Do Sorcerers Complain too much?

Caribou77 · February 2023

Key distinction: Magsorc vs Stamsorc is incomparable.

The moment you trade a magicka staff for 2h or Dual Wield, you’re in a completely different category.

Imo, a sorc using dizzy/exec or spin to win is not a hybrid, they’re a stamsorc.

Many have pointed out that class hybridization was bad for magsorc. I agree.

AdamLAD · February 2023

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

AdamLAD wrote: »

I'm most certainly a good player on console. I have a YouTube. Go see for yourself. For the record I want sorcerer as a whole to be buffed. I'm merely just advocating for Shields more simply because it's a fact they are the weakest form of defence and most expensive. I'm not saying we need to make them gigantic like years ago. I do think 20% base increase for all Wards would be good enough. Remember this is from its base value to your probably only going to get maybe 2k on Hardened ward and maybe 1.5 on light armour Shield. That's only 3.5k maybe 4k extra in total value. That's not alot or ridiculously op. That could potentially be one crit Vigor tick extra in strength in other words. Shield 100% need a cost reduction at minimum, why they are so expensive is beyond my comprehensive ability. Some of our passives need reworking. That's literally it. Other morph of ward could be a burst heal for non shield builds or even hybrid stam sorcs. I'm all for buffs as whole to the class. But out of ALL the styles of play Shields are without a doubt THEE weakest which is why I'm asking for a semi reasonable buff. I've seen people ask for major breach, major protection no ramping cost of streak, no caps on wards. Just one of those would be stronger than what I'm suggesting. Which is basically one extra crit vigour tick size but on wards (Remember you would have too cast 2 wards to get that strength) and a reduction in cost, few passive reworks. Nothing absolutely huge.

I am ok with reducing shield cost so you can invest in more damage, but I don't think increasing the size is a good idea. You can already have a 20k+ shield by stacking Hardened + Dampen while having a decent HP pool for magsorc. Increasing that value to 25k is too much. That makes it impossible to burst you down if you are a decent player who reapplies shields correctly.

The cost reduction direction is better out of the two.

Are you able to kill a decent nb, dk or even ice warden who applies defense correctly ? Why does only sorc have to die then lol

What’s the point in even playing a class lol

I have given up lol and can’t really argue this.

At this point I am waiting for the arcanist class which I am sure will be overbuffed. Players will be ok with it coz it’s new and not a mag sorc

There's 35k HP players who can just sit on back bar and block which is far tankier than wards and healup to full whilst maintaining it. In this current era of eso any decent player who wants to and knows how to apply this will not die or at least survive better than anyone who uses wards for defence. I agree phenonix

StaticWave · February 2023

Lucifer9th wrote: »

@StaticWave
I try to replicate the build, i put the mundus lover, the race khajitt with the blue cp fighting finessse, arcane supremacy, deadly aim and master-at-arms and enable all possible buff, i did not reach the same value in max magicka, spell damage, penetration and crit damage :

i would like to know what is missing please because the stats you post looks good

I forgot to say that his pen is actually 14k. I asked him again yesterday and he told me it was 14k with breach. Other stats are correct as far as I’m concerned.

He runs Shadow Mundus and Fighting Finesse, so that’s around 69%. The other 10% can be from 5 medium and several divines. That would explain why he also has a higher spell damage value.

I’d have to ask him again for more specifics

StaticWave · February 2023

Which means he only has more crit dmg than @Jsmalls

PhoenixGrey · February 2023

AdamLAD wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

AdamLAD wrote: »

I'm most certainly a good player on console. I have a YouTube. Go see for yourself. For the record I want sorcerer as a whole to be buffed. I'm merely just advocating for Shields more simply because it's a fact they are the weakest form of defence and most expensive. I'm not saying we need to make them gigantic like years ago. I do think 20% base increase for all Wards would be good enough. Remember this is from its base value to your probably only going to get maybe 2k on Hardened ward and maybe 1.5 on light armour Shield. That's only 3.5k maybe 4k extra in total value. That's not alot or ridiculously op. That could potentially be one crit Vigor tick extra in strength in other words. Shield 100% need a cost reduction at minimum, why they are so expensive is beyond my comprehensive ability. Some of our passives need reworking. That's literally it. Other morph of ward could be a burst heal for non shield builds or even hybrid stam sorcs. I'm all for buffs as whole to the class. But out of ALL the styles of play Shields are without a doubt THEE weakest which is why I'm asking for a semi reasonable buff. I've seen people ask for major breach, major protection no ramping cost of streak, no caps on wards. Just one of those would be stronger than what I'm suggesting. Which is basically one extra crit vigour tick size but on wards (Remember you would have too cast 2 wards to get that strength) and a reduction in cost, few passive reworks. Nothing absolutely huge.

I am ok with reducing shield cost so you can invest in more damage, but I don't think increasing the size is a good idea. You can already have a 20k+ shield by stacking Hardened + Dampen while having a decent HP pool for magsorc. Increasing that value to 25k is too much. That makes it impossible to burst you down if you are a decent player who reapplies shields correctly.

The cost reduction direction is better out of the two.

Are you able to kill a decent nb, dk or even ice warden who applies defense correctly ? Why does only sorc have to die then lol

What’s the point in even playing a class lol

I have given up lol and can’t really argue this.

At this point I am waiting for the arcanist class which I am sure will be overbuffed. Players will be ok with it coz it’s new and not a mag sorc

There's 35k HP players who can just sit on back bar and block which is far tankier than wards and healup to full whilst maintaining it. In this current era of eso any decent player who wants to and knows how to apply this will not die or at least survive better than anyone who uses wards for defence. I agree phenonix

Yeah, totally agree !!

You could literally sit there and tank out multiple mag sorcs on a warden, DK or even avoid all damage on NB.

Its just that there is a severe lack of defence on sorc. I am not saying sorc should be as tanky as a DK but i cannot agree with passing around rallying cry or streak as excuses to make up for non existent defense.

Literally anyone can wear rallying cry and streak is not as good as it used to be.

Shields should be buffed at the very least.

Caribou77 · February 2023

If his spell pen is 13162 unbuffed and he’s running elem suscep then his pen should be ~ 19k, which isn’t bad. I aim for 21k pen these days, higher if I can.

Turtle_Bot · February 2023

After reading through many recent balance NB threads, I can say for certain that sorcs don't complain that much at all compared to how much NBs complain at the mere mention of their class being brought back into line with everyone else (or everyone else being brought up to their level), especially considering where sorc is at for the average player compared to where NB is currently at.

Sorcs do still complain, never going to deny that, but it's nowhere near as bad as many people like to try and claim.

Jsmalls · February 2023

@StaticWave

I really don't play CP too often, but I threw the build together with a few modifications.

Swapped out his ele sustain for s&b pierce armor, since that's a one and done proc for both major and minor breach for wretched, also threw a breach poison on for extra pen. Was hitting about 20k penetration.

Also swapped ddf for sea serpent just cuz damage. And instead of chudan mismatched dual stat monster. Swapped rallying cry for an offset 3 pc willpower front and 2 PC willpower back bar. And added 2 PC trainee to fit the rest. Was trying to keep the damage shield high enough to be the main defense, with dodge roll as a strong secondary defense due to the decreased stamina cost of having breach so not needing a stamina spammable.

Ended with like 5500 spell damage 46k Magicka, 10% damage from major berserk, 20k pen, same recoveries, etc still using mage vs shadow for the balance between added consistent damage and extra defense.

Solid for CP PvP and duels. Easier to sustain than my setup because I have to micro manage my resource pools to have the same recoveries, but I've gotten pretty good at it. But this is still without vigor and a smaller shield would probably match about what I run currently with the PTS buff, which as I said Im okay with my defensive state.

But obviously this setup doesn't work in No CP where I spend most of my time.

Jsmalls · February 2023

StaticWave wrote: »

Which means he only has more crit dmg than @Jsmalls

@StaticWave

Hmm which means I have ~700 more "spell damage" versus his 20% more crit damage. So once again nothing too crazy in stat difference. My damage is consistently higher but he'll have a slight edge if everything crits. But nothing that's going to give him consistent 10k frags on meta setups, guaranteed he's still getting 6-9k crits just like me pretty often. And the 10k hits happened if they drop their defenses or are running a lower resistance setup.

Edit:

So that brings me back to the whole burst class that's missing the burst. We setup our abilities to combo everything, and even IF they hit, it's lackluster. My curse and frag are hitting for what a spectral bow would hit for (probably less). And the spectral bow is a lot less telegraphed.

I'm not asking for easy mode trust me. Im just asking for fair damage for fair effort.

If I'm using my ultimate (OL light attack), a spammable (imbue weapons), curse, a RNG proc with crystal frags, and streak (which has a moderate tooltip), and fitting them all into virtually the same GCD, and landing 4 abilities and a light attack ultimate....

That's A LOT of effort, a lot of telegraphing, a lot of gcds doing no damage, and needs a lot to go right for burst damage. A character build thats built heavily into damage should be rewarded accordingly in my opinion. And it still falls short against 90% of meta players. And what happens when it falls short... As a burst class that needs setup to deal significant damage you arent able to follow up a burst that took 5 gcds to setup with significant pressure, so they cc break, dodge roll and heal to full and that's that.

So what's the answer to that? Go for sustained damage. And if that's what the answer is then I'll just change classes, because MagSorcs don't have the class abilities for that.

PhoenixGrey · February 2023

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

Not a sorc main but I play one a fair amount and shred every time so I am not convinced they're in any kind of bad shape. Sorcs are unmatched regarding long-range offense + mobility and that should come with some weaknesses. To me it makes sense that healing/tankiness is their weakness.

They aren't. They've never been at the bottom of the tier list. They were definitely shadowed by OP classes like pre-nerfed templar and current DK, but they could hold their own against most builds and classes. If I were to rank them, I'd put them in the B+/A tier.

What baffles me is how most sorc mains refuse to accept that their class would be OP if ZOS decided to buff it using their suggestions. Sorc's playstyle hasn't changed over 5 years, yet it could still keep up with most classes. Any drastic buffs would push the class over the top like NB. NB's never been bad either, but these recent unnecessary buffs turned it into one of the strongest/borderline overperforming classes.

I am pretty sure we have reached the end of the rope as far as sorc buffs go.
ZOS clearly wants us to play 40k health sorcs doing tons of uncounterable oblivion damage

This comment is ageing well.

Arcanist is definitely my next sorc. Time to make Arcanist buff threads lol 😂

PhoenixGrey · February 2023

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

After reading through many recent balance NB threads, I can say for certain that sorcs don't complain that much at all compared to how much NBs complain at the mere mention of their class being brought back into line with everyone else (or everyone else being brought up to their level), especially considering where sorc is at for the average player compared to where NB is currently at.

Sorcs do still complain, never going to deny that, but it's nowhere near as bad as many people like to try and claim.

I don’t think sorcs complain much at all

If they did we wouldn’t be in this situation in the first place

OBJnoob · February 2023

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

I don’t think sorcs complain much at all

If they did we wouldn’t be in this situation in the first place

I mean nobody complains when things are how they like them. Sorcs have a reason to complain-- sure-- and so they do.

The real question obviously is do they complain more than other classes. I'd say they're up there on the list.

Nightblades have always complained a lot, methinks. So they take the cake just from sheer longevity.

I'd say sorcs are tied for 2nd with Templars -- who also have a good reason to complain.

Templars at least seem to mostly agree on what they need though. These sorc threads lately have gotten hard to read through. It's less like a united attempt at getting buffed and more like a contest to see who knows what and can be adopted as the class rep.

-shrug-

Turtle_Bot · February 2023

OBJnoob wrote: »

Templars at least seem to mostly agree on what they need though. These sorc threads lately have gotten hard to read through. It's less like a united attempt at getting buffed and more like a contest to see who knows what and can be adopted as the class rep.

-shrug-

This last point is why I made my original thread on sorc last year after U36 dropped where I went over the entire class kit. I wanted to try and find out where the most common complaints were for the class to try and sift through this whole argument to hopefully achieve a direction that most would be happy with.

I did succeed with that goal btw, it's how I managed to narrow down all of the issues everyone has with the class to the 3 main issues below:

- lack of reliable burst heal not tied to pets (being forced into pets that don't work for pvp and not many enjoy even for pve)
- lack of staple and synergistic buff/debuff access (notably crit chance and crit damage modifiers)
- outdated passives that need updating and tidying up (passives that double dip or just flat out don't fit the class's design)

Of course there are other issues, but those 3 were the main ones that kept coming up in some form or another by anyone who wanted sorc buffed.

Also, to add to this point, it doesn't help when others who either "meta hop" classes and never play sorc when it's in a mediocre state, or simply never play the class at all, constantly come in and try to derail the threads with complete nonsense from what they remember of the class 5 or more years ago.
All these people do is derail threads about sorc and cause rifts like this where sorc mains end up arguing with each other over the specifics instead of realizing they are all trying to get the same result, a buff/fix for the class.
Unfortunately there have been a few commenters that have been very successful in derailing sorc threads in this way and I really wish ZOS would actually, finally do something about them.

OBJnoob · February 2023

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Also, to add to this point, it doesn't help when others who either "meta hop" classes and never play sorc when it's in a mediocre state, or simply never play the class at all, constantly come in and try to derail the threads with complete nonsense from what they remember of the class 5 or more years ago.
All these people do is derail threads about sorc and cause rifts like this where sorc mains end up arguing with each other over the specifics instead of realizing they are all trying to get the same result, a buff/fix for the class.

I see a lot of sorc mains in threads like this who basically just want to go back to 5 years ago. Revert BOL, give me my third bar back, make frags stun, makes shields viable. I would think these people would have lots in common with people that haven't played the class in years.

But even if they don't-- the existence of uneducated people is not an excuse for educated people to disagree. Y'all disagree because you disagree.

Even your response to me felt like a weird political ad for yourself. I think my take is pretty on point. Doesnt have to be an insult. If things are bad then complain -shrugs- I don't create threads to complain. But I show up in other threads and complain, LOL.

But okay I don't want to derail the topic too much. I've just been waiting to say that since this thread got created (and immediately commandeered and turned into a carbon copy of the other two sorc threads that were circulating at the time.) It's meant as a jab, yes, but a light-hearted one.

Mr_Stach · February 2023

Every time I see this post pop up I chuckle a little to myself and think "yeah, probably."

But Sorc does need some love. Warden got some and it feels good, even though it has that weird Frost Staff stapled on.

No class should feel how Sorc or Templar feels, how Warden felt. It's a failure of design.

I hope you guys get what you need.

Amottica · February 2023

I think in general there is a lot of complaining in these forums. Sometimes we even complain about the complaining.

PhoenixGrey · February 2023

OBJnoob wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Also, to add to this point, it doesn't help when others who either "meta hop" classes and never play sorc when it's in a mediocre state, or simply never play the class at all, constantly come in and try to derail the threads with complete nonsense from what they remember of the class 5 or more years ago.
All these people do is derail threads about sorc and cause rifts like this where sorc mains end up arguing with each other over the specifics instead of realizing they are all trying to get the same result, a buff/fix for the class.

I see a lot of sorc mains in threads like this who basically just want to go back to 5 years ago. Revert BOL, give me my third bar back, make frags stun, makes shields viable. I would think these people would have lots in common with people that haven't played the class in years.

But even if they don't-- the existence of uneducated people is not an excuse for educated people to disagree. Y'all disagree because you disagree.

Even your response to me felt like a weird political ad for yourself. I think my take is pretty on point. Doesnt have to be an insult. If things are bad then complain -shrugs- I don't create threads to complain. But I show up in other threads and complain, LOL.

But okay I don't want to derail the topic too much. I've just been waiting to say that since this thread got created (and immediately commandeered and turned into a carbon copy of the other two sorc threads that were circulating at the time.) It's meant as a jab, yes, but a light-hearted one.

Nb went back to how it was before.

I don’t see a problem asking for things which existed before.

Meta has evolved and things which were OP back then aren’t OP now

I can give you an easy example
Stacking 30k hp is a norm now on open world builds and would have been considered OP back then

Most people are terrified of overbuffing mag sorc and actually put up a show as if there is a care for game balance.

But in reality they don’t. If they did we wouldn’t have DK, NB or ice warden in this state would we ? They don’t want sorc spoiling their party now do they ?

Do you see me complaining about it ? No I don’t because I choose not to play both sides

OBJnoob · February 2023

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

1)Most people are terrified of overbuffing mag sorc and actually put up a show as if there is a care for game balance.

2) Do you see me complaining about it ? No I don’t because I choose not to play both sides

1) I don't disagree. But you told me not so long ago that you intentionally ask for OP stuff because you're hoping ZOS will meet you halfway. Remember? So that might be fine between you and them... But in these discussions it puts you at odds with both the nay-sayers and the people trying to force reasonable changes. I don't think it's fair for you to pretend to be on the "higher road."

2) Do I see you complaining about what? The state of magsorcs? The strength of NBs? The devs who play NB? Why yes, I see you complain all the time.

StaticWave · February 2023

I hope people understand that when I’m making all these arguments opposing sorcs, I’m actually not opposing the idea of buffing the class, but rather the idea of over-buffing it. All the changes I could ask for are:

1) A true burst heal
2) More spell crit rate

Everything else doesn’t matter and/or would make the class too good.

ForumBully · February 2023

StaticWave wrote: »

I hope people understand that when I’m making all these arguments opposing sorcs, I’m actually not opposing the idea of buffing the class, but rather the idea of over-buffing it. All the changes I could ask for are:

1) A true burst heal
2) More spell crit rate

Everything else doesn’t matter and/or would make the class too good.

We should do all the "too good" things...then do the same with other classes. Maybe we just don't need useless crap.