Billium813 wrote: »

Arthtur wrote: »

I think class spammable should be stronger than weapon spammable BUT weapon spammable should be stronger with ability alterning weapon (arena weapons). But most of those is bad so... oh well...

I would tend to agree with that. Since all classes have access to all weapon skills, it feels like class abilities (when applicable) should be stronger and weapon skills should compliment, not be strictly better.

But I think ZOS's efforts of late are to remove that "strictly better" category and make everything a grey area. In some encounters Flurry will be better. Sometimes Jabs will be better. Maybe 1 DPS should say "I'll handle the ads with Jabs, you have Flurry so you focus the boss". Idk if this is good or bad, but I do know that we are all so used to being the best at everything that it does suck to now have situations where others are better.

In other MMO games I have played you always bring along AoE DPS and Single Target DPS. You usually 50/50 spilt. So in dungeons it would be 1 of each typically. The reason for this is that the AOE DPS would help burn down adds and the single target focus on killing the boss. There was content where sometimes groups brought along just AoE DPS or Single Target because of how the content was designed. You can try mixing a bit of both on builds but your parsing won't be as high and any good DPS worth a dime knows that they need both AoE and Single target damage in their setup.

From experience using one sparring target to test DPS is not true DPS. You should be using 3 on average with 2 of them being the 3-6M target and the third one being the trail target. Try using that setup to test DPS and see how well your damage actually is. The point of this is that many players who rely on their light attack weaving will be surprised by how much of a DPS loss they actually take when dealing with more than one target.

IMO boss encounters should contain more adds to encourage more AoE builds.

virtus753 wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

You view Jabs as single target spammable cause all you do is stand in front of a Target Dummy or mob a Trials boss all day!

Please stop repeatedly throwing around unfounded ad hominems about how much time we spend on dummies as opposed to actual content.

I'm not sure how you find this assertion unfounded. The OP concerning a drop in Jabs DPS percentage is purely based on Jabs parsing on a trials dummy. The myriad of dismissive comments since have been plagued with "I don't care about the fact that it can hit multiple targets, the primary damage is all I care about!". Those takes on Jabs are PURELY based on single target damage. Like those metrics gathered from parsing dummies and trials bosses, where you stand in one spot and parse repeatedly on a single target.

Where were the arguments that Jabs being AOE doesn't matter through the perspective of trash pulls or bosses with multiple targets? There weren't any because then they would have to acknowledge the DPS gains Jabs has in those situations OVER Flurry.

Billium813 wrote: »

Thinking about this more, I wonder if an improvement to Jabs may be the following:

Current:

Puncturing Strikes -

Launch a relentless assault, striking enemies in front of you four times with your Aedric spear. The spear deals 844 Magic Damage to the closest enemy and 324 Magic Damage to all other enemies.

New:

Puncturing Strikes -

Launch a relentless assault, striking enemies in front of you four times with your Aedric spear. The spear deals 520 Magic Damage to the closest enemy. If there are other enemies, they are dealt 324 Magic Damage. Otherwise, the closest enemy is dealt an additional 324 Magic Damage.

Now, these numbers may be open to adjustment, but the theory is that with single targets, the damage is directed back to the primary target. Think of a spear being thrust 4 times, if there is only 1 target, then all force would be directed there. However, when there are additional targets, it's spread around as you need to redirect. Perhaps this may help elevate some of this AOE vs Single Target arguments and make this not as neutered for Trials and Dummies?
I still think the utility of being able to hit multiple targets must be included in determining the skills true effectiveness, but it is disappointing that a raw nerf to the skill will basically make it unusable in some situations (like how it'll just be bad for most Trials applications).

Sorry, but I have to disagree here.
It's not like templar is the only class with cleave dmg built in.
Shalks and Blastbones also deal aoe damage, however backlash is pure single target.
Templar cleave mainly comes from jabs.
See, how different classes can achieve the same thing, but in different ways?
This is why spreadsheet balancing is bad, beacuse it often fails to account for various mechanics.

Not sure if this was said, but Winters Revenge is actually 12s on PTS, back to live duration. Notes were wrong.

Side note I'd like to mention in the arguments about Jabs vs Flurry, Flurry also has an execute and damage scaling per hit component. Damage can be equalized for other classes without making each rotation feel the same, variations in duration etc can resolve that.

Stx wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

Sorry, but I have to disagree here.
It's not like templar is the only class with cleave dmg built in.
Shalks and Blastbones also deal aoe damage, however backlash is pure single target.
Templar cleave mainly comes from jabs.
See, how different classes can achieve the same thing, but in different ways?
This is why spreadsheet balancing is bad, beacuse it often fails to account for various mechanics.

I'm not sure what you disagree with. You don't approve of Jabs hitting harder if it's single target, but hitting weaker and more spread out if there are multiple targets? I don't see a specific argument or issue you disagree with. Ya, lots of classes have AOE abilities, what's your point?

His point is that classes are not the same, they all have power spread over different abilities, so your attempts to compare flurry to jabs in a vacuum are flawed.

Haha thanks. Yes pretty much my point.

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

No Templar would EVER run Flurry. Why would you?

Templars don't need a reason to run Flurry. Class skills should be strictly better than their generic counterparts.

This is my preferred direction as well. There is a minor issue in that every class has decent spammables now, for both mag and stam, so nobody really had a use for weapon spammables. When was the last time any class used Flurry on live? Most players run dual wield front bar and still act like the skill does not exist. It should have a niche, but being the superior version of jabs for single target is too broad.

All comments (and OP) here show great knowledge and finesse, but, to go back to the basics, I tried to insert Rapid Strikes in my rotation in multiple ways, with or without Jabs (I'm speaking of stamplar, more about this presently). The result has been always the same: some, almost irrelevant, loss against trash mobs, but a GREAT loss against bosses with huge amount of health.
To this you must add that magplars still have a very hard time for sustain when using DW on frontbar, more so now that overall damage is diminished. Why the problem of sustain for hybrids has never been addressed seriously is beyond me to understand.

In a word, U35 will make gaming harder and a tad more miserable both for new and end-content templars. I will not be surprised if, in due time, some to-be-paid-for solution will be offered, like a mythic or drops/crafts in chapter zones or whatever.

sbr32 wrote: »

Like ZoS you are trying to solve the spreadsheet problem while Jaz is trying to explain the Are Templars Fun To Play problem.

That's basically the abstract for this entire patch. "No fun, only spreadsheet! Crippling nerfs will continue until morale improves."

Faulgor wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

Jabs is not an aoe spammable, it is are of effect but only does it's full dmg to the closest target.

You are aware that "AOE" stands for Area of Effect, correct? It may not be a circle, but the area implies multiple targets are hit and Jabs area of effect is large enough that it frequently effects many targets. The additional damage it does to secondary targets is not nothing and contributes to overall DPS. That IS its utility! As much as the additional effects other skills do, Jabs hits multiple targets. It cannot be discounted, especially if you are comparing raw DPS totals

Firstmep wrote: »

The idea that flurry should out damage it since it's pure single target just doesnt sit well with me.

Flurry should out damage Jabs... in a single target comparison. Otherwise, why run Flurry? If Jabs hits the same damage as Flurry, but CAN hit more targets, why run flurry? Now, obviously there are more factors to consider (resource costs, procs, additional utility like healing or snares). But in a straight up damage comparison, they are not (and arguably should not be) the same.

Firstmep wrote: »

Being forced to run the exact same attack as everyone else is not my idea of fun.

No one is forcing you to do anything. I think you may find that Jabs is still good for some content (like dungeon running) but now worse for other content (like dummy parsing and trials)

Okay so show me the templar single target spammable? Dark flare? Lol.

Jabs is the templar spammable, period. It should not be worse damage in any scenario than rapid strikes. Templars have been using jabs for 8 years. I'm glad the 2 templar mains who want to use some other spammable will be happy, but this change is going to *** a whole lot of people off.

By your logic, surprise attack and molten whip should both be nerfed because they outperform rapid strikes.

Nah it actually used to suck for a really long time.

Guess we are back to ESO classic so many people have been asking for!

Except, back then, Sorcs were awesome. Templars sucked because of resource issues, but Sorcs were amazing, Nightblades were amazing, DKs were hilariously broken... I guess, they're broken after this patch too, but not in a good kind of way.

This is really weird.
#1 one single skill should not define a class - period
#2 I don't want to say the nerf to jabs is "good" or "bad" - maybe slightly over the top? But to fix this, look for smart solutions instead of denying reality. And reality is: There are skills that just were massively overloaded for far too long - jabs belong to this category. Where is the sweetspot however? That is the interesting question and the point the combat team should arrive at
#3 templar has a lot of interesting, unique and useful skills aside jab. To me the templar is a holy themed melee brawler with solid sustain and easy playstyle. However, he can be pretty fun when played from range too - and this might be even more interesting after the patch.

So yea, for me the major problems with the upcoming patch are more overall nerfed damage and some lack in refinement. I like weaving with new jabs. But the animation blending is not perfect. Sound is fine though. Rapid strikes though .. I hate the sound effect, it just doesn't fit the animation. The animation by itsself though is "okish"?
Anyway, producing high damage will be more difficult for everyone. Templar is - relatively seen - still on the better side in regards to spamables. I mean it hasn't arrived at Warden level of crappiness at least.

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

It should have a niche

In theory they fill gaps in class toolkits without overshadowing their direct class counterparts. The weapon lines could definitely use some love, especially in PvP, where 2h is pretty much extinct and the only weapon skill you see much also happens to be the only reliable execute in PvP.

These changes are deliberately ignoring the community it feels like.