Styxius wrote: »

Flurry is the #1 spammable for pretty much everyone. It out DPS's Jabs by about 10-15% Since Jabs no longer is primarily to carry the burning light procs it is just significantly weaker now

I have heard this a lot and I just want to remind people that Jabs is an AOE that hits multiple targets and Flurry is a single target skill. In the sterile environment of a single parse dummy, it will (should?) definitely out perform Jabs.

I assume this is one of the reasons they are nerfing Jabs. They are incorporating the AOE into its effectiveness so that the skills perform different functions (single target vs AOE). They want people to have to make a decision and there not just be one clear choice.

I don't necessarily agree with this decision personally. I think class vs weapon skills should be a clear decision when they perform similar functions (otherwise, classes lose their unique identity). But I understand that its more healthy for the game for class and weapon skills to be mixed in usage and everyone's bars not to just be filled with class skills cause they are obviously the best. Its a tough balance to be sure. Also, I hate the idea that ZOS might want us to constantly keep swapping skills based on the encounters. That only increases the skill gap.

Jabs is not an aoe spammable, it is are of effect but only does it's full dmg to the closest target.
The idea that flurry should out damage it since it's pure single target just doesnt sit well with me.
Not to mention, let's say we run rapid strikes for single target, well they just killed of another unique thing for templar.
Like can we stop with the freaking spreadsheets? This is an effing video GAME. It should be fun.
Being forced to run the exact same attack as everyone else is not my idea of fun.

Billium813 wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

I dislike the idea of 'It does a bit of AoE, so it does less single target' in principle already.

As a templar main, it does a bit more than "a bit of AoE". When you have a large trash group or boss ads, the AOE damage adds a considerable amount of DPS to the skill and contributes to not being overrun / CC.

Jazraena wrote: »

It's primary function is as spammable; if it's failing as that any minor secondary effects are mostly irrelevant to me.

I would like to debate what makes a skill "spammable" in the first place. Is it the resource cost only? The animation duration? But I digress. My main point is that an AOE "spammable" cannot be 1:1 compared vs a single target "spammable". All "spammables" are not created equal.

A more apt comparison would maybe be Jabs vs Whirlwind.

Like ZoS you are trying to solve the spreadsheet problem while Jaz is trying to explain the Are Templars Fun To Play problem.

Firstmep wrote: »

Jabs is not an aoe spammable, it is are of effect but only does it's full dmg to the closest target.

You are aware that "AOE" stands for Area of Effect, correct? It may not be a circle, but the area implies multiple targets are hit and Jabs area of effect is large enough that it frequently effects many targets. The additional damage it does to secondary targets is not nothing and contributes to overall DPS. That IS its utility! As much as the additional effects other skills do, Jabs hits multiple targets. It cannot be discounted, especially if you are comparing raw DPS totals

Firstmep wrote: »

The idea that flurry should out damage it since it's pure single target just doesnt sit well with me.

Flurry should out damage Jabs... in a single target comparison. Otherwise, why run Flurry? If Jabs hits the same damage as Flurry, but CAN hit more targets, why run flurry? Now, obviously there are more factors to consider (resource costs, procs, additional utility like healing or snares). But in a straight up damage comparison, they are not (and arguably should not be) the same.

Firstmep wrote: »

Being forced to run the exact same attack as everyone else is not my idea of fun.

No one is forcing you to do anything. I think you may find that Jabs is still good for some content (like dungeon running) but now worse for other content (like dummy parsing and trials)

Billium813 wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

Jabs is not an aoe spammable, it is are of effect but only does it's full dmg to the closest target.

You are aware that "AOE" stands for Area of Effect, correct? It may not be a circle, but the area implies multiple targets are hit and Jabs area of effect is large enough that it frequently effects many targets. The additional damage it does to secondary targets is not nothing and contributes to overall DPS. That IS its utility! As much as the additional effects other skills do, Jabs hits multiple targets. It cannot be discounted, especially if you are comparing raw DPS totals

Firstmep wrote: »

The idea that flurry should out damage it since it's pure single target just doesnt sit well with me.

Flurry should out damage Jabs... in a single target comparison. Otherwise, why run Flurry? If Jabs hits the same damage as Flurry, but CAN hit more targets, why run flurry? Now, obviously there are more factors to consider (resource costs, procs, additional utility like healing or snares). But in a straight up damage comparison, they are not (and arguably should not be) the same.

Firstmep wrote: »

Being forced to run the exact same attack as everyone else is not my idea of fun.

No one is forcing you to do anything. I think you may find that Jabs is still good for some content (like dungeon running) but now worse for other content (like dummy parsing and trials)

Okay so show me the templar single target spammable? Dark flare? Lol.

Jabs is the templar spammable, period. It should not be worse damage in any scenario than rapid strikes. Templars have been using jabs for 8 years. I'm glad the 2 templar mains who want to use some other spammable will be happy, but this change is going to *** a whole lot of people off.

By your logic, surprise attack and molten whip should both be nerfed because they outperform rapid strikes.

Stx wrote: »

Okay so show me the templar single target spammable? Dark flare? Lol.

Jabs is the templar spammable, period.

Who ever said they have to have a single target spammable? Classes and their abilities can have strengths and weaknesses.

Stx wrote: »

It should not be worse damage in any scenario than rapid strikes

Why? Try to divorce your personal feelings and make an articulable argument for why Jabs should always do more damage than Flurry

Stx wrote: »

By your logic, surprise attack and molten whip should both be nerfed because they outperform rapid strikes.

I'm not sure I see your point. From a pure damage perspective, they already do comparable damage in the tool tips, yes?

Veiled Strike - Slash an enemy, dealing 2323 Magic Damage.

Lava Whip - Lash an enemy with flame, dealing 2323 Flame Damage.

Flurry - Flood an enemy with steel, battering them with five consecutive attacks that each deal 332 Physical Damage. The final hit deals 300% more damage.

((4 * 332) + (332 * 3)) = 2324

Jabs is our class IDENTITY. Period.

OBJnoob wrote: »

The fact that some people have been jabbing away for 8 years is the problem.

Why is it a problem, exactly, that people have been using their class spammable for 8 years? Especially when that class spammable is the only strong point of the class?

A class spammable is the quintessential piece of class identity, supplemented by utility skills and DoTs and any sets that support the class. In PvE templar has long been severely lacking in anything except that decently strong spammable. They gave away the last bit of the group utility that we brought when they gave Power of the Light's Minor Breach to Pierce Armor and every physical damage skill. (On the one hand, I'm glad they did, since it greatly helps unoptimized groups, but on the other hand they didn't give us any compensation in terms of what we bring to the group, making us redundant.) The only unique thing templar now brings to a group composition in PvE is Minor Sorcery. For that, bring a healplar or tankplar - or better yet, forget Minor Sorcery and bring a DK for Zen, Stagger, and Minor Brutality, for which you only need your magdps to switch their jewelry glyphs, since all other sources of weapon/spell damage and their modifiers are purely hybridized. That's not a slight against DKs and most definitely not a call to nerf them - it is a plea to give templars the same amount of utility within a group. Currently the best that can be said of us in terms of special set usage is that we can make great use of Plaguebreak to clear trash. That's not particularly flattering in PvE - or particularly useful in boss fights, where the majority of time in combat is spent.

And to return to the matter of spammables, have we forgotten the Flurry meta so quickly? The class-agnostic meta the devs specifically said they did not want and yet gave to us anyhow? The problem for the past 8 years has not been players using their class spammables. It's been the devs' struggle to make their spreadsheets match their vision. They don't want a class-agnostic meta, but now we're even more generic than ever before. They don't want to think in terms of mag or stam, but our damage still scales off only the higher of the two, forcing us to go all in on one to do competent damage for endgame content. They want more accessibility, but they're about to take that away from the majority of players. (I've seen a tiny handful of higher parses, depending on build, and a lot of much lower ones. That doesn't make things more accessible. It does the opposite.) They want easier rotations so we're not glued to our timers, but now we have a mess of skill durations that means even more eyes on the skill bars more of the time to try to claw back some of the damage they're taking away. They want us to "play how we like" - but not when that means learning their game so well that some players do "obscene" damage. Theoretically they should want us to complete content, but these changes risk pushing some content into the territory of literally impossible (Planesbreaker, Swashbuckler). Let's not raise the issue of whether any of this is more fun - since, to be fair to the devs, they did not mention that as part of their vision at all.

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

What would be so bad about doing the same single target dps, with the supposedly uniquely powerful class version getting an AoE component to it?

If Jabs did the same single target DAMAGE as Flurry. No Templar would EVER run Flurry. Why would you? Jabs does the same thing PLUS has the ability to hit more targets sometimes (like if you position correctly, or have a good tank with Void Bash, or the boss has lots of ads)

NOW, if Flurry had a secondary effect that could be comparable to the AOE damage benefit you gain from Jabs... then we could have something to debate! But it doesn't!
We could debate the usefulness of a 3 second stun from Veiled Strike vs the Jabs AOE damage. Or the Off Balance benefit of Lava Whip vs Jabs AOE damage. But we aren't doing that. You are all just discrediting the additional damage like it shouldn't factor into the raw DPS numbers. You view Jabs as single target spammable cause all you do is stand in front of a Target Dummy or mob a Trials boss all day! One skill doesn't have to fit all the content just cause you've been using it for 8 years!

Here's my take, universal skills should not be more powerful than class skills EVER. Templars are mad because they should be. Any class with a spammable better then Flurry are better than Templars in the Spam game, which is really bad considering Jabs is the defacto king spammable since forever.

virtus753 wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

The fact that some people have been jabbing away for 8 years is the problem.

Why is it a problem, exactly, that people have been using their class spammable for 8 years? Especially when that class spammable is the only strong point of the class?

A class spammable is the quintessential piece of class identity, supplemented by utility skills and DoTs and any sets that support the class. In PvE templar has long been severely lacking in anything except that decently strong spammable. They gave away the last bit of the group utility that we brought when they gave Power of the Light's Minor Breach to Pierce Armor and every physical damage skill. (On the one hand, I'm glad they did, since it greatly helps unoptimized groups, but on the other hand they didn't give us any compensation in terms of what we bring to the group, making us redundant.) The only unique thing templar now brings to a group composition in PvE is Minor Sorcery. For that, bring a healplar or tankplar - or better yet, forget Minor Sorcery and bring a DK for Zen, Stagger, and Minor Brutality, for which you only need your magdps to switch their jewelry glyphs, since all other sources of weapon/spell damage and their modifiers are purely hybridized. That's not a slight against DKs and most definitely not a call to nerf them - it is a plea to give templars the same amount of utility within a group. Currently the best that can be said of us in terms of special set usage is that we can make great use of Plaguebreak to clear trash. That's not particularly flattering in PvE - or particularly useful in boss fights, where the majority of time in combat is spent.

And to return to the matter of spammables, have we forgotten the Flurry meta so quickly? The class-agnostic meta the devs specifically said they did not want and yet gave to us anyhow? The problem for the past 8 years has not been players using their class spammables. It's been the devs' struggle to make their spreadsheets match their vision. They don't want a class-agnostic meta, but now we're even more generic than ever before. They don't want to think in terms of mag or stam, but our damage still scales off only the higher of the two, forcing us to go all in on one to do competent damage for endgame content. They want more accessibility, but they're about to take that away from the majority of players. (I've seen a tiny handful of higher parses, depending on build, and a lot of much lower ones. That doesn't make things more accessible. It does the opposite.) They want easier rotations so we're not glued to our timers, but now we have a mess of skill durations that means even more eyes on the skill bars more of the time to try to claw back some of the damage they're taking away. They want us to "play how we like" - but not when that means learning their game so well that some players do "obscene" damage. Theoretically they should want us to complete content, but these changes risk pushing some content into the territory of literally impossible (Planesbreaker, Swashbuckler). Let's not raise the issue of whether any of this is more fun - since, to be fair to the devs, they did not mention that as part of their vision at all.

This is the answer, to everything.

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

No Templar would EVER run Flurry. Why would you?

Templars don't need a reason to run Flurry. Class skills should be strictly better than their generic counterparts.

It's not that I disagree with you. However, to play devils advocate, I think it would be unhealthy for the game if players ability bars were only filled with Class skills.

One thing I think ESO is struggling with is class vs weapon identities. I would say that everyone seems to feel that "spammables" => class identity. If that is the case, then THERE SHOULD NOT BE ANY WEAPON SPAMMABLES! I'm not against that, but it isn't the game atm. People don't want to lose class identities and I respect that. Jabs has been == Templar for a long time and people cannot separate the two anymore. ZOS is now trying to make Jabs a situational skill rather than a "always the best" skill.

I do agree that it feels like class abilities should always be stronger, but if you give every class a "spammable", then always make sure they are stronger than weapon skills, why should the weapon "spammable" ever exist? Every class would have a strictly better alternative!

skyrimfantasy wrote: »

ESO players be like

Amen!