Do Sorcerers Complain too much?

Brrrofski · February 2023

StaticWave wrote: »

This is all I have, I no longer make videos about this game.

https://youtu.be/OHcjl02gJL0

https://youtu.be/VLTP4a1r1z4

You combo and move like a good player for sure.

But in the first clip in the first vid, you kill a guy that doesn't know how to CC break and a nightblade that does nothing but cloak.

Next clip, they do no damage to you.

Last clip, someone's using whirling blades on you at full health.

Nothing there tells me anything about how good the build is tbh. You could kill those people with any build I'd suspect.

Listen, I'm not bashing you, I'm bashing sorc. Do you play other classes? Surely you notice the difference if you do? Because things I can do on my sorc at the moment pale in comparison to my NB or DK.

And that's me crutching on Mara's Balm on my sorc. I kill plenty of people on it for sure, and have some nice 1vX. But there's too many times where I lose a fight and I know if I was on another class (apart from Templar tbf), I probably would've won it.

Caribou77 · February 2023

If youre struggling on Magsorc (like you should be) consider going Stam, picking up a 2h wep, and spamming Dizzy/Executioner. Lose the stupid staff that has no viable skills. Haven’t you figured out that ranged magica builds will not be supported for pvp? Ever wonder why crystal frags are dodged or just plain miss 80% of the time, but Dizzy can hit you from 50 ft away, and through a pillar? Or why Dragon Leap will knock back an entire area of 300 square feet, but frost clench won’t even slow down a Stam build in medium armor?

Brrrofski · February 2023

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Same main sets as my normal stamsorc build but with Chudan and Ice staff back bar:

Fully buffed with pots and CP, no continuous. Essence thief adds another 500-800 recovery and 10% damage done on top. Pen is around 21k fully buffed with Major/Minor Breach and Cwep pen. Daedric Trickery gives Major Expedition/Vitality/Mending/Heroism/Protection. Can always drop it for more damage but I doubt it's necessary. The only thing missing is a burst heal, but next patch with HP scaling Hardened Ward I can drop Bound Aegis for that (Shield is way better than blocking).

As you can see, it is not that hard to come up with a build that still has the magsorc playstyle but better. Whether you want to do that or not is your choice.

I'm sorry, but I can't take this build seriously as an open world option. Less than 18k physical resistance in the current meta is just asking to get 1 shot unless you have well over 40k health. Especially on PC EU where builds/bugs are exploited as soon as they are discovered and performance forces tankiness because skills still don't work reliably.
Most "squishy" builds are currently running buffed, 25k+ armor, regular builds at 30k+ and tanks at 35k+.

I know this build won't work, I've tried similar builds in the past (even back when resto was strong and fixed our healing issues), but buffed resistances that low without sea-serpents and 4 defensive blue CP just screams gank me.

Are you telling me how my build works? I have a youtube channel with 1vX videos using this build for 3+ patches… Sets are unchanged, just abilities…

I'm sure it works for you on PC NA where lag, skill failure and all the other bugs are much less prevalent due to the server upgrades, but on PC EU where I play, I have ran very similar builds and they did not work at all, the lag is far too punishing, the builds in pvp are different and much tankier and as I said in my post, any time an exploit, bug or OP build is found it is immediately abused so running around with barely 21k resistances in openworld cyrodiil just doesn't cut it unless you're part of a group that can carry that low defense.
It becomes a DPS race and since the build effectively has no armor, it always loses that race except against very bad players.

I’ve always used the build even before server upgrades. I wouldn’t post the build if it wasn’t field tested.

And I did say that it wasn't only the server performance being the difference between your build working for you and it not working for me.

There's a huge difference between EU and NA pvp, more so than NA players like to admit. I've watched players from both servers, played on both servers and have friends that have played very high level pvp on both servers and every time it's come back as EU is much harder to run squishy builds on due to multiple factors, everyone being much tankier, many more players exploiting broken/bugged/OP builds, more/larger zergs that have no chill, less mediocre players, server performance and other factors such as playstyles.

Don't take this as "you're a bad player" because that is definitely not what I'm trying to say or infer, it is only meant to point out that there are many differences between the servers and players and what works for someone on 1 server won't work for someone else on another server, or even on the same server due to many different factors.

People massively overlook skill/knowledge difference on servers.

I started on Xbox EU and moved to NA. The difference is night and day. I know Adam Lad plays EU (who is one of the top mag sorcs on the server) and I think he plays NA so can probably comment.

For whatever reason, EU is a lot harder to run around solo. I find there to be overall a better quality of player.

When I first moved, I was like 300cp and using battlefield acrobat and fury I think. Because I was broke. And I was having decent success in open world, running solo on a NB. Good players stomped me of course, but overall I could hang on the server. That flat out wouldn't cut it on EU. I wouldn't kill 5% of the population there.

I think partly that's due to way lower population on EU, so the players that PvP has retained for the most part are ones more invested in it, so know how to build for and play better. You get less people who are trying it or don't play as much.

Even for less skilled players, there's even a dude on EP that tells the entire faction sets to use. So even if they aren't that good, they know what sets carry.

Are there good and bad players on both? Or course. Plenty of people on NA that are ridiculously good, and EU has some awful players. But overall, there's a big gap in level of opponent.

So it'll be the same with other platforms and regions.

Most build videos I see are PC NA and they often make me laugh a bit, because there's no way you could get away with those builds in the PvP I play. They either don't have the damage I know you need, or have no resistance so will get eaten alive by the damage being pumped out by most players, or have no sustain which won't cut it as fights don't end that quick.

And often in the videos, I can't work out what the enemies are doing. They don't heal, buff or put pressure on. PvP doesn't look like that to me. I come across those players for sure, but not 6 of them at a time.

I'm not calling people or servers out. Like I said, there's reason that quality changes. PC has the biggest player base, so with that comes even more casuals. But my experience has shown me that quality does change.

Anyway, to make my post relevant to the topic, some of they builds/way to play sorc that I see mentioned, won't last two seconds in the PvP I know. They'll kill very little and die very quick.

PhoenixGrey · February 2023

gariondavey wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

MetallicMonk wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

I am not too bothered about how much sorc is buffed as long as they raise the ceiling. The recent buff is exactly the opposite direction.

I know the build you are talking about but I just don't think its defensively good enough compared to other specs in the game.

I don't think you do know the build or you wouldn't think the class is as bad as you seem to, that or you haven't tried it yourself.

I do agree though I don't think scaling shields off HP is a good idea whatsoever, increasing the shield a bit and reducing its cost would be much more agreeable to me. I can almost guarantee they're doing this because it simultaneously helps off-meta sorc tanks in pve though.

I primarily think mag sorc has serious defensive issues.

This issue will come to light if you are trying to hold your own against multiple decent players who are not exactly elite but know what they are doing. There are top tier tier players on other classes who do fine in these scenarios.
The issues also come to light in no CP bgs against high MMR players.

I know the build you are talking about involves rallying cry but there are other classes which can use the same sets and perform better

Streak does not just magically make up for all the defensive problems.

Magsorc with ddf + rallying cry + chudan + wv is pretty dang well rounded. I know a few people who run this and they slap

Still not good enough relatively

Disagree. Have a nice day.

The problem here is you think rallying cry along with streak fixes all issues with the class.

Wear rallying cry / mara's on ice warden and you straight up tank 6-8 ppl in CP. There is nothing sorc can do which other classes cannot do better

PhoenixGrey · February 2023

Brrrofski wrote: »

Anyway, to make my post relevant to the topic, some of they builds/way to play sorc that I see mentioned, won't last two seconds in the PvP I know. They'll kill very little and die very quick.

This is exactly my point as well.

Those setups are just not good enough for the kind of PVP i m used to. Those builds crumble instantly in a high MMR bg or if you are outnumbered against players who are fairly decent

Turtle_Bot · February 2023

Brrrofski wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Same main sets as my normal stamsorc build but with Chudan and Ice staff back bar:

Fully buffed with pots and CP, no continuous. Essence thief adds another 500-800 recovery and 10% damage done on top. Pen is around 21k fully buffed with Major/Minor Breach and Cwep pen. Daedric Trickery gives Major Expedition/Vitality/Mending/Heroism/Protection. Can always drop it for more damage but I doubt it's necessary. The only thing missing is a burst heal, but next patch with HP scaling Hardened Ward I can drop Bound Aegis for that (Shield is way better than blocking).

As you can see, it is not that hard to come up with a build that still has the magsorc playstyle but better. Whether you want to do that or not is your choice.

I'm sorry, but I can't take this build seriously as an open world option. Less than 18k physical resistance in the current meta is just asking to get 1 shot unless you have well over 40k health. Especially on PC EU where builds/bugs are exploited as soon as they are discovered and performance forces tankiness because skills still don't work reliably.
Most "squishy" builds are currently running buffed, 25k+ armor, regular builds at 30k+ and tanks at 35k+.

I know this build won't work, I've tried similar builds in the past (even back when resto was strong and fixed our healing issues), but buffed resistances that low without sea-serpents and 4 defensive blue CP just screams gank me.

Are you telling me how my build works? I have a youtube channel with 1vX videos using this build for 3+ patches… Sets are unchanged, just abilities…

I'm sure it works for you on PC NA where lag, skill failure and all the other bugs are much less prevalent due to the server upgrades, but on PC EU where I play, I have ran very similar builds and they did not work at all, the lag is far too punishing, the builds in pvp are different and much tankier and as I said in my post, any time an exploit, bug or OP build is found it is immediately abused so running around with barely 21k resistances in openworld cyrodiil just doesn't cut it unless you're part of a group that can carry that low defense.
It becomes a DPS race and since the build effectively has no armor, it always loses that race except against very bad players.

I’ve always used the build even before server upgrades. I wouldn’t post the build if it wasn’t field tested.

And I did say that it wasn't only the server performance being the difference between your build working for you and it not working for me.

There's a huge difference between EU and NA pvp, more so than NA players like to admit. I've watched players from both servers, played on both servers and have friends that have played very high level pvp on both servers and every time it's come back as EU is much harder to run squishy builds on due to multiple factors, everyone being much tankier, many more players exploiting broken/bugged/OP builds, more/larger zergs that have no chill, less mediocre players, server performance and other factors such as playstyles.

Don't take this as "you're a bad player" because that is definitely not what I'm trying to say or infer, it is only meant to point out that there are many differences between the servers and players and what works for someone on 1 server won't work for someone else on another server, or even on the same server due to many different factors.

People massively overlook skill/knowledge difference on servers.

Anyway, to make my post relevant to the topic, some of they builds/way to play sorc that I see mentioned, won't last two seconds in the PvP I know. They'll kill very little and die very quick.

Yep, this is the conclusion I've come to as well and as you said, there are definitely insanely good players on both servers, but NA (especially since the server upgrades) have a lot more casual players that don't really understand the concepts behind doing well in pvp to dilute the population and allow for those X's to be more common.
I've also noticed the quality of groups in EU are higher too, more coordinated, larger and less likely to chase a tank around for hours on end to get bombed/X'd (although that does still happen), the zerglings are much tankier as well and really do use their numbers well against solo (as you said, someone explaining the carry sets in zone chat is the reason for this).
Going solo on EU is almost non-existent now, sure some still do it from time to time (myself included), but most end up either going small scale or just following the zergs for pick-offs, even the best players on EU stick to small scale, zerg surfing or baiting for the zergs, I haven't seen a good player truly go solo in open world in a long time (I know malcolm put out a video recently that shows him solo on a hybrid sorc, but he's not online when I'm playing, so I haven't actually seen it in game).

Brrrofski · February 2023

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

Anyway, to make my post relevant to the topic, some of they builds/way to play sorc that I see mentioned, won't last two seconds in the PvP I know. They'll kill very little and die very quick.

This is exactly my point as well.

Those setups are just not good enough for the kind of PVP i m used to. Those builds crumble instantly in a high MMR bg or if you are outnumbered against players who are fairly decent

I thing BGs are another issue.

People think magsorc is amazing in PvP because it's very good at kill stealing in BGs because of mage's wrath.

They fail to realise that 90% of the kill probably belongs to someone else.

Brrrofski · February 2023

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Same main sets as my normal stamsorc build but with Chudan and Ice staff back bar:

Fully buffed with pots and CP, no continuous. Essence thief adds another 500-800 recovery and 10% damage done on top. Pen is around 21k fully buffed with Major/Minor Breach and Cwep pen. Daedric Trickery gives Major Expedition/Vitality/Mending/Heroism/Protection. Can always drop it for more damage but I doubt it's necessary. The only thing missing is a burst heal, but next patch with HP scaling Hardened Ward I can drop Bound Aegis for that (Shield is way better than blocking).

As you can see, it is not that hard to come up with a build that still has the magsorc playstyle but better. Whether you want to do that or not is your choice.

I'm sorry, but I can't take this build seriously as an open world option. Less than 18k physical resistance in the current meta is just asking to get 1 shot unless you have well over 40k health. Especially on PC EU where builds/bugs are exploited as soon as they are discovered and performance forces tankiness because skills still don't work reliably.
Most "squishy" builds are currently running buffed, 25k+ armor, regular builds at 30k+ and tanks at 35k+.

I know this build won't work, I've tried similar builds in the past (even back when resto was strong and fixed our healing issues), but buffed resistances that low without sea-serpents and 4 defensive blue CP just screams gank me.

Are you telling me how my build works? I have a youtube channel with 1vX videos using this build for 3+ patches… Sets are unchanged, just abilities…

I'm sure it works for you on PC NA where lag, skill failure and all the other bugs are much less prevalent due to the server upgrades, but on PC EU where I play, I have ran very similar builds and they did not work at all, the lag is far too punishing, the builds in pvp are different and much tankier and as I said in my post, any time an exploit, bug or OP build is found it is immediately abused so running around with barely 21k resistances in openworld cyrodiil just doesn't cut it unless you're part of a group that can carry that low defense.
It becomes a DPS race and since the build effectively has no armor, it always loses that race except against very bad players.

I’ve always used the build even before server upgrades. I wouldn’t post the build if it wasn’t field tested.

And I did say that it wasn't only the server performance being the difference between your build working for you and it not working for me.

There's a huge difference between EU and NA pvp, more so than NA players like to admit. I've watched players from both servers, played on both servers and have friends that have played very high level pvp on both servers and every time it's come back as EU is much harder to run squishy builds on due to multiple factors, everyone being much tankier, many more players exploiting broken/bugged/OP builds, more/larger zergs that have no chill, less mediocre players, server performance and other factors such as playstyles.

Don't take this as "you're a bad player" because that is definitely not what I'm trying to say or infer, it is only meant to point out that there are many differences between the servers and players and what works for someone on 1 server won't work for someone else on another server, or even on the same server due to many different factors.

People massively overlook skill/knowledge difference on servers.

Anyway, to make my post relevant to the topic, some of they builds/way to play sorc that I see mentioned, won't last two seconds in the PvP I know. They'll kill very little and die very quick.

Yep, this is the conclusion I've come to as well and as you said, there are definitely insanely good players on both servers, but NA (especially since the server upgrades) have a lot more casual players that don't really understand the concepts behind doing well in pvp to dilute the population and allow for those X's to be more common.
I've also noticed the quality of groups in EU are higher too, more coordinated, larger and less likely to chase a tank around for hours on end to get bombed/X'd (although that does still happen), the zerglings are much tankier as well and really do use their numbers well against solo (as you said, someone explaining the carry sets in zone chat is the reason for this).
Going solo on EU is almost non-existent now, sure some still do it from time to time (myself included), but most end up either going small scale or just following the zergs for pick-offs, even the best players on EU stick to small scale, zerg surfing or baiting for the zergs, I haven't seen a good player truly go solo in open world in a long time (I know malcolm put out a video recently that shows him solo on a hybrid sorc, but he's not online when I'm playing, so I haven't actually seen it in game).

Speaking of Malcolm, I can see his build working. I run a similar build that does ok.

Can I do better on another class? Absolutely.

Would he do better on another class? Probably.

Are both of us using Mara's Balm to get a decent build with some semblance of a mag sorc feeling? For sure.

The_Titan_Tim · February 2023

AdamLAD wrote: »

The thing is, people who get destroyed by a sorcerer always complain. "Shields stack" "Streak" or they just simply will not accept the better player beat them or killed them. For some reason, since the dawn of eso sorcerer has been singled out and the populace of eso always say its too strong regardless of anything. They just always say its too strong without any real tangible justifiable reason. This has been on going since release, I've always found that if you can play mag sorc well you can play any class well, keeping wards up and lining up a perfect combination is alot harder than what you have to do on other classes. This point is even more relevant today when people are running around with 40k HP and 6k weapon damage and maxed out resistances and just spam skills and do damage. Sorcerer cannot do that, we have to elegantly do a burst combination that is timed to do any significant damage and that significant damage is getting less and less as time moves on but all other classes who don't need a burst combo are just getting stronger and stronger and stronger as they can use new sets, use all these buffs and modifiers. Sorcerer can't. We are stuck in the past. This is fine so as long as we get buffs to suit the uniqueness of the class.

What? Have you forgotten 1.5 and the patches following it? Sorcerer and Nightblade were king when ESO was in it’s prime as it had just came to console.

My girlfriend was hitting 100k+ Overloads in PvE, good luck surviving those in PvP back when a health bar over 20k indicated you were a tank, I used to just chill on my Templar running Lich and just funnel her heals as the magicka version of my class was quite literally at the bottom with magicka Dragonknight, only good for defiling and healing and heal her as she killed everyone on repeat.

Needless to say, when your first memories of PvP are of a class one-tapping you with a built up 1,000 ultimate Overload repeatedly or of getting Ambush spammed by a viper Nightblade, it makes you a bit jaded towards those classes.

When we are playing in high damage patches, classes that capitalize on burst damage absolutely dominate the competition as they heavily punish mistakes or take full advantage of combat desync. Sorcerer and Nightblade are kings of burst and always have been, it’s unfortunate that playing the classes currently you’re stuck as a 2h StamSorc hybrid or a melee MagBlade… but there’s no denying the results, and next patch they will be even more telling, especially on StamSorc with the new Wrecking Blow.

The problem with our current meta is that Dragonknights are doing everything the other classes are known for, but better, while still retaining their own identity.

AdamLAD · February 2023

NA is 10x easier than EU on xbox. Not saying there's not good players there is of course. Reason being the population. On EU you see the same people everyday, the zerglings are ruthless. When it comes to midyear they start to 1vX simply because of the new people that come into PvP. There's some zerglings who 1vX outside of midyear too. They are just talented casuals. On every server outside xbox EU I just constantly see people who are obviously fresh at PvP, due to high populations getting bodied immediately, this simply does not happen on my server. When I went to NA and started to 1vX at 200 cp and was killing there supposed good players in duels with outdated builds. The general concensus of people who came to EU admitted its dead and 10x harder and the people who left said other servers are 10x easier. Not because there's not good players but because of way higher population count to fight fresh PvPers. I recognise broffski, his conclusion that builds will simply never work on other servers due to being too squishy is 100% correct. It's why React who was a fantastic player on Xbox NA it's just destroying people on PC, it has a higher population count. The best way to describe it, its whenever you fight a player and your like he actually knows what he doing and is annoying, he self heals, blocks does damage, kites they don't just flop. Xing on xbox EU is like fighting that standard all the time. Whenever you're going to X be prepared to fight all those players who can do all of that is what I'm saying, there's hardly any fresh players to kill.

But we're going off topic buff mag sorc 🤣

ForumBully · February 2023

AdamLAD wrote: »

But we're going off topic buff mag sorc 🤣

I agree. The less ZOS has to dig through finding out who's great and what build they use, the more likely something might happen. It's already a longshot, but many good ideas have been presented to improve an outdated toolkit.

AdamLAD · February 2023

ForumBully wrote: »

AdamLAD wrote: »

But we're going off topic buff mag sorc 🤣

I agree. The less ZOS has to dig through finding out who's great and what build they use, the more likely something might happen. It's already a longshot, but many good ideas have been presented to improve an outdated toolkit.

For about 2 years now, I've felt with each update magicka sorcerer getting weaker and weaker. Not because anything has changed on the class but because everything else has received updates. We haven't had a damn thing in years. In a way, I'm glad it's seriously made me a better player, but it's time we received something significant. Fighting just at an immediate disadvantage in all situations becomes extremely boring and tedious after a while. I'd like to have some power in my hands, some raw power. It's seriously declined the raw power of the class. It's not just me. it's everyone who plays it. The amount of people that message me on xbox saying the class is absolutely terrible, Shields are paper and too expensive. I sympathise because it's so true. Its crystal clear no one at zenimax plays magicka sorcerer in PvP otherwise they would of already known this to be the case for a long time now.

ForumBully · February 2023

AdamLAD wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

AdamLAD wrote: »

But we're going off topic buff mag sorc 🤣

I agree. The less ZOS has to dig through finding out who's great and what build they use, the more likely something might happen. It's already a longshot, but many good ideas have been presented to improve an outdated toolkit.

For about 2 years now, I've felt with each update magicka sorcerer getting weaker and weaker. Not because anything has changed on the class but because everything else has received updates. We haven't had a damn thing in years. In a way, I'm glad it's seriously made me a better player, but it's time we received something significant. Fighting just at an immediate disadvantage in all situations becomes extremely boring and tedious after a while. I'd like to have some power in my hands, some raw power. It's seriously declined the raw power of the class. It's not just me. it's everyone who plays it. The amount of people that message me on xbox saying the class is absolutely terrible, Shields are paper and too expensive. I sympathise because it's so true. Its crystal clear no one at zenimax plays magicka sorcerer in PvP otherwise they would of already known this to be the case for a long time now.

I've never had a "main" and I think I do pretty well on all classes; to me it doesn't feel like Sorcs have changed all that much aside from the shield changes years ago and the BoL change when it was arguably a little over the top defensively. I love the toolkit (aside from pet complaints) and I love the ranged caster playstyle. I still feel like no class does that better, but the play style has been left in the dust as the game changed around it.
NB used to also be a powerhouse from range but now Sorcs stand alone, although I think Templar could join them with some tweaking now that the Templars melee toolkit is weakened.
Something as simple as changing some damage types to shock from Magicka, a buff to Energized or Expert Mage, more set options promoting max stats gameplay and other suggestions I've seen would go a long way to breathing a little life into Sorcs and ranged play in general.
I think there are valid concerns about range being too powerful, but right now it feels almost non existent in PvP.

Turtle_Bot · February 2023

AdamLAD wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

AdamLAD wrote: »

But we're going off topic buff mag sorc 🤣

I agree. The less ZOS has to dig through finding out who's great and what build they use, the more likely something might happen. It's already a longshot, but many good ideas have been presented to improve an outdated toolkit.

For about 2 years now, I've felt with each update magicka sorcerer getting weaker and weaker. Not because anything has changed on the class but because everything else has received updates. We haven't had a damn thing in years. In a way, I'm glad it's seriously made me a better player, but it's time we received something significant. Fighting just at an immediate disadvantage in all situations becomes extremely boring and tedious after a while. I'd like to have some power in my hands, some raw power. It's seriously declined the raw power of the class. It's not just me. it's everyone who plays it. The amount of people that message me on xbox saying the class is absolutely terrible, Shields are paper and too expensive. I sympathise because it's so true. Its crystal clear no one at zenimax plays magicka sorcerer in PvP otherwise they would of already known this to be the case for a long time now.

To add to this as well, every time in the past couple of years that sorcerer has ever felt "strong" in the hands of an average player was because of an outside factor and not really anything to do with the class itself.

Lets look at when sorc was "strong" recently and what was the main reason for this was.
- U32 and before was convergence/plaguebreak for a bomb build with mines/negate (ball groups) or it was crushing weapon stacking with crystal weapon (unintended mechanic, removed)
- U33 was resto staff carrying healing
- U34 was oakensoul or savage werewolf + CW (unintended interaction, reworked + CW overbuffed, immediately nerfed)
- U35 to now, it's mara's balm hard carrying defense/healing

The only class ability on the list is crystal weapon and only because it had unintended interactions (stacking with crushing weapon) or was the overbuffed stamina spammable on a build that used a set with unintended interactions (savage werewolf working at range).

To me this doesn't look like a strong class at all, it looks like a class that has many unintended interactions that needs better designing/testing but not a class that is good on its own like say a DK or a NB.

AdamLAD · February 2023

I think the ranged argument can't be applied and here is why. We already have less damage at ranged. Hence why melee weapons at base have more damage, light attacks hit for less also at range. Not just that a sorcerer needs to line up a perfect combination that requires more time and abilities than other classes thats easily blocked, dodged and cleansed. This is why you will see people say its easy to smash completely brand new players in PvP but utterly atrocious vs any regular PvP player regardless of ability. But everyone can destroy brand new PvP players it's just ever so slightly easier on a sorc because its ranged and they don't block, roll dodge or cleanse our timed burst. Even if we got buffs to our offensive capabilities it wouldn't make a difference to destroying new players as they already get destroyed, it would just help us compete against regular PvP players in terms of raw power.

StaticWave · February 2023

Brrrofski wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

This is all I have, I no longer make videos about this game.

https://youtu.be/OHcjl02gJL0

https://youtu.be/VLTP4a1r1z4

You combo and move like a good player for sure.

But in the first clip in the first vid, you kill a guy that doesn't know how to CC break and a nightblade that does nothing but cloak.

Next clip, they do no damage to you.

Last clip, someone's using whirling blades on you at full health.

Nothing there tells me anything about how good the build is tbh. You could kill those people with any build I'd suspect.

Listen, I'm not bashing you, I'm bashing sorc. Do you play other classes? Surely you notice the difference if you do? Because things I can do on my sorc at the moment pale in comparison to my NB or DK.

And that's me crutching on Mara's Balm on my sorc. I kill plenty of people on it for sure, and have some nice 1vX. But there's too many times where I lose a fight and I know if I was on another class (apart from Templar tbf), I probably would've won it.

I can guarantee you there are hundreds of other vids where I did not make it out alive, even after killing 2-3 of the enemies in a 1vX. There are also clips of me kiting 5-7 people for 5-10 minutes and not dying, but I’m not killing anyone either. I don’t post them on youtube because they are boring to watch.

I cherry pick fights that end up a W for me to post on youtube. This of course involves fighting people much worse than me, but that’s what 1vXing is.

Once I fought a 1v4 with the last one being a semi decent magDk that likes to zerg people down. It took me 10 minutes to kill that DK when he was the last man standing. Would you watch that, or a fight where I can kill everyone in less than 10 minutes?

You don’t have to think the build is good, but I’ve used it in 1v1s, 1vX, BG, and openworld Cyrodiil. It’s done really well for me, and mathematically it’s one of the best builds out there that can satisfy my requirements. I don’t just randomly put sets together and call it. I do a lot of number crunching with CMX and testing my heals against other people before deciding to stick with it. Nothing has come close to what the build can provide for me.

Yes, I play all stamina classes. Stamsorc is weaker than most, and I’ve made many threads asking for sorc buffs if you check my forum profile. What I disagree is the buff direction that many sorc mains are going for.

StaticWave · February 2023

Brrrofski wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Same main sets as my normal stamsorc build but with Chudan and Ice staff back bar:

Fully buffed with pots and CP, no continuous. Essence thief adds another 500-800 recovery and 10% damage done on top. Pen is around 21k fully buffed with Major/Minor Breach and Cwep pen. Daedric Trickery gives Major Expedition/Vitality/Mending/Heroism/Protection. Can always drop it for more damage but I doubt it's necessary. The only thing missing is a burst heal, but next patch with HP scaling Hardened Ward I can drop Bound Aegis for that (Shield is way better than blocking).

As you can see, it is not that hard to come up with a build that still has the magsorc playstyle but better. Whether you want to do that or not is your choice.

I'm sorry, but I can't take this build seriously as an open world option. Less than 18k physical resistance in the current meta is just asking to get 1 shot unless you have well over 40k health. Especially on PC EU where builds/bugs are exploited as soon as they are discovered and performance forces tankiness because skills still don't work reliably.
Most "squishy" builds are currently running buffed, 25k+ armor, regular builds at 30k+ and tanks at 35k+.

I know this build won't work, I've tried similar builds in the past (even back when resto was strong and fixed our healing issues), but buffed resistances that low without sea-serpents and 4 defensive blue CP just screams gank me.

Are you telling me how my build works? I have a youtube channel with 1vX videos using this build for 3+ patches… Sets are unchanged, just abilities…

I'm sure it works for you on PC NA where lag, skill failure and all the other bugs are much less prevalent due to the server upgrades, but on PC EU where I play, I have ran very similar builds and they did not work at all, the lag is far too punishing, the builds in pvp are different and much tankier and as I said in my post, any time an exploit, bug or OP build is found it is immediately abused so running around with barely 21k resistances in openworld cyrodiil just doesn't cut it unless you're part of a group that can carry that low defense.
It becomes a DPS race and since the build effectively has no armor, it always loses that race except against very bad players.

I’ve always used the build even before server upgrades. I wouldn’t post the build if it wasn’t field tested.

And I did say that it wasn't only the server performance being the difference between your build working for you and it not working for me.

There's a huge difference between EU and NA pvp, more so than NA players like to admit. I've watched players from both servers, played on both servers and have friends that have played very high level pvp on both servers and every time it's come back as EU is much harder to run squishy builds on due to multiple factors, everyone being much tankier, many more players exploiting broken/bugged/OP builds, more/larger zergs that have no chill, less mediocre players, server performance and other factors such as playstyles.

Don't take this as "you're a bad player" because that is definitely not what I'm trying to say or infer, it is only meant to point out that there are many differences between the servers and players and what works for someone on 1 server won't work for someone else on another server, or even on the same server due to many different factors.

People massively overlook skill/knowledge difference on servers.

I started on Xbox EU and moved to NA. The difference is night and day. I know Adam Lad plays EU (who is one of the top mag sorcs on the server) and I think he plays NA so can probably comment.

For whatever reason, EU is a lot harder to run around solo. I find there to be overall a better quality of player.

When I first moved, I was like 300cp and using battlefield acrobat and fury I think. Because I was broke. And I was having decent success in open world, running solo on a NB. Good players stomped me of course, but overall I could hang on the server. That flat out wouldn't cut it on EU. I wouldn't kill 5% of the population there.

I think partly that's due to way lower population on EU, so the players that PvP has retained for the most part are ones more invested in it, so know how to build for and play better. You get less people who are trying it or don't play as much.

Even for less skilled players, there's even a dude on EP that tells the entire faction sets to use. So even if they aren't that good, they know what sets carry.

Are there good and bad players on both? Or course. Plenty of people on NA that are ridiculously good, and EU has some awful players. But overall, there's a big gap in level of opponent.

So it'll be the same with other platforms and regions.

Most build videos I see are PC NA and they often make me laugh a bit, because there's no way you could get away with those builds in the PvP I play. They either don't have the damage I know you need, or have no resistance so will get eaten alive by the damage being pumped out by most players, or have no sustain which won't cut it as fights don't end that quick.

And often in the videos, I can't work out what the enemies are doing. They don't heal, buff or put pressure on. PvP doesn't look like that to me. I come across those players for sure, but not 6 of them at a time.

I'm not calling people or servers out. Like I said, there's reason that quality changes. PC has the biggest player base, so with that comes even more casuals. But my experience has shown me that quality does change.

Anyway, to make my post relevant to the topic, some of they builds/way to play sorc that I see mentioned, won't last two seconds in the PvP I know. They'll kill very little and die very quick.

Do you realize that console meta is like several patches behind PC? 4-5 months ago there was an influx of console transfers on PC NA and people were literally using sets that nobody runs on PC because there are better options.

The average pug on PC maybe worse, but the top tier players on PC definitely have better builds.

ForumBully · February 2023

StaticWave wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Same main sets as my normal stamsorc build but with Chudan and Ice staff back bar:

Fully buffed with pots and CP, no continuous. Essence thief adds another 500-800 recovery and 10% damage done on top. Pen is around 21k fully buffed with Major/Minor Breach and Cwep pen. Daedric Trickery gives Major Expedition/Vitality/Mending/Heroism/Protection. Can always drop it for more damage but I doubt it's necessary. The only thing missing is a burst heal, but next patch with HP scaling Hardened Ward I can drop Bound Aegis for that (Shield is way better than blocking).

As you can see, it is not that hard to come up with a build that still has the magsorc playstyle but better. Whether you want to do that or not is your choice.

I'm sorry, but I can't take this build seriously as an open world option. Less than 18k physical resistance in the current meta is just asking to get 1 shot unless you have well over 40k health. Especially on PC EU where builds/bugs are exploited as soon as they are discovered and performance forces tankiness because skills still don't work reliably.
Most "squishy" builds are currently running buffed, 25k+ armor, regular builds at 30k+ and tanks at 35k+.

I know this build won't work, I've tried similar builds in the past (even back when resto was strong and fixed our healing issues), but buffed resistances that low without sea-serpents and 4 defensive blue CP just screams gank me.

Are you telling me how my build works? I have a youtube channel with 1vX videos using this build for 3+ patches… Sets are unchanged, just abilities…

I'm sure it works for you on PC NA where lag, skill failure and all the other bugs are much less prevalent due to the server upgrades, but on PC EU where I play, I have ran very similar builds and they did not work at all, the lag is far too punishing, the builds in pvp are different and much tankier and as I said in my post, any time an exploit, bug or OP build is found it is immediately abused so running around with barely 21k resistances in openworld cyrodiil just doesn't cut it unless you're part of a group that can carry that low defense.
It becomes a DPS race and since the build effectively has no armor, it always loses that race except against very bad players.

I’ve always used the build even before server upgrades. I wouldn’t post the build if it wasn’t field tested.

And I did say that it wasn't only the server performance being the difference between your build working for you and it not working for me.

There's a huge difference between EU and NA pvp, more so than NA players like to admit. I've watched players from both servers, played on both servers and have friends that have played very high level pvp on both servers and every time it's come back as EU is much harder to run squishy builds on due to multiple factors, everyone being much tankier, many more players exploiting broken/bugged/OP builds, more/larger zergs that have no chill, less mediocre players, server performance and other factors such as playstyles.

Don't take this as "you're a bad player" because that is definitely not what I'm trying to say or infer, it is only meant to point out that there are many differences between the servers and players and what works for someone on 1 server won't work for someone else on another server, or even on the same server due to many different factors.

People massively overlook skill/knowledge difference on servers.

I started on Xbox EU and moved to NA. The difference is night and day. I know Adam Lad plays EU (who is one of the top mag sorcs on the server) and I think he plays NA so can probably comment.

For whatever reason, EU is a lot harder to run around solo. I find there to be overall a better quality of player.

When I first moved, I was like 300cp and using battlefield acrobat and fury I think. Because I was broke. And I was having decent success in open world, running solo on a NB. Good players stomped me of course, but overall I could hang on the server. That flat out wouldn't cut it on EU. I wouldn't kill 5% of the population there.

I think partly that's due to way lower population on EU, so the players that PvP has retained for the most part are ones more invested in it, so know how to build for and play better. You get less people who are trying it or don't play as much.

Even for less skilled players, there's even a dude on EP that tells the entire faction sets to use. So even if they aren't that good, they know what sets carry.

Are there good and bad players on both? Or course. Plenty of people on NA that are ridiculously good, and EU has some awful players. But overall, there's a big gap in level of opponent.

So it'll be the same with other platforms and regions.

Most build videos I see are PC NA and they often make me laugh a bit, because there's no way you could get away with those builds in the PvP I play. They either don't have the damage I know you need, or have no resistance so will get eaten alive by the damage being pumped out by most players, or have no sustain which won't cut it as fights don't end that quick.

And often in the videos, I can't work out what the enemies are doing. They don't heal, buff or put pressure on. PvP doesn't look like that to me. I come across those players for sure, but not 6 of them at a time.

I'm not calling people or servers out. Like I said, there's reason that quality changes. PC has the biggest player base, so with that comes even more casuals. But my experience has shown me that quality does change.

Anyway, to make my post relevant to the topic, some of they builds/way to play sorc that I see mentioned, won't last two seconds in the PvP I know. They'll kill very little and die very quick.

Do you realize that console meta is like several patches behind PC? 4-5 months ago there was an influx of console transfers on PC NA and people were literally using sets that nobody runs on PC because there are better options.

The average pug on PC maybe worse, but the top tier players on PC definitely have better builds.

I've been with you on most things right up til the secret builds in a world of very few even decent sets and the internet existing

StaticWave · February 2023

ForumBully wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Same main sets as my normal stamsorc build but with Chudan and Ice staff back bar:

Fully buffed with pots and CP, no continuous. Essence thief adds another 500-800 recovery and 10% damage done on top. Pen is around 21k fully buffed with Major/Minor Breach and Cwep pen. Daedric Trickery gives Major Expedition/Vitality/Mending/Heroism/Protection. Can always drop it for more damage but I doubt it's necessary. The only thing missing is a burst heal, but next patch with HP scaling Hardened Ward I can drop Bound Aegis for that (Shield is way better than blocking).

As you can see, it is not that hard to come up with a build that still has the magsorc playstyle but better. Whether you want to do that or not is your choice.

I'm sorry, but I can't take this build seriously as an open world option. Less than 18k physical resistance in the current meta is just asking to get 1 shot unless you have well over 40k health. Especially on PC EU where builds/bugs are exploited as soon as they are discovered and performance forces tankiness because skills still don't work reliably.
Most "squishy" builds are currently running buffed, 25k+ armor, regular builds at 30k+ and tanks at 35k+.

I know this build won't work, I've tried similar builds in the past (even back when resto was strong and fixed our healing issues), but buffed resistances that low without sea-serpents and 4 defensive blue CP just screams gank me.

Are you telling me how my build works? I have a youtube channel with 1vX videos using this build for 3+ patches… Sets are unchanged, just abilities…

I'm sure it works for you on PC NA where lag, skill failure and all the other bugs are much less prevalent due to the server upgrades, but on PC EU where I play, I have ran very similar builds and they did not work at all, the lag is far too punishing, the builds in pvp are different and much tankier and as I said in my post, any time an exploit, bug or OP build is found it is immediately abused so running around with barely 21k resistances in openworld cyrodiil just doesn't cut it unless you're part of a group that can carry that low defense.
It becomes a DPS race and since the build effectively has no armor, it always loses that race except against very bad players.

I’ve always used the build even before server upgrades. I wouldn’t post the build if it wasn’t field tested.

And I did say that it wasn't only the server performance being the difference between your build working for you and it not working for me.

There's a huge difference between EU and NA pvp, more so than NA players like to admit. I've watched players from both servers, played on both servers and have friends that have played very high level pvp on both servers and every time it's come back as EU is much harder to run squishy builds on due to multiple factors, everyone being much tankier, many more players exploiting broken/bugged/OP builds, more/larger zergs that have no chill, less mediocre players, server performance and other factors such as playstyles.

Don't take this as "you're a bad player" because that is definitely not what I'm trying to say or infer, it is only meant to point out that there are many differences between the servers and players and what works for someone on 1 server won't work for someone else on another server, or even on the same server due to many different factors.

People massively overlook skill/knowledge difference on servers.

I started on Xbox EU and moved to NA. The difference is night and day. I know Adam Lad plays EU (who is one of the top mag sorcs on the server) and I think he plays NA so can probably comment.

For whatever reason, EU is a lot harder to run around solo. I find there to be overall a better quality of player.

When I first moved, I was like 300cp and using battlefield acrobat and fury I think. Because I was broke. And I was having decent success in open world, running solo on a NB. Good players stomped me of course, but overall I could hang on the server. That flat out wouldn't cut it on EU. I wouldn't kill 5% of the population there.

I think partly that's due to way lower population on EU, so the players that PvP has retained for the most part are ones more invested in it, so know how to build for and play better. You get less people who are trying it or don't play as much.

Even for less skilled players, there's even a dude on EP that tells the entire faction sets to use. So even if they aren't that good, they know what sets carry.

Are there good and bad players on both? Or course. Plenty of people on NA that are ridiculously good, and EU has some awful players. But overall, there's a big gap in level of opponent.

So it'll be the same with other platforms and regions.

Most build videos I see are PC NA and they often make me laugh a bit, because there's no way you could get away with those builds in the PvP I play. They either don't have the damage I know you need, or have no resistance so will get eaten alive by the damage being pumped out by most players, or have no sustain which won't cut it as fights don't end that quick.

And often in the videos, I can't work out what the enemies are doing. They don't heal, buff or put pressure on. PvP doesn't look like that to me. I come across those players for sure, but not 6 of them at a time.

I'm not calling people or servers out. Like I said, there's reason that quality changes. PC has the biggest player base, so with that comes even more casuals. But my experience has shown me that quality does change.

Anyway, to make my post relevant to the topic, some of they builds/way to play sorc that I see mentioned, won't last two seconds in the PvP I know. They'll kill very little and die very quick.

Do you realize that console meta is like several patches behind PC? 4-5 months ago there was an influx of console transfers on PC NA and people were literally using sets that nobody runs on PC because there are better options.

The average pug on PC maybe worse, but the top tier players on PC definitely have better builds.

I've been with you on most things right up til the secret builds in a world of very few even decent sets and the internet existing

I'm not talking about secret builds. I'm talking about choice of sets. Apart from the clearly meta sets like Rallying Cry and Mara's Balm and sets that are so stat dense you have to use them, many sets require crunching numbers to decide whether they're good or not. That requires addons like CMX to record fights over and over, which is a PC only thing.

This is not to mention hybridization is meta and idk why many magsorcs still refuse to slot Vigor? Like, why gimp yourself and complain that magsorc is weak when you have options to make yourself so much tankier.

MetallicMonk · February 2023

ForumBully wrote: »

I agree. The less ZOS has to dig through finding out who's great and what build they use, the more likely something might happen. It's already a longshot, but many good ideas have been presented to improve an outdated toolkit.

You are correct but some things that are public are telling info to me like what people are running buildwise, I've seen what some people are running for magsorc builds in this thread and it makes more sense why they think it's underperforming to the extent they think it is.

Just seems impossible to have a discussion about sorc and minor tweaks on the forums everybody wants to make changes that would effect the class massively, either completely changing it's playstyle or making it overperform.

StaticWave · February 2023

Like when I'm theorycrafting a build and I look at my stammagsorc (that's what I call my hybrid sorc), I think "Oh, I have a lot of HoTs, but I don't have a burst heal, so I'm gonna build for more HP so that I don't get bursted down as easily". I'm fixing my weakness, even if it's a bandaid fix.

So when I look at magsorc I think "Oh, magsorc can summon a lot of temporary HP to prevent getting bursted, but it has no healing, so I better slot some heals!" You know what I'd do if I was a magsorc? I'd slot some heals lol.

Vigor + Surge literally fixes a magsorc's weakness. You don't need to shield stack if you can get back to full HP easily. Why don't many magsorcs do that? @MetallicMonk is doing that and he slaps people with it. You don't see him complain too much about magsorc now does he?

Brrrofski · February 2023

StaticWave wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Same main sets as my normal stamsorc build but with Chudan and Ice staff back bar:

Fully buffed with pots and CP, no continuous. Essence thief adds another 500-800 recovery and 10% damage done on top. Pen is around 21k fully buffed with Major/Minor Breach and Cwep pen. Daedric Trickery gives Major Expedition/Vitality/Mending/Heroism/Protection. Can always drop it for more damage but I doubt it's necessary. The only thing missing is a burst heal, but next patch with HP scaling Hardened Ward I can drop Bound Aegis for that (Shield is way better than blocking).

As you can see, it is not that hard to come up with a build that still has the magsorc playstyle but better. Whether you want to do that or not is your choice.

I'm sorry, but I can't take this build seriously as an open world option. Less than 18k physical resistance in the current meta is just asking to get 1 shot unless you have well over 40k health. Especially on PC EU where builds/bugs are exploited as soon as they are discovered and performance forces tankiness because skills still don't work reliably.
Most "squishy" builds are currently running buffed, 25k+ armor, regular builds at 30k+ and tanks at 35k+.

I know this build won't work, I've tried similar builds in the past (even back when resto was strong and fixed our healing issues), but buffed resistances that low without sea-serpents and 4 defensive blue CP just screams gank me.

Are you telling me how my build works? I have a youtube channel with 1vX videos using this build for 3+ patches… Sets are unchanged, just abilities…

I'm sure it works for you on PC NA where lag, skill failure and all the other bugs are much less prevalent due to the server upgrades, but on PC EU where I play, I have ran very similar builds and they did not work at all, the lag is far too punishing, the builds in pvp are different and much tankier and as I said in my post, any time an exploit, bug or OP build is found it is immediately abused so running around with barely 21k resistances in openworld cyrodiil just doesn't cut it unless you're part of a group that can carry that low defense.
It becomes a DPS race and since the build effectively has no armor, it always loses that race except against very bad players.

I’ve always used the build even before server upgrades. I wouldn’t post the build if it wasn’t field tested.

And I did say that it wasn't only the server performance being the difference between your build working for you and it not working for me.

There's a huge difference between EU and NA pvp, more so than NA players like to admit. I've watched players from both servers, played on both servers and have friends that have played very high level pvp on both servers and every time it's come back as EU is much harder to run squishy builds on due to multiple factors, everyone being much tankier, many more players exploiting broken/bugged/OP builds, more/larger zergs that have no chill, less mediocre players, server performance and other factors such as playstyles.

Don't take this as "you're a bad player" because that is definitely not what I'm trying to say or infer, it is only meant to point out that there are many differences between the servers and players and what works for someone on 1 server won't work for someone else on another server, or even on the same server due to many different factors.

People massively overlook skill/knowledge difference on servers.

I started on Xbox EU and moved to NA. The difference is night and day. I know Adam Lad plays EU (who is one of the top mag sorcs on the server) and I think he plays NA so can probably comment.

For whatever reason, EU is a lot harder to run around solo. I find there to be overall a better quality of player.

When I first moved, I was like 300cp and using battlefield acrobat and fury I think. Because I was broke. And I was having decent success in open world, running solo on a NB. Good players stomped me of course, but overall I could hang on the server. That flat out wouldn't cut it on EU. I wouldn't kill 5% of the population there.

I think partly that's due to way lower population on EU, so the players that PvP has retained for the most part are ones more invested in it, so know how to build for and play better. You get less people who are trying it or don't play as much.

Even for less skilled players, there's even a dude on EP that tells the entire faction sets to use. So even if they aren't that good, they know what sets carry.

Are there good and bad players on both? Or course. Plenty of people on NA that are ridiculously good, and EU has some awful players. But overall, there's a big gap in level of opponent.

So it'll be the same with other platforms and regions.

Most build videos I see are PC NA and they often make me laugh a bit, because there's no way you could get away with those builds in the PvP I play. They either don't have the damage I know you need, or have no resistance so will get eaten alive by the damage being pumped out by most players, or have no sustain which won't cut it as fights don't end that quick.

And often in the videos, I can't work out what the enemies are doing. They don't heal, buff or put pressure on. PvP doesn't look like that to me. I come across those players for sure, but not 6 of them at a time.

I'm not calling people or servers out. Like I said, there's reason that quality changes. PC has the biggest player base, so with that comes even more casuals. But my experience has shown me that quality does change.

Anyway, to make my post relevant to the topic, some of they builds/way to play sorc that I see mentioned, won't last two seconds in the PvP I know. They'll kill very little and die very quick.

Do you realize that console meta is like several patches behind PC? 4-5 months ago there was an influx of console transfers on PC NA and people were literally using sets that nobody runs on PC because there are better options.

The average pug on PC maybe worse, but the top tier players on PC definitely have better builds.

Nah, it's not. How would it be?

It's two weeks behind, because pc gets it two weeks earlier...

If people where moving to PC, they played the game enough to know what's going on. So I doubt they were using sets from patches ago.

Brrrofski · February 2023

StaticWave wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

This is all I have, I no longer make videos about this game.

https://youtu.be/OHcjl02gJL0

https://youtu.be/VLTP4a1r1z4

You combo and move like a good player for sure.

But in the first clip in the first vid, you kill a guy that doesn't know how to CC break and a nightblade that does nothing but cloak.

Next clip, they do no damage to you.

Last clip, someone's using whirling blades on you at full health.

Nothing there tells me anything about how good the build is tbh. You could kill those people with any build I'd suspect.

Listen, I'm not bashing you, I'm bashing sorc. Do you play other classes? Surely you notice the difference if you do? Because things I can do on my sorc at the moment pale in comparison to my NB or DK.

And that's me crutching on Mara's Balm on my sorc. I kill plenty of people on it for sure, and have some nice 1vX. But there's too many times where I lose a fight and I know if I was on another class (apart from Templar tbf), I probably would've won it.

I can guarantee you there are hundreds of other vids where I did not make it out alive, even after killing 2-3 of the enemies in a 1vX. There are also clips of me kiting 5-7 people for 5-10 minutes and not dying, but I’m not killing anyone either. I don’t post them on youtube because they are boring to watch.

I cherry pick fights that end up a W for me to post on youtube. This of course involves fighting people much worse than me, but that’s what 1vXing is.

Once I fought a 1v4 with the last one being a semi decent magDk that likes to zerg people down. It took me 10 minutes to kill that DK when he was the last man standing. Would you watch that, or a fight where I can kill everyone in less than 10 minutes?

You don’t have to think the build is good, but I’ve used it in 1v1s, 1vX, BG, and openworld Cyrodiil. It’s done really well for me, and mathematically it’s one of the best builds out there that can satisfy my requirements. I don’t just randomly put sets together and call it. I do a lot of number crunching with CMX and testing my heals against other people before deciding to stick with it. Nothing has come close to what the build can provide for me.

Yes, I play all stamina classes. Stamsorc is weaker than most, and I’ve made many threads asking for sorc buffs if you check my forum profile. What I disagree is the buff direction that many sorc mains are going for.

If the build works for you, that's cool.

But it doesn't cut it on Xbox. You wouldn't have a huge amount of success. I guarantee it.

So back to the point, you can't base what sorc needs just on your experience. Because your experience is nothing like other people's.

StaticWave · February 2023

Brrrofski wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

This is all I have, I no longer make videos about this game.

https://youtu.be/OHcjl02gJL0

https://youtu.be/VLTP4a1r1z4

You combo and move like a good player for sure.

But in the first clip in the first vid, you kill a guy that doesn't know how to CC break and a nightblade that does nothing but cloak.

Next clip, they do no damage to you.

Last clip, someone's using whirling blades on you at full health.

Nothing there tells me anything about how good the build is tbh. You could kill those people with any build I'd suspect.

Listen, I'm not bashing you, I'm bashing sorc. Do you play other classes? Surely you notice the difference if you do? Because things I can do on my sorc at the moment pale in comparison to my NB or DK.

And that's me crutching on Mara's Balm on my sorc. I kill plenty of people on it for sure, and have some nice 1vX. But there's too many times where I lose a fight and I know if I was on another class (apart from Templar tbf), I probably would've won it.

I can guarantee you there are hundreds of other vids where I did not make it out alive, even after killing 2-3 of the enemies in a 1vX. There are also clips of me kiting 5-7 people for 5-10 minutes and not dying, but I’m not killing anyone either. I don’t post them on youtube because they are boring to watch.

I cherry pick fights that end up a W for me to post on youtube. This of course involves fighting people much worse than me, but that’s what 1vXing is.

Once I fought a 1v4 with the last one being a semi decent magDk that likes to zerg people down. It took me 10 minutes to kill that DK when he was the last man standing. Would you watch that, or a fight where I can kill everyone in less than 10 minutes?

You don’t have to think the build is good, but I’ve used it in 1v1s, 1vX, BG, and openworld Cyrodiil. It’s done really well for me, and mathematically it’s one of the best builds out there that can satisfy my requirements. I don’t just randomly put sets together and call it. I do a lot of number crunching with CMX and testing my heals against other people before deciding to stick with it. Nothing has come close to what the build can provide for me.

Yes, I play all stamina classes. Stamsorc is weaker than most, and I’ve made many threads asking for sorc buffs if you check my forum profile. What I disagree is the buff direction that many sorc mains are going for.

If the build works for you, that's cool.

But it doesn't cut it on Xbox. You wouldn't have a huge amount of success. I guarantee it.

So back to the point, you can't base what sorc needs just on your experience. Because your experience is nothing like other people's.

Why would it not cut it?

You're assuming I only fight people who don't know how to build. I also duel with this build against meta builds and top tier players and I'm having success.

The lack of resist is off-set by a 36k HP pool and active blocking. I've dueled a lot of console transfers and most of them don't seem to block quite often. You see, I've dueled so much that my main form of defense is active defense, aka blocking and dodging. I don't need that much resistance. Also, it doesn't really matter if I have 35k armor. A NB will still land a 15k crit Bow, and a DK with Corrosive will ignore armor.

So no, I will do just fine on Xbox. I can guarantee it.

I can absolutely base what sorc needs just on my experience. The thing is, I've done just about every single type of content there is in the game at the highest level, and the experience at the highest level is true across all platforms. If I can use this build and have success against top tier players in a 1v1 and also have success in OW PvP, then it's a good build, unless you're also saying the top tier players on PC NA are also worse than on Xbox?

StaticWave · February 2023

Brrrofski wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Same main sets as my normal stamsorc build but with Chudan and Ice staff back bar:

Fully buffed with pots and CP, no continuous. Essence thief adds another 500-800 recovery and 10% damage done on top. Pen is around 21k fully buffed with Major/Minor Breach and Cwep pen. Daedric Trickery gives Major Expedition/Vitality/Mending/Heroism/Protection. Can always drop it for more damage but I doubt it's necessary. The only thing missing is a burst heal, but next patch with HP scaling Hardened Ward I can drop Bound Aegis for that (Shield is way better than blocking).

As you can see, it is not that hard to come up with a build that still has the magsorc playstyle but better. Whether you want to do that or not is your choice.

I'm sorry, but I can't take this build seriously as an open world option. Less than 18k physical resistance in the current meta is just asking to get 1 shot unless you have well over 40k health. Especially on PC EU where builds/bugs are exploited as soon as they are discovered and performance forces tankiness because skills still don't work reliably.
Most "squishy" builds are currently running buffed, 25k+ armor, regular builds at 30k+ and tanks at 35k+.

I know this build won't work, I've tried similar builds in the past (even back when resto was strong and fixed our healing issues), but buffed resistances that low without sea-serpents and 4 defensive blue CP just screams gank me.

Are you telling me how my build works? I have a youtube channel with 1vX videos using this build for 3+ patches… Sets are unchanged, just abilities…

I'm sure it works for you on PC NA where lag, skill failure and all the other bugs are much less prevalent due to the server upgrades, but on PC EU where I play, I have ran very similar builds and they did not work at all, the lag is far too punishing, the builds in pvp are different and much tankier and as I said in my post, any time an exploit, bug or OP build is found it is immediately abused so running around with barely 21k resistances in openworld cyrodiil just doesn't cut it unless you're part of a group that can carry that low defense.
It becomes a DPS race and since the build effectively has no armor, it always loses that race except against very bad players.

I’ve always used the build even before server upgrades. I wouldn’t post the build if it wasn’t field tested.

And I did say that it wasn't only the server performance being the difference between your build working for you and it not working for me.

There's a huge difference between EU and NA pvp, more so than NA players like to admit. I've watched players from both servers, played on both servers and have friends that have played very high level pvp on both servers and every time it's come back as EU is much harder to run squishy builds on due to multiple factors, everyone being much tankier, many more players exploiting broken/bugged/OP builds, more/larger zergs that have no chill, less mediocre players, server performance and other factors such as playstyles.

Don't take this as "you're a bad player" because that is definitely not what I'm trying to say or infer, it is only meant to point out that there are many differences between the servers and players and what works for someone on 1 server won't work for someone else on another server, or even on the same server due to many different factors.

People massively overlook skill/knowledge difference on servers.

I started on Xbox EU and moved to NA. The difference is night and day. I know Adam Lad plays EU (who is one of the top mag sorcs on the server) and I think he plays NA so can probably comment.

For whatever reason, EU is a lot harder to run around solo. I find there to be overall a better quality of player.

When I first moved, I was like 300cp and using battlefield acrobat and fury I think. Because I was broke. And I was having decent success in open world, running solo on a NB. Good players stomped me of course, but overall I could hang on the server. That flat out wouldn't cut it on EU. I wouldn't kill 5% of the population there.

I think partly that's due to way lower population on EU, so the players that PvP has retained for the most part are ones more invested in it, so know how to build for and play better. You get less people who are trying it or don't play as much.

Even for less skilled players, there's even a dude on EP that tells the entire faction sets to use. So even if they aren't that good, they know what sets carry.

Are there good and bad players on both? Or course. Plenty of people on NA that are ridiculously good, and EU has some awful players. But overall, there's a big gap in level of opponent.

So it'll be the same with other platforms and regions.

Most build videos I see are PC NA and they often make me laugh a bit, because there's no way you could get away with those builds in the PvP I play. They either don't have the damage I know you need, or have no resistance so will get eaten alive by the damage being pumped out by most players, or have no sustain which won't cut it as fights don't end that quick.

And often in the videos, I can't work out what the enemies are doing. They don't heal, buff or put pressure on. PvP doesn't look like that to me. I come across those players for sure, but not 6 of them at a time.

I'm not calling people or servers out. Like I said, there's reason that quality changes. PC has the biggest player base, so with that comes even more casuals. But my experience has shown me that quality does change.

Anyway, to make my post relevant to the topic, some of they builds/way to play sorc that I see mentioned, won't last two seconds in the PvP I know. They'll kill very little and die very quick.

Do you realize that console meta is like several patches behind PC? 4-5 months ago there was an influx of console transfers on PC NA and people were literally using sets that nobody runs on PC because there are better options.

The average pug on PC maybe worse, but the top tier players on PC definitely have better builds.

Nah, it's not. How would it be?

It's two weeks behind, because pc gets it two weeks earlier...

If people where moving to PC, they played the game enough to know what's going on. So I doubt they were using sets from patches ago.

Because one, some reason many people on console refuse to run certain sets because it's "cheese", even though the set is clearly a better option than what they have. And two, people on console just don't try new things. Why do stamsorcs on console still run Dizzying Swing when Bow sorc/ranged sorc/DW sorc are much better?

StaticWave · February 2023

PC EU is usually the first place to come up with meta builds because the players there just don't care about honor and run the cheesiest stuff possible. I've had a fair share of experience playing on PC EU and can confirm this. The next platform is PC NA. We just copy EU builds. Then comes console players who are still left behind stuck in the past lol.

There's a reason many PC players mock console builds. It's not because console players are mechanically bad. It's because they run outdated builds.

AdamLAD · February 2023

There's 5 people on my server that I'd consider TOP and I don't mean just good mean beyond phenomenal. Entire zergs day in and day out just straight up struggle to fight them consistently and can survive for a long time upawrd of 30 mins whilst taking people out. Some zerg leaders have even told these players we don't even want to fight you. I've played alongside 4 of them. One of them plays numerous classes and asked me for a build for mag sorc. I give him a few options. He also tried his own. He just straight-up said its absolutely terrible how bad mag sorc is compared to other classes.

Not just that I've had numerous casual players message me saying how on earth are you even doing anything on mag sorcerer using shields.

Across the board the class is terrible. Like I stated previously normally there's a huge divide in opinion when it comes to balance, when it comes to casual players and top players. But from top to bottom and everything in between all I can see if people agreeing the class is truly awful.

StaticWave · February 2023

AdamLAD wrote: »

There's 5 people on my server that I'd consider TOP and I don't mean just good mean beyond phenomenal. Entire zergs day in and day out just straight up struggle to fight them consistently and can survive for a long time upawrd of 30 mins whilst taking people out. Some zerg leaders have even told these players we don't even want to fight you. I've played alongside 4 of them. One of them plays numerous classes and asked me for a build for mag sorc. I give him a few options. He also tried his own. He just straight-up said its absolutely terrible how bad mag sorc is compared to other classes.

Not just that I've had numerous casual players message me saying how on earth are you even doing anything on mag sorcerer using shields.

Across the board the class is terrible. Like I stated previously normally there's a huge divide in opinion when it comes to balance, when it comes to casual players and top players. But from top to bottom and everything in between all I can see if people agreeing the class is truly awful.

I still don't understand why you want buffs to shield stacking.

AdamLAD · February 2023

StaticWave wrote: »

AdamLAD wrote: »

There's 5 people on my server that I'd consider TOP and I don't mean just good mean beyond phenomenal. Entire zergs day in and day out just straight up struggle to fight them consistently and can survive for a long time upawrd of 30 mins whilst taking people out. Some zerg leaders have even told these players we don't even want to fight you. I've played alongside 4 of them. One of them plays numerous classes and asked me for a build for mag sorc. I give him a few options. He also tried his own. He just straight-up said its absolutely terrible how bad mag sorc is compared to other classes.

Not just that I've had numerous casual players message me saying how on earth are you even doing anything on mag sorcerer using shields.

Across the board the class is terrible. Like I stated previously normally there's a huge divide in opinion when it comes to balance, when it comes to casual players and top players. But from top to bottom and everything in between all I can see if people agreeing the class is truly awful.

I still don't understand why you want buffs to shield stacking.

I thought after all this it was blatantly obvious. Sorcerers have dropped wards because they are awful. They are absolute paper and cost way to much. Shields are by far the weakest and most expensive form of defence in the game. They are due a buff. Not to the extent of what they were in the past before murkmire. But they definitely need a buff. Why don't you want them buffed ?

Brrrofski · February 2023

StaticWave wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

This is all I have, I no longer make videos about this game.

https://youtu.be/OHcjl02gJL0

https://youtu.be/VLTP4a1r1z4

You combo and move like a good player for sure.

But in the first clip in the first vid, you kill a guy that doesn't know how to CC break and a nightblade that does nothing but cloak.

Next clip, they do no damage to you.

Last clip, someone's using whirling blades on you at full health.

Nothing there tells me anything about how good the build is tbh. You could kill those people with any build I'd suspect.

Listen, I'm not bashing you, I'm bashing sorc. Do you play other classes? Surely you notice the difference if you do? Because things I can do on my sorc at the moment pale in comparison to my NB or DK.

And that's me crutching on Mara's Balm on my sorc. I kill plenty of people on it for sure, and have some nice 1vX. But there's too many times where I lose a fight and I know if I was on another class (apart from Templar tbf), I probably would've won it.

I can guarantee you there are hundreds of other vids where I did not make it out alive, even after killing 2-3 of the enemies in a 1vX. There are also clips of me kiting 5-7 people for 5-10 minutes and not dying, but I’m not killing anyone either. I don’t post them on youtube because they are boring to watch.

I cherry pick fights that end up a W for me to post on youtube. This of course involves fighting people much worse than me, but that’s what 1vXing is.

Once I fought a 1v4 with the last one being a semi decent magDk that likes to zerg people down. It took me 10 minutes to kill that DK when he was the last man standing. Would you watch that, or a fight where I can kill everyone in less than 10 minutes?

You don’t have to think the build is good, but I’ve used it in 1v1s, 1vX, BG, and openworld Cyrodiil. It’s done really well for me, and mathematically it’s one of the best builds out there that can satisfy my requirements. I don’t just randomly put sets together and call it. I do a lot of number crunching with CMX and testing my heals against other people before deciding to stick with it. Nothing has come close to what the build can provide for me.

Yes, I play all stamina classes. Stamsorc is weaker than most, and I’ve made many threads asking for sorc buffs if you check my forum profile. What I disagree is the buff direction that many sorc mains are going for.

If the build works for you, that's cool.

But it doesn't cut it on Xbox. You wouldn't have a huge amount of success. I guarantee it.

So back to the point, you can't base what sorc needs just on your experience. Because your experience is nothing like other people's.

Why would it not cut it?

You're assuming I only fight people who don't know how to build. I also duel with this build against meta builds and top tier players and I'm having success.

The lack of resist is off-set by a 36k HP pool and active blocking. I've dueled a lot of console transfers and most of them don't seem to block quite often. You see, I've dueled so much that my main form of defense is active defense, aka blocking and dodging. I don't need that much resistance. Also, it doesn't really matter if I have 35k armor. A NB will still land a 15k crit Bow, and a DK with Corrosive will ignore armor.

So no, I will do just fine on Xbox. I can guarantee it.

I can absolutely base what sorc needs just on my experience. The thing is, I've done just about every single type of content there is in the game at the highest level, and the experience at the highest level is true across all platforms. If I can use this build and have success against top tier players in a 1v1 and also have success in OW PvP, then it's a good build, unless you're also saying the top tier players on PC NA are also worse than on Xbox?

All you've shown in open world if you fighting players that don't really know what they're doing. Not healing, panic cloaking, executes at full health etc. Dueling is almost a different form of PvP too. I think sorc is decent in dueling. So it's a different point.

To be clear, this isn't about YOU. I'm not doubting you as a player, please don't think I am. You might do well. I do well on a sorc still. But put us both on a NB or DK and we'd both undoubtedly do better. I swap between characters often and I instantly notice the difference.

All I'm disputing is that you think sorc is ok, and is good enough that you can even run that setup. When I think you can't say "I do ok, sorc is ok". Especially considering you don't know the different experiences that people on other servers have.

I'm not saying the best players on any server is better than others. Only that some have more casuals, so the overall open world PvP experience is easier.

I haven't played pc. But I've watched countless streams for hundreds of hours, and what they fight on AVERAGE is not the same as my experience.