Hardened Ward... Where player based skill can go from C-tier to S+-tier

xylena_lazarow

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Yeah but it's chicken and egg that we'll never really know.

We do. The egg came first, laid by a bird that was chicken-like but not quite a modern chicken. ZOS also knows, they're professional game devs who are plenty capable of collecting data from forums and in-game.

Alchimiste1

Bushido2513 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

True I'm sure they take into account some things that are said on the forum but their actions would suggest that this has very minor sway on them. I stress the emphasis on very and minor

They 100% eventually address meta elements that get consistent complaints, see: Stinging Slashes (MDW)

Yeah but it's chicken and egg that we'll never really know. Did they address it due to the complaint and because of the complaint or did they see the complaint then check their own data or do they have an algorithm on their side that already points out any stat outliers?

Like if it were me I'd just run periodic stat analysis on back end data to look for outliers on death recaps, class population, and so many other things that I can't think of right now. The point is that it's actually not too hard to automate internal data analysis to look for outliers then report them so maybe zos does this as well. Again we'll never know but I'm just giving a real world example where player input wouldn't even be required to initiate an investigation and possible remediation. Maybe zos does something like this already?

I hope not. That be one of the worst ways to make balance changes

Bushido2513

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Yeah but it's chicken and egg that we'll never really know.

We do. The egg came first, laid by a bird that was chicken-like but not quite a modern chicken. ZOS also knows, they're professional game devs who are plenty capable of collecting data from forums and in-game.

The question was do they address complaints or do they just do what they want to and sometimes that just happens to address complaints.

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

But you do mind. You keep telling everyone the change doesn’t affect you in anyway, but you say things like “other classes have a strong burst heal so why should Sorc not get one”, or “nerf the other class healings first then we can talk” which are subtle indicators that you do want the change to stay.

Yeah just because it doesn't affect me doesn't mean I can't appreciate that someone else might be happy about it. I also see that people don't like it. This is the kind of thing that is more so viewable with the right data and not just from people's opinions.

StaticWave wrote: »

I’m a stamsorc main and I played without a true burst heal for 5 years. Even when I asked for a burst heal, I asked for it to be less potent compared to other burst heals because the class is just too strong. I asked for Dark Deal to be instant cast with the same non scaling tooltip at a reduced resource return, NOT a 9k tooltip burst heal underneath a 15k Ward in PvP.

This is the kind of thing we get from spreadsheet balancing. Is it artful or maybe even appropriate, I think only ZOS has accurate info on that. And no I'm not saying this negates players having an opinion. Opinions are fine as long as they are stated as such and not proof of something that can't be proved by someone other than ZOS.

StaticWave wrote: »

Posts like yours don’t help at all, to be frank. They sound indifferent with a slight hint of favoring one side, and anytime someone proposes a solid piece of counter argument you can always fall back to “ZOS has the data and decides”. It’s almost impossible to discuss with you if I’m being honest.

I mean if you say 2 + 2 = 5 then yes I'm going to fall back on math and say it shows to equal 4. That's not me trying to say anything personal, it just is what it is. If I know your data set is incomplete there's no reason for me to act like it isn't or that getting close enough is actually close enough. Again I've never said don't state your opinion on the matter just don't act like you've proved anything solidly when you don't have the data to back that up. This isn't in regards to your 1v1 testing because the data does back that up. Beyond that anyone without back end data is just giving their opinion.

StaticWave wrote: »

And quite frankly, I see you leaning more towards the ppl favoring Ward than actually being neutral. Clearly you disregard 1v1s as a metric of balance, when 1v1s is as accurate as you can get to combat balance in this game. Then you use large scale PvP as a metric of balance, but when magsorc is undoubtedly considered by many ppl to be overperforming in Cyrodiil, an environment where large scale battles occur, you still disregard it and instead ask for a bunch of unobtainable data. Why don’t you do the testing yourself then?

I am only saying that the ward change hasn't really done much for me one way or another. So if someone likes it then cool for them and if someone doesn't like it I get that too. Most of the people in this and other threads are saying they don't like it so my comments are more towards that conversation since I don't quite get it being that it's not affecting me. So if people are saying hey it sucks more often then yes my comments are going to be more towards hey I don't see it as sucking. Doesn't mean I like it, just means I don't quite get the problem you're having with it and obviously not everyone agrees that there actually is a problem.

1v1s are data accurate but the balance is already skewed as shown when you have a tournament how rules have to be used to try to achieve some level of balance. So 1v1s just aren't balanced in this game period. So you say the words undoubtedly and many.

So here's a question, if more people are playing sorc and enjoying ward than people that don't like it does that mean ward is ok or are they just ward abusers? Because this is the problem with saying many people say xyz. It doesn't prove or show anything, it's just a rough estimate of what may or may not be accurate. There's only one way to be accurate and that's all I'm saying not don't express your opinion.

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Here's something else to take a look at too. I was fighting that proc plar on magsorc and he said it was aids to fight a magsorc that kites all the time:

[snip]

So I dropped Streak cause I wanted to see if I could face tank him:



Tanked him for 7 minutes no problem lol

I believe we have all agreed that it's obviously this result in a 1v1. The game also isn't balanced for 1v1 so this is fairly expected.

Whats part of it is balanced if not 1v1. 1v1s happen constantly even in Cyrodiil and BGs. And it's worse than just being a little better. If you come across an equal skilled sorc, it's not just a bit stronger, it's pointless. At least in duels, it's generally frowned on to LOS where the 1v1 in the wild, pretty much anything goes.

Where is it balanced if not 1v1? In large fights where they already were wanted for negates and all that same survivability still stands out over other classes?

Nearly anywhere they go in PvP, if a sorc struggles more than any other class would; they are pretty bad

Right, he thinks everyone is just going to follow as a team in BGs and that ppl aren’t going to split up to take objectives or get split up. He thinks every fight in Cyrodiil is this massive 60v60 zerg and not small fights that could occur and result in small 1v1s lol. For a solo PvPer like he claimed I thought it was obvious, unless he’s either lying about it or playing on a platform where the population is so small there are hardly any fights outside of zergs.

Either way, that isn’t grounds for balancing. The game has never been balanced around large scale fights. There are countless threads complaining about the same issue until this day. The game is balanced around raising the floor, and when the floor gets raised too much, we jump in to give feedback.

So as a solo player I really can speak to this one. I've had wayyyyyyyyyyyyyy more xv1s then I've had fights I can finish as a 1v1. I'm all about the 1v1 that I can stumble upon and finish out, it's actually a great thing to find. But in IC and open world you will more likely run up on a minimum 2 players or if one is solo a nb or two waiting to take advantage.

Again I'm not saying 1v1s don't happen, they do, all the time actually but more often if you're open world it will become an xv1.

Oh and to be clear I don't really count something where 1 person is standing around and you just nuke them in a sec. Yes that's a 1v1 but for me I more so tend to count 1v1s where the opponent is good enough to hold their own and so those tend to take more time and when they do that's when your chances of it turning into an xv1 go up fairly quickly.


I mean even if we just cater by occurrence count are people in here really trying to say that players in a given play session in general will run into more 1v1s then they will gvg ?

If that's what's happening then tell me where the 1v1 server is because I'd be down to get on it. Of course I'm going to be honest and say I've always preferred IC because of the more predatory element and chances of being outnumbers so maybe I'm just not looking in the right places?

[edited to remove quote]

I also 1vX too and in those 1vXs I have to do several 1v1s. It happens when I kite far enough and someone gets a little too overconfident and gets caught with their pants down. It happens all the time. I’m sure you’re familiar with that scenario if you also do solo PvP.

In fact, unless you’re a in a dedicated AoE build, almost every 1vX is going to be small sequences of 1v1s because the majority of spammables and burst abilities are single target. So I’m not sure where you get this notion that 1v1s don’t occur frequently.

So yes as a single target build in 1vx you are really only killing 1 player at a time however your defensive position is a bit of a variable. You can only target singles but multiples can target you at once.

So yes you could balance all classes around a 1v1 scenario but then in theory you'd have to make them weaker to 1vx scenarios. I think this appeals to skill based players but wouldn't be fun for less skilled players.

Over the years in playing this game I've really watched how people respond to different fights we have. When I blow people away and they are unprepared for it some almost want to throw the controller and others send me whispers. My point being is that I can understand the perspective of someone that doesn't like getting two tapped by me just because I understand the game a bit more. I think zos is also trying to soften this blow and make the game more appealing for players of lesser skill At the same time these changes to make the game more accessible come in as a benefit to pve.

So at the end of the day would I love for this to be a game based around skill where you just get sharper or die? Of course I would. Do I see that zos seems to be going another way and that resistance to their spreadsheets is like playing the lottery at this point, kind of.

So for me the ward change doesn't really mean much and if someone else is getting happiness out of it then cool. If it's causing the game to go off the rails and will jeopardize zos revenue I expect they will get on that of their own accord.

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

But you do mind. You keep telling everyone the change doesn’t affect you in anyway, but you say things like “other classes have a strong burst heal so why should Sorc not get one”, or “nerf the other class healings first then we can talk” which are subtle indicators that you do want the change to stay.

I’m a stamsorc main and I played without a true burst heal for 5 years. Even when I asked for a burst heal, I asked for it to be less potent compared to other burst heals because the class is just too strong. I asked for Dark Deal to be instant cast with the same non scaling tooltip at a reduced resource return, NOT a 9k tooltip burst heal underneath a 15k Ward in PvP.

I don’t think you are unintentionally ignoring this balance issue. I think you’re jumping hoops trying to justify the change as “needed” because “other classes have it too”. You know what I think is wrong on your part? You’re leaving out the threads asking for nerfs to the changes that those classes have. Corrosive took 2 years to be nerfed and there were multiple threads complaining about it. Concealed Weapon took 6 patches to finally have its 10% damage done buff removed completely. Do you think 2 years is what it should take for a mechanic to be nerfed when it only took at best 2 months to see everything wrong with it? Do you think as players, we shouldn’t give feedback at all because at the end of the say ZOS has the data?

Posts like yours don’t help at all, to be frank. They sound indifferent with a slight hint of favoring one side, and anytime someone proposes a solid piece of counter argument you can always fall back to “ZOS has the data and decides”. It’s almost impossible to discuss with you if I’m being honest.

And quite frankly, I see you leaning more towards the ppl favoring Ward than actually being neutral. Clearly you disregard 1v1s as a metric of balance, when 1v1s is as accurate as you can get to combat balance in this game. Then you use large scale PvP as a metric of balance, but when magsorc is undoubtedly considered by many ppl to be overperforming in Cyrodiil, an environment where large scale battles occur, you still disregard it and instead ask for a bunch of unobtainable data. Why don’t you do the testing yourself then?

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

So for me the ward change doesn't really mean much

You said yourself you aren't bothering to understand game mechanics. That's why it doesn't really mean much.

Well actually I understand them fairly well. I just choose to employ or care about them to varying degrees these days.

But more to the point I survived just fine before the change so reverting it wouldn't really hurt me. Not sure others would feel the same though.

So you don’t care whether Ward gets adjusted or not, but you spent so much time arguing with me because some people might be hurt by a nerf? You’re speaking for the population that either doesn’t care about the change or is too inexperienced to understand how impactful the change has been.

The former is like those kids saying I shouldn’t wear Mexican cultural clothing because I ain’t Mexican, while the actual Mexicans don’t give a darn. The latter is more damaging than helpful because you’re doing so at the expense of throwing away combat balance to protect the inexperienced. You know they could literally just fix their issue of dying too often by getting better?

Magsorc has always been a high skill ceiling class and whoever got good at the class is super difficult to kill. It makes no sense to raise the floor on a high skill ceiling class to the point that even a complete newb can indefinitely tank damage from someone on their skill level or even a bit above their skill level.

Simple question, do you believe what you're looking to get out of this game is what ZOS has in mind for the future of the game?

I get wanting to improve the game but you understand the game has a target audience and direction right? I'm not trying to discourage or anything like that but I guess I'm wondering is the best question really about getting ward nerfed?

Bushido2513

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Not sure who they is but I would have to agree that outside of aoe and maybe dot damage skills it actually isn't possible to kill more than one opponent at a time.

Builds can do multiple things. My Warden can both AoE bomb and pressure 1v1. Sometimes I can catch multiples with the ult shalks spin2win combo, but more often I'm going to pressure down an isolated enemy from range 1v1 then close in to combo burst them. Pick off enemies one at a time like this until they're all dead. But even as strong as Warden is, Polar isn't a one button do everything like Ward, and Falcon doesn't reset the fight like Streak does.

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

True I'm sure they take into account some things that are said on the forum but their actions would suggest that this has very minor sway on them. I stress the emphasis on very and minor

They 100% eventually address meta elements that get consistent complaints, see: Stinging Slashes (MDW)

Yeah but it's chicken and egg that we'll never really know. Did they address it due to the complaint and because of the complaint or did they see the complaint then check their own data or do they have an algorithm on their side that already points out any stat outliers?

Like if it were me I'd just run periodic stat analysis on back end data to look for outliers on death recaps, class population, and so many other things that I can't think of right now. The point is that it's actually not too hard to automate internal data analysis to look for outliers then report them so maybe zos does this as well. Again we'll never know but I'm just giving a real world example where player input wouldn't even be required to initiate an investigation and possible remediation. Maybe zos does something like this already?

I hope not. That be one of the worst ways to make balance changes

What self correction based on internal analysis? Notice I said initiate an investigation no make a specific choice. I'm not saying it just gets decided with no oversight lol

Joy_Division

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

I am convinced nothing we say to @Bushido2513 can convince him that ward is overperforming. It's like trying to convince a brick wall

The past 3+ months of your comment history is SOLEY on ward. At this point you might just be trying to convince yourself.

I've actually said a few times that I don't believe players have access to the data needed to make a solid verifiable argument on how this change is good or bad for pvp as a whole. I'm not denying some obviously don't like it but some obviously do as well. I see both sides but I can't say that either has a solid argument that can't be denied. I've only said that personally the change doesn't bother me in my gameplay sessions but even that is just my opinion

But what is the point? Naturally nobody has access to all the data. Historians and social scientists never have access to all the data or even the data they would like, but they don;t just throw their hands in the air and tell the public, "Hey just believe what you want because there's no way to know for sure." Any argument in any field at any time can be derailed by insisting on the adherence of all the data.

Of course everybody's experience is going to be different. People tend to get the fights they look for. If I run in an organized group, I'll never face a 1v1 the entire night. If I go out there as a solo, I'll hardly ever get into a situation where I outnumber the enemy. If I zerg surf, I will very rarely be put into a situation in which I actually have to rely on my class or build to survive a tight situation. This is why opinions on class effectiveness are so varied. Again, this doesn't mean we have to just throw our hands up in the air and proclaim it's unknowable.

No doubt some players are going to like playing a class that can, after battle spirit, consistently negate 16-17K damage within the press of a single button that has no cooldown, no cast time, or no other restrictions, which can also just *poof* away at the slightest threat while zapping away at enemies with its full arsenal at max range. That they like doing that does not automatically makes possessing that capability a meaningful competitive experience for players of other classes who can't even do one of those things.

Bushido2513

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Not sure who they is but I would have to agree that outside of aoe and maybe dot damage skills it actually isn't possible to kill more than one opponent at a time.

Builds can do multiple things. My Warden can both AoE bomb and pressure 1v1. Sometimes I can catch multiples with the ult shalks spin2win combo, but more often I'm going to pressure down an isolated enemy from range 1v1 then close in to combo burst them. Pick off enemies one at a time like this until they're all dead. But even as strong as Warden is, Polar isn't a one button do everything like Ward, and Falcon doesn't reset the fight like Streak does.

It's all situational really. Polar can be shared with an attached buff and ward can't be. Streak can only reset a fight if your opponent doesn't have easily available movement speed. Yes in a 1v1 this doesn't all work out at all because of 1v1 balance but in gvg or xv1 if you really want to catch a sorc and nullify the effectiveness of ward and streak you can.

Bushido2513

Joy_Division wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

I am convinced nothing we say to @Bushido2513 can convince him that ward is overperforming. It's like trying to convince a brick wall

The past 3+ months of your comment history is SOLEY on ward. At this point you might just be trying to convince yourself.

I've actually said a few times that I don't believe players have access to the data needed to make a solid verifiable argument on how this change is good or bad for pvp as a whole. I'm not denying some obviously don't like it but some obviously do as well. I see both sides but I can't say that either has a solid argument that can't be denied. I've only said that personally the change doesn't bother me in my gameplay sessions but even that is just my opinion

But what is the point? Naturally nobody has access to all the data. Historians and social scientists never have access to all the data or even the data they would like, but they don;t just throw their hands in the air and tell the public, "Hey just believe what you want because there's no way to know for sure." Any argument in any field at any time can be derailed by insisting on the adherence of all the data.

Of course everybody's experience is going to be different. People tend to get the fights they look for. If I run in an organized group, I'll never face a 1v1 the entire night. If I go out there as a solo, I'll hardly ever get into a situation where I outnumber the enemy. If I zerg surf, I will very rarely be put into a situation in which I actually have to rely on my class or build to survive a tight situation. This is why opinions on class effectiveness are so varied. Again, this doesn't mean we have to just throw our hands up in the air and proclaim it's unknowable.

No doubt some players are going to like playing a class that can, after battle spirit, consistently negate 16-17K damage within the press of a single button that has no cooldown, no cast time, or no other restrictions, which can also just *poof* away at the slightest threat while zapping away at enemies with its full arsenal at max range. That they like doing that does not automatically makes possessing that capability a meaningful competitive experience for players of other classes who can't even do one of those things.

I didn't say throw your hands in the air. I've basically said share your thoughts, opinions, etc with the understanding that they are just those things. This isn't about throwing your hands in the air but understanding that zos is really the only entity that could make an accurate decision based on having the most data available.

But the point is that something like this needs to be seen outside of individual perspective as much as possible to have a good chance of making a non biased adjustment.

xylena_lazarow

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Polar can be shared with an attached buff and ward can't be. Streak can only reset a fight if your opponent doesn't have easily available movement speed.

Might wanna read your Daedric Summoning passives again if you think Ward doesn't have anything attached, and I specifically said in my previous post that even Falcon being the best speed skill in the game does NOT reset the fight the way a spammable teleport does, thanks to the speed cap you're always gonna get hit.

Bushido2513

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Polar can be shared with an attached buff and ward can't be. Streak can only reset a fight if your opponent doesn't have easily available movement speed.

Might wanna read your Daedric Summoning passives again if you think Ward doesn't have anything attached, and I specifically said in my previous post that even Falcon being the best speed skill in the game does NOT reset the fight the way a spammable teleport does, thanks to the speed cap you're always gonna get hit.

The attached buff in my opinion for pvp wouldn't be as effective as the buff from warden but that's subjective I agree. In what way are you talking about resetting the fight? The stun or the distance moved because both can be worked around depending on your build and playstyle.

For instance as a sorc if you streak through me and stun me I can just break and chase you with immunity and start doing damage and yes if I have major expedition and swift I have a good chance of catching you. So yes it stuns and yes you teleport but it's not a guaranteed reset or escape button.

Alchimiste1

Bushido2513 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Polar can be shared with an attached buff and ward can't be. Streak can only reset a fight if your opponent doesn't have easily available movement speed.

Might wanna read your Daedric Summoning passives again if you think Ward doesn't have anything attached, and I specifically said in my previous post that even Falcon being the best speed skill in the game does NOT reset the fight the way a spammable teleport does, thanks to the speed cap you're always gonna get hit.

The attached buff in my opinion for pvp wouldn't be as effective as the buff from warden but that's subjective I agree. In what way are you talking about resetting the fight? The stun or the distance moved because both can be worked around depending on your build and playstyle.

For instance as a sorc if you streak through me and stun me I can just break and chase you with immunity and start doing damage and yes if I have major expedition and swift I have a good chance of catching you. So yes it stuns and yes you teleport but it's not a guaranteed reset or escape button.

no, no you wont. mSorcs have 50k max mag, you aren't catching them if they don't want to be caught.

Bushido2513

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Polar can be shared with an attached buff and ward can't be. Streak can only reset a fight if your opponent doesn't have easily available movement speed.

Might wanna read your Daedric Summoning passives again if you think Ward doesn't have anything attached, and I specifically said in my previous post that even Falcon being the best speed skill in the game does NOT reset the fight the way a spammable teleport does, thanks to the speed cap you're always gonna get hit.

The attached buff in my opinion for pvp wouldn't be as effective as the buff from warden but that's subjective I agree. In what way are you talking about resetting the fight? The stun or the distance moved because both can be worked around depending on your build and playstyle.

For instance as a sorc if you streak through me and stun me I can just break and chase you with immunity and start doing damage and yes if I have major expedition and swift I have a good chance of catching you. So yes it stuns and yes you teleport but it's not a guaranteed reset or escape button.

no, no you wont. mSorcs have 50k max mag, you aren't catching them if they don't want to be caught.

You can test this for yourself if you like. Have a sorc try to run from you that hasn't invested anything in movement speed then you be on a character that has expedition and two swift with celerity. You'll be able to catch up to them fairly easily.

Some players don't build for speed so to them when a sorc takes off it's game over. I've been chased by those that pretty much made it their mission to hunt me down. I think I once threw like 4 streaks in a row and they were still keeping up with me. I was only able to get away by using los and elevation changes.

This also applies to trying to use a streak stun as a get away. A good player can break free and be right back on you and if you're in open field well it's just not quite an easy cake walk that some are making it out to be.

But yes I'll admit that if the other player has no investment in movement speed streak becomes a whole other animal to deal with.

Joy_Division

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

I am convinced nothing we say to @Bushido2513 can convince him that ward is overperforming. It's like trying to convince a brick wall

The past 3+ months of your comment history is SOLEY on ward. At this point you might just be trying to convince yourself.

I've actually said a few times that I don't believe players have access to the data needed to make a solid verifiable argument on how this change is good or bad for pvp as a whole. I'm not denying some obviously don't like it but some obviously do as well. I see both sides but I can't say that either has a solid argument that can't be denied. I've only said that personally the change doesn't bother me in my gameplay sessions but even that is just my opinion

But what is the point? Naturally nobody has access to all the data. Historians and social scientists never have access to all the data or even the data they would like, but they don;t just throw their hands in the air and tell the public, "Hey just believe what you want because there's no way to know for sure." Any argument in any field at any time can be derailed by insisting on the adherence of all the data.

Of course everybody's experience is going to be different. People tend to get the fights they look for. If I run in an organized group, I'll never face a 1v1 the entire night. If I go out there as a solo, I'll hardly ever get into a situation where I outnumber the enemy. If I zerg surf, I will very rarely be put into a situation in which I actually have to rely on my class or build to survive a tight situation. This is why opinions on class effectiveness are so varied. Again, this doesn't mean we have to just throw our hands up in the air and proclaim it's unknowable.

No doubt some players are going to like playing a class that can, after battle spirit, consistently negate 16-17K damage within the press of a single button that has no cooldown, no cast time, or no other restrictions, which can also just *poof* away at the slightest threat while zapping away at enemies with its full arsenal at max range. That they like doing that does not automatically makes possessing that capability a meaningful competitive experience for players of other classes who can't even do one of those things.

I didn't say throw your hands in the air. I've basically said share your thoughts, opinions, etc with the understanding that they are just those things. This isn't about throwing your hands in the air but understanding that zos is really the only entity that could make an accurate decision based on having the most data available.

But the point is that something like this needs to be seen outside of individual perspective as much as possible to have a good chance of making a non biased adjustment.

Just what sort of data do you think ZOS has? The combat team is tiny, their workload is immense, their PvP experience is limited to a few playstyles, none of them are top tier players. Even if they had the time, motivation, and personnel to sort through vague counting numbers such as what percentage of the population plays a sorc and how many use which morph, it's not like they are a progression raiding guild who studies logs in fine detail. In fact, I can guarantee the better players and organized groups that do study that data are far better informed what happens in Cyrodiil on a nightly basis. They know of bugs, incorrectly tooltips, and other quirks that I'd bet real money ZOS isn;t even aware of.

And even if they somehow had this data, the time to look at it closely, and the experience of multiple methods of playing PvP (ganking, BGs, organized groups, solo, dueling, etc.) to make good use of it, what in the past ten years gives us any confidence that they are the only entity that can make an accurate decision?

Bushido2513

Joy_Division wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

I am convinced nothing we say to @Bushido2513 can convince him that ward is overperforming. It's like trying to convince a brick wall

The past 3+ months of your comment history is SOLEY on ward. At this point you might just be trying to convince yourself.

I've actually said a few times that I don't believe players have access to the data needed to make a solid verifiable argument on how this change is good or bad for pvp as a whole. I'm not denying some obviously don't like it but some obviously do as well. I see both sides but I can't say that either has a solid argument that can't be denied. I've only said that personally the change doesn't bother me in my gameplay sessions but even that is just my opinion

But what is the point? Naturally nobody has access to all the data. Historians and social scientists never have access to all the data or even the data they would like, but they don;t just throw their hands in the air and tell the public, "Hey just believe what you want because there's no way to know for sure." Any argument in any field at any time can be derailed by insisting on the adherence of all the data.

Of course everybody's experience is going to be different. People tend to get the fights they look for. If I run in an organized group, I'll never face a 1v1 the entire night. If I go out there as a solo, I'll hardly ever get into a situation where I outnumber the enemy. If I zerg surf, I will very rarely be put into a situation in which I actually have to rely on my class or build to survive a tight situation. This is why opinions on class effectiveness are so varied. Again, this doesn't mean we have to just throw our hands up in the air and proclaim it's unknowable.

No doubt some players are going to like playing a class that can, after battle spirit, consistently negate 16-17K damage within the press of a single button that has no cooldown, no cast time, or no other restrictions, which can also just *poof* away at the slightest threat while zapping away at enemies with its full arsenal at max range. That they like doing that does not automatically makes possessing that capability a meaningful competitive experience for players of other classes who can't even do one of those things.

I didn't say throw your hands in the air. I've basically said share your thoughts, opinions, etc with the understanding that they are just those things. This isn't about throwing your hands in the air but understanding that zos is really the only entity that could make an accurate decision based on having the most data available.

But the point is that something like this needs to be seen outside of individual perspective as much as possible to have a good chance of making a non biased adjustment.

Just what sort of data do you think ZOS has? The combat team is tiny, their workload is immense, their PvP experience is limited to a few playstyles, none of them are top tier players. Even if they had the time, motivation, and personnel to sort through vague counting numbers such as what percentage of the population plays a sorc and how many use which morph, it's not like they are a progression raiding guild who studies logs in fine detail. In fact, I can guarantee the better players and organized groups that do study that data are far better informed what happens in Cyrodiil on a nightly basis. They know of bugs, incorrectly tooltips, and other quirks that I'd bet real money ZOS isn;t even aware of.

And even if they somehow had this data, the time to look at it closely, and the experience of multiple methods of playing PvP (ganking, BGs, organized groups, solo, dueling, etc.) to make good use of it, what in the past ten years gives us any confidence that they are the only entity that can make an accurate decision?

I think they have the data of anyone running a server. Now I'm not saying they are actually parsing it in useful ways I'm just saying that they can see all of the stats of their server if they truly wanted to. Also analysis tools would be something that could be developed with some effort but reused and refined over time to take less effort.

But ok let's say they don't really look at the data with that level of granularity. The question becomes how then do they even make any of the choices they currently do when creating patch notes? There has to be some system for these things as development goes.

But ok step away from that for a second and let's ask what's the better alternative? Take player feedback from players that don't agree on a solution and do what with that?

I'm not saying don't listen to players but even when you do listen to players you have to have some internal guidance system that supports your company's way of operation. I think zos is doing mostly exactly what they want to do and while it's not a great implementation we as players have to deal with it.


If we just try to get one thing fixed at a time I wonder how that leads to having direction when something else will just be broken and then we'll try to fix that and rinse repeat. Not saying do nothing but maybe there's a better way?

Pelanora

I really do think you're AI generated except you pre-date chatgpt. Still, that was the most chatgpt post yet.

Bushido2513

Pelanora wrote: »

I really do think you're AI generated except you pre-date chatgpt. Still, that was the most chatgpt post yet.

That's the beauty of the age we line in. Any number of digital interactions might be a real person or ai. One day we probably won't even know the difference.

xylena_lazarow

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Simple question, do you believe what you're looking to get out of this game is what ZOS has in mind for the future of the game?

yes

Bushido2513

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Simple question, do you believe what you're looking to get out of this game is what ZOS has in mind for the future of the game?

yes

Well then if that's the case we'll just have to see what happens with ward in the future but for now they've had a chance to change it and haven't done so, so there must be a reason right?

xylena_lazarow

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Well then if that's the case we'll just have to see what happens with ward in the future but for now they've had a chance to change it and haven't done so, so there must be a reason right?

Their dev model tends to move more slowly than players like, but that doesn't mean it doesn't move.

Alchimiste1

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Polar can be shared with an attached buff and ward can't be. Streak can only reset a fight if your opponent doesn't have easily available movement speed.

Might wanna read your Daedric Summoning passives again if you think Ward doesn't have anything attached, and I specifically said in my previous post that even Falcon being the best speed skill in the game does NOT reset the fight the way a spammable teleport does, thanks to the speed cap you're always gonna get hit.

The attached buff in my opinion for pvp wouldn't be as effective as the buff from warden but that's subjective I agree. In what way are you talking about resetting the fight? The stun or the distance moved because both can be worked around depending on your build and playstyle.

For instance as a sorc if you streak through me and stun me I can just break and chase you with immunity and start doing damage and yes if I have major expedition and swift I have a good chance of catching you. So yes it stuns and yes you teleport but it's not a guaranteed reset or escape button.

no, no you wont. mSorcs have 50k max mag, you aren't catching them if they don't want to be caught.

You can test this for yourself if you like. Have a sorc try to run from you that hasn't invested anything in movement speed then you be on a character that has expedition and two swift with celerity. You'll be able to catch up to them fairly easily.

Some players don't build for speed so to them when a sorc takes off it's game over. I've been chased by those that pretty much made it their mission to hunt me down. I think I once threw like 4 streaks in a row and they were still keeping up with me. I was only able to get away by using los and elevation changes.

This also applies to trying to use a streak stun as a get away. A good player can break free and be right back on you and if you're in open field well it's just not quite an easy cake walk that some are making it out to be.

But yes I'll admit that if the other player has no investment in movement speed streak becomes a whole other animal to deal with.

So you got aways for proving my point. I don't need to test something that I experience every time I play the game. Try alternating streaks X2 and dark deal and see who else besides a sorc can catch you. I'm pretty sure you'd be dead in that scenario on any other class.

Bushido2513

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Well then if that's the case we'll just have to see what happens with ward in the future but for now they've had a chance to change it and haven't done so, so there must be a reason right?

Their dev model tends to move more slowly than players like, but that doesn't mean it doesn't move.

That's true and I do feel like a change to ward could certainly happen but I think it will be just toned down or in the form of a hot which seems to be something players here could live with. Though I'm more curios to see what zos will do vs preferring the outcome to be one way or the other.

Bushido2513

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Polar can be shared with an attached buff and ward can't be. Streak can only reset a fight if your opponent doesn't have easily available movement speed.

Might wanna read your Daedric Summoning passives again if you think Ward doesn't have anything attached, and I specifically said in my previous post that even Falcon being the best speed skill in the game does NOT reset the fight the way a spammable teleport does, thanks to the speed cap you're always gonna get hit.

The attached buff in my opinion for pvp wouldn't be as effective as the buff from warden but that's subjective I agree. In what way are you talking about resetting the fight? The stun or the distance moved because both can be worked around depending on your build and playstyle.

For instance as a sorc if you streak through me and stun me I can just break and chase you with immunity and start doing damage and yes if I have major expedition and swift I have a good chance of catching you. So yes it stuns and yes you teleport but it's not a guaranteed reset or escape button.

no, no you wont. mSorcs have 50k max mag, you aren't catching them if they don't want to be caught.

You can test this for yourself if you like. Have a sorc try to run from you that hasn't invested anything in movement speed then you be on a character that has expedition and two swift with celerity. You'll be able to catch up to them fairly easily.

Some players don't build for speed so to them when a sorc takes off it's game over. I've been chased by those that pretty much made it their mission to hunt me down. I think I once threw like 4 streaks in a row and they were still keeping up with me. I was only able to get away by using los and elevation changes.

This also applies to trying to use a streak stun as a get away. A good player can break free and be right back on you and if you're in open field well it's just not quite an easy cake walk that some are making it out to be.

But yes I'll admit that if the other player has no investment in movement speed streak becomes a whole other animal to deal with.

So you got aways for proving my point. I don't need to test something that I experience every time I play the game. Try alternating streaks X2 and dark deal and see who else besides a sorc can catch you. I'm pretty sure you'd be dead in that scenario on any other class.

I've done pretty much every version of escapes using streaks that can be done, multiple in a row with high regen, roll dodges inbetween to cool down the ramp penalty, elevation changes, streak into rolls with a backwards jump moving away from the opponent as the break free while still facing them, and so on. If group built for hunting players wants to catch up to you they still will.

One of the exceptions I've found is just if you change direction away from the opponent and stay at the edge of the radius where they can see you. If you keep that up you'd get away because you already had enough distance to get away and the streak is just icing on the cake at that point.

@StaticWave posted a video somewhere of how someone was able to catch up to him easily while he was still using streaks. I've had several instances but don't think I bothered to record it because it wasn't really very interesting tbh.

Galeriano2

Bushido2513 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Yeah but it's chicken and egg that we'll never really know.

We do. The egg came first, laid by a bird that was chicken-like but not quite a modern chicken. ZOS also knows, they're professional game devs who are plenty capable of collecting data from forums and in-game.

The question was do they address complaints or do they just do what they want to and sometimes that just happens to address complaints.

Both honestly

Alchimiste1

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Polar can be shared with an attached buff and ward can't be. Streak can only reset a fight if your opponent doesn't have easily available movement speed.

Might wanna read your Daedric Summoning passives again if you think Ward doesn't have anything attached, and I specifically said in my previous post that even Falcon being the best speed skill in the game does NOT reset the fight the way a spammable teleport does, thanks to the speed cap you're always gonna get hit.

The attached buff in my opinion for pvp wouldn't be as effective as the buff from warden but that's subjective I agree. In what way are you talking about resetting the fight? The stun or the distance moved because both can be worked around depending on your build and playstyle.

For instance as a sorc if you streak through me and stun me I can just break and chase you with immunity and start doing damage and yes if I have major expedition and swift I have a good chance of catching you. So yes it stuns and yes you teleport but it's not a guaranteed reset or escape button.

no, no you wont. mSorcs have 50k max mag, you aren't catching them if they don't want to be caught.

You can test this for yourself if you like. Have a sorc try to run from you that hasn't invested anything in movement speed then you be on a character that has expedition and two swift with celerity. You'll be able to catch up to them fairly easily.

Some players don't build for speed so to them when a sorc takes off it's game over. I've been chased by those that pretty much made it their mission to hunt me down. I think I once threw like 4 streaks in a row and they were still keeping up with me. I was only able to get away by using los and elevation changes.

This also applies to trying to use a streak stun as a get away. A good player can break free and be right back on you and if you're in open field well it's just not quite an easy cake walk that some are making it out to be.

But yes I'll admit that if the other player has no investment in movement speed streak becomes a whole other animal to deal with.

So you got aways for proving my point. I don't need to test something that I experience every time I play the game. Try alternating streaks X2 and dark deal and see who else besides a sorc can catch you. I'm pretty sure you'd be dead in that scenario on any other class.

I've done pretty much every version of escapes using streaks that can be done, multiple in a row with high regen, roll dodges inbetween to cool down the ramp penalty, elevation changes, streak into rolls with a backwards jump moving away from the opponent as the break free while still facing them, and so on. If group built for hunting players wants to catch up to you they still will.

One of the exceptions I've found is just if you change direction away from the opponent and stay at the edge of the radius where they can see you. If you keep that up you'd get away because you already had enough distance to get away and the streak is just icing on the cake at that point.

@StaticWave posted a video somewhere of how someone was able to catch up to him easily while he was still using streaks. I've had several instances but don't think I bothered to record it because it wasn't really very interesting tbh.

You don't need to type a paragraph every time you respond. I think you missed the part where I said on any other class you wouldn't have escape in the first place. Also, stamsorc of the past could streak like twice, 50k max magsorc can streak more.

furthermore the issue isn't really streak. Its the fact that the class WITH steak also has access to a 15k shield that burst heals in the same gcd while being able to deal insane damage from 28 meters away

Bushido2513

Galeriano2 wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Yeah but it's chicken and egg that we'll never really know.

We do. The egg came first, laid by a bird that was chicken-like but not quite a modern chicken. ZOS also knows, they're professional game devs who are plenty capable of collecting data from forums and in-game.

The question was do they address complaints or do they just do what they want to and sometimes that just happens to address complaints.

Both honestly

You are correct, I should have said which is their primary way of operation in most cases. Though maybe it's a 50 50 or case by case basis? Maybe one dev is assigned to the ward investigation lol.

Auldwulfe

This reminds me of the thread where people are demanding a nerf to Wretched Vitality, and the week before, Deadly Strike, and the week before it was Order's Wrath, I think... and oh yeah, the jabs were too strong.... and we needed a nerf to Blast Bones..... and let's not even mention Nightblade..... despite the number of dead nightblades you see on the ground in a lot of fights.

And, as U35 taught us... light attacks were so OP, that we had to, desperately. cut those back.....

Outside of extreme cases, noted above, such as 50K plus magicka --- which is easy to deal with... Hardened Ward doesn't do ANY damage... and, if they have that much magicka, they probably are running short on stamina.... crowd control, and heal through their damage .... they WILL run out of stamina

I am, by far, not a great PVP player -- I have fun with it, and sometimes come out with terrible builds that are little more than speed bumps... but I have fun.
I have, with some of those dud builds, survived sorcs with hardened ward.... even ones with tons and tons of magicka, because I know my own build -- even if it is terrible (and many are)

The people I see always calling for "nerf this or nerf that", in my experience, are usually using someone else's "meta" build... and because they didn't create the build, they don't know how to push it to survive other builds..... It's not universal, but it does seem to be common.

However, if we keep screaming Nerf, Nerf, Nerf...... instead of looking for, or asking for a counter that is reasonable... then PVP will never get any real fix.... and eventually, you will all be fighting with marshmallows on a stick, while the opponent has 80K heals.... because of the constant screaming.

Auldwulfe

Auldwulfe

And here is the point, I am not saying that things don't need a balance pass -- DK's hitting you with flaming talons THROUGH a castle wall is one of them....
Or, a desync causing a warden to freeze you, despite the fact that as a bow character, you never got near them... but.......

However, if the only scream is nerf this, or nerf that, we are NOT getting the conversation that is needed. We are instead having a mob of screaming noise, and nothing being done, productively.

Auldwulfe

Auldwulfe

<snip>

Maybe -- I have taken one down with a Redguard Necro, so it can be done

Auldwulfe

<snipped removed quote>

Alchimiste1

Auldwulfe wrote: »

Outside of extreme cases, noted above, such as 50K plus magicka --- which is easy to deal with... Hardened Ward doesn't do ANY damage... and, if they have that much magicka, they probably are running short on stamina.... crowd control, and heal through their damage .... they WILL run out of stamina


Auldwulfe

This statement is wrong. You can still have 19k+ max stam with 50k mag and have high stam sustain on the meta wretched setup.

Auldwulfe

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Auldwulfe wrote: »

Outside of extreme cases, noted above, such as 50K plus magicka --- which is easy to deal with... Hardened Ward doesn't do ANY damage... and, if they have that much magicka, they probably are running short on stamina.... crowd control, and heal through their damage .... they WILL run out of stamina


Auldwulfe

This statement is wrong. You can still have 19k+ max stam with 50k mag and have high stam sustain on the meta wretched setup.

Well then, it must not have been a meta player with it ... and since they can kill anyone with any setup, it would not have mattered what they had... I was using a Redguard necro, and not a good one -- and still managed it. And that would mean you still have to know what you are doing to use it correctly.....

Point, again, is that we should not be constantly screaming Nerf Nerf... or we WILL get another U35

Auldwulfe