder if they have yet. They keep trying to claim that Arc can match Sorc, which is laughable. You can't spam Impervious as a heal. You have no range. You have no mobility. Your damage is garbage without relying hard on specific procs, and even then you're just a slower clumsier DK. You can claim Arc is strong on paper all you want, but you won't understand until you try to 1v1 any decent MagSorc as an Arc. It's a joke.

Turtle_Bot

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

find a good middle ground for ward

Agreed, but that's the devs' job, not ours. I remain confident that the devs are perfectly capable of buffing casual Sorc survival without wrecking competitive play. There are a million ways to do this, us players are not the ones to determine whether the Ward heal should be turned into a hot (how big?), nerfed by x%, put on a cooldown, deleted altogether, etc.

Now if only those calling for ward to get deleted would be told this in response to their crying so that it's not just one sided comments all the time 🤔

Probably be much less back and forth when talking about things that need to be balanced too.

Bushido2513

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

JanTanhide wrote: »

The change to Hardened Ward is a good change. The game is not just for PVP. PVE players are the majority in the game by far and this change has helped many players get achievements done that were difficult before such as Vet Vateshran.

They are perfectly capable of figuring out how to help casual PvE guys without ruining competitive PvP.

Then again, I'm sure a lot of players would try to defend literal god mode.

Serious question here, do you know the scope of what you're asking? Have you looked at the limitations and code that got us here and what it would take to do what you're asking in that context? You should absolutely be confident that what you're asking is technically possible because it is. The resources to achieve it though would be asking quite a lot.

Without sperating pvp and pve you have a huge balance issue that easily presents sometimes with the smallest change. Ideally separating those two would give devs a lot of room to write specific rules which would be amazing for both sides but require all skills to be looked at and balanced for both sides. Pve would be much easier obviously but pvp would require many passes.

That being said all the code is inter connected and making a system that scales for casuals and vets in pvp takes a lot of care. This would be quite the investment for ZOS. And yes the argument is there that if you make a better game you get more players and I agree. Sometimes though you take that swing and players go play some other game and you're left in the red for trying to do the right thing.

I say all of this to give some viewpoints on the requirements of the belief you have.