Weaving nerf : good or bad ?

Oreyn_Bearclaw · July 2022

Waiting for PTS / natch potes

Last thing I will say on this topic. It is a noble effort to try and close the gap between the ceiling and the floor, but I think we need reasonable definitions of both in this context. The ceiling is obvious. They are they trifecta chasing 1%.

The floor is a little harder to define. If you really define the floor as the average player that never steps foot in group content and is pulling 10-15k DPS, then its a futile effort, and all you will do is upset the veteran players that are close to the ceiling. This floor will never know or care what you are doing. It makes no sense to focus on closing that gap. This floor has no interest in putting in the time and effort that would be required unless you completely remove any sort of skill from the DPS equation. That would be unfortunate to say the least.

If you define the floor as the newer player to end game, someone that wants to be in a trial or 4 man group that works towards harder achievements, and is willing in to put in the time and effort, but struggles to pull the numbers people are requiring for a lot of groups, then I think there are things that can be done to meaningfully close the gap, while maintaining the fast paced combat that a lot of us really love about this game. They are definitely on the right track with skill duration, and nerfing LA damage might help a bit here as well.

I'll say it again. If you really want to close the second gap in question, you need to look at reducing (not eliminating) the overall effect a high end group gives to damage, and you need to look at class and weapon lines to ensure that each class has the ability to use simple static rotations of 10 seconds. That means consistent skill durations that are directly divisible by one another (instant, 5 second, 10 second, 20 second, for example). We need simple static rotations that are not wildly behind a complex dynamic rotation. That will close the gap, I promise.

joseayalac · July 2022

Waiting for PTS / natch potes

Faulgor wrote: »

We'll DPS, like we've always done.
My healers are going to love the 20 second Radiating Regen, lol.

Your healing per second will be cut in half.

francesinhalover · July 2022

No, weaving doesn't need any changes

Why even the changes, legit saw no one complaining of the dps we have outside of people that disliked that stam sorcerer was numeber 1 by alot because of crystal weapon.

chrisub17_ESO104 · July 2022

I think this is one those things where they are over emphasizing things they think will sound good, and not emphasizing what likely matters more to them.

From a design standpoint weaving is a pain to tune. There just aren't many knobs. It's dependent on things like specific rotations, how mobile you are in specific content, and even how easy/difficult it is to animation cancel specific skills since that can vary.

So reducing the impact weaving has but not soo much where it's not relevant, seems to fit the above pretty well.

I think accessibility is entirely secondary to them, which is why that reason as people have pointed out doesn't really add up. It might have some impact, but it's hard to see how you would make this change primarily for that reason.

SwoopIM · July 2022

This constant flux is getting very tiring. I have played and enjoyed this game (despite ZOS' best efforts) for some 6-7 years. Over that time, I have seen soooooo many changes as the pendulum swings back and forth. We nerf this, then a year later we buff it again, then we nerf it again. There just seems to be no long term vision or roadmap. If it aint broke, don't fix it. In aviation, there is a phenomena know as a pilot-induced ocillation (PIO). It occurs when the nose of the aircraft drops, for example, for some reason and the pilot over-corrects by pulling the nose up but further than warranted resulting in a higher pitch attitude which the pilot then pushes the nose down but into a steeper dive attitude than desired and the cycle can continue. The solution is to simply stop over-controlling and take you hands off the controls. Let the aircraft stabilize itself, then gently adjust the attitude to achieve level flight. I think ZOS has a self-induced PIO going for a few years now. While I do believe their intentions are indeed good, all this overcontrol is ill-advised. I am skeptical that lowering the ceiling or raising the floor (or whatever) is really going to achieve meaningful results, at least the desired ones. I am left wondering if Gilliam was still a Youtube content provider instead of on-staff with ZOS if his perspective would be different on all this. How about giving up a glaive weapon skill line (for example) that would add something fresh to the game that the entire player community could enjoy? All I can say is tighten those seat belts because here we go again!

oldbobdude · July 2022

No, weaving doesn't need any changes

I’ll be the first to admit that it’s ZOS’s game so they can do what they want. Personally I worked hard to practice my weaving. Parse after parse. I’m still only a 75k parser but that’s a good improvement for me. I don’t like arbitrary decisions that reduces my game damage. It’s like the oakensoul ring. I did the murkmire grind before they increased the odds and I will not appreciate any nerf. Or, the time spent getting Bahsei and then nerfed. Not good to make light of effort of those trying to improve so that people who are not trying to improve get to anyway. My 2 cents.

FeedbackOnly · July 2022

Yes, it's a great change

As long as they balance content around the changes then it's good

Nightwiish · July 2022

Yes, it's a great change

Great idea!!!

Now if they increase the buff duration for Major and Mior buffs by 2x even 3x that would be awesome. More time playing the game dealing damage and healing, less time staring at buff durations.

acw37162 · July 2022

Waiting for PTS / natch potes

Impossible to know until you see

But I’m leaning heavy into bad and I mean super heavy.

Kappachi · July 2022

Yes, it's a great change

I believe it'll be a great change. I know many people who do not want to participate in endgame content because people have the tendency to be toxic against those who haven't mastered weaving, now the gap between those who have mastered it and haven't is a lot lower but still allows people who have mastered it to output higher DPS. I hope this change affects the community for the better.

BlueMoonRising · July 2022

No, weaving doesn't need any changes

This change does nothing for lower end players. Reasoning behind changes is stupid.

GrizzlyTank · July 2022

Won't fix the underlying issue with the combat which is that skills and normal attacks have little to no rythm/flow between them. Especially when you try to do heavy attacks.

It's effectively two different combat systems that don't mix.

Eiregirl · July 2022

Waiting for PTS / natch potes

I will wait and see but like I said in another post about this...

Those who can adapt will and those who cannot, will not.

$spacefracking$ · July 2022

I think weaving need change, but not like this

VaranisArano wrote: »

"What a nice meta. Be a shame if someone shook it up."

How is a 40% difference in damage between the highest performing and lowest performing class a 'good meta'? Or proc sets being BiS? Or countless completely broken PvP builds?

What classes/content do you play? I'm genuinely curious, because I do not under this comment at all

Wyrd88 · July 2022

No, weaving doesn't need any changes

VaranisArano wrote: »

"What a nice meta. Be a shame if someone shook it up."

A nice meta indeed. My favorite part about it is class identity.

Grandchamp1989 · July 2022

Waiting for PTS / natch potes

Wyrd88 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

"What a nice meta. Be a shame if someone shook it up."

A nice meta indeed. My favorite part about it is class identity.

[snip] hey atleast it's an even playing field xD

[edited for profanity bypass]

sevomd69 · July 2022

All this will do is nerf the la spammers i often meet in PUGs...

LashanW · July 2022

Waiting for PTS / natch potes

drsalvation wrote: »

This change is healthy for the game and a step on the right direction but there's still a lot more work to be done.
And I understand, that those who have been working to hit that 100k are going to be upset because it's like a fall from glory, but to be fair, they never should've been so high up there to begin with.

I'm not really concerned about whatever dps loss I'd get from update 35. But I am upset about this statement,

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

After these adjustments are live, we are going to focus on any resulting balance issues for the next few updates, hopefully reducing the chaotic nature of change for a brief period after the initial turbulence. We’ll be keeping a close eye on the discussions that come out of this, as well as the initial feedback over the upcoming PTS cycle. Since the scale of these changes is large in nature, please understand it may take more time for adjustments to come since changing one standard affects many specific abilities.

They will probably make a mess in update 35 and then keep themselves busy during the subsequent updates dealing with the aftermath.
So much time and effort will be wasted. They could've instead make a proper combat tutorial which would solve so many issues. They could've looked into a system change in order to try balancing PvP and PvE separately. Or they could try to fix some long-standing bugs like the DK leap.

No. Instead they are gonna create a problem and keep themselves busy solving it.

illutian wrote: »

Wonder how many of ya would be fine with a FPS game having insta-reload upon swapping weapons during the Reload animation. Because that's exactly what Weaving is; cancel an animation in order to reactivate an ability ahead of its animation.

The more I read comments like these, the more I believe this game should have a proper in-game combat tutorial explaining how to LA weave and about the 1 second global cooldown.
Bonus points if it explains that Light Attack cooldown and skill global cooldown are two different things and that you can align the two in order to reach optimum combat efficiency. That is what happens during LA weaving.

Agenericname · July 2022

Waiting for PTS / natch potes

spacefracking wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

"What a nice meta. Be a shame if someone shook it up."

How is a 40% difference in damage between the highest performing and lowest performing class a 'good meta'? Or proc sets being BiS? Or countless completely broken PvP builds?

What classes/content do you play? I'm genuinely curious, because I do not under this comment at all

I believe the comment was directed more toward ZOS' propensity to change any given meta more than this one, or that one, actually being nice.

Dont worry, if you dont like this new meta, itll change soon enough.

@BretonMage
I think that depends on what youre calling mediocre. If you can weave decently, but not perfectly, then you can clear content. If youre not getting the numbers where you think they should be, perhaps LAs arent the only culprit. Sets? Sure. The tempo of the parse, or "pacing" as its been also called, is also a factor sometimes.

pklemming · July 2022

Kappachi wrote: »

I believe it'll be a great change. I know many people who do not want to participate in endgame content because people have the tendency to be toxic against those who haven't mastered weaving, now the gap between those who have mastered it and haven't is a lot lower but still allows people who have mastered it to output higher DPS. I hope this change affects the community for the better.

From the notes, this doesn't increase anyone's dps, it just makes the gap smaller. Everyone loses.

It is also not that the end game players are toxic(well, some are), it is that there are certain expectations at endgame, which is why dps requirements are often set. If you don't weave and are getting 85k+, then great.

Also, the endgame thing won't be a problem as we are losing people at a rapid rate right now. This is not helping matters one iota.

Finedaible · July 2022

Wyrd88 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

"What a nice meta. Be a shame if someone shook it up."

A nice meta indeed. My favorite part about it is class identity.

Yep. Exactly what I've been pointing out for 3 years now. I really hope they don't skip buffing class skills again. Heck I'd be happy if they only buffed class skills this patch because guild and some weapon skills are just overloaded compared to their class counterparts. If they want to make the game more accessible, then it would make sense to lift up the class skills that starting players will logically use instead of leaving those crucial tools in the dirt. Players come into ESO from other MMOs and wonder why they aren't supposed to use their class skills, lol.

tomfant · July 2022

No, weaving doesn't need any changes

This change will not decrease the gap. It will in fact lower the floor.

Good players won't have a big loss in their dmg output because the longer DoT duration allows for more hard-hitting spammables in the rotation which probably will make up for the lower LA dmg.

Players who refuse using the combat mechanics of the game will loose a good portion of the dmg. Especially those LMB spammers that hardly use any abilities.

This game rather needs a proper explanation of its combat system than another erratic overhaul. Teaching people how to be effective is the only way to raise the floor.

morrowjen · July 2022

No, weaving doesn't need any changes

Endgame is barely functional right now and this is the kind of change that could kill it off completely. The ceiling doesn't need to be lowered or capped. The floor needs to be raised. Right now, a lot of groups are relying on one or two super dds to get them through content because there simply aren't enough high dds (they might parse high on a dummy but that is a whole other thing). If you remove those super dds from the equation by nerfing their output suddenly that prog never progresses and the dds that are learning new content don't get the space to do that because we need to make sure the group hits the dps level needed to clear. It's a bad idea that will end up keeping more people out of trials.

peacenote · July 2022

No, weaving doesn't need any changes

Eiregirl wrote: »

I will wait and see but like I said in another post about this...

Those who can adapt will and those who cannot, will not.

Please take no offense as I know you personally did not coin this sentiment, because it's been flying around the forums for as long as I can remember. But....

I'm tired of this sentiment being trotted out every time we point out as a community that a proposed change might be a bad idea. Yes, we can adapt. I have been adapting since 2014. But I'm tired of adapting to changes that make the game less fun, especially when the reasons given for proposed changes make no sense.

AwA was what we wanted, until it was for performance...

I love adapting to changes that make the game better. It's fun and part of playing an MMO. But let's stop pretending there's some kind of badge of honor to be earned by putting up with changes that are bad for the game or split the community and turn us against ourselves.

EozZoe1989 · July 2022

I think weaving need change, but not like this

what i think would be cool this cool idea or not ill just say it anyways...
the nerfing and other things and champion poions make people way over powered in the game..
the monsters need to be stringer.,, in every area duggen and other maps and so on.,
thing is people are running stright to end of duggen to finish the game. before it even started,,
its weird to me that people can do duggens on there own-.-
so make bosses harder and leave thing show are,, add things thou that help like

make it so duggens have 0 to 40 non champ
50 champ to 400 champ-- 401 to 800 champ.. 801 to 1200-- and so on or somthing simlar and shorter than that lol
make bosses harder and make that in delves and maps too also other
thanks reading and hope this cool idea

BretonMage · July 2022

Waiting for PTS / natch potes

Agenericname wrote: »

@BretonMage
I think that depends on what youre calling mediocre. If you can weave decently, but not perfectly, then you can clear content. If youre not getting the numbers where you think they should be, perhaps LAs arent the only culprit. Sets? Sure. The tempo of the parse, or "pacing" as its been also called, is also a factor sometimes.

Sorry, I don't want to take the thread OT, but isn't this limited to the GCD of 1 sec? I think I've been doing a LA-skill per second. I was button-mashing for most of my gaming life, but I'm trying to be a bit more mindful in this game.

MudcrabAttack · July 2022

Waiting for PTS / natch potes

Still haven’t seen Monday’s PTS notes, but something stood out from the preview. Aren’t they overestimating how much damage light attacks contribute in practice?

For reference, in many of ESO’s high-end experiences and activities, the average build sees roughly 15–20% of their overall damage coming from Light Attacks alone, which is a huge contribution to the delta of power we see.

This may be true for dummy target practice, but many trials involve a lot of AOE damage. Light attacks are more like 10% of the damage, or even as low as 5% if you deal lots of AOE damage.

Now if they change AOE DOT skills to last longer, perhaps more time could be spent with single target skills, which might balance out the few percent overall drop we see with light attacks

M0ntie · July 2022

No, weaving doesn't need any changes

I don't know if the change itself is good or bad. But I am very very tired of having to completely redo my characters builds because ZoS keep changing things, and this is a fundamental change. Plus they say they cannot guarantee to get it right first time so there will be several patches of changes.

Rather than mess with LA damage and dots it would be better to include content in the game that teaches people how to deal damage effectively, and lets them see what damage they do and guides the player into learning. For example, the Undaunted could contact the player and say "Hey Milksop, you're going places but we'd like to share some secrets with you to make you more awesome." The Undaunted could talk the player through a tutorial with practice dummies that teaches how to LA weave and animation cancel. Also the concept of applying dots and spamables. Then provides them a fairly low health (eg 3M) dummy that tells them their dps and then gives them feedback. It could be triggered when the player first wants to do vet dungeons, and an NPC member of the Undaunted could hang out at where the daily dungeon quests are picked up. Most other games offer combat tutorials, and especially with something unintuitive like ESO combat, it is really needed.

Hapexamendios · July 2022

Waiting for PTS / natch potes

How the hell should I know?

IZZEFlameLash · July 2022

No, weaving doesn't need any changes

The most pointless change that they are attempting. This may lower ceiling a bit but this will also limit very people they wanted to help with this change which means people that parsed 25k this patch will parse lower end of 20k now while people that parsed 110k will just parse 100k which means more or less the same. What's the point of this change? Gap isn't gonna close.

Better way would've been a better combat tutorial than just 'block or dodge heavy attacks' or so we have now. New players have to search internet to get majority of game mechanics right now when it should've been a part of the tutorials or at least appear on tips or hints tab so that people practice this through out the game to get familiarized.