Do Sorcerers Complain too much?

Ecgberht_confused

The 8.3.0 patch notes were released and included (technically) a couple of sorc buffs, yet the pts forum soon sprung up with many threads of sorcs complaining about them, perhaps more so than Templars and Necros who actually received nerfs in the same patch notes.

To an outside observer it would seem that sorcerers are just complaining too much. I'm here to argue that we're NOT, and perhaps elaborate on the reasons behind this, perhaps elevated, sense of objection.

The main reason is that the direction of the buffs betrays the feedback sorcs have been trying to relay for years. The issue centers around the fact that Sorcs have the strongest shields but the weakest self healing in the game. While some sorcs may enjoy this playstyle, a lot of us are not and are asking to at least be given the choice between shields and healing. Shields are pre-emptive, you keep them up and it effectively increases your hp, but they're less forgiving. If you're caught with them down (especially because they're super expensive and your're supposed to have 100% uptime on them) they're less forgiving, you can't heal and recover from that, even if you managed to get away. Healing on the other hand is reactive. If things go bad you get away and heal, but no need to have them 100% of the time. The most important difference though is that sorc shields scale with max Mag (and now also with max hp) whereas most healing in the game scales with both max resource and W/S damage. This allows classes to boost their healing while increasing their damage. A sorc relying on shields doesn't have this luxury: you increase your shields AT THE EXPENSE of your damage. Even the mediocre heals sorc has access to are either flat amounts or scale with hp (crit surge, dark exchange, blood magic passive).

This is not the only recurrent complain about the current sorc kit, but it was one that has been very commonly made and is completely ignored by the direction this patch is heading. To me, the fact that shields were buffed further this patch without addressing healing means one of two things:

1. ZOS is not yet aware of this complain.
2. ZOS is well aware but the Devs are doubling down on their decision: there's only one way to play sorc and that's of a max mag/hp ward wielding. They're not supposed to heal or invest in W/S damage if they want to survive.

That's why there's too many threads of us complaining about what is technically a buff. @ZOS_Kevin it would really help if we can get an acknowlegment from the devs about which of these 2 is the reality. If it's the former then we can keep interacting with feedback until we're heard. If it's the later then at least it's good to know, and I personally would try to set up my NB as I would play a sorc, until the arcanist is released and hopefully these drawbacks would be absent there.

PS. I've written this from a magsorc pvp perspective. Of course we can use vigor, and we do, but as a magicka class this puts us at a serious disadvantage.

ForumBully

There's a lot that would technically be a buff, not everything is useful simply because it's a positive change. What's frustrating is post after post after post of suggestions that result in something totally different than all the suggestions that would be actually beneficial...add that to zero complaints about DK damage resulting in a Major damage buff tacked on to the class with the most damage.

This is why people make jokes about buffs and nerfs seeming to come from spinning a wheel or throwing darts...there is an absolute disconnect from the reality of the game, particularly when it comes to PvP. It really is like they don't know what's actually happening in their game.

As for complaints, everyone will want their preferred class stronger, obviously. Players know the legitimate complaints from the unnecessary buff-begging, it's a real shame that ZoS can't seem to tell the difference because, again, it seems like they don't know their game.

AdamLAD

The thing is, people who get destroyed by a sorcerer always complain. "Shields stack" "Streak" or they just simply will not accept the better player beat them or killed them. For some reason, since the dawn of eso sorcerer has been singled out and the populace of eso always say its too strong regardless of anything. They just always say its too strong without any real tangible justifiable reason. This has been on going since release, I've always found that if you can play mag sorc well you can play any class well, keeping wards up and lining up a perfect combination is alot harder than what you have to do on other classes. This point is even more relevant today when people are running around with 40k HP and 6k weapon damage and maxed out resistances and just spam skills and do damage. Sorcerer cannot do that, we have to elegantly do a burst combination that is timed to do any significant damage and that significant damage is getting less and less as time moves on but all other classes who don't need a burst combo are just getting stronger and stronger and stronger as they can use new sets, use all these buffs and modifiers. Sorcerer can't. We are stuck in the past. This is fine so as long as we get buffs to suit the uniqueness of the class.

MetallicMonk

Everyone does with their innate bias about the class they enjoy the most, but as a sorcerer main yes they do. The things people want to do to the class on these forums would make the class absurdly powerful.

Sorc mains are up there with whining the most, probably only being beaten by nightblades in that regard. DK mains are by far the dumbest though, no debate.

WuffyCerulei

We don't complain too much, if not we don't complain enough. Sorcs have been struggling to keep up with the other classes in pvp, who have just been getting tankier AND can deal more damage while we've been stuck with the same tool kit for years. The other classes can just eat through shields, and the halved-shield strength on top of health cap just makes shields weak. PVE, sorc dps, regardless of spec, MUSt use pets to get the max amount of damage. In the past, either pet or non-pet were ver viable. But with all the pushing for pets to be the main source of damage, people don't feel there's really any diversity in builds. While i'm pretty sure the other classes (aside from the templar jabs dilemma) have a variety if builds can do similar amounts of damage. Sorcs who don't want to use pets are forced to pull much less than petsorcs.

ketsparrowhawk

Stormweaver's Cavort mythic was the magic ingredient for me. Defense of a StamSorc with the offense of a MagSorc. Fun stuff. Probably my best build rn.

ketsparrowhawk

The buff to Bloodthirsty is gonna be pretty nasty for sorcs too. Kick on Overload and launch the curse/fury/frags with 630-1050 execute damage starting at 90% hp. Oooh yeah.

UnassumingNoob

Honestly I feel sorcerors are amongst the most entitled of players. There have been very few patches where sorcs don’t dominate.

Saying that… They are not in a good space atm. I think the mist form changes is a huge boon to them. There is zero reason not to buff their kit as currently they are underpowered. Streak was OP as ***. Don’t lie to yourselves. But now everyone can do it. Sorcs should be buffed now

axi

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

The buff to Bloodthirsty is gonna be pretty nasty for sorcs too. Kick on Overload and launch the curse/fury/frags with 630-1050 execute damage starting at 90% hp. Oooh yeah.

They didn't buff bloodthirsty itself they just buffed jewelery of lower than gold qualities to have higher max values so for example white bloodthirsty jewelery which right now on live server have "up to 70 weapon and spell dmg" description will have "up to 210" description and same will go for other qualities except of golden which will be untouched. Scaling for bloodthirsty remains untouched and if someone wears golden jewelery right now there will be zero difference between current live version and U37 version, only lower qualities will notice a change.

Melzo

UnassumingNoob wrote: »

Honestly I feel sorcerors are amongst the most entitled of players. There have been very few patches where sorcs don’t dominate.

Saying that… They are not in a good space atm. I think the mist form changes is a huge boon to them. There is zero reason not to buff their kit as currently they are underpowered. Streak was OP as ***. Don’t lie to yourselves. But now everyone can do it. Sorcs should be buffed now

And how will the sorcerers become weaker from the vampire cloud? You should not be afraid of mist form but the chain at the Dk. There are many skills that allow you to catch up with the sorcerer. I do not see the point of such whining. In the next patch, every DK will use a chain. This is what you should be afraid of.

UnassumingNoob

Melzo wrote: »

UnassumingNoob wrote: »

Honestly I feel sorcerors are amongst the most entitled of players. There have been very few patches where sorcs don’t dominate.

Saying that… They are not in a good space atm. I think the mist form changes is a huge boon to them. There is zero reason not to buff their kit as currently they are underpowered. Streak was OP as ***. Don’t lie to yourselves. But now everyone can do it. Sorcs should be buffed now

And how will the sorcerers become weaker from the vampire cloud? You should not be afraid of mist form but the chain at the Dk. There are many skills that allow you to catch up with the sorcerer. I do not see the point of such whining. In the next patch, every DK will use a chain. This is what you should be afraid of.

Look mist form being changed to a streak is a proxy nerf for sorcs because arguably the strongest tool in their kit became homogenized across the classes. If it was such an amazing feature for sorc(which it was) and is now available to everyone this by default makes sorcs weaker. In essence it is a proxy nerf to sorcs. I’m not scared of sorcs because of mist form. I’m saying that it, in a way (sadly,) levels the playin field and exposes just how weak they are without streak in their kit.

It’s farcical in nature to give DKs a buff.

Turtle_Bot

Most sorc players don't complain that much in general and quite honestly most are actually pretty chill towards receiving nerfs to the class that keeps them in line with the other classes (shields/BoL/frags stun/etc in the past).

The most complaints I see are always from NB mains who still seem to think that its still the Summerset patch and sorcs are the strongest class in the game with no equal and NB are "unplayable" and need even more buffs.

I know that I (and all of my friends who main sorc) held our complaints back for far too long and simply continued to try and make the class work in any way we could until it reached the breaking point of the U35 overnerf.
- Shields got nerfed, no complaints, they were strong, especially when stacked (I still reckon they should have buffed shields and removed stacking as an option, but they wen't the route they chose instead).
- The stun on frags was removed, no complaints, stun on a spammable was strong back then
- Rune cage/defensive rune got nerfed into being unusable, no complaints, fossilize had its range nerfed instead of the delay, so it seemed fair at the time.
- BoL got gutted, no complaints, it was strong and being abused.
- Damage formula got changed which made shields useless unless you completely sacrificed damage, still no complaints.
- Hybridization allowed every other class to easily out burst sorc with much fewer GCD's as well as still being able to play high pressure builds to wear down enemies, yep, still no complaints.
- Power creep in how easy movement speed cap is to reach for every class that allows them to very easily close the gap on an escaping sorc without gap closers, again, still no complaints, that movement was strong and it was nice to see other classes feel the fun, faster playstyle.
- DK abuses a clearly overpowered mythic (oakensoul), yet hardly gets touched and in fact gets buffs, meanwhile sorc "abuses" that same mythic to much less effect or uses a set that is clearly broken and not working as intended (savage werewolf) and gets gutted over it, this was the final straw, this is where I drew the line and finally decided to complain and let zos know that enough was enough with the constant nerfs and pigeonholing of the class into boring builds that barely use the class abilities/themes instead of fixing their broken/bugged/overpowered sets or properly fixing the issues or modernizing the class.
- Every class gets access to a comparable version of streak/BoL to pair with their superior healing/defense, yet the "buff" offered to sorcs to compensate for this theft of class identity and the lack of fixes to the class was to force them even further into running a tank build with no damage or stick to pve with a pet/heavy attack build that simply doesn't function in pvp outside of being a cheese build for duels that barely anyone likes playing. This was an insult to sorc players, especially when so many good ideas were put forward by so many sorc mains that gave specific pain points for the devs to focus their buffs/fixes on, with plenty of time for the devs to design, build and test them out inhouse before the PTS went live.

It was this final point that has drawn so much ire from the sorc community. ZOS was given the information they needed, long before this patch was even being thought about being ported into the PTS servers, they had plenty of time and everything they needed from those who main the class on the issues the class faces and where the buffs/fixes should be focused and instead of listening to those who know the class, they completely ignored all of that good feedback and insulted us by giving the class a buff that it did not need (the same thing they did with crystal weapon back in U34).

ketsparrowhawk

axi wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

The buff to Bloodthirsty is gonna be pretty nasty for sorcs too. Kick on Overload and launch the curse/fury/frags with 630-1050 execute damage starting at 90% hp. Oooh yeah.

They didn't buff bloodthirsty itself they just buffed jewelery of lower than gold qualities to have higher max values so for example white bloodthirsty jewelery which right now on live server have "up to 70 weapon and spell dmg" description will have "up to 210" description and same will go for other qualities except of golden which will be untouched. Scaling for bloodthirsty remains untouched and if someone wears golden jewelery right now there will be zero difference between current live version and U37 version, only lower qualities will notice a change.

I see. I misunderstood the patch notes.

Melzo

UnassumingNoob wrote: »

Melzo wrote: »

UnassumingNoob wrote: »

Honestly I feel sorcerors are amongst the most entitled of players. There have been very few patches where sorcs don’t dominate.

Saying that… They are not in a good space atm. I think the mist form changes is a huge boon to them. There is zero reason not to buff their kit as currently they are underpowered. Streak was OP as ***. Don’t lie to yourselves. But now everyone can do it. Sorcs should be buffed now

And how will the sorcerers become weaker from the vampire cloud? You should not be afraid of mist form but the chain at the Dk. There are many skills that allow you to catch up with the sorcerer. I do not see the point of such whining. In the next patch, every DK will use a chain. This is what you should be afraid of.

Look mist form being changed to a streak is a proxy nerf for sorcs because arguably the strongest tool in their kit became homogenized across the classes. If it was such an amazing feature for sorc(which it was) and is now available to everyone this by default makes sorcs weaker. In essence it is a proxy nerf to sorcs. I’m not scared of sorcs because of mist form. I’m saying that it, in a way (sadly,) levels the playin field and exposes just how weak they are without streak in their kit.

It’s farcical in nature to give DKs a buff.

Have you tested this new feature?? Miss forms will become a replacement for acceleration. I still do not see how the sorcerer will become weaker. The sorcerer always had a pig card in which he could get the enemy and leave when he wanted. I've also seen sorcerers with a pet to restore health. The maximum you lose is one slot. But for that you will receive a heal that will allow you to restore health and an ally. You can complain that the pet is dying quickly, but what's stopping you from resurrecting it??


Here, imagine the situation. You are a dk or any other class using mist form and I am a sorcerer. You teleport to me and I teleport through you to the side and at the same time impose a stun on you. You teleport again and I teleport again to the side. Who runs out of mana faster? A sorcerer with 40+ mana, or your DK with 25 mana and much weaker regen. And in this case, there is also a difference whether the dk will use mist forms or he will use his chain on you. It is much more efficient to use a chain. Since she is attracted immediately to the sorcerer and has a range further and deals damage by imposing acceleration on herself and another buff for damage.

Vampiric mist will be used as an all-around skill for escaping and attacking, but it will not replace either the chain or the streak of the sorcerer.

StaticWave

Yes, Sorc mains complain too much. It's ok and understandable because the class has gone through patches of being shadowed by stronger classes.

What's not ok is claiming that Sorc is the weakest class in the game, then using that claim to ask for buffs that would clearly make it OP. There's a difference between asking for buffs, and wanting the class to be OP. There's always going to be bias, but that's why sorc mains need to be objective and look at how the class performs against ALL builds and classes. Sorc looks weak compared to NB, but against a Templar, Sorc looks much better. If Sorc is the weakest class in the game, then why is Templar worse?

It's the fact that Sorc mains exaggerate their class' current standing on the class tier list that makes everyone annoyed. I'm a sorc main and I don't even ask for such drastic buffs. That will only lead to the class being nerfed the following patch.

Luede

i think the sorc could use some buffs defensively, the hardened ward adjustment might help a bit, but i would have liked to see something in the healing, where there are real deficits due to the pet situation. a healing that you simply stop by knocking down a 20k hp pet is bad design.

for my part, they could have added a lower hot to crit surge instead of a heal that only works when you're playing offensively anyway. or a class heal that doesn't force you to use 2 slots with a vulnerable pet.

the healing wouldn't have to be completely absurd, but more than we currently have would be nice.

by the way, i think it was absolutely wrong to buff the execute. this will only lead to more people complaining about sorcs being in second line and throwing an aoe execute around.

Caribou77

I’m not a sorc main, but I pvp alot and feel pretty strongly that its skills have been neglected (magsorc) and it’s been largely left behind.

DK is such a braindead overpowered class these days, and buffing them with Major Berserk while giving a 10% shield buff to Sorc is so out of alignment with trying to make PvP more balanced that I’m actually thinking it is not a goal, and that I’ve been naive to ever think it was.

Zodiarkslayer

Anyone who plays PvP knows that PvP is broken. Systemically. Why complain about only one small part?

All classes have very different prerequisites for PvP. The system is not just unbalanced, it's unfair.

And unless one takes a sword, this gordic knot of a problem isn't going to be solved.

Ecgberht_confused

@Turtle_Bot Thank you for the elaborate prsentation of the history of how sorc has been neglected and pigeonholed into an old playstyle. I really hope ZoS becomes aware of this. And if they are, I hope they do acknowledge it.

Melzo wrote: »

I've also seen sorcerers with a pet to restore health. The maximum you lose is one slot. But for that you will receive a heal that will allow you to restore health and an ally. You can complain that the pet is dying quickly, but what's stopping you from resurrecting it??

There's a number of problems with a relying on the heal from the matriarch:
1. Summoning the pet actually has a cast time of 1.5 sec. So imagine you're in combat and need an urgent heal. Everyone will just press a button in 1 GCD. Sorc will press the same button, finding that the pet is dead and is being resummoned, wait 1.5 secs, then use the button again spending a GCD to heal. If the heal was actually urgent, you'd be dead by now.
2. 2 bar slots instead of 1. You dismissed that too easily. Sorc already struggles on bar space since sorc burst line up already requires 3 slots (curse, wrath, frag), plus you'll need an out of class spammable on top of this.
3. In PvP the pet is mostly just a fuse for a plaguebreak bomb. I know because that's what I do on my bomb build. When a zerg comes and one brought a pet, you focus the pet in 1 or 2 GCDs and boom it triggers Occult Overload AND Plaguebreak. If one player dies because of this it then triggers vicious death, and you have an explosion reaction.
4. After all this, the matriarch is not even guaranteed to heal. As the heal can easily only go to allies.

colossalvoids

Actually it's pretty great that sorc playerbase still have enough people on forums who care enough to give constructive criticism and feedback, whilst other classes left with literally from one to zero ones who care to do the same.

AdamLAD

Metallic hit the nail on the head. Since launch we have just received nerfs. I remember shields were 20 seconds In duration. Since the beginning of time on eso we have just received nerfs (besides runecage, but that was nerfed). So that's what ? Close to a decade ? Most of the time we sat in silence as we all good enough to adapt and we knew yes somethings were overtuned. But now it's come to the point where after nearly a decade we are just justifiably annoyed at not getting buffs whatsoever that hold any significance. That's the reason why most of us complain. Heck I'm still doing absolutely phenomenal on my sorc, but I have felt the massive creep in raw power slowly changing. And now the gap is big between sorcerer and all the other classes. Templar is not as strong as it used to be yes obviously but you all still have access to the updated mechanics of 40k hp, max out resistance and 6k weapon damage, don't forget you lot can still block. Mathematically it is like over 10k critical resistance and 36k normal resistance for holding one button. Sorcs do not have this with wards and you have a cleanse. We are physically outdated. I remember someone doing a buff/debuff video on all the classes and sorc has the lowest amount of them in the game. All these things add up to the power creep and nothing has been done whatsoever by Zos to bump us up to suit that creep

Katlefiya

Do Sorcerers Complain too much?

Well, everyone else seems to complain about sorcs, regardless how strong or weak the class really is. It is always "streak is op", "shield stacking is op", "pets are annoying and ez mode", "sorcs steal kills", etc. etc.

Every little buff - the few that sorcs did receive over time - is met with criticism, every nerf seems to be celebrated on the forums as justified, while other classes continue to be buffed ad nauseam for no apparent reasons.

ForumBully

Katlefiya wrote: »

Do Sorcerers Complain too much?

Well, everyone else seems to complain about sorcs, regardless how strong or weak the class really is. It is always "streak is op", "shield stacking is op", "pets are annoying and ez mode", "sorcs steal kills", etc. etc.

Every little buff - the few that sorcs did receive over time - is met with criticism, every nerf seems to be celebrated on the forums as justified, while other classes continue to be buffed ad nauseam for no apparent reasons.

Totally agree. When ZoS wanted to put a cast time on shields, Sorcs were very actively against it, justifiably, and that was a rare example of ZoS changing directions mid-PTS so some people begrudge sorcs as crybabies.

At the time, I don't think anyone who was being honest about balance believed Sorcs were fine the way they were with essentially 3 full health bars worth of shields to cut through. They were without question the tankiest thing on the battlefield. Their damage was good too, but defensively they were unmatched.

Times have changed. ZOS has created an environment where the defensive power of the old sorcs can be obtained passively through mitigation and healing, where even those sorcs in the past had to actively apply their defense.

Sorcs won that battle that would have killed the class in a single stroke back then, but have been slowly dying to neglect as the game evolved ever since.

ketsparrowhawk

Not a sorc main but I play one a fair amount and shred every time so I am not convinced they're in any kind of bad shape. Sorcs are unmatched regarding long-range offense + mobility and that should come with some weaknesses. To me it makes sense that healing/tankiness is their weakness.

Aces-High-82

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

Not a sorc main but I play one a fair amount and shred every time so I am not convinced they're in any kind of bad shape. Sorcs are unmatched regarding long-range offense + mobility and that should come with some weaknesses. To me it makes sense that healing/tankiness is their weakness.

You should try Bowblade then.... bc you know, who needs mobility or effort if you're invisible 95% of the time anyway XD

Mephilis78

Well, they are sheltered library denizens, do you expect them to be tuff?

StaticWave

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

Not a sorc main but I play one a fair amount and shred every time so I am not convinced they're in any kind of bad shape. Sorcs are unmatched regarding long-range offense + mobility and that should come with some weaknesses. To me it makes sense that healing/tankiness is their weakness.

They aren't. They've never been at the bottom of the tier list. They were definitely shadowed by OP classes like pre-nerfed templar and current DK, but they could hold their own against most builds and classes. If I were to rank them, I'd put them in the B+/A tier.

What baffles me is how most sorc mains refuse to accept that their class would be OP if ZOS decided to buff it using their suggestions. Sorc's playstyle hasn't changed over 5 years, yet it could still keep up with most classes. Any drastic buffs would push the class over the top like NB. NB's never been bad either, but these recent unnecessary buffs turned it into one of the strongest/borderline overperforming classes.

Turtle_Bot

StaticWave wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

Not a sorc main but I play one a fair amount and shred every time so I am not convinced they're in any kind of bad shape. Sorcs are unmatched regarding long-range offense + mobility and that should come with some weaknesses. To me it makes sense that healing/tankiness is their weakness.

They aren't. They've never been at the bottom of the tier list. They were definitely shadowed by OP classes like pre-nerfed templar and current DK, but they could hold their own against most builds and classes. If I were to rank them, I'd put them in the B+/A tier.

What baffles me is how most sorc mains refuse to accept that their class would be OP if ZOS decided to buff it using their suggestions. Sorc's playstyle hasn't changed over 5 years, yet it could still keep up with most classes. Any drastic buffs would push the class over the top like NB. NB's never been bad either, but these recent unnecessary buffs turned it into one of the strongest/borderline overperforming classes.

I think the issue is that a lot of people mix up "fixing the class" with "buffing the class"

In terms of actual buffs, I agree with you that just 2 actual straight up buffs are needed.
1. The option of a proper burst heal (honestly, at this point just make 1 of the shield morphs into a proper burst heal instead of a shield if they are that overly concerned about shield stacking with healing, this gives the option to choose a shield playstyle or go with a more standard build with healing).
2. More buff/debuff access (mostly for crit chance/crit damage modifiers (major prophecy/savagery and major or minor force) to synergise the kit properly with crit surge, the class HoT).

In terms of fixes, this is where sorc needs the most help. A general pass through of the abilities/passives to modernize and better synergize the class kit like what they did with dk, nb and most recently warden and combine/update/tidy up duplicate passives that are a relic of the past where the game was weaker and there was still a mag/stam split, where it made sense to split the passives into multiple slots for what they provided.
This would of course require some tooltips to be slightly reduced (by say 5-10%), but it would help a lot with bringing the class into a better spot for everyone and not just the few top players who are still able to make it work.
The pass through would not be a buff to tooltips or values and would quite likely bring a slight nerf to these raw values, but would strictly look at how the kit functions and synergizes compared to the other classes and where it can be improved in this aspect.

When it comes to ranking sorc, this is difficult to do because rankings are super subjective by nature and it depends on who is playing it. In the hands of a good player, the class can still be A+ tier, but in the hands of an average player, this is where it is a B- class at best. U35 was all about "reducing the skill gap" according to the devs own statements, yet the skill gap for sorc is currently at the highest it's ever been at and is significantly higher than the skill gap for every other class in the game, hence why you don't realistically see the class outside of the select few top players that still make the class work or in a ball group as a negate/heal/streak bot or in a zerg using a heavy attack + wrath build from keep walls. That shows that the class itself is not in a good spot, since the players that are playing it are either top tier and can make any class work or are not even bothering with 99% of the class kit.

PhoenixGrey

StaticWave wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

Not a sorc main but I play one a fair amount and shred every time so I am not convinced they're in any kind of bad shape. Sorcs are unmatched regarding long-range offense + mobility and that should come with some weaknesses. To me it makes sense that healing/tankiness is their weakness.

They aren't. They've never been at the bottom of the tier list. They were definitely shadowed by OP classes like pre-nerfed templar and current DK, but they could hold their own against most builds and classes. If I were to rank them, I'd put them in the B+/A tier.

What baffles me is how most sorc mains refuse to accept that their class would be OP if ZOS decided to buff it using their suggestions. Sorc's playstyle hasn't changed over 5 years, yet it could still keep up with most classes. Any drastic buffs would push the class over the top like NB. NB's never been bad either, but these recent unnecessary buffs turned it into one of the strongest/borderline overperforming classes.

I am pretty sure we have reached the end of the rope as far as sorc buffs go.
ZOS clearly wants us to play 40k health sorcs doing tons of uncounterable oblivion damage without using thumbs and having 10k wards on top of it. Its the best Xv1 and dueling setup but I can guarantee you will melt in a 1vX. When you play this next patch remember who called this out

My suggestions were definitely less OP and healthier than the scenario above

AdamLAD

I'm sorry, sorcerer is like C+. All the YouTube content creators agree it's in the bin. Me also a content creator know its in the bin. Every fight I have the enemy sorcerer just flat out paper and dies immediately if they do not run away. This can be said for no other class at all. All I ever see is 35k HP Wardens, temps, Dks, necros and will capped out resistance and 6k weapon damage. With nightblades that are also immortal due to cloak. Sorcerer does not have such luxury of having anything remotely close thus why its in the bin and dies immediately if they do not run. We cannot even BLOCK. Do u PHYSICALLY understand how strong blocking is. Like I've stated in other posts, sorcerers defensive capabilities and sustain is the main issue. We can't keep wards up long enough to line up our timed burst combination which no other class needs to do. Wards cost A RIDICULOUS AMOUNT. Highest defensive abilities in the game, they are paper and make block mitigation go to 0, they are capped. Utterly pathetic. Our damage abilities are not the primary issue. Yes execute could do with a buff and frags higher proc chance and a stun but that's IT at maximum for our offence. I'd much rather them buff all Wards and lower the cost by a LARGE amount 30% at minimum. That's ALL WARDS by the way. It's the only reason sorcerer is in the bin. I'm telling you now it will be fine if you do what I'm asking and it will simply not break the class.

Dr_Con

https://youtu.be/q4e8R9Dzddw?t=6855

@ 1:54:15
pretty fair assessment of magsorc in group pvp.