Hardened Ward... Where player based skill can go from C-tier to S+-tier

Tcholl · July 10

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Tcholl wrote: »

No changes coming to ward on U43, but instead they will nerf curse as a single target and make it blockable. Any thoughts on that everyone? I personally dont like when I see them taking burst out of classes.

I love this change. Nigh uncounterable burst damage has always been bad design. The stalemate Sorcs are still gonna do that, skilled damage Sorcs are gonna time their Curse explosions with their Streak or DB stun burst like the old school MagSorcs from the first few years of the game, when... yup, Curse was originally blockable lol. No damage is actually being lost, and this makes it easier for Sorcs to AoE down npc guards, which is actual nice QoL.

good point!

Metemsycosis · July 11

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

[snip]

[snip] Anyway, you can keep your healy shield if we can have Cloak and Streak on all the brawler classes. It's only fair that if NB gets Dark Cloak, Plar should get Light Cloak. DK should be able to spam ground target dragon leaps the way Sorc can spam Streak. Remove all the limitations on the Arc portal.

[edited for baiting & to remove quote]

Vampire ?

xylena_lazarow · July 11

Metemsycosis wrote: »

Vampire ?

Do vampires dragon leap? No, DK needs something as thematic and strong as Streak. Vamp mist is mid.

Pelanora · July 11

DK gets wings. Warden gets wings.

Sorcs need wings.

xylena_lazarow · July 11

Pelanora wrote: »

DK gets wings. Warden gets wings. Sorcs need wings.

Sure, Sorc can have the old Ball Lightning back, the one with infinite projectile absorption, and DK gets its original wings that had infinite reflection and could ping pong meteors back and forth. When everything is op, nothing is!

Bushido2513 · July 11

StaticWave wrote: »

Quackery wrote: »

Leave our shields alone! It's the only way for us magsorcs to be of any use at all during flag fights in emp keeps. I love that ZOS made magsorcs more viable in fights in tight spaces. Not everything needs adjustments - we already had a nerf to our shields a while ago, and got it restored. [snip]

[edited for baiting]

Shield needs to be nerfed. I'm tired of dealing with magsorcs everywhere I go. They require extra efforts to put down and just when you almost put them down they Streak away and reset the fight. It's obnoxious to fight them as other classes and when I hop on magsorc I feel like cheating. Nerf shield and we will have a balanced magsorc.

I've been in this spot before where you feel like you don't want to run something but that not running it causes you to be at a loss. I do hope ZOS can find a reasonable accommodation that fits the majority of players. I'm not really affected regardless of the direction it goes but I am curious to see what ZOS will do.

I mean the latest patch notes do offer some hope in terms of the game overall so maybe shields will come later on. I think after the update it just may be possible to really drop the hammer on a vamp sorc with the right build but that's just a theory at this point.

TechMaybeHic · July 11

Im just going to enjoy sorc for now. I'll watch that percentage go up as people see no real nerfs, and just some very moderate adjustments to the worst class in Necro. Honestly looking forward to curse doing full AOE. I mean, you need to have some sort of AOE class with Warden getting knocked down a bit

StaticWave · July 11

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Quackery wrote: »

Leave our shields alone! It's the only way for us magsorcs to be of any use at all during flag fights in emp keeps. I love that ZOS made magsorcs more viable in fights in tight spaces. Not everything needs adjustments - we already had a nerf to our shields a while ago, and got it restored. [snip]

[edited for baiting]

Shield needs to be nerfed. I'm tired of dealing with magsorcs everywhere I go. They require extra efforts to put down and just when you almost put them down they Streak away and reset the fight. It's obnoxious to fight them as other classes and when I hop on magsorc I feel like cheating. Nerf shield and we will have a balanced magsorc.

I've been in this spot before where you feel like you don't want to run something but that not running it causes you to be at a loss. I do hope ZOS can find a reasonable accommodation that fits the majority of players. I'm not really affected regardless of the direction it goes but I am curious to see what ZOS will do.

I mean the latest patch notes do offer some hope in terms of the game overall so maybe shields will come later on. I think after the update it just may be possible to really drop the hammer on a vamp sorc with the right build but that's just a theory at this point.

And hopefully they will start giving Sorc built-in Major Savagery and Major Breach so our bar space issue can finally be fixed.

Pelanora · July 11

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Pelanora wrote: »

DK gets wings. Warden gets wings. Sorcs need wings.

Sure, Sorc can have the old Ball Lightning back, the one with infinite projectile absorption, and DK gets its original wings that had infinite reflection and could ping pong meteors back and forth. When everything is op, nothing is!

Lol I was just referring to the aesthetic not the skill. I just want wings. Using that lovely whispy effect that's new in the mirromoors to give illusory transparent silvery wings. 😍 Fired when some relevant skill is released that's not too battery looking.

Lucifer9th · July 12

They can add a cap of maximum magicka for ward, a value like 45k max mag for exemple, it will be balanced and avoid the class to just use one build and stack magicka until absurd value

And do not forget the size of shield can now be reduced by common debuff in pvp (18% in total)
they exist too a skill (not hardly used) which can delete a shield

TechMaybeHic · July 12

A skill to remove it also then needs another global to damage. You would again, just get in a resource race off reapply, remove again. Not sure what the scribing skill for that cost but they're usually pretty high.

Jsmalls · July 12

StaticWave wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

I feel like if you try and provide supporting evidence from duels people say oh the data from 1v1s means nothing because the game isn't centered around 1v1. And if you try and provide supporting evidence from OW gameplay people will say something like there are too many variables to accurately arrive to any conclusion

Can we all just be honest. Magsorc is busted right now. I don't know how that is even arguable. Whether it be for 1v1s or open world. Making an argument such as, " oh ward is only busted on particular setups", doesn't make sense. It is like trying to say yeah magsorc is fair and balanced if they use Juliano's rage and shackle breaker. No one cares about that.

Current magsorc has to press 1 skill for defense and that's all. Its 15k shield with and 8k heal attached to it.

I can put on Pariah + Rallying Cry and a full proc magDK will still beat the crap out of me. If I swap to a magsorc in Crafty/Wretched, I can literally face tank him no problem. It’s absurd how anybody can argue about this.

@StaticWave

To be fair you're taking a situation where Ward will perform the best (Proc MagDK has a lot of DoTs) and where block casting heals performs the worst. And using it as a baseline comparison.

Take that Rally Cry + pariah setup against a Nightblade (or even a Sorc) which has high crit direct damage abilities and it'll perform a lot better.

Not to mention a Nightblade needs to catch the Sorc ONCE with their Ward down with an Incap and it can be over (I say can because there is absolutely time to CC break and block/Dodge the bow but the server doesn't always agree with your reaction time).

Also, a Wretched, crafty, and chudan setup is mediocre damage. I highly doubt your dying to that Sorc as a competitive dueler.

Jsmalls · July 12

Joy_Division wrote: »

No doubt some players are going to like playing a class that can, after battle spirit, consistently negate 16-17K damage within the press of a single button that has no cooldown, no cast time, or no other restrictions, which can also just *poof* away at the slightest threat while zapping away at enemies with its full arsenal at max range. That they like doing that does not automatically makes possessing that capability a meaningful competitive experience for players of other classes who can't even do one of those things.

@Joy_Division

Defensively, the same can be done by all players. If you block cast a heal you can negate let's average 10k for a heal plus the 60%+ damage mitigation (a lot of players use S&B or Frost staff in their setup). For the average "hard hitting" direct damage ability at roughly 8k crit damage. You're cutting that about in half to 3.2k and remain with a net ~7k health in that GCD. Take the 13k Ward + 4k heal that crit direct damage with is likely doing 9.2k (bastion passive +15% damage) and the Sorc is left with a 3.8k Ward and the 4k heal for 8k "health" remaining.

I'm not saying Ward is in a perfectly balance place because it isn't.

But there are cons to Ward as well and it's not fair to compare Ward directly against health.

It can't mitigate by blocking, it's temporary, and it scales on the least efficient damage stat, which requires 2 additional bar slots to be "viable".

xylena_lazarow · July 12

Jsmalls wrote: »

Not to mention a Nightblade needs to catch the Sorc ONCE with their Ward down with an Incap and it can be over (I say can because there is absolutely time to CC break and block/Dodge the bow but the server doesn't always agree with your reaction time).

Anyone can die to anyone in lag. You're otherwise not going to global a decent Sorc who's paying attention. The Sorc just has to react and click one button, and your whole burst combo is bricked. But therein lies the disconnect, no matter how insane Ward is, you still need to react and click a button, which is apparently beyond a lot of players.

Jsmalls · July 12

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

Not to mention a Nightblade needs to catch the Sorc ONCE with their Ward down with an Incap and it can be over (I say can because there is absolutely time to CC break and block/Dodge the bow but the server doesn't always agree with your reaction time).

Anyone can die to anyone in lag. You're otherwise not going to global a decent Sorc who's paying attention. The Sorc just has to react and click one button, and your whole burst combo is bricked. But therein lies the disconnect, no matter how insane Ward is, you still need to react and click a button, which is apparently beyond a lot of players.

@xylena_lazarow

My point wasn't the "lag" more so without Ward up you're a Glass cannon (as you should be). You're running 5 light armor and all your sets are "offensive" to buff your Magicka values and recovery.

You get caught with Ward down in a CC and you're likely dead Open World.

This compares to other classes "tankier" passive defenses whether that built into the class or the way they choose to play that complements the class.

At the end of the day I'd much rather have Active defenses be Overtuned (blocking, rolling, short HoTs, Temporary Wards) than passive defenses (undeath, resistances, crit resist, minor/major buffs, unnamed damage mitigation added with scribing.......).

It makes for more fun gameplay in my opinion.

And I'm still putting down Sorcs left and right. Of course this may be a Bias because I'm a ranged mobile nuke. But I haven't met a Sorc yet that can tank a well executed Overload, Crushing weapon, curse, frag, dawnbreaker setup.

xylena_lazarow · July 12

Jsmalls wrote: »

At the end of the day I'd much rather have Active defenses be Overtuned (blocking, rolling, short HoTs, Temporary Wards) than passive defenses (undeath, resistances, crit resist, minor/major buffs, unnamed damage mitigation added with scribing.......) It makes for more fun gameplay in my opinion.

And I'm still putting down Sorcs left and right. Of course this may be a Bias because I'm a ranged mobile nuke. But I haven't met a Sorc yet that can tank a well executed Overload, Crushing weapon, curse, frag, dawnbreaker setup.

This I'll agree with, but it's not like active skills can't get broken. Infinite rolling, permablocking, and now Ward doing double duty. It creates an obscenely huge divide between players with the skill to use the overpowered buttons and overpowered minmax, and those that don't. That's exactly what we see with Ward and the quality of Sorcs.

Joy_Division · July 12

Jsmalls wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

No doubt some players are going to like playing a class that can, after battle spirit, consistently negate 16-17K damage within the press of a single button that has no cooldown, no cast time, or no other restrictions, which can also just *poof* away at the slightest threat while zapping away at enemies with its full arsenal at max range. That they like doing that does not automatically makes possessing that capability a meaningful competitive experience for players of other classes who can't even do one of those things.

@Joy_Division

Defensively, the same can be done by all players. If you block cast a heal you can negate let's average 10k for a heal plus the 60%+ damage mitigation (a lot of players use S&B or Frost staff in their setup). For the average "hard hitting" direct damage ability at roughly 8k crit damage. You're cutting that about in half to 3.2k and remain with a net ~7k health in that GCD. Take the 13k Ward + 4k heal that crit direct damage with is likely doing 9.2k (bastion passive +15% damage) and the Sorc is left with a 3.8k Ward and the 4k heal for 8k "health" remaining.

I'm not saying Ward is in a perfectly balance place because it isn't.

But there are cons to Ward as well and it's not fair to compare Ward directly against health.

It can't mitigate by blocking, it's temporary, and it scales on the least efficient damage stat, which requires 2 additional bar slots to be "viable".

I've been playing this game for 10 years, I've played all classes, and I've played all the ways (some decently and others poorly). The second highest playtime I have on PvP is sorcerer and third place is not even close. I actually do remember in 2014 when the class sucked so hard, we'd all drop our "kill 20 sorcerer" quests because only die-hards, masochists, and designated negaters. I am well aware of the history of the class and how what the class could and can and cannot do when comparing and contrasting with the other classes.

My whole point is that the sorcerer could do all of those things. And it is indeed quite fun. I do not need to be told other classes can get similar results by block-casting (even though the sorcerer doesn't have to). Yes, I know that. It's about the total package.

Nightblades and sorcerers have taken for granted the ZOS formula that all DPS and healing and tanking need to be standardized such that they do these functions as well as everyone else, despite them also have tools in their kit that also allow mobility, escape options, or easily accessible burst damage. It is patently ridiculous. I've been playing RPG fantasy games since AD&D, and most other systems go out of their way to try and prevent the accumulation of different fantasy elements into one PC because it breaks the competitive aspect of the game.

ZoS is what it is, I know they are not going to change their formula nor do I think they even can as the game and player expectation are what they are at this point. That's fine, we've all been dealing with it for years. It's nothing new. And because my 2nd most played class is sorcerer, I am able to partake in the ZOS formula and the past two patches for my own personal enjoyment of the game. But I am very well aware there are many things my sorcerer can do that my templar can't, and few things that my templar can do that my sorcerer can't. One is very enjoyable to play, the other an exercise in limitations and frustrations.

I get it, you're on these forums because, unlike me, you really only play one class, so when the ZOS nerf sledgehammer comes down, your enjoyment of the game goes into the toilet. If ZOS were to ask me for my opinion, and to be clear they have never listened to me, I would tell them to stop trying to standardized everything (i.e., curse is fine and it's fine it does something different and has been fine for years), I'm fine with Ward having high numbers and think just making the heal a HoT would probably work out, and that a AAA game with such a large playerbase deserves better than a penurious approach to combat balance. Get some more minds and manpower. If the last update to templar wasn't over a year ago (and with nothing coming for at least another 6 months), then these sorts of wide gaps in class tiers would not nearly be so annoying and bothersome to the unlucky people who's main class seems to perpetually on the ever expanding "to do" list.

StaticWave · July 13

Joy_Division wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

No doubt some players are going to like playing a class that can, after battle spirit, consistently negate 16-17K damage within the press of a single button that has no cooldown, no cast time, or no other restrictions, which can also just *poof* away at the slightest threat while zapping away at enemies with its full arsenal at max range. That they like doing that does not automatically makes possessing that capability a meaningful competitive experience for players of other classes who can't even do one of those things.

@Joy_Division

Defensively, the same can be done by all players. If you block cast a heal you can negate let's average 10k for a heal plus the 60%+ damage mitigation (a lot of players use S&B or Frost staff in their setup). For the average "hard hitting" direct damage ability at roughly 8k crit damage. You're cutting that about in half to 3.2k and remain with a net ~7k health in that GCD. Take the 13k Ward + 4k heal that crit direct damage with is likely doing 9.2k (bastion passive +15% damage) and the Sorc is left with a 3.8k Ward and the 4k heal for 8k "health" remaining.

I'm not saying Ward is in a perfectly balance place because it isn't.

But there are cons to Ward as well and it's not fair to compare Ward directly against health.

It can't mitigate by blocking, it's temporary, and it scales on the least efficient damage stat, which requires 2 additional bar slots to be "viable".

I've been playing this game for 10 years, I've played all classes, and I've played all the ways (some decently and others poorly). The second highest playtime I have on PvP is sorcerer and third place is not even close. I actually do remember in 2014 when the class sucked so hard, we'd all drop our "kill 20 sorcerer" quests because only die-hards, masochists, and designated negaters. I am well aware of the history of the class and how what the class could and can and cannot do when comparing and contrasting with the other classes.

My whole point is that the sorcerer could do all of those things. And it is indeed quite fun. I do not need to be told other classes can get similar results by block-casting (even though the sorcerer doesn't have to). Yes, I know that. It's about the total package.

Nightblades and sorcerers have taken for granted the ZOS formula that all DPS and healing and tanking need to be standardized such that they do these functions as well as everyone else, despite them also have tools in their kit that also allow mobility, escape options, or easily accessible burst damage. It is patently ridiculous. I've been playing RPG fantasy games since AD&D, and most other systems go out of their way to try and prevent the accumulation of different fantasy elements into one PC because it breaks the competitive aspect of the game.

ZoS is what it is, I know they are not going to change their formula nor do I think they even can as the game and player expectation are what they are at this point. That's fine, we've all been dealing with it for years. It's nothing new. And because my 2nd most played class is sorcerer, I am able to partake in the ZOS formula and the past two patches for my own personal enjoyment of the game. But I am very well aware there are many things my sorcerer can do that my templar can't, and few things that my templar can do that my sorcerer can't. One is very enjoyable to play, the other an exercise in limitations and frustrations.

I get it, you're on these forums because, unlike me, you really only play one class, so when the ZOS nerf sledgehammer comes down, your enjoyment of the game goes into the toilet. If ZOS were to ask me for my opinion, and to be clear they have never listened to me, I would tell them to stop trying to standardized everything (i.e., curse is fine and it's fine it does something different and has been fine for years), I'm fine with Ward having high numbers and think just making the heal a HoT would probably work out, and that a AAA game with such a large playerbase deserves better than a penurious approach to combat balance. Get some more minds and manpower. If the last update to templar wasn't over a year ago (and with nothing coming for at least another 6 months), then these sorts of wide gaps in class tiers would not nearly be so annoying and bothersome to the unlucky people who's main class seems to perpetually on the ever expanding "to do" list.

He could experience what you described by simply fighting magsorc on another class. He already said he won't do that, so I don't think both of you can get your points across if there's no common ground. That goes for everyone who only mains magsorc in this thread. Until you experience what it feels like to fight a Ward spamming magsorc as a different class, it's hard to have a constructive discussion.

Turtle_Bot · July 13

Joy_Division wrote: »

If ZOS were to ask me for my opinion, and to be clear they have never listened to me, I would tell them to stop trying to standardized everything (i.e., curse is fine and it's fine it does something different and has been fine for years), I'm fine with Ward having high numbers and think just making the heal a HoT would probably work out, and that a AAA game with such a large playerbase deserves better than a penurious approach to combat balance. Get some more minds and manpower.

Agreed that since ZOS is determined that all classes can do everything, that making it a HoT instead of a burst heal would probably be the best (or at least easiest) solution to balancing ward, but it would be cool to see the classes get their uniqueness back.

Too bad a proper (needed) nerf to generic movement speed will never happen in this game, despite how much it will help with all the desync issues currently plaguing cyro and that it would have allowed sorc to not need current ward. People already complain about cyro being too big and taking forever to go anywhere on the map, imagine the complaints if they also had their speed nerfed by the required ~30% back to what it used to be.

Bushido2513 · July 13

StaticWave wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

No doubt some players are going to like playing a class that can, after battle spirit, consistently negate 16-17K damage within the press of a single button that has no cooldown, no cast time, or no other restrictions, which can also just *poof* away at the slightest threat while zapping away at enemies with its full arsenal at max range. That they like doing that does not automatically makes possessing that capability a meaningful competitive experience for players of other classes who can't even do one of those things.

@Joy_Division

Defensively, the same can be done by all players. If you block cast a heal you can negate let's average 10k for a heal plus the 60%+ damage mitigation (a lot of players use S&B or Frost staff in their setup). For the average "hard hitting" direct damage ability at roughly 8k crit damage. You're cutting that about in half to 3.2k and remain with a net ~7k health in that GCD. Take the 13k Ward + 4k heal that crit direct damage with is likely doing 9.2k (bastion passive +15% damage) and the Sorc is left with a 3.8k Ward and the 4k heal for 8k "health" remaining.

I'm not saying Ward is in a perfectly balance place because it isn't.

But there are cons to Ward as well and it's not fair to compare Ward directly against health.

It can't mitigate by blocking, it's temporary, and it scales on the least efficient damage stat, which requires 2 additional bar slots to be "viable".

I've been playing this game for 10 years, I've played all classes, and I've played all the ways (some decently and others poorly). The second highest playtime I have on PvP is sorcerer and third place is not even close. I actually do remember in 2014 when the class sucked so hard, we'd all drop our "kill 20 sorcerer" quests because only die-hards, masochists, and designated negaters. I am well aware of the history of the class and how what the class could and can and cannot do when comparing and contrasting with the other classes.

My whole point is that the sorcerer could do all of those things. And it is indeed quite fun. I do not need to be told other classes can get similar results by block-casting (even though the sorcerer doesn't have to). Yes, I know that. It's about the total package.

Nightblades and sorcerers have taken for granted the ZOS formula that all DPS and healing and tanking need to be standardized such that they do these functions as well as everyone else, despite them also have tools in their kit that also allow mobility, escape options, or easily accessible burst damage. It is patently ridiculous. I've been playing RPG fantasy games since AD&D, and most other systems go out of their way to try and prevent the accumulation of different fantasy elements into one PC because it breaks the competitive aspect of the game.

ZoS is what it is, I know they are not going to change their formula nor do I think they even can as the game and player expectation are what they are at this point. That's fine, we've all been dealing with it for years. It's nothing new. And because my 2nd most played class is sorcerer, I am able to partake in the ZOS formula and the past two patches for my own personal enjoyment of the game. But I am very well aware there are many things my sorcerer can do that my templar can't, and few things that my templar can do that my sorcerer can't. One is very enjoyable to play, the other an exercise in limitations and frustrations.

I get it, you're on these forums because, unlike me, you really only play one class, so when the ZOS nerf sledgehammer comes down, your enjoyment of the game goes into the toilet. If ZOS were to ask me for my opinion, and to be clear they have never listened to me, I would tell them to stop trying to standardized everything (i.e., curse is fine and it's fine it does something different and has been fine for years), I'm fine with Ward having high numbers and think just making the heal a HoT would probably work out, and that a AAA game with such a large playerbase deserves better than a penurious approach to combat balance. Get some more minds and manpower. If the last update to templar wasn't over a year ago (and with nothing coming for at least another 6 months), then these sorts of wide gaps in class tiers would not nearly be so annoying and bothersome to the unlucky people who's main class seems to perpetually on the ever expanding "to do" list.

He could experience what you described by simply fighting magsorc on another class. He already said he won't do that, so I don't think both of you can get your points across if there's no common ground. That goes for everyone who only mains magsorc in this thread. Until you experience what it feels like to fight a Ward spamming magsorc as a different class, it's hard to have a constructive discussion.

I think this logic doesn't track. Think about it, you're basically describing an opponent that has good damage and who has a skill or mechanic that allows the fight to likely be reset if they don't like how it's going. We've all likely faced that whether the other class was a sorc or not and whether we were a sorc or not.

As a sorc I've faced procanist that could do damage to me but who didn't take much damage. This went on for quite some time and to be honest I just adapted and moved on. That's just a very blatant example but what about a healthy spamming NB lol, that honestly had me wanting to complain a bit but I moved in and adapted to that too.

I'm not saying that everyone can adapt or should adapt but that it's possible for at least me as a player to adapt to these things and still enjoy the game. Though yes I did comment in another thread that NB needs a balance pass but that was also before the ward change so I'd have to kind of go back and think about it.

Recently I will say I was on my sorc and realized that I play with sometimes a lower mag pool than what's being talked about here and feel that when done that way I'm not overpowering and feel like I'm getting an honest fight.

I say that to say that I could see maybe putting a limit on the heal so that it can't be abused. I wouldn't know an exact number for that but I'm just saying I could see it

StaticWave · July 13

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

No doubt some players are going to like playing a class that can, after battle spirit, consistently negate 16-17K damage within the press of a single button that has no cooldown, no cast time, or no other restrictions, which can also just *poof* away at the slightest threat while zapping away at enemies with its full arsenal at max range. That they like doing that does not automatically makes possessing that capability a meaningful competitive experience for players of other classes who can't even do one of those things.

@Joy_Division

Defensively, the same can be done by all players. If you block cast a heal you can negate let's average 10k for a heal plus the 60%+ damage mitigation (a lot of players use S&B or Frost staff in their setup). For the average "hard hitting" direct damage ability at roughly 8k crit damage. You're cutting that about in half to 3.2k and remain with a net ~7k health in that GCD. Take the 13k Ward + 4k heal that crit direct damage with is likely doing 9.2k (bastion passive +15% damage) and the Sorc is left with a 3.8k Ward and the 4k heal for 8k "health" remaining.

I'm not saying Ward is in a perfectly balance place because it isn't.

But there are cons to Ward as well and it's not fair to compare Ward directly against health.

It can't mitigate by blocking, it's temporary, and it scales on the least efficient damage stat, which requires 2 additional bar slots to be "viable".

I've been playing this game for 10 years, I've played all classes, and I've played all the ways (some decently and others poorly). The second highest playtime I have on PvP is sorcerer and third place is not even close. I actually do remember in 2014 when the class sucked so hard, we'd all drop our "kill 20 sorcerer" quests because only die-hards, masochists, and designated negaters. I am well aware of the history of the class and how what the class could and can and cannot do when comparing and contrasting with the other classes.

My whole point is that the sorcerer could do all of those things. And it is indeed quite fun. I do not need to be told other classes can get similar results by block-casting (even though the sorcerer doesn't have to). Yes, I know that. It's about the total package.

Nightblades and sorcerers have taken for granted the ZOS formula that all DPS and healing and tanking need to be standardized such that they do these functions as well as everyone else, despite them also have tools in their kit that also allow mobility, escape options, or easily accessible burst damage. It is patently ridiculous. I've been playing RPG fantasy games since AD&D, and most other systems go out of their way to try and prevent the accumulation of different fantasy elements into one PC because it breaks the competitive aspect of the game.

ZoS is what it is, I know they are not going to change their formula nor do I think they even can as the game and player expectation are what they are at this point. That's fine, we've all been dealing with it for years. It's nothing new. And because my 2nd most played class is sorcerer, I am able to partake in the ZOS formula and the past two patches for my own personal enjoyment of the game. But I am very well aware there are many things my sorcerer can do that my templar can't, and few things that my templar can do that my sorcerer can't. One is very enjoyable to play, the other an exercise in limitations and frustrations.

I get it, you're on these forums because, unlike me, you really only play one class, so when the ZOS nerf sledgehammer comes down, your enjoyment of the game goes into the toilet. If ZOS were to ask me for my opinion, and to be clear they have never listened to me, I would tell them to stop trying to standardized everything (i.e., curse is fine and it's fine it does something different and has been fine for years), I'm fine with Ward having high numbers and think just making the heal a HoT would probably work out, and that a AAA game with such a large playerbase deserves better than a penurious approach to combat balance. Get some more minds and manpower. If the last update to templar wasn't over a year ago (and with nothing coming for at least another 6 months), then these sorts of wide gaps in class tiers would not nearly be so annoying and bothersome to the unlucky people who's main class seems to perpetually on the ever expanding "to do" list.

He could experience what you described by simply fighting magsorc on another class. He already said he won't do that, so I don't think both of you can get your points across if there's no common ground. That goes for everyone who only mains magsorc in this thread. Until you experience what it feels like to fight a Ward spamming magsorc as a different class, it's hard to have a constructive discussion.

I think this logic doesn't track. Think about it, you're basically describing an opponent that has good damage and who has a skill or mechanic that allows the fight to likely be reset if they don't like how it's going. We've all likely faced that whether the other class was a sorc or not and whether we were a sorc or not.

As a sorc I've faced procanist that could do damage to me but who didn't take much damage. This went on for quite some time and to be honest I just adapted and moved on. That's just a very blatant example but what about a healthy spamming NB lol, that honestly had me wanting to complain a bit but I moved in and adapted to that too.

I'm not saying that everyone can adapt or should adapt but that it's possible for at least me as a player to adapt to these things and still enjoy the game. Though yes I did comment in another thread that NB needs a balance pass but that was also before the ward change so I'd have to kind of go back and think about it.

Recently I will say I was on my sorc and realized that I play with sometimes a lower mag pool than what's being talked about here and feel that when done that way I'm not overpowering and feel like I'm getting an honest fight.

I say that to say that I could see maybe putting a limit on the heal so that it can't be abused. I wouldn't know an exact number for that but I'm just saying I could see it

Well I’m telling you from my experience a magsorc is more obnoxious. Of course if you want to win in this game you have to adapt. That’s always the case.

But why should that be a factor in this discussion? Even after adapting it is still annoying to fight a magsorc compared to a NB or a DK. Adapting doesn’t make magsorc any less annoying. It just means I can survive their damage and have a better shot at killing them.

To be frank, I would rather deal with a DK or a NB than a magsorc. At least I know a NB or DK can be countered with Streak if they block cast their heal. Even Cloak can be countered with Streak/Ele Sus/Curse. A Sorc just Streaks away and resets the fight when it gets low. You know what’s more obnoxious? If you manage to make them run away, they can always poke you from max range and basically be as annoying as possible and there’s nothing you can do to them. Sure other classes can stack full speed but they aren’t poking you from max range are they?

Turtle_Bot · July 13

StaticWave wrote: »

To be frank, I would rather deal with a DK or a NB than a magsorc. At least I know a NB or DK can be countered with Streak if they block cast their heal. Even Cloak can be countered with Streak/Ele Sus/Curse. A Sorc just Streaks away and resets the fight when it gets low. You know what’s more obnoxious? If you manage to make them run away, they can always poke you from max range and basically be as annoying as possible and there’s nothing you can do to them. Sure other classes can stack full speed but they aren’t poling you from max range are they?

Ele sus is going to no longer break stealth from next patch, same with entropy

NBs are about to get a lot more obnoxious to go against.

Oh and just for fun, ZOS is also making NB defense much easier to maintain and more synergistic with the class passives by moving skills around.

StaticWave · July 13

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

To be frank, I would rather deal with a DK or a NB than a magsorc. At least I know a NB or DK can be countered with Streak if they block cast their heal. Even Cloak can be countered with Streak/Ele Sus/Curse. A Sorc just Streaks away and resets the fight when it gets low. You know what’s more obnoxious? If you manage to make them run away, they can always poke you from max range and basically be as annoying as possible and there’s nothing you can do to them. Sure other classes can stack full speed but they aren’t poling you from max range are they?

Ele sus is going to no longer break stealth from next patch, same with entropy

NBs are about to get a lot more obnoxious to go against.

Oh and just for fun, ZOS is also making NB defense much easier to maintain and more synergistic with the class passives by moving skills around.

That is fine too. I keep a stack of detect pots just for them. So far I have had little issues dealing with NB in Cyrodiil. Luckily most of them are gankers and are rather squishy. On rare occasions I had to deal with brawler NB zerglings but they are rare.

Magsorcs encounters are weird for me. They’re just tanky enough to not be one-shotted/two-shotted, but can be annoying with Curse and Mages Wrath/Streak. I wouldn’t say they are extremely tough to fight against, but more like annoying. Luckily the top tier magsorcs leave me alone so I rarely have to deal with them. That would be bad lol.

xylena_lazarow · July 13

StaticWave wrote: »

Magsorcs encounters are weird for me. They’re just tanky enough to not be one-shotted/two-shotted, but can be annoying with Curse and Mages Wrath/Streak. I wouldn’t say they are extremely tough to fight against, but more like annoying. Luckily the top tier magsorcs leave me alone so I rarely have to deal with them. That would be bad lol.

Sorc is also an extremely good attrition class now, another thing that absolutely should not be. The teleporting battlecruiser with massive immediate power should absolutely not be playing the long resource attrition game like a DK brawler. Sure doesn't help that you need to global the damn Sorc to kill them before they click the funny button, no decent Sorc paying attention is gonna let that, not to mention the resources you burn just getting close enough to hit them.

Jsmalls wrote: »

And I'm still putting down Sorcs left and right. Of course this may be a Bias because I'm a ranged mobile nuke. But I haven't met a Sorc yet that can tank a well executed Overload, Crushing weapon, curse, frag, dawnbreaker setup.

And here lies another problem. What's the best counter to a teleporting battlecruiser Sorc? Your own teleporting battlecruiser Sorc. Yeah NB can burst them but NB needs to get close, and you need to be full gank to global a decent Sorc.

Bushido2513 · July 13

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

No doubt some players are going to like playing a class that can, after battle spirit, consistently negate 16-17K damage within the press of a single button that has no cooldown, no cast time, or no other restrictions, which can also just *poof* away at the slightest threat while zapping away at enemies with its full arsenal at max range. That they like doing that does not automatically makes possessing that capability a meaningful competitive experience for players of other classes who can't even do one of those things.

@Joy_Division

Defensively, the same can be done by all players. If you block cast a heal you can negate let's average 10k for a heal plus the 60%+ damage mitigation (a lot of players use S&B or Frost staff in their setup). For the average "hard hitting" direct damage ability at roughly 8k crit damage. You're cutting that about in half to 3.2k and remain with a net ~7k health in that GCD. Take the 13k Ward + 4k heal that crit direct damage with is likely doing 9.2k (bastion passive +15% damage) and the Sorc is left with a 3.8k Ward and the 4k heal for 8k "health" remaining.

I'm not saying Ward is in a perfectly balance place because it isn't.

But there are cons to Ward as well and it's not fair to compare Ward directly against health.

It can't mitigate by blocking, it's temporary, and it scales on the least efficient damage stat, which requires 2 additional bar slots to be "viable".

I've been playing this game for 10 years, I've played all classes, and I've played all the ways (some decently and others poorly). The second highest playtime I have on PvP is sorcerer and third place is not even close. I actually do remember in 2014 when the class sucked so hard, we'd all drop our "kill 20 sorcerer" quests because only die-hards, masochists, and designated negaters. I am well aware of the history of the class and how what the class could and can and cannot do when comparing and contrasting with the other classes.

My whole point is that the sorcerer could do all of those things. And it is indeed quite fun. I do not need to be told other classes can get similar results by block-casting (even though the sorcerer doesn't have to). Yes, I know that. It's about the total package.

Nightblades and sorcerers have taken for granted the ZOS formula that all DPS and healing and tanking need to be standardized such that they do these functions as well as everyone else, despite them also have tools in their kit that also allow mobility, escape options, or easily accessible burst damage. It is patently ridiculous. I've been playing RPG fantasy games since AD&D, and most other systems go out of their way to try and prevent the accumulation of different fantasy elements into one PC because it breaks the competitive aspect of the game.

ZoS is what it is, I know they are not going to change their formula nor do I think they even can as the game and player expectation are what they are at this point. That's fine, we've all been dealing with it for years. It's nothing new. And because my 2nd most played class is sorcerer, I am able to partake in the ZOS formula and the past two patches for my own personal enjoyment of the game. But I am very well aware there are many things my sorcerer can do that my templar can't, and few things that my templar can do that my sorcerer can't. One is very enjoyable to play, the other an exercise in limitations and frustrations.

I get it, you're on these forums because, unlike me, you really only play one class, so when the ZOS nerf sledgehammer comes down, your enjoyment of the game goes into the toilet. If ZOS were to ask me for my opinion, and to be clear they have never listened to me, I would tell them to stop trying to standardized everything (i.e., curse is fine and it's fine it does something different and has been fine for years), I'm fine with Ward having high numbers and think just making the heal a HoT would probably work out, and that a AAA game with such a large playerbase deserves better than a penurious approach to combat balance. Get some more minds and manpower. If the last update to templar wasn't over a year ago (and with nothing coming for at least another 6 months), then these sorts of wide gaps in class tiers would not nearly be so annoying and bothersome to the unlucky people who's main class seems to perpetually on the ever expanding "to do" list.

He could experience what you described by simply fighting magsorc on another class. He already said he won't do that, so I don't think both of you can get your points across if there's no common ground. That goes for everyone who only mains magsorc in this thread. Until you experience what it feels like to fight a Ward spamming magsorc as a different class, it's hard to have a constructive discussion.

I think this logic doesn't track. Think about it, you're basically describing an opponent that has good damage and who has a skill or mechanic that allows the fight to likely be reset if they don't like how it's going. We've all likely faced that whether the other class was a sorc or not and whether we were a sorc or not.

As a sorc I've faced procanist that could do damage to me but who didn't take much damage. This went on for quite some time and to be honest I just adapted and moved on. That's just a very blatant example but what about a healthy spamming NB lol, that honestly had me wanting to complain a bit but I moved in and adapted to that too.

I'm not saying that everyone can adapt or should adapt but that it's possible for at least me as a player to adapt to these things and still enjoy the game. Though yes I did comment in another thread that NB needs a balance pass but that was also before the ward change so I'd have to kind of go back and think about it.

Recently I will say I was on my sorc and realized that I play with sometimes a lower mag pool than what's being talked about here and feel that when done that way I'm not overpowering and feel like I'm getting an honest fight.

I say that to say that I could see maybe putting a limit on the heal so that it can't be abused. I wouldn't know an exact number for that but I'm just saying I could see it

Well I’m telling you from my experience a magsorc is more obnoxious. Of course if you want to win in this game you have to adapt. That’s always the case.

But why should that be a factor in this discussion? Even after adapting it is still annoying to fight a magsorc compared to a NB or a DK. Adapting doesn’t make magsorc any less annoying. It just means I can survive their damage and have a better shot at killing them.

To be frank, I would rather deal with a DK or a NB than a magsorc. At least I know a NB or DK can be countered with Streak if they block cast their heal. Even Cloak can be countered with Streak/Ele Sus/Curse. A Sorc just Streaks away and resets the fight when it gets low. You know what’s more obnoxious? If you manage to make them run away, they can always poke you from max range and basically be as annoying as possible and there’s nothing you can do to them. Sure other classes can stack full speed but they aren’t poking you from max range are they?

I was just trying to say that it isn't required to fight a magsorc with another class to experience being annoyed by a fight being reset over and over at your enemy's choosing. So I don't think it's fair to say if you haven't been annoyed by exactly this scenario then you can't understand it.

xylena_lazarow · July 13

Bushido2513 wrote: »

I was just trying to say that it isn't required to fight a magsorc with another class to experience being annoyed by a fight being reset over and over at your enemy's choosing.

So you do understand why people hate fighting against MagSorcs (and NBs) right now?

Pelanora · July 13

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

No doubt some players are going to like playing a class that can, after battle spirit, consistently negate 16-17K damage within the press of a single button that has no cooldown, no cast time, or no other restrictions, which can also just *poof* away at the slightest threat while zapping away at enemies with its full arsenal at max range. That they like doing that does not automatically makes possessing that capability a meaningful competitive experience for players of other classes who can't even do one of those things.

@Joy_Division

Defensively, the same can be done by all players. If you block cast a heal you can negate let's average 10k for a heal plus the 60%+ damage mitigation (a lot of players use S&B or Frost staff in their setup). For the average "hard hitting" direct damage ability at roughly 8k crit damage. You're cutting that about in half to 3.2k and remain with a net ~7k health in that GCD. Take the 13k Ward + 4k heal that crit direct damage with is likely doing 9.2k (bastion passive +15% damage) and the Sorc is left with a 3.8k Ward and the 4k heal for 8k "health" remaining.

I'm not saying Ward is in a perfectly balance place because it isn't.

But there are cons to Ward as well and it's not fair to compare Ward directly against health.

It can't mitigate by blocking, it's temporary, and it scales on the least efficient damage stat, which requires 2 additional bar slots to be "viable".

I've been playing this game for 10 years, I've played all classes, and I've played all the ways (some decently and others poorly). The second highest playtime I have on PvP is sorcerer and third place is not even close. I actually do remember in 2014 when the class sucked so hard, we'd all drop our "kill 20 sorcerer" quests because only die-hards, masochists, and designated negaters. I am well aware of the history of the class and how what the class could and can and cannot do when comparing and contrasting with the other classes.

My whole point is that the sorcerer could do all of those things. And it is indeed quite fun. I do not need to be told other classes can get similar results by block-casting (even though the sorcerer doesn't have to). Yes, I know that. It's about the total package.

Nightblades and sorcerers have taken for granted the ZOS formula that all DPS and healing and tanking need to be standardized such that they do these functions as well as everyone else, despite them also have tools in their kit that also allow mobility, escape options, or easily accessible burst damage. It is patently ridiculous. I've been playing RPG fantasy games since AD&D, and most other systems go out of their way to try and prevent the accumulation of different fantasy elements into one PC because it breaks the competitive aspect of the game.

ZoS is what it is, I know they are not going to change their formula nor do I think they even can as the game and player expectation are what they are at this point. That's fine, we've all been dealing with it for years. It's nothing new. And because my 2nd most played class is sorcerer, I am able to partake in the ZOS formula and the past two patches for my own personal enjoyment of the game. But I am very well aware there are many things my sorcerer can do that my templar can't, and few things that my templar can do that my sorcerer can't. One is very enjoyable to play, the other an exercise in limitations and frustrations.

I get it, you're on these forums because, unlike me, you really only play one class, so when the ZOS nerf sledgehammer comes down, your enjoyment of the game goes into the toilet. If ZOS were to ask me for my opinion, and to be clear they have never listened to me, I would tell them to stop trying to standardized everything (i.e., curse is fine and it's fine it does something different and has been fine for years), I'm fine with Ward having high numbers and think just making the heal a HoT would probably work out, and that a AAA game with such a large playerbase deserves better than a penurious approach to combat balance. Get some more minds and manpower. If the last update to templar wasn't over a year ago (and with nothing coming for at least another 6 months), then these sorts of wide gaps in class tiers would not nearly be so annoying and bothersome to the unlucky people who's main class seems to perpetually on the ever expanding "to do" list.

He could experience what you described by simply fighting magsorc on another class. He already said he won't do that, so I don't think both of you can get your points across if there's no common ground. That goes for everyone who only mains magsorc in this thread. Until you experience what it feels like to fight a Ward spamming magsorc as a different class, it's hard to have a constructive discussion.

I think this logic doesn't track. Think about it, you're basically describing an opponent that has good damage and who has a skill or mechanic that allows the fight to likely be reset if they don't like how it's going. We've all likely faced that whether the other class was a sorc or not and whether we were a sorc or not.

As a sorc I've faced procanist that could do damage to me but who didn't take much damage. This went on for quite some time and to be honest I just adapted and moved on. That's just a very blatant example but what about a healthy spamming NB lol, that honestly had me wanting to complain a bit but I moved in and adapted to that too.

I'm not saying that everyone can adapt or should adapt but that it's possible for at least me as a player to adapt to these things and still enjoy the game. Though yes I did comment in another thread that NB needs a balance pass but that was also before the ward change so I'd have to kind of go back and think about it.

Recently I will say I was on my sorc and realized that I play with sometimes a lower mag pool than what's being talked about here and feel that when done that way I'm not overpowering and feel like I'm getting an honest fight.

I say that to say that I could see maybe putting a limit on the heal so that it can't be abused. I wouldn't know an exact number for that but I'm just saying I could see it

Well I’m telling you from my experience a magsorc is more obnoxious. Of course if you want to win in this game you have to adapt. That’s always the case.

But why should that be a factor in this discussion? Even after adapting it is still annoying to fight a magsorc compared to a NB or a DK. Adapting doesn’t make magsorc any less annoying. It just means I can survive their damage and have a better shot at killing them.

To be frank, I would rather deal with a DK or a NB than a magsorc. At least I know a NB or DK can be countered with Streak if they block cast their heal. Even Cloak can be countered with Streak/Ele Sus/Curse. A Sorc just Streaks away and resets the fight when it gets low. You know what’s more obnoxious? If you manage to make them run away, they can always poke you from max range and basically be as annoying as possible and there’s nothing you can do to them. Sure other classes can stack full speed but they aren’t poking you from max range are they?

I think invisible players are way more annoying than this kind of play.

LukosCreyden · July 13

Glad to see the "nerf sorc" threads are alive and well after all these years.
Now without further interruption, lets all get back into cyrodiil on our DKs.

xylena_lazarow · July 13

LukosCreyden wrote: »

Glad to see the "nerf sorc" threads are alive and well after all these years.
Now without further interruption, lets all get back into cyrodiil on our DKs.

Have you been to Cyro lately? DKs are going extinct.

LukosCreyden · July 13

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

LukosCreyden wrote: »

Glad to see the "nerf sorc" threads are alive and well after all these years.
Now without further interruption, lets all get back into cyrodiil on our DKs.

Have you been to Cyro lately? DKs are going extinct.

I said what I said.