Cloak Change

Tendoshii · May 2022

Cloak is the most OP skill out there. In combination with the passives, it’s the strongest defensive skill and provides a massive offensive boost. The only counter play is a resource intensive guessing game. With the ability to stack procs, either their target dies or they get away. So here’s the fix: “Barter with (whatever Elder Scrolls deity) to enter the shadow realm for 5 seconds at the cost of 20% of their max health, avoiding all ground effects and preventing all DoTs until revealed or the skill ends.” Remains a strong defensive skill with high offensive burst potential but adds a higher risk reward element that requires iLife to use rather than mindless spamming the moment anyone looks at them.

FluffWit · May 2022

I still think giving it the same treatment as streak and dodge roll could work well- increase the cost the more you use it.

Amottica · May 2022

Cloak isn’t all that OP when taking into consideration the numerous hard and soft counters to cloak. When facing a player who has taken the time to learn to use these counters a NB will find cloak useless. I think it may be the only skill in the game another player can make pointless to have on the bar.

Mr_Stach · May 2022

I don't know how you could nerf Cloak without it just getting deleted. There's plenty of counterplay against it

DaggersKid · May 2022

Tendoshii wrote: »

Cloak is the most OP skill out there. In combination with the passives, it’s the strongest defensive skill and provides a massive offensive boost. The only counter play is a resource intensive guessing game. With the ability to stack procs, either their target dies or they get away. So here’s the fix: “Barter with (whatever Elder Scrolls deity) to enter the shadow realm for 5 seconds at the cost of 20% of their max health, avoiding all ground effects and preventing all DoTs until revealed or the skill ends.” Remains a strong defensive skill with high offensive burst potential but adds a higher risk reward element that requires iLife to use rather than mindless spamming the moment anyone looks at them.

dodge roll and cloak is the only thing keeping stamblades alive and guess what they are still bottom tier atm especially in no proc (real pvp).

let’s look at stamblades:
- incap makes a really loud sound and has a cast time, so you‘ll never land it on a good player.
- soul tether mostly goes off after you died (lagg and bc cast time) or not off (cast time —> cc).
- the moment a nb cloaks without trying to run, a good enemy player will hold block or dodgeroll —> almost zero dmg done even with caluurion, especially none in no proc.
- everbody has flare for major protection. if you are that afraid of a nb just cast it on yourself and stand still holding block. literally nothing we can do with cloak.
- most enemies today don‘t even have to block or dodge for 3 reasons:

a) they have enough resistance, health and mitigation to even survive heavy attack, caluurion, frenzied, light attack dawnbreaker, medium attack, whirling blades combo and then they just heal to full health in 1-2 clicks.
b) most people play magplar or magdks. who hardcounter nbs. they have more sustain, more pressure, more heals and cloak is then only useful to maybe run away.
c) most skills of stamblades either won‘t go off or won‘t hit in lagg.

what does it bring us to survive a bit longer through cloak, if we can‘t do anything against decent players anyway?

so where does stamblade shine?
- surprising enemies and burst them down (like jump outta stealth into a 2 vs 2 and burst somebody with half health already).
- killing noobs (people we can still burst down)
- killing other stamblades
- running away like a chicken regretting not playing magdk or magplar.

you ever thought about why magblades don‘t use the shadowy disguise morph anymore? if it is so great, why take a hot over it?

as long as we don‘t play in a burst meta stamblade needs cloak to be atleast somewhat useful in making fair fights unfair and snatching kills…

HalensShade · May 2022

I'd personally take the invisibility effect away and replace it with old school major evasion's 20% dodge chance. Was og shuffle annoying [snip]? Yeah. Was it strong [snip]? Also, yeah. But atleast you'd still be able to see them while most of your attacks miss.

[edited for profanity bypass]

Bokila · May 2022

FluffWit wrote: »

I still think giving it the same treatment as streak and dodge roll could work well- increase the cost the more you use it.

You must be joking. There is no counter to streak or dodge roll which is why the cost increases. There are detection potions and detection skills in the game. Hell, you could go invis yourself by using a potion so you don t even need cloak.

Didgerion · May 2022

Tendoshii wrote: »

you ever thought about why magblades don‘t use the shadowy disguise morph anymore? if it is so great, why take a hot over it?

Yes cloak can be easily mitigated but that is not the reason why we see more and more NBs preferring HOT over cloak.
The real reason is the high mitigation + high HP meta. One cannot outburst a good player in meta build anymore thus the only way is to adopt the meta themselves....and for the magblades the meta is to go 30k+ hp and use HOT over cloak and Markyn mythic.

Zos needs to make glass canon builds fun again. The current meta does just one think - it forces the player into big zerg formations.

To make it fun back again they need to get rid of high mitigation meta in pvp areas. For example skills should not provide major and minor protection just for slotting them....sets like Markyn needs to be revised, converted into Weapon Damage and penetration instead of weapon damage and resistance for example.

PvP_Exploiter · May 2022

No.

Amottica · May 2022

FluffWit wrote: »

I still think giving it the same treatment as streak and dodge roll could work well- increase the cost the more you use it.

Not really comparable since Steak has counters that not only pull players out of sneak but prevent them from going back into it. Players have the ability to shut down the NB's use of this skill, unlike streak and dodge roll.

I chose long ago to use the counters available and they work great.

Ragnaroek93 · May 2022

Sure, we can give it a stacking cost when we remove it's counters

TX12001rwb17_ESO · May 2022

What they need to do is change the effect of Shadow Cloak and Shadowy Disguise and make it more like Dark Cloak

Shadow Cloak: Reduces the casters detection radius by 10 meters

Shadowy Disguise: Reduces the casters detection radius by 10 meters and heals the caster for XXXX health per second

Dark Cloak: Applies minor protection and heals the Caster for XXXX health per second (Unchanged)

So basically you would choose between minor protection or a 10 meter detection reduction, having a detection radius reduction instead of outright invisibility would mean you could not auto-stealth in the middle of combat, for combat you would have the heal effect per second to make up for it, a lot of NBs fail to realize how good the heal of Dark Cloak is because they all use invisibility instead and have cornered themselves into believing an NB can only fight from stealth.

Dracane · May 2022

This sounds more like a buff to me.
I also find cloak annoying, especially since it can no longer get popped by ground aoes. Nightblade has to be the only class for which one must slot certain abilities to have even a chance at countering them. They seem indomitable to me if I don't dedicate detection potions or radiant magelight. Quite scary. The usage of magelight works very well for me when the nightblade does not know how to exploit shade. When they know how to, then of course there is 0 chance of winning.

Like others have said though, cloak can easily become useless when nerfed. The only imaginable nerf is a stacking cost for spamming it below 3 seconds. I think we'll just have to deal with it as it is, because it's on a thin edge of being utterly op or utterly garbage.

AuraNebula · May 2022

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Applies mina lot of NBs fail to realize how good the heal of Dark Cloak is because they all use invisibility instead and have cornered themselves into believing an NB can only fight from stealth.

It may surprise you but some people like the assassin style gameplay and that play style has been a huge part of the elder scrolls series for many players. You ever tried being a stealth archer in Skyrim? Ridiculously fun.

AuraNebula · May 2022

Okay if we are taking away cloak from NBs then we are taking away streak and shields from sorcs. We're taking away jabs and breath of life from templars. We're taking away coagulate and embers from DKs, we're taking frost cloak from wardens.

See what I mean? Stop trying to take away class identifying skills. NBs have already been nerfed quite enough. There are plenty of counters you can use if you don't like getting ganked. Once Caluurion gets nerfed you'll never see them again. Just like how solo Magicka nightblade tether bombers have disappeared from the game.

Stop beating a dead horse geez.

Dracane · May 2022

AuraNebula wrote: »

Okay if we are taking away cloak from NBs then we are taking away streak and shields from sorcs. We're taking away jabs and breath of life from templars. We're taking away coagulate and embers from DKs, we're taking frost cloak from wardens.

See what I mean? Stop trying to take away class identifying skills. NBs have already been nerfed quite enough. There are plenty of counters you can use if you don't like getting ganked. Once Caluurion gets nerfed you'll never see them again. Just like how solo Magicka nightblade tether bombers have disappeared from the game.

Stop beating a dead horse geez.

It will be Caluurion meta for at least another half year I guess. Seems ZoS has no interest in doing something about.

I am surprised it wasn't even mentioned in this update.

AuraNebula · May 2022

Dracane wrote: »

AuraNebula wrote: »

Okay if we are taking away cloak from NBs then we are taking away streak and shields from sorcs. We're taking away jabs and breath of life from templars. We're taking away coagulate and embers from DKs, we're taking frost cloak from wardens.

See what I mean? Stop trying to take away class identifying skills. NBs have already been nerfed quite enough. There are plenty of counters you can use if you don't like getting ganked. Once Caluurion gets nerfed you'll never see them again. Just like how solo Magicka nightblade tether bombers have disappeared from the game.

Stop beating a dead horse geez.

It will be Caluurion meta for at least another half year I guess. Seems ZoS has no interest in doing something about. I am surprised it wasn't even mentioned in this update.

Then ask for a nerf to Caluurion and stop asking to nerf NBs. Also if you don't like getting ganked slot detect pots. I use the spell CRIT detect. They work great and gankers usually are super squishy because they're on a glass cannon build. Just one shot them.

As someone who used to play a bomber. I miss it a lot and it's gone because of comments like this, all because people didn't want to use any counters.

Now we just have giant Zerg battles with tanky DKs and templars. Boring.

FangOfTheTwoMoons · May 2022

Use a detect pot and watch them squirm.

Merforum · May 2022

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

What they need to do is change the effect of Shadow Cloak and Shadowy Disguise and make it more like Dark Cloak

Shadow Cloak: Reduces the casters detection radius by 10 meters

Shadowy Disguise: Reduces the casters detection radius by 10 meters and heals the caster for XXXX health per second

Dark Cloak: Applies minor protection and heals the Caster for XXXX health per second (Unchanged)

So basically you would choose between minor protection or a 10 meter detection reduction, having a detection radius reduction instead of outright invisibility would mean you could not auto-stealth in the middle of combat, for combat you would have the heal effect per second to make up for it, a lot of NBs fail to realize how good the heal of Dark Cloak is because they all use invisibility instead and have cornered themselves into believing an NB can only fight from stealth.

This is a very good compromise since it allows some better sneaking capabilities while adding healing that is needed, also I would think it also procs Armor buff still. Not bad.

Now lets fix Streak with by either only allowing stun at beginning or end of stream not stun everyone in the full range. And/or reduce range to 7m. And/or add 5 sec CD.

Dracane · May 2022

AuraNebula wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

AuraNebula wrote: »

Okay if we are taking away cloak from NBs then we are taking away streak and shields from sorcs. We're taking away jabs and breath of life from templars. We're taking away coagulate and embers from DKs, we're taking frost cloak from wardens.

See what I mean? Stop trying to take away class identifying skills. NBs have already been nerfed quite enough. There are plenty of counters you can use if you don't like getting ganked. Once Caluurion gets nerfed you'll never see them again. Just like how solo Magicka nightblade tether bombers have disappeared from the game.

Stop beating a dead horse geez.

It will be Caluurion meta for at least another half year I guess. Seems ZoS has no interest in doing something about. I am surprised it wasn't even mentioned in this update.

Then ask for a nerf to Caluurion and stop asking to nerf NBs. Also if you don't like getting ganked slot detect pots. I use the spell CRIT detect. They work great and gankers usually are super squishy because they're on a glass cannon build. Just one shot them.

As someone who used to play a bomber. I miss it a lot and it's gone because of comments like this, all because people didn't want to use any counters.

Now we just have giant Zerg battles with tanky DKs and templars. Boring.

I didn't exactly ask for a nerf. And those "counters" (more like dedications) work only because the majority of Nightblades is one track minded and easy to surprise with the slightest resistance. Good nightblades usually know how to handle themselves.

AuraNebula · May 2022

Dracane wrote: »

AuraNebula wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

AuraNebula wrote: »

Okay if we are taking away cloak from NBs then we are taking away streak and shields from sorcs. We're taking away jabs and breath of life from templars. We're taking away coagulate and embers from DKs, we're taking frost cloak from wardens.

See what I mean? Stop trying to take away class identifying skills. NBs have already been nerfed quite enough. There are plenty of counters you can use if you don't like getting ganked. Once Caluurion gets nerfed you'll never see them again. Just like how solo Magicka nightblade tether bombers have disappeared from the game.

Stop beating a dead horse geez.

It will be Caluurion meta for at least another half year I guess. Seems ZoS has no interest in doing something about. I am surprised it wasn't even mentioned in this update.

Then ask for a nerf to Caluurion and stop asking to nerf NBs. Also if you don't like getting ganked slot detect pots. I use the spell CRIT detect. They work great and gankers usually are super squishy because they're on a glass cannon build. Just one shot them.

As someone who used to play a bomber. I miss it a lot and it's gone because of comments like this, all because people didn't want to use any counters.

Now we just have giant Zerg battles with tanky DKs and templars. Boring.

I didn't exactly ask for a nerf. And those "counters" (more like dedications) work only because the majority of Nightblades is one track minded and easy to surprise with the slightest resistance. Good nightblades usually know how to handle themselves.

What class do you play? I guarantee you have a skill that you could use to find stealth nightblades. If getting ganked bothers you so much then run detect pots. It's not a whole build dedicated to finding nightblades by just using potions. And yes comments like this such as "NB stealth OP it's not fair" did get solo bombers deleted from the game.

Have you ever played a nightblade? Have you ever played a stealth character in another game? You are playing a niche play style that is a glass cannon. People just never want to die in Cyrodiil which is why we now have a tanky healing meta.

birdik · May 2022

DaggersKid wrote: »

Tendoshii wrote: »

Cloak is the most OP skill out there. In combination with the passives, it’s the strongest defensive skill and provides a massive offensive boost. The only counter play is a resource intensive guessing game. With the ability to stack procs, either their target dies or they get away. So here’s the fix: “Barter with (whatever Elder Scrolls deity) to enter the shadow realm for 5 seconds at the cost of 20% of their max health, avoiding all ground effects and preventing all DoTs until revealed or the skill ends.” Remains a strong defensive skill with high offensive burst potential but adds a higher risk reward element that requires iLife to use rather than mindless spamming the moment anyone looks at them.

dodge roll and cloak is the only thing keeping stamblades alive and guess what they are still bottom tier atm especially in no proc (real pvp).

let’s look at stamblades:
- incap makes a really loud sound and has a cast time, so you‘ll never land it on a good player.
- soul tether mostly goes off after you died (lagg and bc cast time) or not off (cast time —> cc).
- the moment a nb cloaks without trying to run, a good enemy player will hold block or dodgeroll —> almost zero dmg done even with caluurion, especially none in no proc.
- everbody has flare for major protection. if you are that afraid of a nb just cast it on yourself and stand still holding block. literally nothing we can do with cloak.
- most enemies today don‘t even have to block or dodge for 3 reasons:

a) they have enough resistance, health and mitigation to even survive heavy attack, caluurion, frenzied, light attack dawnbreaker, medium attack, whirling blades combo and then they just heal to full health in 1-2 clicks.
b) most people play magplar or magdks. who hardcounter nbs. they have more sustain, more pressure, more heals and cloak is then only useful to maybe run away.
c) most skills of stamblades either won‘t go off or won‘t hit in lagg.

what does it bring us to survive a bit longer through cloak, if we can‘t do anything against decent players anyway?

so where does stamblade shine?
- surprising enemies and burst them down (like jump outta stealth into a 2 vs 2 and burst somebody with half health already).
- killing noobs (people we can still burst down)
- killing other stamblades
- running away like a chicken regretting not playing magdk or magplar.

you ever thought about why magblades don‘t use the shadowy disguise morph anymore? if it is so great, why take a hot over it?

as long as we don‘t play in a burst meta stamblade needs cloak to be atleast somewhat useful in making fair fights unfair and snatching kills…

Dude understands situation excellently

McTaterskins · May 2022

Sure.

Nerf cloak. If then also:

Heals cost 2x as much and do half as much.

Armor mitigation values are reduced by 30%

and/or if the higher your armor/mitigation, hp etc. are, the less damage and healing you do.

Otherwise, all these threads are is someone getting beat by something and not wanting to deal with the learning curve of pvp. Attacking class identity whilst redirecting attention away from actual balance issues.

divnyi · May 2022

Any other PvP players noticed that it is much harder to bump cloak user with AoEs after cloak patch?

I mean yeah it's dead easy with detection abilities atm, but my only problem with cloak is that sometimes you do AoE, it hits, enemy reapplies cloak instantly the same GCD and with enough movement speed it becomes a guessing game with very uneven result.

Ofc doesn't apply for sweeps as it's multi-hitter.

McTaterskins · May 2022

divnyi wrote: »

Any other PvP players noticed that it is much harder to bump cloak user with AoEs after cloak patch?

I mean yeah it's dead easy with detection abilities atm, but my only problem with cloak is that sometimes you do AoE, it hits, enemy reapplies cloak instantly the same GCD and with enough movement speed it becomes a guessing game with very uneven result.

Ofc doesn't apply for sweeps as it's multi-hitter.

I'm not having much of an issue pulling people out aside from typical positional desync issues. Good NB's change direction though, so there is that. Otherwise, in my opinion, current levels of sustain are more of a root cause. Cloak is expensive, but a mirage or channeled accel/race against user with wretched vitality equipped and bear haunch can accumulate an incredible amount of sustain. I've tested out to being able to cloak 9-12 times on mine before requiring another potion, depending on the combat encounter. That is of course at the detriment of being able to back bar something with damage buffs instead.

Marginis · May 2022

Yeah sure let's make cloak basically useless so that we take away that last unique thing Nightblades have.

I think, if you don't want to run the several direct counters to it, maybe use one of the other several soft counters that exist, like a build that has literally any tankiness, which is super easy right now.

Like, if I keep dying to a bunch of high crit builds, I'll take some crit resistance. It's not that difficult. I'm not going to complain that Templars have too much crit and they need to sacrifice a fifth of their health to spam puncturing strikes or something.

emilyhyoyeon · May 2022

this would only be for the invisibility morph, right? always get confused in these convos since the non invis morph has cloak in the name whereas the invis morph does not

jaws343 · May 2022

AuraNebula wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

AuraNebula wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

AuraNebula wrote: »

Okay if we are taking away cloak from NBs then we are taking away streak and shields from sorcs. We're taking away jabs and breath of life from templars. We're taking away coagulate and embers from DKs, we're taking frost cloak from wardens.

See what I mean? Stop trying to take away class identifying skills. NBs have already been nerfed quite enough. There are plenty of counters you can use if you don't like getting ganked. Once Caluurion gets nerfed you'll never see them again. Just like how solo Magicka nightblade tether bombers have disappeared from the game.

Stop beating a dead horse geez.

It will be Caluurion meta for at least another half year I guess. Seems ZoS has no interest in doing something about. I am surprised it wasn't even mentioned in this update.

Then ask for a nerf to Caluurion and stop asking to nerf NBs. Also if you don't like getting ganked slot detect pots. I use the spell CRIT detect. They work great and gankers usually are super squishy because they're on a glass cannon build. Just one shot them.

As someone who used to play a bomber. I miss it a lot and it's gone because of comments like this, all because people didn't want to use any counters.

Now we just have giant Zerg battles with tanky DKs and templars. Boring.

I didn't exactly ask for a nerf. And those "counters" (more like dedications) work only because the majority of Nightblades is one track minded and easy to surprise with the slightest resistance. Good nightblades usually know how to handle themselves.

What class do you play? I guarantee you have a skill that you could use to find stealth nightblades. If getting ganked bothers you so much then run detect pots. It's not a whole build dedicated to finding nightblades by just using potions. And yes comments like this such as "NB stealth OP it's not fair" did get solo bombers deleted from the game.

Have you ever played a nightblade? Have you ever played a stealth character in another game? You are playing a niche play style that is a glass cannon. People just never want to die in Cyrodiil which is why we now have a tanky healing meta.

It was already mentioned here in this thread, but please, name any other class that requires a dedicated skill or potion to counter them?

Streak? Someone running away with streak is just someone running away. Let them run if you don't want to chase. And if they are using it offensively, they are still within attack range and you counter it with break free as you do with every other stun in the game.

Cloak however requires players to sacrifice bar slots or potion slots to counter the class. It's pretty ridiculous and it is the only class that has that requirement to counter it.

Parasaurolophus · May 2022

Stamnecro and Stamwarden have been ruling pvp for several years, some people still complain about the weakest class for pvp.

Jaimeh · May 2022

NBs got systematically ruined because ppl come into Cyrodiil in glass canon builds, with no counters for stealth even though there are many (and now more effective than ever) and then complain about getting one-shot ganked. NBs are in a place where either they use stealth to have even a chance to do some damage, or will just have to get deleted from the game. Enough with the nerfs, the class is already a pale comparison of what it used to be.

Dracane · May 2022

AuraNebula wrote: »

What class do you play? I guarantee you have a skill that you could use to find stealth nightblades. If getting ganked bothers you so much then run detect pots. It's not a whole build dedicated to finding nightblades by just using potions. And yes comments like this such as "NB stealth OP it's not fair" did get solo bombers deleted from the game.

Have you ever played a nightblade? Have you ever played a stealth character in another game? You are playing a niche play style that is a glass cannon. People just never want to die in Cyrodiil which is why we now have a tanky healing meta.

You are exaggerating. My problem with cloak is not nearly as huge as you make it sound, but why do you undersell Nightblades so? They aren't niche at all, neither is their playstyle. It's one of the most prevalent and persistent in the game.

Sacrificing a dedicated potion and skillslot just to have a shot at fighting them, works, but gives you severe drawbacks against all other classes. What choices does one have though? A nightblade can literally not die unless you have those counters. I think it wouldn't be outrageous if they were encouraged to at least allow a second or so for their foe to fight back by giving it a stacking cost of 4 seconds. They could still spam it, but might be encouraged to not always do so.

Just like roll dodgers and streakers. Imagine how stupid the game would be if their was no penalty to those. Cloak is pretty much in the same realm even though both dodge and streaks have strong counters, too. (Aoes and gap closers) So?