Cloak Change

Merforum

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

The past several years have seen NB's entire kit gutted for the sake of preserving the easily spammable invisibility, which is what keeps the complaints coming no matter how weak the rest of their kit gets. It is unfun for individual opponents who must warp their builds in order to fight against NB cloak (only for them to disappear anyway), and it is unfun for the NB when focused by multiple enemies who successively hard-counter their invisibility.

Nerf cloak, buff everything else NB does. The whole class has been reduced to 1 playstyle revolving around 1 busted ability and 1 busted proc set. Also: delete the idiotic artificial lag (cast times) attached to their ults.

Exactly most games know how powerful inviso is and make it very hard to get/use. And NO game I know of doesn't have a long cooldown on something like this. I'd argue even inviso pot is OP but at least it has long CD.

Also if you play all classes you can make a valid comparison, even someone like me who prefers brawling, when I am NB in PVP inviso is so strong I can do much more. And I have seen so many streamers/youtubers and in game players who are really good as NB but as soon as they play any other class they become much less effective, if the criteria is killing other player I mean.

DrSlaughtr

Merforum wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

The past several years have seen NB's entire kit gutted for the sake of preserving the easily spammable invisibility, which is what keeps the complaints coming no matter how weak the rest of their kit gets. It is unfun for individual opponents who must warp their builds in order to fight against NB cloak (only for them to disappear anyway), and it is unfun for the NB when focused by multiple enemies who successively hard-counter their invisibility.

Nerf cloak, buff everything else NB does. The whole class has been reduced to 1 playstyle revolving around 1 busted ability and 1 busted proc set. Also: delete the idiotic artificial lag (cast times) attached to their ults.

Exactly most games know how powerful inviso is and make it very hard to get/use. And NO game I know of doesn't have a long cooldown on something like this. I'd argue even inviso pot is OP but at least it has long CD.

Also if you play all classes you can make a valid comparison, even someone like me who prefers brawling, when I am NB in PVP inviso is so strong I can do much more. And I have seen so many streamers/youtubers and in game players who are really good as NB but as soon as they play any other class they become much less effective, if the criteria is killing other player I mean.

If I play nightblade 80% of the time I'm not going to be as good on my DK, templar or any other class but that goes both ways. I know people who run dk 6 nights a week. That 7th night? They're being trounced on their NB or some other class. About an hour in they go back to what they're good at.

So both your post and the previous are advocating turning NB into a non stealth, generic brawler, just like every other class in pvp right now. At this point why don't we just have everyone line up and just spam execute on repeat until one person remains.

The vast amount of mag it takes to use shadowy disguise is the drawback. The vast amount of skills that render it useless and me defenseless is the drawback.

75% of NB players aren't even that good. Anyone can gank someone who is defenseless, like being in siege. But there's nothing stopping you from keeping flare under your feet while doing so.

The top tier NBs are masters of maneuverability. That's what makes them hard to catch and kill. All the others drop like flies the moment they're revealed.

Also, this "other games do this or that" that argument is a paper tiger. Other games do a lot of stuff based on different combat engines. Even so there's a very popular mmo that has a stealth class very much like this.

You know what? We could try a 30 camp where everyone just plays DKs and see how much fun that is. Players flock to the meta builds like flies to honey anyway. NBs are not top tier right now. Just because you get caught slipping on your defenses doesn't change that.

Merforum

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

The past several years have seen NB's entire kit gutted for the sake of preserving the easily spammable invisibility, which is what keeps the complaints coming no matter how weak the rest of their kit gets. It is unfun for individual opponents who must warp their builds in order to fight against NB cloak (only for them to disappear anyway), and it is unfun for the NB when focused by multiple enemies who successively hard-counter their invisibility.

Nerf cloak, buff everything else NB does. The whole class has been reduced to 1 playstyle revolving around 1 busted ability and 1 busted proc set. Also: delete the idiotic artificial lag (cast times) attached to their ults.

Exactly most games know how powerful inviso is and make it very hard to get/use. And NO game I know of doesn't have a long cooldown on something like this. I'd argue even inviso pot is OP but at least it has long CD.

Also if you play all classes you can make a valid comparison, even someone like me who prefers brawling, when I am NB in PVP inviso is so strong I can do much more. And I have seen so many streamers/youtubers and in game players who are really good as NB but as soon as they play any other class they become much less effective, if the criteria is killing other player I mean.

If I play nightblade 80% of the time I'm not going to be as good on my DK, templar or any other class but that goes both ways. I know people who run dk 6 nights a week. That 7th night? They're being trounced on their NB or some other class. About an hour in they go back to what they're good at.

So both your post and the previous are advocating turning NB into a non stealth, generic brawler, just like every other class in pvp right now. At this point why don't we just have everyone line up and just spam execute on repeat until one person remains.

The vast amount of mag it takes to use shadowy disguise is the drawback. The vast amount of skills that render it useless and me defenseless is the drawback.

75% of NB players aren't even that good. Anyone can gank someone who is defenseless, like being in siege. But there's nothing stopping you from keeping flare under your feet while doing so.

The top tier NBs are masters of maneuverability. That's what makes them hard to catch and kill. All the others drop like flies the moment they're revealed.

Also, this "other games do this or that" that argument is a paper tiger. Other games do a lot of stuff based on different combat engines. Even so there's a very popular mmo that has a stealth class very much like this.

You know what? We could try a 30 camp where everyone just plays DKs and see how much fun that is. Players flock to the meta builds like flies to honey anyway. NBs are not top tier right now. Just because you get caught slipping on your defenses doesn't change that.

Of course someone who spends a lot of time with one class will be better at that class, but I mean players who play many classes like me I play all and want all to be good and none OP. And as I said even I prefer brawling but on NB I am just more successful simply because inviso is OP. Steak on sorc is close but not as OP. Sweeps is easy mode but also not as OP, bubble is OP and getting nerfed which I agree with. DK recent sustain buffs were OP and are getting nerfed which I agree with. Self healing overall is OP right now and damage is OP, no nerfs I know of for those yet.

BTW as other poster said, I agree that they keep nerfing everything but inviso on NB to try to make up for how OP inviso is but the only thing that can make it not OP is to change it, then beef up other stuff. As others have said if every single other class has to waste a slot just to deal with 1 skill of 1 class, that is the definition of OP.

BTW I think ZOS even made an oversight on DKs when they made Eruption into a channel, because it procs Helping hands, meaning essentially for free you can spam eruption and get 990 stam every second.

BTW2 NB has 3 distinct 'themes' Master of Assassination, Master of Siphoning, and Master of Stealth, NONE of which require skill that is useless in PVE and the most powerful skill in PVP.

umagon

Over the years so much has been striped from the night blade class there isn’t thing else to take away but the ability to enter into stealth while in combat. Players have complained so much of the first strike burst skills and capabilities have been drastically diminished to point of being next to useless.

In the past raged mag night blades were diminished because they were too thematic similar of the sorcerer class.
Sap tanks were destroyed too because the night blades are considered to be an assassin archetype and they were too closely competing with dragon knights; as the dragon knight was considered to be the tank class. And now that includes the necromancer. And they are part of the “tank” theme.

And every time it comes to buffing night blades it goes:

Can night blades be the masters of healing? No! The templar and warden are the “healers” and that is their theme.

Can night blades be the masters of poisons and damage over time? No! that goes to dragon knights because of the dragon theme and what not.

Can night blades be the masters of disease and pestilence? No! that is the necromancer’s theme.

Can night blades be the masters of magic? No! that’s the sorcerer’s theme and night blades can’t have it.

Can night blades be the masters of nature? No! are you crazy that’s the warden’s theme.

Both in the past and now:

Can night blades be the masters of the shadows and assassination? No! because some one died in pvp and didn’t like it. Put cast times on everything, increase the cost on everything, and lower the damage.

I am wondering for everyone who wants to even further destroy the night blade class what can the night blade class be the masters of? Other than being free ap? What iconic theme can night blades have that will not encroach on the other classes' thematic and would be not complained about all the time?

Jaimeh

TheEndBringer wrote: »

If you don't play NB on the reg you should understand everything you think cloak can do is not based in reality.

It costs me upwards of 3 to 4 hits of shadowy to just get passed guards in a keep. That's 10 to 13k of mag. Every other class can defend against the guards. They will kill me. Literally just walking through the gate house breaks stealth. From there is a minefield of guards with perma sight.

If I get hit with haunting curse I have to spend 15k mag to avoid getting instant killed by the tick. Every other class can out heal it.

Every player had easy access to 3 skills, all of which give you major buffs, plus detect pots. On top of that several classes have skills that are perfect for yanking NBs out. Templars, DKs and sorcs, specifically.

Don't blame NBs for Caluurions. I'd happily go back to update 29 to run heart and stygian again. Blame ZOS. Pure damage and pen is not enough to fight in this proc meta.

Our biggest attacks are telegraphed. Incap/Harvest warns you to roll dodge. Caluurions gives you one second to react, which is plenty of time to break free and roll or block.

They also added multiple CP geared specifically to counter NBs and are even adding a mythic on top of it all that will further give you protection.

Of all the things to complain about right now, this is still it? We have DKs, templars and necros running wild with little counter play. They have all the heals, all to mitigation and just as much damage as a NB, and none of it is changing. No other class has so much built in counter play.

Not to mention the fact that one or two good DKs can wipe a group. I'm not wiping groups by myself on gank blade. If I see a 12 man the best I can do is pick off the weakest like a wolf and slow them down enough that reinforcements arrive. Don't blame the NB if your group members run out one at a time to stop me.

NBs are the uboats of pvp. We attack from the depths then sink back below before getting caught. If you can't or refuse to do the most basic work to negate a NB then complaining about it on the forum is unfair to the small number of players who put the work in at being good at this one class, especially when they are not performing at the same level as the big three.

That's such an articulate and thoughtful post, thanks for putting into words the situation with NBs right now, I agree with your points.

Mr_Stach

I really don't struggle too hard against NBs, if they are able to burst me down out of stealth, it's typically on me. There's a lot of counters. It's not the same as getting Nuked by a DK or constant pressure from a Templar.

DrSlaughtr

Merforum wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

The past several years have seen NB's entire kit gutted for the sake of preserving the easily spammable invisibility, which is what keeps the complaints coming no matter how weak the rest of their kit gets. It is unfun for individual opponents who must warp their builds in order to fight against NB cloak (only for them to disappear anyway), and it is unfun for the NB when focused by multiple enemies who successively hard-counter their invisibility.

Nerf cloak, buff everything else NB does. The whole class has been reduced to 1 playstyle revolving around 1 busted ability and 1 busted proc set. Also: delete the idiotic artificial lag (cast times) attached to their ults.

Exactly most games know how powerful inviso is and make it very hard to get/use. And NO game I know of doesn't have a long cooldown on something like this. I'd argue even inviso pot is OP but at least it has long CD.

Also if you play all classes you can make a valid comparison, even someone like me who prefers brawling, when I am NB in PVP inviso is so strong I can do much more. And I have seen so many streamers/youtubers and in game players who are really good as NB but as soon as they play any other class they become much less effective, if the criteria is killing other player I mean.

If I play nightblade 80% of the time I'm not going to be as good on my DK, templar or any other class but that goes both ways. I know people who run dk 6 nights a week. That 7th night? They're being trounced on their NB or some other class. About an hour in they go back to what they're good at.

So both your post and the previous are advocating turning NB into a non stealth, generic brawler, just like every other class in pvp right now. At this point why don't we just have everyone line up and just spam execute on repeat until one person remains.

The vast amount of mag it takes to use shadowy disguise is the drawback. The vast amount of skills that render it useless and me defenseless is the drawback.

75% of NB players aren't even that good. Anyone can gank someone who is defenseless, like being in siege. But there's nothing stopping you from keeping flare under your feet while doing so.

The top tier NBs are masters of maneuverability. That's what makes them hard to catch and kill. All the others drop like flies the moment they're revealed.

Also, this "other games do this or that" that argument is a paper tiger. Other games do a lot of stuff based on different combat engines. Even so there's a very popular mmo that has a stealth class very much like this.

You know what? We could try a 30 camp where everyone just plays DKs and see how much fun that is. Players flock to the meta builds like flies to honey anyway. NBs are not top tier right now. Just because you get caught slipping on your defenses doesn't change that.

Of course someone who spends a lot of time with one class will be better at that class, but I mean players who play many classes like me I play all and want all to be good and none OP. And as I said even I prefer brawling but on NB I am just more successful simply because inviso is OP. Steak on sorc is close but not as OP. Sweeps is easy mode but also not as OP, bubble is OP and getting nerfed which I agree with. DK recent sustain buffs were OP and are getting nerfed which I agree with. Self healing overall is OP right now and damage is OP, no nerfs I know of for those yet.

BTW as other poster said, I agree that they keep nerfing everything but inviso on NB to try to make up for how OP inviso is but the only thing that can make it not OP is to change it, then beef up other stuff. As others have said if every single other class has to waste a slot just to deal with 1 skill of 1 class, that is the definition of OP.

BTW I think ZOS even made an oversight on DKs when they made Eruption into a channel, because it procs Helping hands, meaning essentially for free you can spam eruption and get 990 stam every second.

BTW2 NB has 3 distinct 'themes' Master of Assassination, Master of Siphoning, and Master of Stealth, NONE of which require skill that is useless in PVE and the most powerful skill in PVP.

It's late so I can't go into this much but let me point out that you are drastically uninformed.

Shadowy disguise has been nerfed several times over the years. It's duration deceased. It's cost increased. Multiple skills buffed that hinder it useless. Detect pots buffed. CP passives to counter it. Sets to counter it. Guards buffed to break stealth and invisible from 40 meters out.

The only time in recent memory it's been "buffed" wasn't even a buff. It was a bug fix.

Also it's very useful in PvE. Plenty of people use it for questing and farming. Just because you're not getting godslayer with a gank doesn't mean it's useless in PvE.

divnyi

@TheEndBringer wdym last changes to cloak is definitely a buff. They made sure no DoT pulls out of cloak, even ground ones. If you can argue that it was just "fix", they also made it so your dots don't pull out of cloak.

DrSlaughtr

divnyi wrote: »

@TheEndBringer wdym last changes to cloak is definitely a buff. They made sure no DoT pulls out of cloak, even ground ones. If you can argue that it was just "fix", they also made it so your dots don't pull out of cloak.

It was a bug fix by their own admission. It was always meant to do that. Why? I'll tell you (even though I already pointed this out).

I do not have a proper burst heal on NB. Every other class has at least one (and some have more than one) great burst heal. The only burst heal in siphoning is just as likely to accidently hit another player than me AND it eats health in return. Swallow soul is a hot and requires you to target an enemy. Sap essence is a baby burst but again, is primarily an attack.

So what is my defense against haunting curse that can do 8 to 10k ticks on me? Shadowy disguise. That will require me to hit SD AT LEAST 4 times at about 15k mag to not get destroyed by one tick of that?

So are we going to pretend like that's some crazy advantages? Any other class can either outright ignored it or heal through it with one HOT.

Even with shadowy disguise I have to run invisible pots because the skill is so expensive and it's impossible to get through a keep past guards without burning every last ounce of mag.

I tell you what. You want to put a CD on shadowy? Here's what you'll have to do.

Increase is duration
Decrease the cost.
Remove the stealth breaking from guards.
Give NBs a proper heal like honor the dead or coagulating.

Do all that and slap a cooldown on it. Because if you don't do all those things you just destroyed the class for both PVP and PvE.

That's all pointless though because EVERYONE can already force a cooldown with skills and pots. Just because some players are not good at using those tactics (or refuse to) doesn't mean ZOS should gut the class until it bleeds out faster than a 22k glass cannon defenseless on siege.

There are basic tactics everyone could just to negate a ganker.

1. Everyone stay on ram.

2.. Never send one dude to rez a body.

3. If you are sieging alone, keep flare under your feet.

If you are running down a NB, use the buddy system. One of you hit mage light or camo hunter every 3 seconds while the other does the damage.

You do those and most NBs are dead. If you refuse to do those things then that's not the NB's fault.

If you want to be mad at something, be mad at the builds which allow one person to wipe out an entire 12 man group with two skills.

jaws343

TheEndBringer wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

@TheEndBringer wdym last changes to cloak is definitely a buff. They made sure no DoT pulls out of cloak, even ground ones. If you can argue that it was just "fix", they also made it so your dots don't pull out of cloak.

It was a bug fix by their own admission. It was always meant to do that. Why? I'll tell you (even though I already pointed this out).

I do not have a proper burst heal on NB. Every other class has at least one (and some have more than one) great burst heal. The only burst heal in siphoning is just as likely to accidently hit another player than me AND it eats health in return. Swallow soul is a hot and requires you to target an enemy. Sap essence is a baby burst but again, is primarily an attack.

So what is my defense against haunting curse that can do 8 to 10k ticks on me? Shadowy disguise. That will require me to hit SD AT LEAST 4 times at about 15k mag to not get destroyed by one tick of that?

So are we going to pretend like that's some crazy advantages? Any other class can either outright ignored it or heal through it with one HOT.

Even with shadowy disguise I have to run invisible pots because the skill is so expensive and it's impossible to get through a keep past guards without burning every last ounce of mag.

I tell you what. You want to put a CD on shadowy? Here's what you'll have to do.

Increase is duration
Decrease the cost.
Remove the stealth breaking from guards.
Give NBs a proper heal like honor the dead or coagulating.

Do all that and slap a cooldown on it. Because if you don't do all those things you just destroyed the class for both PVP and PvE.

That's all pointless though because EVERYONE can already force a cooldown with skills and pots. Just because some players are not good at using those tactics (or refuse to) doesn't mean ZOS should gut the class until it bleeds out faster than a 22k glass cannon defenseless on siege.

There are basic tactics everyone could just to negate a ganker.

1. Everyone stay on ram.

2.. Never send one dude to rez a body.

3. If you are sieging alone, keep flare under your feet.

If you are running down a NB, use the busy system. One of you hit mage light or camo hunter every 3 seconds while the other does the damage.

You do those and most NBs are dead. If you refuse to do those things then that's not the NB's fault.

If you want to be mad at something, be mad at the builds which allow one person to wipe out an entire 12 man group with two skills.

I just had to laugh at the "use magelight every 3 seconds" bit.

Sure, I'll just spend 5K mag every 3 seconds just to find another player, with a buddy who is doing the damage. Because that is reasonable somehow. If it takes 5K mag + another player to even find a player using cloak, cloak is a problem.

Mr_Stach

Good lord the Anti-Cloak Circle Jerk just keeps going.

Cloak is basically NBs main Defensive tool that you can Purge with several things.

Imagine if you could run up and purge a DKs Coag or a Templars Bubble.

Yeah it sucks to get the Gank on you, but Nerfing Cloak is not going to stop you getting ganked, it's just going to make NBs even more useless.

Marginis

jaws343 wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

@TheEndBringer wdym last changes to cloak is definitely a buff. They made sure no DoT pulls out of cloak, even ground ones. If you can argue that it was just "fix", they also made it so your dots don't pull out of cloak.

It was a bug fix by their own admission. It was always meant to do that. Why? I'll tell you (even though I already pointed this out).

I do not have a proper burst heal on NB. Every other class has at least one (and some have more than one) great burst heal. The only burst heal in siphoning is just as likely to accidently hit another player than me AND it eats health in return. Swallow soul is a hot and requires you to target an enemy. Sap essence is a baby burst but again, is primarily an attack.

So what is my defense against haunting curse that can do 8 to 10k ticks on me? Shadowy disguise. That will require me to hit SD AT LEAST 4 times at about 15k mag to not get destroyed by one tick of that?

So are we going to pretend like that's some crazy advantages? Any other class can either outright ignored it or heal through it with one HOT.

Even with shadowy disguise I have to run invisible pots because the skill is so expensive and it's impossible to get through a keep past guards without burning every last ounce of mag.

I tell you what. You want to put a CD on shadowy? Here's what you'll have to do.

Increase is duration
Decrease the cost.
Remove the stealth breaking from guards.
Give NBs a proper heal like honor the dead or coagulating.

Do all that and slap a cooldown on it. Because if you don't do all those things you just destroyed the class for both PVP and PvE.

That's all pointless though because EVERYONE can already force a cooldown with skills and pots. Just because some players are not good at using those tactics (or refuse to) doesn't mean ZOS should gut the class until it bleeds out faster than a 22k glass cannon defenseless on siege.

There are basic tactics everyone could just to negate a ganker.

1. Everyone stay on ram.

2.. Never send one dude to rez a body.

3. If you are sieging alone, keep flare under your feet.

If you are running down a NB, use the busy system. One of you hit mage light or camo hunter every 3 seconds while the other does the damage.

You do those and most NBs are dead. If you refuse to do those things then that's not the NB's fault.

If you want to be mad at something, be mad at the builds which allow one person to wipe out an entire 12 man group with two skills.

I just had to laugh at the "use magelight every 3 seconds" bit.

Sure, I'll just spend 5K mag every 3 seconds just to find another player, with a buddy who is doing the damage. Because that is reasonable somehow. If it takes 5K mag + another player to even find a player using cloak, cloak is a problem.

Hmm, imagine having to use a bunch of magicka to keep an ability up in order for it to be even remotely usable... It's not like Nightblades ever have to ever do that ever.

This is the problem - nobody has empathy for other classes. Okay, someone mains a single class. So what? They should still be able to sympathize with other classes. They can still make other classes and use them to, in the very least, understand them. I main a Nightblade, but I understand that other classes need their own unique things to make them fun to play and effective in the game. I main a Nightblade, but I still really enjoy switching over to my Warden and Necromancer (and the rest of my 18 characters).

It's not that people are required to play all the classes, but they owe it to themselves to at least try a class before complaining about it. That way they won't make ignorant comments that show blatant hypocrisy. I mean, aside from that fact that the magicka investment required for cloak was even mentioned in the quoted post, and that it isn't required to cast magelight every 3 seconds to stop a cloaking Nightblade, and that casting magelight is far from the only counter to cloak.

So try to play the gankblade you complain about. You might learn it's not as OP as you think. A little empathy goes a long way.

jaws343

Marginis wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

@TheEndBringer wdym last changes to cloak is definitely a buff. They made sure no DoT pulls out of cloak, even ground ones. If you can argue that it was just "fix", they also made it so your dots don't pull out of cloak.

It was a bug fix by their own admission. It was always meant to do that. Why? I'll tell you (even though I already pointed this out).

I do not have a proper burst heal on NB. Every other class has at least one (and some have more than one) great burst heal. The only burst heal in siphoning is just as likely to accidently hit another player than me AND it eats health in return. Swallow soul is a hot and requires you to target an enemy. Sap essence is a baby burst but again, is primarily an attack.

So what is my defense against haunting curse that can do 8 to 10k ticks on me? Shadowy disguise. That will require me to hit SD AT LEAST 4 times at about 15k mag to not get destroyed by one tick of that?

So are we going to pretend like that's some crazy advantages? Any other class can either outright ignored it or heal through it with one HOT.

Even with shadowy disguise I have to run invisible pots because the skill is so expensive and it's impossible to get through a keep past guards without burning every last ounce of mag.

I tell you what. You want to put a CD on shadowy? Here's what you'll have to do.

Increase is duration
Decrease the cost.
Remove the stealth breaking from guards.
Give NBs a proper heal like honor the dead or coagulating.

Do all that and slap a cooldown on it. Because if you don't do all those things you just destroyed the class for both PVP and PvE.

That's all pointless though because EVERYONE can already force a cooldown with skills and pots. Just because some players are not good at using those tactics (or refuse to) doesn't mean ZOS should gut the class until it bleeds out faster than a 22k glass cannon defenseless on siege.

There are basic tactics everyone could just to negate a ganker.

1. Everyone stay on ram.

2.. Never send one dude to rez a body.

3. If you are sieging alone, keep flare under your feet.

If you are running down a NB, use the busy system. One of you hit mage light or camo hunter every 3 seconds while the other does the damage.

You do those and most NBs are dead. If you refuse to do those things then that's not the NB's fault.

If you want to be mad at something, be mad at the builds which allow one person to wipe out an entire 12 man group with two skills.

I just had to laugh at the "use magelight every 3 seconds" bit.

Sure, I'll just spend 5K mag every 3 seconds just to find another player, with a buddy who is doing the damage. Because that is reasonable somehow. If it takes 5K mag + another player to even find a player using cloak, cloak is a problem.

Hmm, imagine having to use a bunch of magicka to keep an ability up in order for it to be even remotely usable... It's not like Nightblades ever have to ever do that ever.

This is the problem - nobody has empathy for other classes. Okay, someone mains a single class. So what? They should still be able to sympathize with other classes. They can still make other classes and use them to, in the very least, understand them. I main a Nightblade, but I understand that other classes need their own unique things to make them fun to play and effective in the game. I main a Nightblade, but I still really enjoy switching over to my Warden and Necromancer (and the rest of my 18 characters).

It's not that people are required to play all the classes, but they owe it to themselves to at least try a class before complaining about it. That way they won't make ignorant comments that show blatant hypocrisy. I mean, aside from that fact that the magicka investment required for cloak was even mentioned in the quoted post, and that it isn't required to cast magelight every 3 seconds to stop a cloaking Nightblade, and that casting magelight is far from the only counter to cloak.

So try to play the gankblade you complain about. You might learn it's not as OP as you think. A little empathy goes a long way.

I play every class. And have the most PVP playtime on my nightblades. My experience with nightblade and other classes doesn't blind me to the fact that cloak is way overtuned and incredibly one-sided as both an offensive and defensive tool with little drawback, and the added requirement that classes have to use valuable bar/potion slots to directly counter this one skill.

But if cloak is the only viable defensive means for a nightblade and should be respected as such, let's compare the raw power that cloak has compared to another defensive tool in the sorcerer toolkit: Hardened Ward.

Cloak:
- Invisibility makes you untargetable
- Untargettable and invisible by every player in the area
- Can hit it once, and be safe for 3 seconds if not revealed
- Requires a specific expensive skills or potion slotted by opponents to effectively counter
- Regular skills that may remove from stealth require extreme luck to do so, including somehow perfectly predicting movements of a player while invisible. (Great, I can spam jabs, expensively, in circles and eat my mag/stam, and hit absolutely nothing while the NB is 20 meters away preparing another burst)
- Provides and automatic crit opportunity offensively
- Allows for unpredictable repositioning, offensively and defensively
- There are a lot more situational advantages to cloak as well here, like being able to be directly on top of other players without them knowing unless they are spamming skills they are forced to slot.

Hardened Ward:
- Still targetable, including crittable, and can be entirely consumed in one attack + light attack
- Every offensive skill in the game works to eat away at shields
- Doesn't scale to the number of players attacking
- Very expensive, and under heavy pressure require spamming often.
- Zero offensive benefits
- Using shield still means you are entirely targettable by enemies

And that is just Hardened ward, no other class has even remotely a defensive skill that is anywhere as good as cloak defensively or offensively. The closest to raw power may be Corrosive Armor or Necro transform, but those are expensive ultimates. And even then, cloak is better than those defensively.

IMO, the easiest fix to cloak would be to make it to where all player based AOE damage breaks it, DOT or direct damage. But, also, increase the cloak time to 5 seconds, but give it a 6 second cooldown. So you cannot cast earlier to refresh cloak and you will always have 1 second of visibility.

DrSlaughtr

jaws343 wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

@TheEndBringer wdym last changes to cloak is definitely a buff. They made sure no DoT pulls out of cloak, even ground ones. If you can argue that it was just "fix", they also made it so your dots don't pull out of cloak.

It was a bug fix by their own admission. It was always meant to do that. Why? I'll tell you (even though I already pointed this out).

I do not have a proper burst heal on NB. Every other class has at least one (and some have more than one) great burst heal. The only burst heal in siphoning is just as likely to accidently hit another player than me AND it eats health in return. Swallow soul is a hot and requires you to target an enemy. Sap essence is a baby burst but again, is primarily an attack.

So what is my defense against haunting curse that can do 8 to 10k ticks on me? Shadowy disguise. That will require me to hit SD AT LEAST 4 times at about 15k mag to not get destroyed by one tick of that?

So are we going to pretend like that's some crazy advantages? Any other class can either outright ignored it or heal through it with one HOT.

Even with shadowy disguise I have to run invisible pots because the skill is so expensive and it's impossible to get through a keep past guards without burning every last ounce of mag.

I tell you what. You want to put a CD on shadowy? Here's what you'll have to do.

Increase is duration
Decrease the cost.
Remove the stealth breaking from guards.
Give NBs a proper heal like honor the dead or coagulating.

Do all that and slap a cooldown on it. Because if you don't do all those things you just destroyed the class for both PVP and PvE.

That's all pointless though because EVERYONE can already force a cooldown with skills and pots. Just because some players are not good at using those tactics (or refuse to) doesn't mean ZOS should gut the class until it bleeds out faster than a 22k glass cannon defenseless on siege.

There are basic tactics everyone could just to negate a ganker.

1. Everyone stay on ram.

2.. Never send one dude to rez a body.

3. If you are sieging alone, keep flare under your feet.

If you are running down a NB, use the busy system. One of you hit mage light or camo hunter every 3 seconds while the other does the damage.

You do those and most NBs are dead. If you refuse to do those things then that's not the NB's fault.

If you want to be mad at something, be mad at the builds which allow one person to wipe out an entire 12 man group with two skills.

I just had to laugh at the "use magelight every 3 seconds" bit.

Sure, I'll just spend 5K mag every 3 seconds just to find another player, with a buddy who is doing the damage. Because that is reasonable somehow. If it takes 5K mag + another player to even find a player using cloak, cloak is a problem.

If two players, one using reveal and the other dropping damage, can't kill one NB with one or two ticks, then the NB is either much better at surviving or those two players are that bad at killing. Either way that's not a failure of reveal. It's a failure to properly execute a target when you have 4 seconds to nuke a target with sub 25k health and under 20k armor.

Secondly, you already do this to counter other builds. That DK you can't 1v1? Have a buddy CCing and coordinating a negate. Same goes for mist kiters, mini ball groups, etc etc. This is how the game works. If you can't kill someone on your own, you work with allies to get the job done.

People abandoned purge because of one set. People started wearing snow treaders again because of one set. Sorcs are back to negate rotations because of one class running one set. Everything has counters.

But the fact remains, there is no class that have so many built in defenses available to everyone else than NB. Not to mention the fact you very likely have friendly NBs at every battle who should be protecting the rest of the group.

It seems to me that every single one of these threads comes down to players refusing to be inconvenienced to do the minimum amount of effort to counter nightblades because they just want to be able to stand around spamming attacks and face tanking damage they can see coming.

DrSlaughtr

jaws343 wrote: »

IMO, the easiest fix to cloak would be to make it to where all player based AOE damage breaks it, DOT or direct damage. But, also, increase the cloak time to 5 seconds, but give it a 6 second cooldown. So you cannot cast earlier to refresh cloak and you will always have 1 second of visibility.

I already explained why this wouldn't work a few posts back but I'll give a quick retort.

The game forces NBs to spam cloak. The moment I get 3 meters from the gate house to a safe spot on a wall I have to hit it 3 or 4 times. To get inside the inner to the third floor? 4 to 5 times.

And then there's defenses. It's our only defense. We lack a big heal like honor the dead or coagulating. It's funny you mentioned hardened ward. A class that has MULTIPLE big burst heals, as well as shields, as well as a great escape skill. That's what you're going to choose as an example here? C'mon man.

Every class has a diverse toolkit with the potential for exceptional damage AND survivability... except NB. This is what we're built for. Either follow my tips or not. But we aren't going to accept getting obliterated because we're inconvenient to fight.

Merforum

jaws343 wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

@TheEndBringer wdym last changes to cloak is definitely a buff. They made sure no DoT pulls out of cloak, even ground ones. If you can argue that it was just "fix", they also made it so your dots don't pull out of cloak.

It was a bug fix by their own admission. It was always meant to do that. Why? I'll tell you (even though I already pointed this out).

I do not have a proper burst heal on NB. Every other class has at least one (and some have more than one) great burst heal. The only burst heal in siphoning is just as likely to accidently hit another player than me AND it eats health in return. Swallow soul is a hot and requires you to target an enemy. Sap essence is a baby burst but again, is primarily an attack.

So what is my defense against haunting curse that can do 8 to 10k ticks on me? Shadowy disguise. That will require me to hit SD AT LEAST 4 times at about 15k mag to not get destroyed by one tick of that?

So are we going to pretend like that's some crazy advantages? Any other class can either outright ignored it or heal through it with one HOT.

Even with shadowy disguise I have to run invisible pots because the skill is so expensive and it's impossible to get through a keep past guards without burning every last ounce of mag.

I tell you what. You want to put a CD on shadowy? Here's what you'll have to do.

Increase is duration
Decrease the cost.
Remove the stealth breaking from guards.
Give NBs a proper heal like honor the dead or coagulating.

Do all that and slap a cooldown on it. Because if you don't do all those things you just destroyed the class for both PVP and PvE.

That's all pointless though because EVERYONE can already force a cooldown with skills and pots. Just because some players are not good at using those tactics (or refuse to) doesn't mean ZOS should gut the class until it bleeds out faster than a 22k glass cannon defenseless on siege.

There are basic tactics everyone could just to negate a ganker.

1. Everyone stay on ram.

2.. Never send one dude to rez a body.

3. If you are sieging alone, keep flare under your feet.

If you are running down a NB, use the busy system. One of you hit mage light or camo hunter every 3 seconds while the other does the damage.

You do those and most NBs are dead. If you refuse to do those things then that's not the NB's fault.

If you want to be mad at something, be mad at the builds which allow one person to wipe out an entire 12 man group with two skills.

I just had to laugh at the "use magelight every 3 seconds" bit.

Sure, I'll just spend 5K mag every 3 seconds just to find another player, with a buddy who is doing the damage. Because that is reasonable somehow. If it takes 5K mag + another player to even find a player using cloak, cloak is a problem.

Hmm, imagine having to use a bunch of magicka to keep an ability up in order for it to be even remotely usable... It's not like Nightblades ever have to ever do that ever.

This is the problem - nobody has empathy for other classes. Okay, someone mains a single class. So what? They should still be able to sympathize with other classes. They can still make other classes and use them to, in the very least, understand them. I main a Nightblade, but I understand that other classes need their own unique things to make them fun to play and effective in the game. I main a Nightblade, but I still really enjoy switching over to my Warden and Necromancer (and the rest of my 18 characters).

It's not that people are required to play all the classes, but they owe it to themselves to at least try a class before complaining about it. That way they won't make ignorant comments that show blatant hypocrisy. I mean, aside from that fact that the magicka investment required for cloak was even mentioned in the quoted post, and that it isn't required to cast magelight every 3 seconds to stop a cloaking Nightblade, and that casting magelight is far from the only counter to cloak.

So try to play the gankblade you complain about. You might learn it's not as OP as you think. A little empathy goes a long way.

I play every class. And have the most PVP playtime on my nightblades. My experience with nightblade and other classes doesn't blind me to the fact that cloak is way overtuned and incredibly one-sided as both an offensive and defensive tool with little drawback, and the added requirement that classes have to use valuable bar/potion slots to directly counter this one skill.

But if cloak is the only viable defensive means for a nightblade and should be respected as such, let's compare the raw power that cloak has compared to another defensive tool in the sorcerer toolkit: Hardened Ward.

Cloak:
- Invisibility makes you untargetable
- Untargettable and invisible by every player in the area
- Can hit it once, and be safe for 3 seconds if not revealed
- Requires a specific expensive skills or potion slotted by opponents to effectively counter
- Regular skills that may remove from stealth require extreme luck to do so, including somehow perfectly predicting movements of a player while invisible. (Great, I can spam jabs, expensively, in circles and eat my mag/stam, and hit absolutely nothing while the NB is 20 meters away preparing another burst)
- Provides and automatic crit opportunity offensively
- Allows for unpredictable repositioning, offensively and defensively
- There are a lot more situational advantages to cloak as well here, like being able to be directly on top of other players without them knowing unless they are spamming skills they are forced to slot.

Hardened Ward:
- Still targetable, including crittable, and can be entirely consumed in one attack + light attack
- Every offensive skill in the game works to eat away at shields
- Doesn't scale to the number of players attacking
- Very expensive, and under heavy pressure require spamming often.
- Zero offensive benefits
- Using shield still means you are entirely targettable by enemies

And that is just Hardened ward, no other class has even remotely a defensive skill that is anywhere as good as cloak defensively or offensively. The closest to raw power may be Corrosive Armor or Necro transform, but those are expensive ultimates. And even then, cloak is better than those defensively.

IMO, the easiest fix to cloak would be to make it to where all player based AOE damage breaks it, DOT or direct damage. But, also, increase the cloak time to 5 seconds, but give it a 6 second cooldown. So you cannot cast earlier to refresh cloak and you will always have 1 second of visibility.

Great points, it is always people who play all classes who can appreciate when one skill is OP. People who play only one or 2 classes never want to lose insanely OP stuff because they know how good it is too and don't want to play without it. When I play NB and use inviso I literally feel like I do when I play single player games with a godmod installed, it is just boringly easy, trivializes combat. In Lost Ark there is only one skill that I know of that adds anything like inviso and it has something lile a TWELVE MINUTE cooldown if I remember correctly, MINUTES that is how powerful other games take inviso in PVP.

BTW your solution seems perfectly reasonable and I would say that buffing some other skills would also be in order. Someone else in the thread made a suggestion for it to super enhance normal stealth plus add HOT. Another solution which yours solves by the cooldown is just make it so it can't be used 'in combat' meaning you get your insane ambush possibility but you can't use it over and over. Since they still have literally the best escape too in the game outside of inviso, shade, streak is close 3rd. Here's another option make it an ULT that can't be detected, and only goes away once you enter combat.

BTW THERE ARE NO GUARD IN BGs, why are guards constantly being brought up. Also any limiting of inviso should include buffing of other skills, although with all the siphoning skills it is disingenuous to say NBs are useless defensively and I will tell you in PVE my NB tanks are my fav, far from squishy.

BTW2 healing in PVP is off the charts so that is a different issue, allowing only 1 self HOT and 1 burst heal per second plus 1 external HOT and 1 external burst heal would go a long way to fixing the overhealing issue.

BTW3 there should be an extreme risk putting everything into damage and expecting to kill anyone. If you miss you die. You should NOT be able to do that an just get away over and over. That is a big problem with PVP since beginning. Or you create a balanced build, you get an insane first strike that doesn't outright kill anyone, but gives you a gigantic advantage to continue fighting. It is a matter of what is good for the game, second option seem infinitely more realistic, sustainable and fun.

Villanelf

For me the balance is that if I want to build into maintaining good cloak uptime and still do decent damage / get unassisted kills I need to be glass cannon and lower hp.

Kill in 1 second or run the risk of being killed in 2 (e.g by a DK who has taken my full burst, healed up from nearly dead, cc'd then 2 shot killed me).

This risk / reward is why I love the assassin, stealth class that is nightblade.

DaggersKid

„ Cloak:
- Invisibility makes you untargetable
- Untargettable and invisible by every player in the area
- Can hit it once, and be safe for 3 seconds if not revealed
- Requires a specific expensive skills or potion slotted by opponents to effectively counter
- Regular skills that may remove from stealth require extreme luck to do so, including somehow perfectly predicting movements of a player while invisible. (Great, I can spam jabs, expensively, in circles and eat my mag/stam, and hit absolutely nothing while the NB is 20 meters away preparing another burst)
- Provides and automatic crit opportunity offensively
- Allows for unpredictable repositioning, offensively and defensively
- There are a lot more situational advantages to cloak as well here, like being able to be directly on top of other players without them knowing unless they are spamming skills they are forced to slot.

Hardened Ward:
- Still targetable, including crittable, and can be entirely consumed in one attack + light attack
- Every offensive skill in the game works to eat away at shields
- Doesn't scale to the number of players attacking
- Very expensive, and under heavy pressure require spamming often.
- Zero offensive benefits
- Using shield still means you are entirely targettable by enemies

And that is just Hardened ward, no other class has even remotely a defensive skill that is anywhere as good as cloak defensively or offensively. The closest to raw power may be Corrosive Armor or Necro transform, but those are expensive ultimates. And even then, cloak is better than those defensively.

IMO, the easiest fix to cloak would be to make it to where all player based AOE damage breaks it, DOT or direct damage. But, also, increase the cloak time to 5 seconds, but give it a 6 second cooldown. So you cannot cast earlier to refresh cloak and you will always have 1 second of visibility.“

your points are very cherry-picked and one-sided:

- stamblades (the only one using shadowy disguise anymore, because it is so useless, but we have no other option except going magblade) aren‘t duel classes. so mostly you have several enemies around you. chance for one of them to spam flare around (many people have it on their bar not bc nbs, but because major protection), or magelight, or camo hunter (many stamclasses have that slotted not bc of nbs, but for the passive buffs) or detection pot is in my experience bigger than 50% and if they saw you already around 90-100%. meaning cloak is almost useless for the fight.

- how do you need luck to hit an aoe or streak? you just need a brain and most times not even that.

- spam jabs? as a templar you can predict exactly when i will be decloaked, meaning when purifying light deals damage (6 seconds). then you purify again, gapclose, jab and slow me down —> jabs hit me over and over, if you play it right. then combo the off-going purifying light with crescent sweep and execute me… ofc i now use elude and against bad templars you can dodge roll through them into cloak. but does that help me? you ever thought about the fact, that a nb spamming cloak / running / dodging deals zero dmg to you meanwhile? burst after decloak? nope i just get slowed down more bc bubble and you lose like 40% hp max theough block (so easy to block or dodge nbs burst) and heal up with one skill.

- most nbs are easy to predict and only hard with shadow image (still doesn‘t help us actually kill a magplar or magdk).

- just keep buffs up while sieging or mounting, then you hold block if you hear our loud ult with cast time, click one skill and be full health again. everyone can kill you out of stealth if you stand without buffs or readiness to block…

- hardened ward is obviously not comparable to cloak (does very different things and is just one of sorcs defensive tools). if you combine hardened ward and streak then you maybe can compare both together with cloak.
- hardened ward can and is used offensively, because it gives you a layer of defence allowing you to go into offense for a short while without worrying about health.
- if you spam hardened ward, you have zero idea on how to play a sorc… sorc is about mobility and burst, not sitting and spamming shields. if you are in a pinch you use resto ult, streak through enemies and line of sight or streak away to kill them in delayed 1-1 burst combinations when they run after you…

conclusion you play pvp on a casual base and are not very experienced in how several classes (nb, sorc, templar) work and play out. so i wouldn‘t take your opinion on cloak serious or as an important one…

xylena_lazarow

TheEndBringer wrote: »

The game forces NBs to spam cloak. The moment I get 3 meters from the gate house to a safe spot on a wall I have to hit it 3 or 4 times. To get inside the inner to the third floor? 4 to 5 times.

Yes this is the result of gutting their entire kit outside of cloak spam. They've lost so much versatility.

jaws343

DaggersKid wrote: »

„ Cloak:
- Invisibility makes you untargetable
- Untargettable and invisible by every player in the area
- Can hit it once, and be safe for 3 seconds if not revealed
- Requires a specific expensive skills or potion slotted by opponents to effectively counter
- Regular skills that may remove from stealth require extreme luck to do so, including somehow perfectly predicting movements of a player while invisible. (Great, I can spam jabs, expensively, in circles and eat my mag/stam, and hit absolutely nothing while the NB is 20 meters away preparing another burst)
- Provides and automatic crit opportunity offensively
- Allows for unpredictable repositioning, offensively and defensively
- There are a lot more situational advantages to cloak as well here, like being able to be directly on top of other players without them knowing unless they are spamming skills they are forced to slot.

Hardened Ward:
- Still targetable, including crittable, and can be entirely consumed in one attack + light attack
- Every offensive skill in the game works to eat away at shields
- Doesn't scale to the number of players attacking
- Very expensive, and under heavy pressure require spamming often.
- Zero offensive benefits
- Using shield still means you are entirely targettable by enemies

And that is just Hardened ward, no other class has even remotely a defensive skill that is anywhere as good as cloak defensively or offensively. The closest to raw power may be Corrosive Armor or Necro transform, but those are expensive ultimates. And even then, cloak is better than those defensively.

IMO, the easiest fix to cloak would be to make it to where all player based AOE damage breaks it, DOT or direct damage. But, also, increase the cloak time to 5 seconds, but give it a 6 second cooldown. So you cannot cast earlier to refresh cloak and you will always have 1 second of visibility.“

your points are very cherry-picked and one-sided:

- stamblades (the only one using shadowy disguise anymore, because it is so useless, but we have no other option except going magblade) aren‘t duel classes. so mostly you have several enemies around you. chance for one of them to spam flare around (many people have it on their bar not bc nbs, but because major protection), or magelight, or camo hunter (many stamclasses have that slotted not bc of nbs, but for the passive buffs) or detection pot is in my experience bigger than 50% and if they saw you already around 90-100%. meaning cloak is almost useless for the fight.

- how do you need luck to hit an aoe or streak? you just need a brain and most times not even that.

- spam jabs? as a templar you can predict exactly when i will be decloaked, meaning when purifying light deals damage (6 seconds). then you purify again, gapclose, jab and slow me down —> jabs hit me over and over, if you play it right. then combo the off-going purifying light with crescent sweep and execute me… ofc i now use elude and against bad templars you can dodge roll through them into cloak. but does that help me? you ever thought about the fact, that a nb spamming cloak / running / dodging deals zero dmg to you meanwhile? burst after decloak? nope i just get slowed down more bc bubble and you lose like 40% hp max theough block (so easy to block or dodge nbs burst) and heal up with one skill.

- most nbs are easy to predict and only hard with shadow image (still doesn‘t help us actually kill a magplar or magdk).

- just keep buffs up while sieging or mounting, then you hold block if you hear our loud ult with cast time, click one skill and be full health again. everyone can kill you out of stealth if you stand without buffs or readiness to block…

- hardened ward is obviously not comparable to cloak (does very different things and is just one of sorcs defensive tools). if you combine hardened ward and streak then you maybe can compare both together with cloak.
- hardened ward can and is used offensively, because it gives you a layer of defence allowing you to go into offense for a short while without worrying about health.
- if you spam hardened ward, you have zero idea on how to play a sorc… sorc is about mobility and burst, not sitting and spamming shields. if you are in a pinch you use resto ult, streak through enemies and line of sight or streak away to kill them in delayed 1-1 burst combinations when they run after you…

conclusion you play pvp on a casual base and are not very experienced in how several classes (nb, sorc, templar) work and play out. so i wouldn‘t take your opinion on cloak serious or as an important one…

That's not using the skill offensively. That's still using it defensively and then going on offense. Major difference. Cloak literally makes your next damage skill crit. Good night blades use cloak to lineup that crit and then also to escape. Ward doesn't buff anything offensively.

And of course, ward is used with other skills. You know what, so is cloak. Cloak and shade is easily the best defensive combo in the game.

As for spamming ward, plenty of defensive skills are spammed under pressure, even cloak. Don't see how that discredits anything.

The whole point of my comparison was to compare two defensive skills that are the primary defenses in two toolkits. Ward is the primary defense tool for a sorc and it is vastly inferior to cloak.

And no, as much as NB mains want to tout that cloak is so easy to break, it isn't. Fighting a good night lade using cloak is pretty much impossible without like 5 people spamming reveals. Sure, you can crush a bad NB, just as easily as you can crush a bad player on any class. But that isn't really relevant.

And also, what is the point of personal attacks? I've got plenty of PVP experience, but that isn't even really relevant. And there really is no need to end a counterpoint by personally attacking me.

divnyi

TheEndBringer wrote: »

I do not have a proper burst heal on NB. Every other class has at least one (and some have more than one) great burst heal. The only burst heal in siphoning is just as likely to accidently hit another player than me AND it eats health in return.

It heals you or someone in front of you. Target it in the wall and that's it, the heal is all yours.

So many wild exaggerations flying in this thread lmao. Cloak equals Corrosive Armor. Cloak wasn't buffed.
Can you people discuss things instead of moan?

Merforum

Merforum wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

@TheEndBringer wdym last changes to cloak is definitely a buff. They made sure no DoT pulls out of cloak, even ground ones. If you can argue that it was just "fix", they also made it so your dots don't pull out of cloak.

It was a bug fix by their own admission. It was always meant to do that. Why? I'll tell you (even though I already pointed this out).

I do not have a proper burst heal on NB. Every other class has at least one (and some have more than one) great burst heal. The only burst heal in siphoning is just as likely to accidently hit another player than me AND it eats health in return. Swallow soul is a hot and requires you to target an enemy. Sap essence is a baby burst but again, is primarily an attack.

So what is my defense against haunting curse that can do 8 to 10k ticks on me? Shadowy disguise. That will require me to hit SD AT LEAST 4 times at about 15k mag to not get destroyed by one tick of that?

So are we going to pretend like that's some crazy advantages? Any other class can either outright ignored it or heal through it with one HOT.

Even with shadowy disguise I have to run invisible pots because the skill is so expensive and it's impossible to get through a keep past guards without burning every last ounce of mag.

I tell you what. You want to put a CD on shadowy? Here's what you'll have to do.

Increase is duration
Decrease the cost.
Remove the stealth breaking from guards.
Give NBs a proper heal like honor the dead or coagulating.

Do all that and slap a cooldown on it. Because if you don't do all those things you just destroyed the class for both PVP and PvE.

That's all pointless though because EVERYONE can already force a cooldown with skills and pots. Just because some players are not good at using those tactics (or refuse to) doesn't mean ZOS should gut the class until it bleeds out faster than a 22k glass cannon defenseless on siege.

There are basic tactics everyone could just to negate a ganker.

1. Everyone stay on ram.

2.. Never send one dude to rez a body.

3. If you are sieging alone, keep flare under your feet.

If you are running down a NB, use the busy system. One of you hit mage light or camo hunter every 3 seconds while the other does the damage.

You do those and most NBs are dead. If you refuse to do those things then that's not the NB's fault.

If you want to be mad at something, be mad at the builds which allow one person to wipe out an entire 12 man group with two skills.

I just had to laugh at the "use magelight every 3 seconds" bit.

Sure, I'll just spend 5K mag every 3 seconds just to find another player, with a buddy who is doing the damage. Because that is reasonable somehow. If it takes 5K mag + another player to even find a player using cloak, cloak is a problem.

Hmm, imagine having to use a bunch of magicka to keep an ability up in order for it to be even remotely usable... It's not like Nightblades ever have to ever do that ever.

This is the problem - nobody has empathy for other classes. Okay, someone mains a single class. So what? They should still be able to sympathize with other classes. They can still make other classes and use them to, in the very least, understand them. I main a Nightblade, but I understand that other classes need their own unique things to make them fun to play and effective in the game. I main a Nightblade, but I still really enjoy switching over to my Warden and Necromancer (and the rest of my 18 characters).

It's not that people are required to play all the classes, but they owe it to themselves to at least try a class before complaining about it. That way they won't make ignorant comments that show blatant hypocrisy. I mean, aside from that fact that the magicka investment required for cloak was even mentioned in the quoted post, and that it isn't required to cast magelight every 3 seconds to stop a cloaking Nightblade, and that casting magelight is far from the only counter to cloak.

So try to play the gankblade you complain about. You might learn it's not as OP as you think. A little empathy goes a long way.

I play every class. And have the most PVP playtime on my nightblades. My experience with nightblade and other classes doesn't blind me to the fact that cloak is way overtuned and incredibly one-sided as both an offensive and defensive tool with little drawback, and the added requirement that classes have to use valuable bar/potion slots to directly counter this one skill.

But if cloak is the only viable defensive means for a nightblade and should be respected as such, let's compare the raw power that cloak has compared to another defensive tool in the sorcerer toolkit: Hardened Ward.

Cloak:
- Invisibility makes you untargetable
- Untargettable and invisible by every player in the area
- Can hit it once, and be safe for 3 seconds if not revealed
- Requires a specific expensive skills or potion slotted by opponents to effectively counter
- Regular skills that may remove from stealth require extreme luck to do so, including somehow perfectly predicting movements of a player while invisible. (Great, I can spam jabs, expensively, in circles and eat my mag/stam, and hit absolutely nothing while the NB is 20 meters away preparing another burst)
- Provides and automatic crit opportunity offensively
- Allows for unpredictable repositioning, offensively and defensively
- There are a lot more situational advantages to cloak as well here, like being able to be directly on top of other players without them knowing unless they are spamming skills they are forced to slot.

Hardened Ward:
- Still targetable, including crittable, and can be entirely consumed in one attack + light attack
- Every offensive skill in the game works to eat away at shields
- Doesn't scale to the number of players attacking
- Very expensive, and under heavy pressure require spamming often.
- Zero offensive benefits
- Using shield still means you are entirely targettable by enemies

And that is just Hardened ward, no other class has even remotely a defensive skill that is anywhere as good as cloak defensively or offensively. The closest to raw power may be Corrosive Armor or Necro transform, but those are expensive ultimates. And even then, cloak is better than those defensively.

IMO, the easiest fix to cloak would be to make it to where all player based AOE damage breaks it, DOT or direct damage. But, also, increase the cloak time to 5 seconds, but give it a 6 second cooldown. So you cannot cast earlier to refresh cloak and you will always have 1 second of visibility.

Great points, it is always people who play all classes who can appreciate when one skill is OP. People who play only one or 2 classes never want to lose insanely OP stuff because they know how good it is too and don't want to play without it. When I play NB and use inviso I literally feel like I do when I play single player games with a godmod installed, it is just boringly easy, trivializes combat. In Lost Ark there is only one skill that I know of that adds anything like inviso and it has something lile a TWELVE MINUTE cooldown if I remember correctly, MINUTES that is how powerful other games take inviso in PVP.

BTW your solution seems perfectly reasonable and I would say that buffing some other skills would also be in order. Someone else in the thread made a suggestion for it to super enhance normal stealth plus add HOT. Another solution which yours solves by the cooldown is just make it so it can't be used 'in combat' meaning you get your insane ambush possibility but you can't use it over and over. Since they still have literally the best escape too in the game outside of inviso, shade, streak is close 3rd. Here's another option make it an ULT that can't be detected, and only goes away once you enter combat.

BTW THERE ARE NO GUARD IN BGs, why are guards constantly being brought up. Also any limiting of inviso should include buffing of other skills, although with all the siphoning skills it is disingenuous to say NBs are useless defensively and I will tell you in PVE my NB tanks are my fav, far from squishy.

BTW2 healing in PVP is off the charts so that is a different issue, allowing only 1 self HOT and 1 burst heal per second plus 1 external HOT and 1 external burst heal would go a long way to fixing the overhealing issue.

BTW3 there should be an extreme risk putting everything into damage and expecting to kill anyone. If you miss you die. You should NOT be able to do that an just get away over and over. That is a big problem with PVP since beginning. Or you create a balanced build, you get an insane first strike that doesn't outright kill anyone, but gives you a gigantic advantage to continue fighting. It is a matter of what is good for the game, second option seem infinitely more realistic, sustainable and fun.

TRIVIA Question: which one class in one game feels entitled to kill any player instantly (making the game and combat jokingly easy) and if they miss to always get away (giving absolutely no risk), and anything change to that situation is out of the question?

DrSlaughtr

Merforum wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

@TheEndBringer wdym last changes to cloak is definitely a buff. They made sure no DoT pulls out of cloak, even ground ones. If you can argue that it was just "fix", they also made it so your dots don't pull out of cloak.

It was a bug fix by their own admission. It was always meant to do that. Why? I'll tell you (even though I already pointed this out).

I do not have a proper burst heal on NB. Every other class has at least one (and some have more than one) great burst heal. The only burst heal in siphoning is just as likely to accidently hit another player than me AND it eats health in return. Swallow soul is a hot and requires you to target an enemy. Sap essence is a baby burst but again, is primarily an attack.

So what is my defense against haunting curse that can do 8 to 10k ticks on me? Shadowy disguise. That will require me to hit SD AT LEAST 4 times at about 15k mag to not get destroyed by one tick of that?

So are we going to pretend like that's some crazy advantages? Any other class can either outright ignored it or heal through it with one HOT.

Even with shadowy disguise I have to run invisible pots because the skill is so expensive and it's impossible to get through a keep past guards without burning every last ounce of mag.

I tell you what. You want to put a CD on shadowy? Here's what you'll have to do.

Increase is duration
Decrease the cost.
Remove the stealth breaking from guards.
Give NBs a proper heal like honor the dead or coagulating.

Do all that and slap a cooldown on it. Because if you don't do all those things you just destroyed the class for both PVP and PvE.

That's all pointless though because EVERYONE can already force a cooldown with skills and pots. Just because some players are not good at using those tactics (or refuse to) doesn't mean ZOS should gut the class until it bleeds out faster than a 22k glass cannon defenseless on siege.

There are basic tactics everyone could just to negate a ganker.

1. Everyone stay on ram.

2.. Never send one dude to rez a body.

3. If you are sieging alone, keep flare under your feet.

If you are running down a NB, use the busy system. One of you hit mage light or camo hunter every 3 seconds while the other does the damage.

You do those and most NBs are dead. If you refuse to do those things then that's not the NB's fault.

If you want to be mad at something, be mad at the builds which allow one person to wipe out an entire 12 man group with two skills.

I just had to laugh at the "use magelight every 3 seconds" bit.

Sure, I'll just spend 5K mag every 3 seconds just to find another player, with a buddy who is doing the damage. Because that is reasonable somehow. If it takes 5K mag + another player to even find a player using cloak, cloak is a problem.

Hmm, imagine having to use a bunch of magicka to keep an ability up in order for it to be even remotely usable... It's not like Nightblades ever have to ever do that ever.

This is the problem - nobody has empathy for other classes. Okay, someone mains a single class. So what? They should still be able to sympathize with other classes. They can still make other classes and use them to, in the very least, understand them. I main a Nightblade, but I understand that other classes need their own unique things to make them fun to play and effective in the game. I main a Nightblade, but I still really enjoy switching over to my Warden and Necromancer (and the rest of my 18 characters).

It's not that people are required to play all the classes, but they owe it to themselves to at least try a class before complaining about it. That way they won't make ignorant comments that show blatant hypocrisy. I mean, aside from that fact that the magicka investment required for cloak was even mentioned in the quoted post, and that it isn't required to cast magelight every 3 seconds to stop a cloaking Nightblade, and that casting magelight is far from the only counter to cloak.

So try to play the gankblade you complain about. You might learn it's not as OP as you think. A little empathy goes a long way.

I play every class. And have the most PVP playtime on my nightblades. My experience with nightblade and other classes doesn't blind me to the fact that cloak is way overtuned and incredibly one-sided as both an offensive and defensive tool with little drawback, and the added requirement that classes have to use valuable bar/potion slots to directly counter this one skill.

But if cloak is the only viable defensive means for a nightblade and should be respected as such, let's compare the raw power that cloak has compared to another defensive tool in the sorcerer toolkit: Hardened Ward.

Cloak:
- Invisibility makes you untargetable
- Untargettable and invisible by every player in the area
- Can hit it once, and be safe for 3 seconds if not revealed
- Requires a specific expensive skills or potion slotted by opponents to effectively counter
- Regular skills that may remove from stealth require extreme luck to do so, including somehow perfectly predicting movements of a player while invisible. (Great, I can spam jabs, expensively, in circles and eat my mag/stam, and hit absolutely nothing while the NB is 20 meters away preparing another burst)
- Provides and automatic crit opportunity offensively
- Allows for unpredictable repositioning, offensively and defensively
- There are a lot more situational advantages to cloak as well here, like being able to be directly on top of other players without them knowing unless they are spamming skills they are forced to slot.

Hardened Ward:
- Still targetable, including crittable, and can be entirely consumed in one attack + light attack
- Every offensive skill in the game works to eat away at shields
- Doesn't scale to the number of players attacking
- Very expensive, and under heavy pressure require spamming often.
- Zero offensive benefits
- Using shield still means you are entirely targettable by enemies

And that is just Hardened ward, no other class has even remotely a defensive skill that is anywhere as good as cloak defensively or offensively. The closest to raw power may be Corrosive Armor or Necro transform, but those are expensive ultimates. And even then, cloak is better than those defensively.

IMO, the easiest fix to cloak would be to make it to where all player based AOE damage breaks it, DOT or direct damage. But, also, increase the cloak time to 5 seconds, but give it a 6 second cooldown. So you cannot cast earlier to refresh cloak and you will always have 1 second of visibility.

Great points, it is always people who play all classes who can appreciate when one skill is OP. People who play only one or 2 classes never want to lose insanely OP stuff because they know how good it is too and don't want to play without it. When I play NB and use inviso I literally feel like I do when I play single player games with a godmod installed, it is just boringly easy, trivializes combat. In Lost Ark there is only one skill that I know of that adds anything like inviso and it has something lile a TWELVE MINUTE cooldown if I remember correctly, MINUTES that is how powerful other games take inviso in PVP.

BTW your solution seems perfectly reasonable and I would say that buffing some other skills would also be in order. Someone else in the thread made a suggestion for it to super enhance normal stealth plus add HOT. Another solution which yours solves by the cooldown is just make it so it can't be used 'in combat' meaning you get your insane ambush possibility but you can't use it over and over. Since they still have literally the best escape too in the game outside of inviso, shade, streak is close 3rd. Here's another option make it an ULT that can't be detected, and only goes away once you enter combat.

BTW THERE ARE NO GUARD IN BGs, why are guards constantly being brought up. Also any limiting of inviso should include buffing of other skills, although with all the siphoning skills it is disingenuous to say NBs are useless defensively and I will tell you in PVE my NB tanks are my fav, far from squishy.

BTW2 healing in PVP is off the charts so that is a different issue, allowing only 1 self HOT and 1 burst heal per second plus 1 external HOT and 1 external burst heal would go a long way to fixing the overhealing issue.

BTW3 there should be an extreme risk putting everything into damage and expecting to kill anyone. If you miss you die. You should NOT be able to do that an just get away over and over. That is a big problem with PVP since beginning. Or you create a balanced build, you get an insane first strike that doesn't outright kill anyone, but gives you a gigantic advantage to continue fighting. It is a matter of what is good for the game, second option seem infinitely more realistic, sustainable and fun.

TRIVIA Question: which one class in one game feels entitled to kill any player instantly (making the game and combat jokingly easy) and if they miss to always get away (giving absolutely no risk), and anything change to that situation is out of the question?

If you're dying to one skill or one heavy attack, then that is a failure of your build or you were caught with your defenses down. Either way, a magDK could've nuked you just as easy.

DrSlaughtr

divnyi wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

I do not have a proper burst heal on NB. Every other class has at least one (and some have more than one) great burst heal. The only burst heal in siphoning is just as likely to accidently hit another player than me AND it eats health in return.

It heals you or someone in front of you. Target it in the wall and that's it, the heal is all yours.

So many wild exaggerations flying in this thread lmao. Cloak equals Corrosive Armor. Cloak wasn't buffed.
Can you people discuss things instead of moan?

Yes so let's spin around on the battlefield surrounded by enemies and allies to find some scrap of empty dirt to point at so I can use this bad heal that also eats health back with a dot.

As for buff, is was a bug fix by their own standard that made it a better defensive tool. They fixed this bug while actually buffing every reveal skill and adding other new counters to NBs. That isn't buffing

Norith_Gilheart_Flail

Completely agreed with the posts about removing stealth as a significant tool from NB's off the table. And I say this as a NB who unfortunately is far too invested with questing, motifs, crafting and alliance rank that I am only left with resentment at being put in into this F'ing box of stealth or die.

Give stealth a 10 second cooldown or something, and instead give us spell and physical resist as a passive, not tied to spamming surprise attack.

Give us a Major Spell Damage/Weapon Damage buff that isn't attached to a melee range aoe, or mages guild dot. Attach it to the otherwise commonly used Siphon ability or Gim Focus. End result being something desirable like Lotus Flower, Igneous Weapons, or Crit Surge.

Swallow Soul animation/delay needs to be reduced. Great, it has range. Or you could be DK and have Burning Embers which heals on first hit, also heals over time AND is a damage over time. Burning Embers has previously even been used as a their spammable. Couple with their synergies around health regen, it shouldn't be hard to keep a NB in comparison to have a proportionate dot and hot - that doesn't feel off with flow to weave, or make you fume in rage at all your casts being dodged.

Snipe also is just far, far too long. You wanna kill with now on NB? LA weave and poison injection. yawn.

Standardise the Execute ranges on all classes or bring them in line with weapons where they scale with reduced target health.

If Nightblades at launch were supposed to be the Rogue archetypes (as the artwork otherwise suggests) we are now in the position other classes can do a better job of it, and are more tanky. Which is what I wanted, not to puss around in stealth like a cheeky agitator.

It's hard to get people on board with improving NB's when they hate coming across them and delight in their misfortune.

And as above. [snip] with a heal with a health cost, and no other benefit. Even a Necro gets a boost to healing based on their incurred Defile.
As a Sorc, just slot a pet as a passive dps and instant cast heal? Hell, multi target? Breath of Life or Enchanted Growth.

Actually, this thread is just making me so angry the more I think about it I'm not sure I even want to continue playing.

[edited for profanity bypass]

umagon

Merforum wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

@TheEndBringer wdym last changes to cloak is definitely a buff. They made sure no DoT pulls out of cloak, even ground ones. If you can argue that it was just "fix", they also made it so your dots don't pull out of cloak.

It was a bug fix by their own admission. It was always meant to do that. Why? I'll tell you (even though I already pointed this out).

I do not have a proper burst heal on NB. Every other class has at least one (and some have more than one) great burst heal. The only burst heal in siphoning is just as likely to accidently hit another player than me AND it eats health in return. Swallow soul is a hot and requires you to target an enemy. Sap essence is a baby burst but again, is primarily an attack.

So what is my defense against haunting curse that can do 8 to 10k ticks on me? Shadowy disguise. That will require me to hit SD AT LEAST 4 times at about 15k mag to not get destroyed by one tick of that?

So are we going to pretend like that's some crazy advantages? Any other class can either outright ignored it or heal through it with one HOT.

Even with shadowy disguise I have to run invisible pots because the skill is so expensive and it's impossible to get through a keep past guards without burning every last ounce of mag.

I tell you what. You want to put a CD on shadowy? Here's what you'll have to do.

Increase is duration
Decrease the cost.
Remove the stealth breaking from guards.
Give NBs a proper heal like honor the dead or coagulating.

Do all that and slap a cooldown on it. Because if you don't do all those things you just destroyed the class for both PVP and PvE.

That's all pointless though because EVERYONE can already force a cooldown with skills and pots. Just because some players are not good at using those tactics (or refuse to) doesn't mean ZOS should gut the class until it bleeds out faster than a 22k glass cannon defenseless on siege.

There are basic tactics everyone could just to negate a ganker.

1. Everyone stay on ram.

2.. Never send one dude to rez a body.

3. If you are sieging alone, keep flare under your feet.

If you are running down a NB, use the busy system. One of you hit mage light or camo hunter every 3 seconds while the other does the damage.

You do those and most NBs are dead. If you refuse to do those things then that's not the NB's fault.

If you want to be mad at something, be mad at the builds which allow one person to wipe out an entire 12 man group with two skills.

I just had to laugh at the "use magelight every 3 seconds" bit.

Sure, I'll just spend 5K mag every 3 seconds just to find another player, with a buddy who is doing the damage. Because that is reasonable somehow. If it takes 5K mag + another player to even find a player using cloak, cloak is a problem.

Hmm, imagine having to use a bunch of magicka to keep an ability up in order for it to be even remotely usable... It's not like Nightblades ever have to ever do that ever.

This is the problem - nobody has empathy for other classes. Okay, someone mains a single class. So what? They should still be able to sympathize with other classes. They can still make other classes and use them to, in the very least, understand them. I main a Nightblade, but I understand that other classes need their own unique things to make them fun to play and effective in the game. I main a Nightblade, but I still really enjoy switching over to my Warden and Necromancer (and the rest of my 18 characters).

It's not that people are required to play all the classes, but they owe it to themselves to at least try a class before complaining about it. That way they won't make ignorant comments that show blatant hypocrisy. I mean, aside from that fact that the magicka investment required for cloak was even mentioned in the quoted post, and that it isn't required to cast magelight every 3 seconds to stop a cloaking Nightblade, and that casting magelight is far from the only counter to cloak.

So try to play the gankblade you complain about. You might learn it's not as OP as you think. A little empathy goes a long way.

I play every class. And have the most PVP playtime on my nightblades. My experience with nightblade and other classes doesn't blind me to the fact that cloak is way overtuned and incredibly one-sided as both an offensive and defensive tool with little drawback, and the added requirement that classes have to use valuable bar/potion slots to directly counter this one skill.

But if cloak is the only viable defensive means for a nightblade and should be respected as such, let's compare the raw power that cloak has compared to another defensive tool in the sorcerer toolkit: Hardened Ward.

Cloak:
- Invisibility makes you untargetable
- Untargettable and invisible by every player in the area
- Can hit it once, and be safe for 3 seconds if not revealed
- Requires a specific expensive skills or potion slotted by opponents to effectively counter
- Regular skills that may remove from stealth require extreme luck to do so, including somehow perfectly predicting movements of a player while invisible. (Great, I can spam jabs, expensively, in circles and eat my mag/stam, and hit absolutely nothing while the NB is 20 meters away preparing another burst)
- Provides and automatic crit opportunity offensively
- Allows for unpredictable repositioning, offensively and defensively
- There are a lot more situational advantages to cloak as well here, like being able to be directly on top of other players without them knowing unless they are spamming skills they are forced to slot.

Hardened Ward:
- Still targetable, including crittable, and can be entirely consumed in one attack + light attack
- Every offensive skill in the game works to eat away at shields
- Doesn't scale to the number of players attacking
- Very expensive, and under heavy pressure require spamming often.
- Zero offensive benefits
- Using shield still means you are entirely targettable by enemies

And that is just Hardened ward, no other class has even remotely a defensive skill that is anywhere as good as cloak defensively or offensively. The closest to raw power may be Corrosive Armor or Necro transform, but those are expensive ultimates. And even then, cloak is better than those defensively.

IMO, the easiest fix to cloak would be to make it to where all player based AOE damage breaks it, DOT or direct damage. But, also, increase the cloak time to 5 seconds, but give it a 6 second cooldown. So you cannot cast earlier to refresh cloak and you will always have 1 second of visibility.

Great points, it is always people who play all classes who can appreciate when one skill is OP. People who play only one or 2 classes never want to lose insanely OP stuff because they know how good it is too and don't want to play without it. When I play NB and use inviso I literally feel like I do when I play single player games with a godmod installed, it is just boringly easy, trivializes combat. In Lost Ark there is only one skill that I know of that adds anything like inviso and it has something lile a TWELVE MINUTE cooldown if I remember correctly, MINUTES that is how powerful other games take inviso in PVP.

BTW your solution seems perfectly reasonable and I would say that buffing some other skills would also be in order. Someone else in the thread made a suggestion for it to super enhance normal stealth plus add HOT. Another solution which yours solves by the cooldown is just make it so it can't be used 'in combat' meaning you get your insane ambush possibility but you can't use it over and over. Since they still have literally the best escape too in the game outside of inviso, shade, streak is close 3rd. Here's another option make it an ULT that can't be detected, and only goes away once you enter combat.

BTW THERE ARE NO GUARD IN BGs, why are guards constantly being brought up. Also any limiting of inviso should include buffing of other skills, although with all the siphoning skills it is disingenuous to say NBs are useless defensively and I will tell you in PVE my NB tanks are my fav, far from squishy.

BTW2 healing in PVP is off the charts so that is a different issue, allowing only 1 self HOT and 1 burst heal per second plus 1 external HOT and 1 external burst heal would go a long way to fixing the overhealing issue.

BTW3 there should be an extreme risk putting everything into damage and expecting to kill anyone. If you miss you die. You should NOT be able to do that an just get away over and over. That is a big problem with PVP since beginning. Or you create a balanced build, you get an insane first strike that doesn't outright kill anyone, but gives you a gigantic advantage to continue fighting. It is a matter of what is good for the game, second option seem infinitely more realistic, sustainable and fun.

TRIVIA Question: which one class in one game feels entitled to kill any player instantly (making the game and combat jokingly easy) and if they miss to always get away (giving absolutely no risk), and anything change to that situation is out of the question?

https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/classes

“Attack from the shadows, drain your foes' health, and vanish into the void with the Nightblade Class. The shadows truly are your greatest weapon as you wield abilities that deal devastating damage at any range and siphon your victim's lifeforce to your allies. Available with The Elder Scrolls Online base game.”

“As a Nightblade, all of Tamriel fears your deadly unseen strike.”

It’s not entitlement its literally what the class is supposed to do.

Villanelf

TRIVIA Question: which one class in one game feels entitled to kill any player instantly (making the game and combat jokingly easy) and if they miss to always get away (giving absolutely no risk), and anything change to that situation is out of the question?

https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/classes

“Attack from the shadows, drain your foes' health, and vanish into the void with the Nightblade Class. The shadows truly are your greatest weapon as you wield abilities that deal devastating damage at any range and siphon your victim's lifeforce to your allies. Available with The Elder Scrolls Online base game.”

“As a Nightblade, all of Tamriel fears your deadly unseen strike.”

It’s not entitlement its literally what the class is supposed to do.

"Embrace the shadows to find the perfect moment to strike or slip away without notice."

Mayrael

Phi... NBs are the easiest class to kill at least for me. Just keep your head calm. I just fight them till they are at around 50%, pop the detection potion and bam ez win, because of panic mode.

Seriously it's the only class that I'm not afraid of when I see one. They can't surprise me with anything.

About cloak. You know why it doesn't have cost increase like streak or dodge roll? Because it has no guaranteed effect. When you dodge or streak you always reposition your self no matter what, you always stun and deal damage in case of streak and always evade things ment be evaded with dodge. With cloak its not the case. NB can use cloak spent resources and get hit by single target abilities, he can still be seen, all the things cloak does can be turned off and NB has nothing to say about that.

I can agree on cloak recieving gradual cost increase under few conditions.

We get potions and skills that completely disable streak/BoL, dodge, heals and shields. I'll be happy if there will be skill and potion for each of those.

Note that I don't want to nerf those things I just want to have counters (same as counters to cloak) that will allow me to disable them. If you say that counters against cloak are bad and not worth of sloting then you should have no problems with SAME counters against other defences while cloak gets nerfed in return.

Answering upcoming arguments about shields, heals, dodge, streak having already counters like oblivion damage, gap closers, channeled abilities, beams, defiles etc. etc. These are soft counters, these don't disable those defences completely, they just make them less useful. Cloak has these to. Any direct damage AoE.

Do we have a deal?

DaggersKid

jaws343 wrote: »

DaggersKid wrote: »

„ Cloak:
- Invisibility makes you untargetable
- Untargettable and invisible by every player in the area
- Can hit it once, and be safe for 3 seconds if not revealed
- Requires a specific expensive skills or potion slotted by opponents to effectively counter
- Regular skills that may remove from stealth require extreme luck to do so, including somehow perfectly predicting movements of a player while invisible. (Great, I can spam jabs, expensively, in circles and eat my mag/stam, and hit absolutely nothing while the NB is 20 meters away preparing another burst)
- Provides and automatic crit opportunity offensively
- Allows for unpredictable repositioning, offensively and defensively
- There are a lot more situational advantages to cloak as well here, like being able to be directly on top of other players without them knowing unless they are spamming skills they are forced to slot.

Hardened Ward:
- Still targetable, including crittable, and can be entirely consumed in one attack + light attack
- Every offensive skill in the game works to eat away at shields
- Doesn't scale to the number of players attacking
- Very expensive, and under heavy pressure require spamming often.
- Zero offensive benefits
- Using shield still means you are entirely targettable by enemies

And that is just Hardened ward, no other class has even remotely a defensive skill that is anywhere as good as cloak defensively or offensively. The closest to raw power may be Corrosive Armor or Necro transform, but those are expensive ultimates. And even then, cloak is better than those defensively.

IMO, the easiest fix to cloak would be to make it to where all player based AOE damage breaks it, DOT or direct damage. But, also, increase the cloak time to 5 seconds, but give it a 6 second cooldown. So you cannot cast earlier to refresh cloak and you will always have 1 second of visibility.“

your points are very cherry-picked and one-sided:

- stamblades (the only one using shadowy disguise anymore, because it is so useless, but we have no other option except going magblade) aren‘t duel classes. so mostly you have several enemies around you. chance for one of them to spam flare around (many people have it on their bar not bc nbs, but because major protection), or magelight, or camo hunter (many stamclasses have that slotted not bc of nbs, but for the passive buffs) or detection pot is in my experience bigger than 50% and if they saw you already around 90-100%. meaning cloak is almost useless for the fight.

- how do you need luck to hit an aoe or streak? you just need a brain and most times not even that.

- spam jabs? as a templar you can predict exactly when i will be decloaked, meaning when purifying light deals damage (6 seconds). then you purify again, gapclose, jab and slow me down —> jabs hit me over and over, if you play it right. then combo the off-going purifying light with crescent sweep and execute me… ofc i now use elude and against bad templars you can dodge roll through them into cloak. but does that help me? you ever thought about the fact, that a nb spamming cloak / running / dodging deals zero dmg to you meanwhile? burst after decloak? nope i just get slowed down more bc bubble and you lose like 40% hp max theough block (so easy to block or dodge nbs burst) and heal up with one skill.

- most nbs are easy to predict and only hard with shadow image (still doesn‘t help us actually kill a magplar or magdk).

- just keep buffs up while sieging or mounting, then you hold block if you hear our loud ult with cast time, click one skill and be full health again. everyone can kill you out of stealth if you stand without buffs or readiness to block…

- hardened ward is obviously not comparable to cloak (does very different things and is just one of sorcs defensive tools). if you combine hardened ward and streak then you maybe can compare both together with cloak.
- hardened ward can and is used offensively, because it gives you a layer of defence allowing you to go into offense for a short while without worrying about health.
- if you spam hardened ward, you have zero idea on how to play a sorc… sorc is about mobility and burst, not sitting and spamming shields. if you are in a pinch you use resto ult, streak through enemies and line of sight or streak away to kill them in delayed 1-1 burst combinations when they run after you…

conclusion you play pvp on a casual base and are not very experienced in how several classes (nb, sorc, templar) work and play out. so i wouldn‘t take your opinion on cloak serious or as an important one…

That's not using the skill offensively. That's still using it defensively and then going on offense. Major difference. Cloak literally makes your next damage skill crit. Good night blades use cloak to lineup that crit and then also to escape. Ward doesn't buff anything offensively.

And of course, ward is used with other skills. You know what, so is cloak. Cloak and shade is easily the best defensive combo in the game.

As for spamming ward, plenty of defensive skills are spammed under pressure, even cloak. Don't see how that discredits anything.

The whole point of my comparison was to compare two defensive skills that are the primary defenses in two toolkits. Ward is the primary defense tool for a sorc and it is vastly inferior to cloak.

And no, as much as NB mains want to tout that cloak is so easy to break, it isn't. Fighting a good night lade using cloak is pretty much impossible without like 5 people spamming reveals. Sure, you can crush a bad NB, just as easily as you can crush a bad player on any class. But that isn't really relevant.

And also, what is the point of personal attacks? I've got plenty of PVP experience, but that isn't even really relevant. And there really is no need to end a counterpoint by personally attacking me.

in one sentence you say the defence hardened ward gives and the possibility it gives to go offensive without caring about health for a short while is not enabling offensive and then you say the 100% crit chance after cloak is (how is it not going offensive after defence?) where is the difference?

sure cloak and shade is nice mobility and gives a lot of evading possibilities (if you are not in an open field, where it is useless). but shadow image is one skill slot and does not really much else than let you escape…

it wasn‘t a personal attack. if somebody says spamming hardened ward and spamming cloak is comparable and spamming hw is even useful, then i and every decent player know, that you don‘t know how to play sorc. same goes for the „jabbing into air with nb being 20m away“. it shows you have also not much experience with templars… and that you don‘t know much about nbs shows itself by asking for nerfs instead of buffs.

if nbs need anything, it is a big buff. we play in a heal / tank / mitigation meta with magdks and magplars being on top by a big margin. nbs can‘t burst down 90% of the decent players, the rest are nbs too or asleep. if i see a nb i‘m glad, bc most times it is a free kill. if i see a magdk or magplar, i just go away. i can‘t burst them, they have more sustain and more healing. also they can kill me with 1 combo.

that‘s the thing you forget. nbs use cloak to not go much into tankiness and sustain, so we can burst. in the meta we have now you can‘t really burst down decent players, so we are:

1. squishy as ***: if you reveal a nb and cc it, you should be able to kill it in the next 1-2 seconds. especially if you are not alone.
2. we have not much sustain, so we can maybe try 1-3 burst attempts before we try run away with our tail between our legs…
3. we can kill other squishies or noobs, who don‘t evade or block our telegraphed and loud attacks and even then a magdk, magcro or magplar survives.
4. we need to spam cloak to escape, bc guards break it constantly and aoes are pulling us out together with curse and purifying light.
5. mage light, camo hunter and flare disable cloak for a while. it‘s more than enough time to cc us and kill us.
6. detection pots are not affecting the use of cloak and in hectic fights we then sometimes spam cloak (see point 4) just to realize after we wasted quite some magicka, that smb popped a detection pot…
7. our only viable playstyle is to hunt noobs and make fair fights (f.e. a 2 vs 2) unfair by bursting a target already at 50% health.
8. if we use cloak to run away, isn‘t that a loss for us and a win for you? i don‘t understand, why it is so bad that after we couldn‘t achieve anything or kill one noob, we can run in fear?

Dracane

TheEndBringer wrote: »

If you don't play NB on the reg you should understand everything you think cloak can do is not based in reality.

It costs me upwards of 3 to 4 hits of shadowy to just get passed guards in a keep. That's 10 to 13k of mag. Every other class can defend against the guards. They will kill me. Literally just walking through the gate house breaks stealth. From there is a minefield of guards with perma sight.

If I get hit with haunting curse I have to spend 15k mag to avoid getting instant killed by the tick. Every other class can out heal it.

Every player had easy access to 3 skills, all of which give you major buffs, plus detect pots. On top of that several classes have skills that are perfect for yanking NBs out. Templars, DKs and sorcs, specifically.

Don't blame NBs for Caluurions. I'd happily go back to update 29 to run heart and stygian again. Blame ZOS. Pure damage and pen is not enough to fight in this proc meta.

Our biggest attacks are telegraphed. Incap/Harvest warns you to roll dodge. Caluurions gives you one second to react, which is plenty of time to break free and roll or block.

They also added multiple CP geared specifically to counter NBs and are even adding a mythic on top of it all that will further give you protection.

Of all the things to complain about right now, this is still it? We have DKs, templars and necros running wild with little counter play. They have all the heals, all to mitigation and just as much damage as a NB, and none of it is changing. No other class has so much built in counter play.

Not to mention the fact that one or two good DKs can wipe a group. I'm not wiping groups by myself on gank blade. If I see a 12 man the best I can do is pick off the weakest like a wolf and slow them down enough that reinforcements arrive. Don't blame the NB if your group members run out one at a time to stop me.

NBs are the uboats of pvp. We attack from the depths then sink back below before getting caught. If you can't or refuse to do the most basic work to negate a NB then complaining about it on the forum is unfair to the small number of players who put the work in at being good at this one class, especially when they are not performing at the same level as the big three.

I am sorry. I didn't mean to blame the player. I know it's Zenimax and people will always use the most powerful thing given to them.

What you say regarding DKs and zergs, I feel the same. I can also only try to pick off the the weakest link and maybe kite them for some more. That's just how Sorc and NB are designed I guess. I just don't understand what you mean with NB being telegraphed. You strike from stealth, there is no way to avoid Incap and Caluurion. Even if you break free almost instantly, these things will hit you. (remember, the average human has a reaction time of up to 0.3 seconds. Two of my overload light attacks with crystal weapons + force shock deliver damage over 0.4s from when damage is first received and most plebs can't deal with that either)

Caluurion is so desynced, just like Nightblade ganks generally are, that everything just hits in most cases. Not sure how you play yours, but it sounds like a personal issue when your Caluurion misses and guards destroy you so.