Do Sorcerers Complain too much?

Brrrofski

StaticWave wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Same main sets as my normal stamsorc build but with Chudan and Ice staff back bar:





Fully buffed with pots and CP, no continuous. Essence thief adds another 500-800 recovery and 10% damage done on top. Pen is around 21k fully buffed with Major/Minor Breach and Cwep pen. Daedric Trickery gives Major Expedition/Vitality/Mending/Heroism/Protection. Can always drop it for more damage but I doubt it's necessary. The only thing missing is a burst heal, but next patch with HP scaling Hardened Ward I can drop Bound Aegis for that (Shield is way better than blocking).

As you can see, it is not that hard to come up with a build that still has the magsorc playstyle but better. Whether you want to do that or not is your choice.

I'm sorry, but I can't take this build seriously as an open world option. Less than 18k physical resistance in the current meta is just asking to get 1 shot unless you have well over 40k health. Especially on PC EU where builds/bugs are exploited as soon as they are discovered and performance forces tankiness because skills still don't work reliably.
Most "squishy" builds are currently running buffed, 25k+ armor, regular builds at 30k+ and tanks at 35k+.

I know this build won't work, I've tried similar builds in the past (even back when resto was strong and fixed our healing issues), but buffed resistances that low without sea-serpents and 4 defensive blue CP just screams gank me.

Are you telling me how my build works? I have a youtube channel with 1vX videos using this build for 3+ patches… Sets are unchanged, just abilities…

I'm sure it works for you on PC NA where lag, skill failure and all the other bugs are much less prevalent due to the server upgrades, but on PC EU where I play, I have ran very similar builds and they did not work at all, the lag is far too punishing, the builds in pvp are different and much tankier and as I said in my post, any time an exploit, bug or OP build is found it is immediately abused so running around with barely 21k resistances in openworld cyrodiil just doesn't cut it unless you're part of a group that can carry that low defense.
It becomes a DPS race and since the build effectively has no armor, it always loses that race except against very bad players.

I’ve always used the build even before server upgrades. I wouldn’t post the build if it wasn’t field tested.

And I did say that it wasn't only the server performance being the difference between your build working for you and it not working for me.

There's a huge difference between EU and NA pvp, more so than NA players like to admit. I've watched players from both servers, played on both servers and have friends that have played very high level pvp on both servers and every time it's come back as EU is much harder to run squishy builds on due to multiple factors, everyone being much tankier, many more players exploiting broken/bugged/OP builds, more/larger zergs that have no chill, less mediocre players, server performance and other factors such as playstyles.

Don't take this as "you're a bad player" because that is definitely not what I'm trying to say or infer, it is only meant to point out that there are many differences between the servers and players and what works for someone on 1 server won't work for someone else on another server, or even on the same server due to many different factors.

People massively overlook skill/knowledge difference on servers.

I started on Xbox EU and moved to NA. The difference is night and day. I know Adam Lad plays EU (who is one of the top mag sorcs on the server) and I think he plays NA so can probably comment.

For whatever reason, EU is a lot harder to run around solo. I find there to be overall a better quality of player.

When I first moved, I was like 300cp and using battlefield acrobat and fury I think. Because I was broke. And I was having decent success in open world, running solo on a NB. Good players stomped me of course, but overall I could hang on the server. That flat out wouldn't cut it on EU. I wouldn't kill 5% of the population there.

I think partly that's due to way lower population on EU, so the players that PvP has retained for the most part are ones more invested in it, so know how to build for and play better. You get less people who are trying it or don't play as much.

Even for less skilled players, there's even a dude on EP that tells the entire faction sets to use. So even if they aren't that good, they know what sets carry.

Are there good and bad players on both? Or course. Plenty of people on NA that are ridiculously good, and EU has some awful players. But overall, there's a big gap in level of opponent.

So it'll be the same with other platforms and regions.

Most build videos I see are PC NA and they often make me laugh a bit, because there's no way you could get away with those builds in the PvP I play. They either don't have the damage I know you need, or have no resistance so will get eaten alive by the damage being pumped out by most players, or have no sustain which won't cut it as fights don't end that quick.

And often in the videos, I can't work out what the enemies are doing. They don't heal, buff or put pressure on. PvP doesn't look like that to me. I come across those players for sure, but not 6 of them at a time.

I'm not calling people or servers out. Like I said, there's reason that quality changes. PC has the biggest player base, so with that comes even more casuals. But my experience has shown me that quality does change.

Anyway, to make my post relevant to the topic, some of they builds/way to play sorc that I see mentioned, won't last two seconds in the PvP I know. They'll kill very little and die very quick.

Do you realize that console meta is like several patches behind PC? 4-5 months ago there was an influx of console transfers on PC NA and people were literally using sets that nobody runs on PC because there are better options.

The average pug on PC maybe worse, but the top tier players on PC definitely have better builds.

Nah, it's not. How would it be?

It's two weeks behind, because pc gets it two weeks earlier...

If people where moving to PC, they played the game enough to know what's going on. So I doubt they were using sets from patches ago.

Because one, some reason many people on console refuse to run certain sets because it's "cheese", even though the set is clearly a better option than what they have. And two, people on console just don't try new things. Why do stamsorcs on console still run Dizzying Swing when Bow sorc/ranged sorc/DW sorc are much better?

Where are you getting that from? I see nothing BUT cheese. Nobody on Xbox is running daedric trickery on their sorc. Everyone's running the meta sets.

You have less of a player base, so those who stuck with PvP are interested so will look into it more. Find out what they need.

Everyone I know who plays PvP, looks at patch notes and comment on what looks meta, what they'll be farming and running etc.

Don't know why you think every sorc is running dizzying? I rarely come across it.

I don't even come across many sorcs in all honesty. Everyone is DK or NB, fair amount of bomb necros, wardens and healing templars and then a sprinkling of sorcs, all-round templars and like 3 normal necros.

Brrrofski

StaticWave wrote: »

AdamLAD wrote: »

There's 5 people on my server that I'd consider TOP and I don't mean just good mean beyond phenomenal. Entire zergs day in and day out just straight up struggle to fight them consistently and can survive for a long time upawrd of 30 mins whilst taking people out. Some zerg leaders have even told these players we don't even want to fight you. I've played alongside 4 of them. One of them plays numerous classes and asked me for a build for mag sorc. I give him a few options. He also tried his own. He just straight-up said its absolutely terrible how bad mag sorc is compared to other classes.

Not just that I've had numerous casual players message me saying how on earth are you even doing anything on mag sorcerer using shields.

Across the board the class is terrible. Like I stated previously normally there's a huge divide in opinion when it comes to balance, when it comes to casual players and top players. But from top to bottom and everything in between all I can see if people agreeing the class is truly awful.

I still don't understand why you want buffs to shield stacking.

Because nobody uses shields. Because they're crap. An iconic way of playing PvP in this game is miles behind now.

You're not using them. I'm not using them. Nobody is. So why do you think they don't need a rework?

Turtle_Bot

Brrrofski wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Same main sets as my normal stamsorc build but with Chudan and Ice staff back bar:





Fully buffed with pots and CP, no continuous. Essence thief adds another 500-800 recovery and 10% damage done on top. Pen is around 21k fully buffed with Major/Minor Breach and Cwep pen. Daedric Trickery gives Major Expedition/Vitality/Mending/Heroism/Protection. Can always drop it for more damage but I doubt it's necessary. The only thing missing is a burst heal, but next patch with HP scaling Hardened Ward I can drop Bound Aegis for that (Shield is way better than blocking).

As you can see, it is not that hard to come up with a build that still has the magsorc playstyle but better. Whether you want to do that or not is your choice.

I'm sorry, but I can't take this build seriously as an open world option. Less than 18k physical resistance in the current meta is just asking to get 1 shot unless you have well over 40k health. Especially on PC EU where builds/bugs are exploited as soon as they are discovered and performance forces tankiness because skills still don't work reliably.
Most "squishy" builds are currently running buffed, 25k+ armor, regular builds at 30k+ and tanks at 35k+.

I know this build won't work, I've tried similar builds in the past (even back when resto was strong and fixed our healing issues), but buffed resistances that low without sea-serpents and 4 defensive blue CP just screams gank me.

Are you telling me how my build works? I have a youtube channel with 1vX videos using this build for 3+ patches… Sets are unchanged, just abilities…

I'm sure it works for you on PC NA where lag, skill failure and all the other bugs are much less prevalent due to the server upgrades, but on PC EU where I play, I have ran very similar builds and they did not work at all, the lag is far too punishing, the builds in pvp are different and much tankier and as I said in my post, any time an exploit, bug or OP build is found it is immediately abused so running around with barely 21k resistances in openworld cyrodiil just doesn't cut it unless you're part of a group that can carry that low defense.
It becomes a DPS race and since the build effectively has no armor, it always loses that race except against very bad players.

I’ve always used the build even before server upgrades. I wouldn’t post the build if it wasn’t field tested.

And I did say that it wasn't only the server performance being the difference between your build working for you and it not working for me.

There's a huge difference between EU and NA pvp, more so than NA players like to admit. I've watched players from both servers, played on both servers and have friends that have played very high level pvp on both servers and every time it's come back as EU is much harder to run squishy builds on due to multiple factors, everyone being much tankier, many more players exploiting broken/bugged/OP builds, more/larger zergs that have no chill, less mediocre players, server performance and other factors such as playstyles.

Don't take this as "you're a bad player" because that is definitely not what I'm trying to say or infer, it is only meant to point out that there are many differences between the servers and players and what works for someone on 1 server won't work for someone else on another server, or even on the same server due to many different factors.

People massively overlook skill/knowledge difference on servers.

I started on Xbox EU and moved to NA. The difference is night and day. I know Adam Lad plays EU (who is one of the top mag sorcs on the server) and I think he plays NA so can probably comment.

For whatever reason, EU is a lot harder to run around solo. I find there to be overall a better quality of player.

When I first moved, I was like 300cp and using battlefield acrobat and fury I think. Because I was broke. And I was having decent success in open world, running solo on a NB. Good players stomped me of course, but overall I could hang on the server. That flat out wouldn't cut it on EU. I wouldn't kill 5% of the population there.

I think partly that's due to way lower population on EU, so the players that PvP has retained for the most part are ones more invested in it, so know how to build for and play better. You get less people who are trying it or don't play as much.

Even for less skilled players, there's even a dude on EP that tells the entire faction sets to use. So even if they aren't that good, they know what sets carry.

Are there good and bad players on both? Or course. Plenty of people on NA that are ridiculously good, and EU has some awful players. But overall, there's a big gap in level of opponent.

So it'll be the same with other platforms and regions.

Most build videos I see are PC NA and they often make me laugh a bit, because there's no way you could get away with those builds in the PvP I play. They either don't have the damage I know you need, or have no resistance so will get eaten alive by the damage being pumped out by most players, or have no sustain which won't cut it as fights don't end that quick.

And often in the videos, I can't work out what the enemies are doing. They don't heal, buff or put pressure on. PvP doesn't look like that to me. I come across those players for sure, but not 6 of them at a time.

I'm not calling people or servers out. Like I said, there's reason that quality changes. PC has the biggest player base, so with that comes even more casuals. But my experience has shown me that quality does change.

Anyway, to make my post relevant to the topic, some of they builds/way to play sorc that I see mentioned, won't last two seconds in the PvP I know. They'll kill very little and die very quick.

Do you realize that console meta is like several patches behind PC? 4-5 months ago there was an influx of console transfers on PC NA and people were literally using sets that nobody runs on PC because there are better options.

The average pug on PC maybe worse, but the top tier players on PC definitely have better builds.

Nah, it's not. How would it be?

It's two weeks behind, because pc gets it two weeks earlier...

If people where moving to PC, they played the game enough to know what's going on. So I doubt they were using sets from patches ago.

Because one, some reason many people on console refuse to run certain sets because it's "cheese", even though the set is clearly a better option than what they have. And two, people on console just don't try new things. Why do stamsorcs on console still run Dizzying Swing when Bow sorc/ranged sorc/DW sorc are much better?

Where are you getting that from? I see nothing BUT cheese. Nobody on Xbox is running daedric trickery on their sorc. Everyone's running the meta sets.

You have less of a player base, so those who stuck with PvP are interested so will look into it more. Find out what they need.

Everyone I know who plays PvP, looks at patch notes and comment on what looks meta, what they'll be farming and running etc.

Don't know why you think every sorc is running dizzying? I rarely come across it.

I don't even come across many sorcs in all honesty. Everyone is DK or NB, fair amount of bomb necros, wardens and healing templars and then a sprinkling of sorcs, all-round templars and like 3 normal necros.

This has been my experience on PC EU as well. The only addition to this are the occasional heavy attack sorcs that sit on top of keep walls or at the back of zergs holding the left mouse button and occasionally using mages wrath. They aren't really playing sorc though since you can do the exact same thing with plar and beam and get better results (which many do) and this is not really even pvp either, its just sitting on the walls pew pewing from safety and all of these players melt in literally 2 seconds when you reach them.

VixxVexx

Sorcs do complain too much, as does everyone else. But it's understandable with the way this game has been going.

I think the idea of console being several patches behind PC (build wise) is because of the NMA/Heartland meme. There is some truth to it though. NMA and Heartland were popular on console for a lot longer than they should have been. There's also the fact that console content creators keep spewing out absolute garbage because build videos produce more views. They end up just parroting what someone else mentioned without saying anything useful

Also, nerf sorc

StaticWave

AdamLAD wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

AdamLAD wrote: »

There's 5 people on my server that I'd consider TOP and I don't mean just good mean beyond phenomenal. Entire zergs day in and day out just straight up struggle to fight them consistently and can survive for a long time upawrd of 30 mins whilst taking people out. Some zerg leaders have even told these players we don't even want to fight you. I've played alongside 4 of them. One of them plays numerous classes and asked me for a build for mag sorc. I give him a few options. He also tried his own. He just straight-up said its absolutely terrible how bad mag sorc is compared to other classes.

Not just that I've had numerous casual players message me saying how on earth are you even doing anything on mag sorcerer using shields.

Across the board the class is terrible. Like I stated previously normally there's a huge divide in opinion when it comes to balance, when it comes to casual players and top players. But from top to bottom and everything in between all I can see if people agreeing the class is truly awful.

I still don't understand why you want buffs to shield stacking.

I thought after all this it was blatantly obvious. Sorcerers have dropped wards because they are awful. They are absolute paper and cost way to much. Shields are by far the weakest and most expensive form of defence in the game. They are due a buff. Not to the extent of what they were in the past before murkmire. But they definitely need a buff. Why don't you want them buffed ?

What buff do you want for shields?

StaticWave

Brrrofski wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

This is all I have, I no longer make videos about this game.

https://youtu.be/OHcjl02gJL0

https://youtu.be/VLTP4a1r1z4

You combo and move like a good player for sure.

But in the first clip in the first vid, you kill a guy that doesn't know how to CC break and a nightblade that does nothing but cloak.

Next clip, they do no damage to you.

Last clip, someone's using whirling blades on you at full health.

Nothing there tells me anything about how good the build is tbh. You could kill those people with any build I'd suspect.

Listen, I'm not bashing you, I'm bashing sorc. Do you play other classes? Surely you notice the difference if you do? Because things I can do on my sorc at the moment pale in comparison to my NB or DK.

And that's me crutching on Mara's Balm on my sorc. I kill plenty of people on it for sure, and have some nice 1vX. But there's too many times where I lose a fight and I know if I was on another class (apart from Templar tbf), I probably would've won it.

I can guarantee you there are hundreds of other vids where I did not make it out alive, even after killing 2-3 of the enemies in a 1vX. There are also clips of me kiting 5-7 people for 5-10 minutes and not dying, but I’m not killing anyone either. I don’t post them on youtube because they are boring to watch.

I cherry pick fights that end up a W for me to post on youtube. This of course involves fighting people much worse than me, but that’s what 1vXing is.

Once I fought a 1v4 with the last one being a semi decent magDk that likes to zerg people down. It took me 10 minutes to kill that DK when he was the last man standing. Would you watch that, or a fight where I can kill everyone in less than 10 minutes?

You don’t have to think the build is good, but I’ve used it in 1v1s, 1vX, BG, and openworld Cyrodiil. It’s done really well for me, and mathematically it’s one of the best builds out there that can satisfy my requirements. I don’t just randomly put sets together and call it. I do a lot of number crunching with CMX and testing my heals against other people before deciding to stick with it. Nothing has come close to what the build can provide for me.

Yes, I play all stamina classes. Stamsorc is weaker than most, and I’ve made many threads asking for sorc buffs if you check my forum profile. What I disagree is the buff direction that many sorc mains are going for.

If the build works for you, that's cool.

But it doesn't cut it on Xbox. You wouldn't have a huge amount of success. I guarantee it.

So back to the point, you can't base what sorc needs just on your experience. Because your experience is nothing like other people's.

Why would it not cut it?

You're assuming I only fight people who don't know how to build. I also duel with this build against meta builds and top tier players and I'm having success.

The lack of resist is off-set by a 36k HP pool and active blocking. I've dueled a lot of console transfers and most of them don't seem to block quite often. You see, I've dueled so much that my main form of defense is active defense, aka blocking and dodging. I don't need that much resistance. Also, it doesn't really matter if I have 35k armor. A NB will still land a 15k crit Bow, and a DK with Corrosive will ignore armor.

So no, I will do just fine on Xbox. I can guarantee it.

I can absolutely base what sorc needs just on my experience. The thing is, I've done just about every single type of content there is in the game at the highest level, and the experience at the highest level is true across all platforms. If I can use this build and have success against top tier players in a 1v1 and also have success in OW PvP, then it's a good build, unless you're also saying the top tier players on PC NA are also worse than on Xbox?

All you've shown in open world if you fighting players that don't really know what they're doing. Not healing, panic cloaking, executes at full health etc. Dueling is almost a different form of PvP too. I think sorc is decent in dueling. So it's a different point.

To be clear, this isn't about YOU. I'm not doubting you as a player, please don't think I am. You might do well. I do well on a sorc still. But put us both on a NB or DK and we'd both undoubtedly do better. I swap between characters often and I instantly notice the difference.

All I'm disputing is that you think sorc is ok, and is good enough that you can even run that setup. When I think you can't say "I do ok, sorc is ok". Especially considering you don't know the different experiences that people on other servers have.

I'm not saying the best players on any server is better than others. Only that some have more casuals, so the overall open world PvP experience is easier.

I haven't played pc. But I've watched countless streams for hundreds of hours, and what they fight on AVERAGE is not the same as my experience.

Stamsorc is not decent in dueling, I can tell you that right now. I have also advocated for stamsorc buffs MANY TIMES.

Like I said, that is one fight out of hundreds of fights I have using the build. One clip doesn’t say much about the skill level of a server. You are assuming too much about my build based off 1 video.

Let me repeat this clearly: I have dueled top tier players for thousands of duels and done 1vX, GvG, BGs, etc. using the same build. It performs well according to my standard for stamsorc, which is by no means low.

Let me also repeat this again: I have decided to drop armor because I realized that, after countless fights, max armor is useless against current burst and DKs, but 36-40k HP is not. I’m not dropping armor without doing something to compensate. That is why in every stamsorc build I have 36-40k HP and even in some cases, 45k HP. Not only does it help me survive burst better, but I also heal more off Blood Magic. This is something you need to understand before we can discuss further.

I don’t think my server is easier than console. We do have more newbies to pick on, but we also have more dedicated ball groups and seasoned zergs. All of our seasoned players don’t just disappear lol.

This basically boils down to what fights you pick. Most of my fights are against seasoned zergs who not only run meta builds, but also know the basic defensive stuff. I die a lot to those, and I’ve also survived them without killing many. It doesn’t make good content, so why would I upload them?

When you watch PC streamers, actually watch them play during prime time. You will see how hard it is to 1vX. Fights during off hours are easier, so if you spend time watching streamers who play during off hours then obviously you will think PC is easier to 1vX.

StaticWave

Brrrofski wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Same main sets as my normal stamsorc build but with Chudan and Ice staff back bar:





Fully buffed with pots and CP, no continuous. Essence thief adds another 500-800 recovery and 10% damage done on top. Pen is around 21k fully buffed with Major/Minor Breach and Cwep pen. Daedric Trickery gives Major Expedition/Vitality/Mending/Heroism/Protection. Can always drop it for more damage but I doubt it's necessary. The only thing missing is a burst heal, but next patch with HP scaling Hardened Ward I can drop Bound Aegis for that (Shield is way better than blocking).

As you can see, it is not that hard to come up with a build that still has the magsorc playstyle but better. Whether you want to do that or not is your choice.

I'm sorry, but I can't take this build seriously as an open world option. Less than 18k physical resistance in the current meta is just asking to get 1 shot unless you have well over 40k health. Especially on PC EU where builds/bugs are exploited as soon as they are discovered and performance forces tankiness because skills still don't work reliably.
Most "squishy" builds are currently running buffed, 25k+ armor, regular builds at 30k+ and tanks at 35k+.

I know this build won't work, I've tried similar builds in the past (even back when resto was strong and fixed our healing issues), but buffed resistances that low without sea-serpents and 4 defensive blue CP just screams gank me.

Are you telling me how my build works? I have a youtube channel with 1vX videos using this build for 3+ patches… Sets are unchanged, just abilities…

I'm sure it works for you on PC NA where lag, skill failure and all the other bugs are much less prevalent due to the server upgrades, but on PC EU where I play, I have ran very similar builds and they did not work at all, the lag is far too punishing, the builds in pvp are different and much tankier and as I said in my post, any time an exploit, bug or OP build is found it is immediately abused so running around with barely 21k resistances in openworld cyrodiil just doesn't cut it unless you're part of a group that can carry that low defense.
It becomes a DPS race and since the build effectively has no armor, it always loses that race except against very bad players.

I’ve always used the build even before server upgrades. I wouldn’t post the build if it wasn’t field tested.

And I did say that it wasn't only the server performance being the difference between your build working for you and it not working for me.

There's a huge difference between EU and NA pvp, more so than NA players like to admit. I've watched players from both servers, played on both servers and have friends that have played very high level pvp on both servers and every time it's come back as EU is much harder to run squishy builds on due to multiple factors, everyone being much tankier, many more players exploiting broken/bugged/OP builds, more/larger zergs that have no chill, less mediocre players, server performance and other factors such as playstyles.

Don't take this as "you're a bad player" because that is definitely not what I'm trying to say or infer, it is only meant to point out that there are many differences between the servers and players and what works for someone on 1 server won't work for someone else on another server, or even on the same server due to many different factors.

People massively overlook skill/knowledge difference on servers.

I started on Xbox EU and moved to NA. The difference is night and day. I know Adam Lad plays EU (who is one of the top mag sorcs on the server) and I think he plays NA so can probably comment.

For whatever reason, EU is a lot harder to run around solo. I find there to be overall a better quality of player.

When I first moved, I was like 300cp and using battlefield acrobat and fury I think. Because I was broke. And I was having decent success in open world, running solo on a NB. Good players stomped me of course, but overall I could hang on the server. That flat out wouldn't cut it on EU. I wouldn't kill 5% of the population there.

I think partly that's due to way lower population on EU, so the players that PvP has retained for the most part are ones more invested in it, so know how to build for and play better. You get less people who are trying it or don't play as much.

Even for less skilled players, there's even a dude on EP that tells the entire faction sets to use. So even if they aren't that good, they know what sets carry.

Are there good and bad players on both? Or course. Plenty of people on NA that are ridiculously good, and EU has some awful players. But overall, there's a big gap in level of opponent.

So it'll be the same with other platforms and regions.

Most build videos I see are PC NA and they often make me laugh a bit, because there's no way you could get away with those builds in the PvP I play. They either don't have the damage I know you need, or have no resistance so will get eaten alive by the damage being pumped out by most players, or have no sustain which won't cut it as fights don't end that quick.

And often in the videos, I can't work out what the enemies are doing. They don't heal, buff or put pressure on. PvP doesn't look like that to me. I come across those players for sure, but not 6 of them at a time.

I'm not calling people or servers out. Like I said, there's reason that quality changes. PC has the biggest player base, so with that comes even more casuals. But my experience has shown me that quality does change.

Anyway, to make my post relevant to the topic, some of they builds/way to play sorc that I see mentioned, won't last two seconds in the PvP I know. They'll kill very little and die very quick.

Do you realize that console meta is like several patches behind PC? 4-5 months ago there was an influx of console transfers on PC NA and people were literally using sets that nobody runs on PC because there are better options.

The average pug on PC maybe worse, but the top tier players on PC definitely have better builds.

Nah, it's not. How would it be?

It's two weeks behind, because pc gets it two weeks earlier...

If people where moving to PC, they played the game enough to know what's going on. So I doubt they were using sets from patches ago.

Because one, some reason many people on console refuse to run certain sets because it's "cheese", even though the set is clearly a better option than what they have. And two, people on console just don't try new things. Why do stamsorcs on console still run Dizzying Swing when Bow sorc/ranged sorc/DW sorc are much better?

Where are you getting that from? I see nothing BUT cheese. Nobody on Xbox is running daedric trickery on their sorc. Everyone's running the meta sets.

You have less of a player base, so those who stuck with PvP are interested so will look into it more. Find out what they need.

Everyone I know who plays PvP, looks at patch notes and comment on what looks meta, what they'll be farming and running etc.

Don't know why you think every sorc is running dizzying? I rarely come across it.

I don't even come across many sorcs in all honesty. Everyone is DK or NB, fair amount of bomb necros, wardens and healing templars and then a sprinkling of sorcs, all-round templars and like 3 normal necros.

I got it from console transfers. But that was months ago. The meta probably settled down now

StaticWave

Brrrofski wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

AdamLAD wrote: »

There's 5 people on my server that I'd consider TOP and I don't mean just good mean beyond phenomenal. Entire zergs day in and day out just straight up struggle to fight them consistently and can survive for a long time upawrd of 30 mins whilst taking people out. Some zerg leaders have even told these players we don't even want to fight you. I've played alongside 4 of them. One of them plays numerous classes and asked me for a build for mag sorc. I give him a few options. He also tried his own. He just straight-up said its absolutely terrible how bad mag sorc is compared to other classes.

Not just that I've had numerous casual players message me saying how on earth are you even doing anything on mag sorcerer using shields.

Across the board the class is terrible. Like I stated previously normally there's a huge divide in opinion when it comes to balance, when it comes to casual players and top players. But from top to bottom and everything in between all I can see if people agreeing the class is truly awful.

I still don't understand why you want buffs to shield stacking.

Because nobody uses shields. Because they're crap. An iconic way of playing PvP in this game is miles behind now.

You're not using them. I'm not using them. Nobody is. So why do you think they don't need a rework?

I think they need a cost reduction, but not a complete rework. Shields are still good

Jsmalls

StaticWave wrote: »

Like when I'm theorycrafting a build and I look at my stammagsorc (that's what I call my hybrid sorc), I think "Oh, I have a lot of HoTs, but I don't have a burst heal, so I'm gonna build for more HP so that I don't get bursted down as easily". I'm fixing my weakness, even if it's a bandaid fix.

So when I look at magsorc I think "Oh, magsorc can summon a lot of temporary HP to prevent getting bursted, but it has no healing, so I better slot some heals!" You know what I'd do if I was a magsorc? I'd slot some heals lol.

Vigor + Surge literally fixes a magsorc's weakness. You don't need to shield stack if you can get back to full HP easily. Why don't many magsorcs do that? @MetallicMonk is doing that and he slaps people with it. You don't see him complain too much about magsorc now does he?

@StaticWave

I think it's about gives and takes, and for some vigor isn't worth what will have to be adjusted to run it. I can tell you personally why I won't run vigor:

Bar space:
FB:Curse, magelight, frag, crushing weapon, streak
BB: Hardened, dark conversion, surge, bound aegis, boundless

There are two options to get rid of there, magelight and bound aegis. Magelight increases my damage by increasing my max stat, gives me more damage from increased crit chance, and gives me more healing from surge. So that's not worth the replacement for ME. Bound aegis gives me minor resolve on back bar, minor protection on use, 40% block mitigation on use if I'm turtling, and makes my hardened ward 8% stronger (technically 13% if we're counting minor protection). So that's not worth the replacement for ME.

Stamina sustain:

I'm personally using a stamina spammable, dark conversion to help sustain Magicka and extra heal, and I need to roll dodge a fair amount as well. Adding a stamina heal to that mix would require a significant amount of stamina recovery or I would have to change my spammable. Both of those options significantly decrease damage output. So that's not worth the replacement for ME. (And if I were to run spell crit pots to replace magelight in the first section, I'd have even less stamina sustain).

Scaling:

We all know the dilemma of a damage shield MagSorc. Weapon/spell damage has more modifiers and better raw stats than max stat builds, but if you're going to use the main defense of a Mag Sorc you better have 45-55k Magicka. That's going to hurt your scaling for an ability like vigor. Additionally MagSorcs have no increased healing passives, no in class access to major or minor healing buffs, etc. This all hurts vigors bottom line, and makes it less useful to run compared to other classes.

But at the end of the day I'm not asking for a burst heal. I personally wouldn't slot it unless it came with other buffs. My defense isn't "awful" and I survive through a lot with my hardened ward (which is getting buffed next patch).

What I would like considered is the ease of avoidance of most of a MagSorcs damage, clearly telegraphed, clunky and slow projectiles with extremely wide dodge and block windows (I am not asking for easy damage, what I'm asking for is damage that isn't fundamentally countered by so many things).

The unreliability of it's execute, the actual mechanics and performance of it's execute. Does anyone even slot this ability outside of kill stealing? That's bar space, gcds doing no damage, and more telegraphing.

The uselessness of so much of our class abilities.
Mines? Gutted.
Rune? Useless
Pets? Laughable
AoE Dot? Has no place or morph for PvP
Boundless/Hurricane? Undertuned, if it wasn't one of the only ways to get major resolve (a passive NBs get from just using other abilities) it wouldn't be on bars.

ForumBully

I want to see shields and shield stacking made more viable again because it's fun, active defense. There's an order to casting and decisions to make about how many GCDs you want to spend casting on a defensive rotation depending on how much incoming damage you need to mitigate.
I wouldn't mind seeing more shields with different benefits as well, to add more diversity to what different shields provide.
We needed to make good use of First On First Off casting to get the benefit of a shield with an effect, like healing ward.
Shields are hands down the most active defense in the game, so I'd like them kept alive

VixxVexx

Building into Max Health on sorc specifically seems smarter.

• Armor can be seen as effective health anyway.
• Damage Shields
• With passive multipliers like Expert Summoner and Heavy Armor, it's easier to stack health.
• Dark Magic heal also scales with Max Health
• Max Health also means less overhealing so improved effective healing.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure Static's max resistances are higher than what is displayed. (backbar, vigor, etc.)

IMO 40k hp, while understandable is pretty unethical. But my opinion is *** regardless.

StaticWave

Jsmalls wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Like when I'm theorycrafting a build and I look at my stammagsorc (that's what I call my hybrid sorc), I think "Oh, I have a lot of HoTs, but I don't have a burst heal, so I'm gonna build for more HP so that I don't get bursted down as easily". I'm fixing my weakness, even if it's a bandaid fix.

So when I look at magsorc I think "Oh, magsorc can summon a lot of temporary HP to prevent getting bursted, but it has no healing, so I better slot some heals!" You know what I'd do if I was a magsorc? I'd slot some heals lol.

Vigor + Surge literally fixes a magsorc's weakness. You don't need to shield stack if you can get back to full HP easily. Why don't many magsorcs do that? @MetallicMonk is doing that and he slaps people with it. You don't see him complain too much about magsorc now does he?

@StaticWave

I think it's about gives and takes, and for some vigor isn't worth what will have to be adjusted to run it. I can tell you personally why I won't run vigor:

Bar space:
FB:Curse, magelight, frag, crushing weapon, streak
BB: Hardened, dark conversion, surge, bound aegis, boundless

There are two options to get rid of there, magelight and bound aegis. Magelight increases my damage by increasing my max stat, gives me more damage from increased crit chance, and gives me more healing from surge. So that's not worth the replacement for ME. Bound aegis gives me minor resolve on back bar, minor protection on use, 40% block mitigation on use if I'm turtling, and makes my hardened ward 8% stronger (technically 13% if we're counting minor protection). So that's not worth the replacement for ME.

Stamina sustain:

I'm personally using a stamina spammable, dark conversion to help sustain Magicka and extra heal, and I need to roll dodge a fair amount as well. Adding a stamina heal to that mix would require a significant amount of stamina recovery or I would have to change my spammable. Both of those options significantly decrease damage output. So that's not worth the replacement for ME. (And if I were to run spell crit pots to replace magelight in the first section, I'd have even less stamina sustain).

Scaling:

We all know the dilemma of a damage shield MagSorc. Weapon/spell damage has more modifiers and better raw stats than max stat builds, but if you're going to use the main defense of a Mag Sorc you better have 45-55k Magicka. That's going to hurt your scaling for an ability like vigor. Additionally MagSorcs have no increased healing passives, no in class access to major or minor healing buffs, etc. This all hurts vigors bottom line, and makes it less useful to run compared to other classes.

But at the end of the day I'm not asking for a burst heal. I personally wouldn't slot it unless it came with other buffs. My defense isn't "awful" and I survive through a lot with my hardened ward (which is getting buffed next patch).

What I would like considered is the ease of avoidance of most of a MagSorcs damage, clearly telegraphed, clunky and slow projectiles with extremely wide dodge and block windows (I am not asking for easy damage, what I'm asking for is damage that isn't fundamentally countered by so many things).

The unreliability of it's execute, the actual mechanics and performance of it's execute. Does anyone even slot this ability outside of kill stealing? That's bar space, gcds doing no damage, and more telegraphing.

The uselessness of so much of our class abilities.
Mines? Gutted.
Rune? Useless
Pets? Laughable
AoE Dot? Has no place or morph for PvP
Boundless/Hurricane? Undertuned, if it wasn't one of the only ways to get major resolve (a passive NBs get from just using other abilities) it wouldn't be on bars.

You can use Chudan to free up a bar slot and run Vigor. Only thing you’re sacrificing is a monster set and a 4 second Major Expedition, but you’re gaining 3k armor from Minor Resolve, Major Resolve at all times which saves a GCD every 30 seconds, and a strong HoT. I’d say that’s a darn good trade. But if you block a lot then I can see why Bound Aegis is too good to drop.

I understand the delay of burst delivery that magsorcs have to endure. But here’s the important point many of you conveniently forget to mention:

Your burst deals a lot of damage, and bursts that deal a lot of damage usually need some form of counterplay

That counterplay comes in the form of a slow projectile and telegraphed delayed burst. Every class’s burst combo is telegraphed in this aspect to provide counterplay.

When you ask for them to be faster, you’re basically asking for the counterplays to be reduced. That’s not fair, especially when sorc’s burst deals respectable damage.

Do I need to go into details how the only counterplay for Curse is a cleanse that only 2 classes have access to for a cheap cost? Or the fact that Frag is Dizzying Swing on steroids and can randomly proc back to back? Or Bound Arms that can deal 2k-2.5k x 4 for a total of 8-10k damage and replenishes as easily as landing light attacks?

Look, you guys exaggerate the issue too much. Every single class suffers from this, and it’s there for a good reason. Sub Assault and Blastbones + Dizzying Swing are even more telegraphed. Noxious + Venom + Whip are also telegraphed. PL + Topple + Jab are telegraphed, etc. I could go on forever.

This is not a sorc only issue. In fact, it’s actually not an issue, because that’s how you limit the lethality of burst. Without it, you’d be blowing up people before they can even react. It’s not healthy, at all.

StaticWave

Brrrofski wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

AdamLAD wrote: »

There's 5 people on my server that I'd consider TOP and I don't mean just good mean beyond phenomenal. Entire zergs day in and day out just straight up struggle to fight them consistently and can survive for a long time upawrd of 30 mins whilst taking people out. Some zerg leaders have even told these players we don't even want to fight you. I've played alongside 4 of them. One of them plays numerous classes and asked me for a build for mag sorc. I give him a few options. He also tried his own. He just straight-up said its absolutely terrible how bad mag sorc is compared to other classes.

Not just that I've had numerous casual players message me saying how on earth are you even doing anything on mag sorcerer using shields.

Across the board the class is terrible. Like I stated previously normally there's a huge divide in opinion when it comes to balance, when it comes to casual players and top players. But from top to bottom and everything in between all I can see if people agreeing the class is truly awful.

I still don't understand why you want buffs to shield stacking.

Because nobody uses shields. Because they're crap. An iconic way of playing PvP in this game is miles behind now.

You're not using them. I'm not using them. Nobody is. So why do you think they don't need a rework?

I do in fact use Absorbed Missile on my 40k HP stamsorc on the live server. It gives me a 5k shield + 2.5k heal with Battle Spirits. I will slot Hardened Ward next patch to get a 10k shield.

You see, I don’t use shields as my main defense. I use it when I want a cushion to eat DoTs and let my HoTs heal me up. My main defense is HoTs and blocking/dodging, aka being a stamina player.

For this reason, I think shields are fine. Obviously magsorcs who rely completely on shields will think they are weak because they literally have zero heals. Idk why they refuse to slot a heal tbh. It’s not 2015 anymore.

StaticWave

VixxVexx wrote: »

Building into Max Health on sorc specifically seems smarter.

• Armor can be seen as effective health anyway.
• Damage Shields
• With passive multipliers like Expert Summoner and Heavy Armor, it's easier to stack health.
• Dark Magic heal also scales with Max Health
• Max Health also means less overhealing so improved effective healing.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure Static's max resistances are higher than what is displayed. (backbar, vigor, etc.)

IMO 40k hp, while understandable is pretty unethical. But my opinion is *** regardless.

Yes, my back bar armor is 26k fully buffed (I run Sword and Shield), all while having 40k HP, 35k+ stam, 20k pen, an effective 6k weapon damage, and >1.8k effective regen.

But people are quick to shut the build down when a simple build editor can replicate it easily lol. Build editors, while not 100% accurate, are still 99% accurate. I’ve yet to see a build be more than 2% different on the editor compared to the game version.

Jsmalls

StaticWave wrote: »

I understand the delay of burst delivery that magsorcs have to endure. But here’s the important point many of you conveniently forget to mention:

Your burst deals a lot of damage, and bursts that deal a lot of damage usually need some form of counterplay

That counterplay comes in the form of a slow projectile and telegraphed delayed burst. Every class’s burst combo is telegraphed in this aspect to provide counterplay.

When you ask for them to be faster, you’re basically asking for the counterplays to be reduced. That’s not fair, especially when sorc’s burst deals respectable damage.

Do I need to go into details how the only counterplay for Curse is a cleanse that only 2 classes have access to for a cheap cost? Or the fact that Frag is Dizzying Swing on steroids and can randomly proc back to back? Or Bound Arms that can deal 2k-2.5k x 4 for a total of 8-10k damage and replenishes as easily as landing light attacks?

Look, you guys exaggerate the issue too much. Every single class suffers from this, and it’s there for a good reason. Sub Assault and Blastbones + Dizzying Swing are even more telegraphed. Noxious + Venom + Whip are also telegraphed. PL + Topple + Jab are telegraphed, etc. I could go on forever.

This is not a sorc only issue. In fact, it’s actually not an issue, because that’s how you limit the lethality of burst. Without it, you’d be blowing up people before they can even react. It’s not healthy, at all.

@StaticWave
So I'd argue that roll dodge is the universal counter to "curse" in the sense that it dodges everything that comes along with it. And some classes even have a counter to the one ability in our kit that's suppose to be reliable. Curse itself will deal what 4k - 10k damage? It's not doing anything on its own. Spammable will be a projectile, frag is a projectile, overload is a projectile, our execute is a projectile.

The entire kit is dodgeable. The time frame window for a Dodge on a frag is insane. The character model can be standing up when the frag is thrown and still miss (this is with the consideration of lag).

Also the clunkiness of a proc'd frag is meh, the only luck I have with animation cancelling the frag proc is dodge rolling which burns your next gcd. Otherwise following up a frag is not smooth.

So it's things like these that I would love to have considered....

StaticWave

You know what? I'm going just going to break down the build here because apparently people think it doesn't have the stats to compete on other servers. I'll show them why they're wrong.

Weapons:
Staff + SnB (Yes, I brawl as a ranged stamsorc because weaving Crystal Weapon with a staff is so much better)

Sets:
2 heavy, 3 medium, 3 light
5x Essence Thief front bar
5x Trickery back bar
2x Engine Guardian
1x Trainee
1x Death Dealer's Fete

Self-buffed stats front bar:


Self-buffed stats back bar:


So let's look at the important front bar stats first:

HP: 36k
Stam: 38.5k
Mag: 22.6k
Crit rate: 31.5%
Crit dmg: 64%
Weapon dmg: 4.4k
Pen: 8.6k pen
Spell and Physical resist: 23.3k and 21.9k
Crit resist: 2082
Mag and stam recovery: 760 and 832

Since back bar is mainly for defense, I'll just look at the important stats for that:

HP: 36K
Spell and Physical resist: 26.7k and 25.3k
Crit resist: 2082
Mag and stam recovery: 760 and 729

From these stats you can see that I have a decent amount of resistance, a high HP pool, a super high max stam, good crit rate, good pen, and good crit resist. Crit damage can be improved with a race change, but it's good enough. Since most stamina players who stack max weapon damage usually play with 20k-25k stam (due to using Bear Haunch), I'm going to gain an equivalent of 1.3k-1.8k weapon damage if I convert my max stam to weapon damage. That's 4.4k + 1.3k = 5.7k weapon damage at the low end and 4.4k + 1.8k = 6.2k weapon damage at the high end.

Now these are just the stats you can see. The other stats you can't see are hidden within the sets. You see, Essence Thief is a really stat-dense set that works perfectly with stamsorc. This is due to several reasons:

1) Stamsorc is one of the few classes that can easily pick it up due to having high mobility and Streak
2) It gives you 4.3k stam WHILE BLOCKING. This is very, very important because blocking is a fundamental mechanic of a brawler stamsorc. Since blocking cuts off your stam regen and stamsorc's only sustain is also a channel, this set allows you to block more and not need to use Dark Deal or let off block as often.
3) It allows you to play with sub 1k regen, giving you the option to build as much into damage and max HP as possible.

Essence Thief's 10% damage done is equivalent to about 550 weapon damage after accounting for all modifiers. The 4.3k stam, if kept at 100% uptime, is about 800 effective recovery. The healing is also a nice bonus. In a real fight, my uptime is about 80-85%, so that's not too bad.

Add these hidden stats to the above stats, and you get an effective 5.7k + 550 = 6.3k weapon damage at the low end and 6.2k + 550 = 6.7k weapon damage at the high end. Also add Major + Minor Breach + Cwep pen to get a total of 18.5k pen. Add Minor Berserk too because I have Camo hunter. All while having a 38.5k stam pool, 36k max HP, and 26k resist back bar.


That's just with 1 set. Daedric Trickery is what makes the build. I REFUSE to take it off for these reasons:

1) It gives Major Mending + Vitality, 2 of the most important healing buffs for a stamsorc because most of your heals don't scale with weapon damage, leaving these buffs the only thing that can increase them ( and crit healing but this is not a crit build)
2) It gives Major Protection, a very important buff to help you take less damage
3) It gives you Major Heroism, a very important buff to help you get Spell Wall more often
4) I don't have a source of Major Expedition, so this buff is not redundant and will be of full use

I can get all the buffs that I need from 1 set. Even if they are random, it doesn't really matter because all of them benefit me defensively. Getting Major Protection instead of Mending will still give me a lot of mitigation, and getting Mending instead of Protection will still give me a lot of healing. The best thing about it though is when you get 2-3 separate buffs. I've had instances where Major Mending, Vitality, and Protection were present and I was getting almost 4.5k Crit Surge heals without keep healing buff lol.

Let's not forget Engine Guardian. A lot of people hate this set because of how cheese it is, but it's literally a life saver. I can't count how many times the engine proc has eaten a Meteor or an Incap and saved me from death. The sustain is also perfect and combined with Energy Overload + Essence Thief, I can casually chill in 800 regen and STILL OVER SUSTAIN. In fact, sometimes i don't even use sustain pots at all and use Spell + Physical resist pots, giving me another 5k armor to bring my total armor up to 31k spell and 30k resist.

I've had many fights where I'm tanking several average DKs, or kite a 12 man group for 5+ minutes. They all try to throw everything at me with their stuns, DoTs, bursts, etc. but i still live. I have yet to see another build that can perform the same feat except for Mara's Balm, but we all know it's an exception and exceptions don't really matter that much when it comes to theory crafting. Theory crafting is about finding what's BiS for your playstyle, and this build has done that for me.

StaticWave

So the next time someone tries to shut this build down, please give me an example of a build that is not Mara's Balm. I am 100% confident you cannot find one better than this one for the class. You can prove me wrong, but i doubt you will be able to, especially if you're on console. Good luck theorycrafting and crunching numbers without addons lmao

StaticWave

Jsmalls wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I understand the delay of burst delivery that magsorcs have to endure. But here’s the important point many of you conveniently forget to mention:

Your burst deals a lot of damage, and bursts that deal a lot of damage usually need some form of counterplay

That counterplay comes in the form of a slow projectile and telegraphed delayed burst. Every class’s burst combo is telegraphed in this aspect to provide counterplay.

When you ask for them to be faster, you’re basically asking for the counterplays to be reduced. That’s not fair, especially when sorc’s burst deals respectable damage.

Do I need to go into details how the only counterplay for Curse is a cleanse that only 2 classes have access to for a cheap cost? Or the fact that Frag is Dizzying Swing on steroids and can randomly proc back to back? Or Bound Arms that can deal 2k-2.5k x 4 for a total of 8-10k damage and replenishes as easily as landing light attacks?

Look, you guys exaggerate the issue too much. Every single class suffers from this, and it’s there for a good reason. Sub Assault and Blastbones + Dizzying Swing are even more telegraphed. Noxious + Venom + Whip are also telegraphed. PL + Topple + Jab are telegraphed, etc. I could go on forever.

This is not a sorc only issue. In fact, it’s actually not an issue, because that’s how you limit the lethality of burst. Without it, you’d be blowing up people before they can even react. It’s not healthy, at all.

@StaticWave
So I'd argue that roll dodge is the universal counter to "curse" in the sense that it dodges everything that comes along with it. And some classes even have a counter to the one ability in our kit that's suppose to be reliable. Curse itself will deal what 4k - 10k damage? It's not doing anything on its own. Spammable will be a projectile, frag is a projectile, overload is a projectile, our execute is a projectile.

The entire kit is dodgeable. The time frame window for a Dodge on a frag is insane. The character model can be standing up when the frag is thrown and still miss (this is with the consideration of lag).

Also the clunkiness of a proc'd frag is meh, the only luck I have with animation cancelling the frag proc is dodge rolling which burns your next gcd. Otherwise following up a frag is not smooth.

So it's things like these that I would love to have considered....

It's not a universal counter to Curse because you still take damage from Curse while rolling. What comes after Curse doesn't matter because everyone expects follow-up damage after casting a delayed burst and will try to avoid it. The only thing that matters is whether you're taking damage from the delayed burst or not. Curse and Purifying Light are the only abilities that require a cleanse as a counter. Not many classes have that. Efficient Purge is an option, but it's costly and, quite ironically, not efficient as a solo cleanse.

That argument isn't strong because every class has the same issue. What makes your Sorc so different that you need its burst to have less counter than other classes?

Dodging will counter many things in the game. Some classes suffer more than others, but they have advantages that other classes do not have. DK and Plar have AoEs and DoTs that can't be dodged, but most, if not all of them are melee and require them to be within range. Warden and Necro have delayed bursts that can't be dodged, but their other damage are single target and dodgable. NB and Sorc's damage are dodgable, but to compensate for that, they have really high burst damage that can also be used at range. A NB can easily crit someone for a 15k bow proc, and a sorc can also crit someone for a 10k frag + 8k curse, not to mention Bound Arms if it decides to use it as well. But in return, they're easier to avoid. That's the trade off for having so much single target damage.

If you want your burst to do better against dodge, then expect your class to receive nerfs to burst damage. Otherwise, the class would be imbalanced and not fair to fight against.

PhoenixGrey

StaticWave wrote: »

AdamLAD wrote: »

There's 5 people on my server that I'd consider TOP and I don't mean just good mean beyond phenomenal. Entire zergs day in and day out just straight up struggle to fight them consistently and can survive for a long time upawrd of 30 mins whilst taking people out. Some zerg leaders have even told these players we don't even want to fight you. I've played alongside 4 of them. One of them plays numerous classes and asked me for a build for mag sorc. I give him a few options. He also tried his own. He just straight-up said its absolutely terrible how bad mag sorc is compared to other classes.

Not just that I've had numerous casual players message me saying how on earth are you even doing anything on mag sorcerer using shields.

Across the board the class is terrible. Like I stated previously normally there's a huge divide in opinion when it comes to balance, when it comes to casual players and top players. But from top to bottom and everything in between all I can see if people agreeing the class is truly awful.

I still don't understand why you want buffs to shield stacking.

Because mag sorc without shields is bang average.

I know for a fact that a lot of OG sorcs have left the game on PC NA and EU for this reason. You know exactly the players I am talking about.

You could make literally any class look good in a duel.

Scalable defense is literally the only thing that matters to me. Other classes have multiple options and sorc has none

Our expectations of the class are just different from a lot of folks.

gariondavey

Good write up @StaticWave

acastanza_ESO

Bunch of builds that say nothing at all about relative performance to other classes which is the fundamental issue here that this is doing nothing but obfuscating .
Any other class could put together that same gear and I guarantee run it better.

PhoenixGrey

StaticWave wrote: »

If you want your burst to do better against dodge, then expect your class to receive nerfs to burst damage. Otherwise, the class would be imbalanced and not fair to fight against.

There are a lot of posts and threads we make on each class skill i think is imbalanced. Any balance change which comes at the cost of losing PVP players and subsequently losing the fun factor in a class is not worth it

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

Bunch of builds that say nothing at all about relative performance to other classes which is the fundamental issue here that this is doing nothing but obfuscating .
Any other class could put together that same gear and I guarantee run it better.

Yup. There are so many classes out there which make better use of rallying cry and mara's balm.

Jsmalls

@StaticWave

You literally said it yourself, some classes have options to play away from projectiles, THATS the argument.

Templars- Puncturing sweep, Radiant, purifying light, Ulti crescent sweep
DKs- whip, breath, AoEs, Ulti Leap
NB- concealed weapon, killers blade, Ulti incap
Etc etc
All non-projectile

Sorc- curse and crystal weapons IF you use a melee weapon (MagSorcs generally don't).

You aren't hitting any decently geared player for 18k between curse and frag. Not in this meta.

I hit a DK with a 4200 curse the other day.

That's 54k Magicka, 4k spell damage, and 13k penetration.

He wasn't a tank DK that does no damage, just a normal decent player.

I'd be LUCKY to hit him for 12-14k if both crit. Leaving another 20k + health to go through with no quick follow-up (another 3.5 seconds for curse and rng of a frag proc). So where's all that high damage burst for successfully landing this easy to avoid damage?

The reliability of a melee ability far out weighs the "range" of a range ability with all the mobility and gap closers that exist in this game. (This is for outside Xv1ing someone, who cares about the balance of that).

StaticWave

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

Bunch of builds that say nothing at all about relative performance to other classes which is the fundamental issue here that this is doing nothing but obfuscating .
Any other class could put together that same gear and I guarantee run it better.

No, they actually do. Some builds excel on one class and doesn't on another. You can't just ignore builds and only talk about class balance. They come in pairs.

Let me repeat - I am advocating for sorc buffs. I have always done that in various forum posts. I am also against over buffing the class, and this is where you and many people don't understand.

A good buff thread recognizes the strengths and weaknesses of a class and gives suggestions to fix the weaknesses. A bad buff thread looks like a straight up complaint and makes the class sound worse than it really is. Most sorc buff threads fall under the latter category.

People are literally complaining so much about Sorc having no damage, sorc having bad defense, etc. all while not understanding why the class needs to be the way it is, and then asking for buffs to remove any drawbacks that are clearly needed to keep the class in check. I'm sorry, but I don't side with these threads.

StaticWave

Jsmalls wrote: »

@StaticWave

You literally said it yourself, some classes have options to play away from projectiles, THATS the argument.

Templars- Puncturing sweep, Radiant, purifying light, Ulti crescent sweep
DKs- whip, breath, AoEs, Ulti Leap
NB- concealed weapon, killers blade, Ulti incap
Etc etc
All non-projectile

Sorc- curse and crystal weapons IF you use a melee weapon (MagSorcs generally don't).

You aren't hitting any decently geared player for 18k between curse and frag. Not in this meta.

I hit a DK with a 4200 curse the other day.

That's 54k Magicka, 4k spell damage, and 13k penetration.

He wasn't a tank DK that does no damage, just a normal decent player.

I'd be LUCKY to hit him for 12-14k if both crit. Leaving another 20k + health to go through with no quick follow-up (another 3.5 seconds for curse and rng of a frag proc). So where's all that high damage burst for successfully landing this easy to avoid damage?

The reliability of a melee ability far out weighs the "range" of a range ability with all the mobility and gap closers that exist in this game. (This is for outside Xv1ing someone, who cares about the balance of that).

Okay first of all, you can play melee with ranged builds. You just need to be in melee range and the projectiles basically have zero travel time. I brawl on a ranged sorc and I don't have issues with this. Sorcs have options to go melee. You just refuse to go that route. Here let me give you an example of a melee sorc build:



I run this on my melee sorc. Swap out Cwep for CFrag, Caltrops for Ele Sus and you get a magsorc version. So please don't tell me you have no melee skills when there are in fact melee skills but you refuse to slot them for your argument.

Second of all, you obviously don't know the struggle of melee if you think it's better. Try fighting a fast player as melee and you will understand our struggle. As soon as I move out of your 5 meter range, all your attacks stop connecting and your character freezes up. Don't believe me? Try doing that against someone with near speed cap lol.

I use this to my advantage fighting melee players as a stamsorc. That's one of the strategy to survive. I move so fast I'm always out of melee range before their attacks connect. Stamplars hate dueling me because they can never connect their jabs.

Don't forget melee attacks are also dodgable and suffer the same issue. So please, tell me, a melee dominant player, why melee is better lol..

@MetallicMonk, a top tier magsorc, is hitting decent players for 10k frags and 8k crit curses. You should perhaps ask him what build he's using.

StaticWave

Oh btw, these are the stats for the aboved build if I decide to put 64 points into max HP:



45k HP and still above 30k max stam lol.. Basically traded 800 effective weapon damage to get 9k max HP. Slot Clever Alch back bar and I get all of that damage back plus more HP.

AdamLAD

Static have you actually ever played a pure magicka sorcerer? And I don't just mean for a little bit. Just curious

Jsmalls

StaticWave wrote: »

Okay first of all, you can play melee with ranged builds. You just need to be in melee range and the projectiles basically have zero travel time. I brawl on a ranged sorc and I don't have issues with this. Sorcs have options to go melee. You just refuse to go that route. Here let me give you an example of a melee sorc build:



I run this on my melee sorc. Swap out Cwep for CFrag, Caltrops for Ele Sus and you get a magsorc version. So please don't tell me you have no melee skills when there are in fact melee skills but you refuse to slot them for your argument.

Second of all, you obviously don't know the struggle of melee if you think it's better. Try fighting a fast player as melee and you will understand our struggle. As soon as I move out of your 5 meter range, all your attacks stop connecting and your character freezes up. Don't believe me? Try doing that against someone with near speed cap lol.

I use this to my advantage fighting melee players as a stamsorc. That's one of the strategy to survive. I move so fast I'm always out of melee range before their attacks connect. Stamplars hate dueling me because they can never connect their jabs.

Don't forget melee attacks are also dodgable and suffer the same issue. So please, tell me, a melee dominant player, why melee is better lol..

@MetallicMonk, a top tier magsorc, is hitting decent players for 10k frags and 8k crit curses. You should perhaps ask him what build he's using.

Are you unaware of the forced minimum travel time attached to projectiles? Whether I'm 28 meters or 5 meters isn't going to make much of a difference... Just because you see one flying through the air and one not doesn't mean it's faster Lmao. That's why I don't have issues applying crushing weapons to a light attack I launched within 5 meters of my opponent, because of the minimum travel time.

I guess you're also unaware that projectiles and melee abilities have different dodge windows?

I get it you play a melee character. Which is why you THINK it's harder lol. (Same can be said about me, I play ranged so I have a bias towards that).

But what do you see more often as a competitive class? A projectile build or a melee build?

When I'm 1vXing I'm having a WAY harder time when I have 3 people in my face with melee, versus 3 people at range. I can guarantee you can say the same. Projectile builds are just more easily countered than melee builds.

Honestly I don't want to play vampire in a meta where DKs are dominant. I've used the vamp melee before and it's nice, it's fluid to use, and it feels more consistent. But I'm not okay with the drawbacks.

Sure you can call that refusing to choose the melee ability, but even if I chose that one ability, frag and overload light attacks are still projectiles. I still can't fully get away from a projectile playstyle as a MagSorc.

StaticWave

AdamLAD wrote: »

Static have you actually ever played a pure magicka sorcerer? And I don't just mean for a little bit. Just curious

I have. I mained it for a year before swapping to stam. Went back to it 4 years later just for fun, and currently doing a hybrid stamsorc.

I played magsorc during the shield stacking era where Pirate Skeleton was 30% mitigation and worked on shields. It was very strong. I actually chose that spec because watching SypherPK slap people with it gave me inspiration.

StaticWave

@AdamLAD You can find me in this clip:

https://youtu.be/oeBxlh8KZao

I was doing a 4v4 against a top tier small scale guild on PC NA 5 years ago. You could see my magsorc in the video under the name Static Wave.

So yes, I’ve played and mained a pure magsorc for quite a while before transitioning to stam. I didn’t transition to stamsorc because it’s better (it was worse than magsorc). I did it because I prefer playing stam more.

I think I know enough about sorc as a class to give my input here. You guys don’t have to agree with me, but if you’re gonna doubt my credibility, just ask any OG PC players and they know who I am lol