Cloak Change

Dracane

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

The past several years have seen NB's entire kit gutted for the sake of preserving the easily spammable invisibility, which is what keeps the complaints coming no matter how weak the rest of their kit gets. It is unfun for individual opponents who must warp their builds in order to fight against NB cloak (only for them to disappear anyway), and it is unfun for the NB when focused by multiple enemies who successively hard-counter their invisibility.

Nerf cloak, buff everything else NB does. The whole class has been reduced to 1 playstyle revolving around 1 busted ability and 1 busted proc set. Also: delete the idiotic artificial lag (cast times) attached to their ults.

Now we finally come together. This is the issue for both sides and this is why an adjustment of cloak would bring benefits for both in the long run. Well said.

DaggersKid

Dracane wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

If you don't play NB on the reg you should understand everything you think cloak can do is not based in reality.

It costs me upwards of 3 to 4 hits of shadowy to just get passed guards in a keep. That's 10 to 13k of mag. Every other class can defend against the guards. They will kill me. Literally just walking through the gate house breaks stealth. From there is a minefield of guards with perma sight.

If I get hit with haunting curse I have to spend 15k mag to avoid getting instant killed by the tick. Every other class can out heal it.

Every player had easy access to 3 skills, all of which give you major buffs, plus detect pots. On top of that several classes have skills that are perfect for yanking NBs out. Templars, DKs and sorcs, specifically.

Don't blame NBs for Caluurions. I'd happily go back to update 29 to run heart and stygian again. Blame ZOS. Pure damage and pen is not enough to fight in this proc meta.

Our biggest attacks are telegraphed. Incap/Harvest warns you to roll dodge. Caluurions gives you one second to react, which is plenty of time to break free and roll or block.

They also added multiple CP geared specifically to counter NBs and are even adding a mythic on top of it all that will further give you protection.

Of all the things to complain about right now, this is still it? We have DKs, templars and necros running wild with little counter play. They have all the heals, all to mitigation and just as much damage as a NB, and none of it is changing. No other class has so much built in counter play.

Not to mention the fact that one or two good DKs can wipe a group. I'm not wiping groups by myself on gank blade. If I see a 12 man the best I can do is pick off the weakest like a wolf and slow them down enough that reinforcements arrive. Don't blame the NB if your group members run out one at a time to stop me.

NBs are the uboats of pvp. We attack from the depths then sink back below before getting caught. If you can't or refuse to do the most basic work to negate a NB then complaining about it on the forum is unfair to the small number of players who put the work in at being good at this one class, especially when they are not performing at the same level as the big three.

I am sorry. I didn't mean to blame the player. I know it's Zenimax and people will always use the most powerful thing given to them.

What you say regarding DKs and zergs, I feel the same. I can also only try to pick off the the weakest link and maybe kite them for some more. That's just how Sorc and NB are designed I guess. I just don't understand what you mean with NB being telegraphed. You strike from stealth, there is no way to avoid Incap and Caluurion. Even if you break free almost instantly, these things will hit you. (remember, the average human has a reaction time of up to 0.3 seconds. Two of my overload light attacks with crystal weapons + force shock deliver damage over 0.4s from when damage is first received and most plebs can't deal with that either)

Caluurion is so desynced, just like Nightblade ganks generally are, that everything just hits in most cases. Not sure how you play yours, but it sounds like a personal issue when your Caluurion misses and guards destroy you so.

caluurion takes 1 sec to hit. this is more than enough time to block, which will also prevent a stun from surprise attack or halfing incap dmg. then you cc the nb and kill it or let it run away. it is telegraphed, because if you see a nb cloaking around you, you are ready for holding block or dodge. also incap has a cast time and a loud sound, which makes it easy to evade or block it. in proc i mostly use dawnbreaker anyway, bc incap is so telegraphed and often doesn‘t work as a vampire (greens out with over 125 ult).

mostly glass cannons die to burst (other nbs or light armour sorcs). other classes shouldn‘t die in a 1-1 situation against a nb ever, even if only semi-prepared (you should have your buffs up always).

without caluurion nbs can‘t burst ***. so yeah i would be happy with nerfed caluurion and buffed nb skills. we need a delayed burst possibility without caluurion (to stack dmg in one gdc) and we need generally more dmg / penetration or less defence / health / mitigation on other classes.

so please buff nb. it is gutted atm and only either noob snipers or people that played it since years still play it in pvp… everyone and his mother changed to magdk…

Merforum

Dracane wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

The past several years have seen NB's entire kit gutted for the sake of preserving the easily spammable invisibility, which is what keeps the complaints coming no matter how weak the rest of their kit gets. It is unfun for individual opponents who must warp their builds in order to fight against NB cloak (only for them to disappear anyway), and it is unfun for the NB when focused by multiple enemies who successively hard-counter their invisibility.

Nerf cloak, buff everything else NB does. The whole class has been reduced to 1 playstyle revolving around 1 busted ability and 1 busted proc set. Also: delete the idiotic artificial lag (cast times) attached to their ults.

Now we finally come together. This is the issue for both sides and this is why an adjustment of cloak would bring benefits for both in the long run. Well said.

I think ZOS knows that they allowed inviso to make ganking off the charts. I don't know if anyone can fathom the amount of PVP players THEY LOST over the years because they allowed this insanity. I hated PVP with a passion for 4 years, now it is becoming my favorite thing. I lost 4 years of fun because my initial impressions were so jarringly toxic and unnecessary.

They have this new item to address the issue. Sea-Serpent's Coil (1 item) While at full Health, you gain 40% damage reduction. After taking damage while at full Health in combat, you gain Serpent's Rebuke for 10 seconds, snaring yourself by 40% and gaining Major Berserk and Major Courage, increasing your damage done by 10% and Weapon and Spell Damage by 430. The damage reduction does not apply while Serpent's Rebuke is active.

This might limit ganking potential but not really address the other issues of being able to cloak over and over and get crit hits on demand. Not only that, but how TEAM negative NB is. In BGs every other class cringes when they are teamed with a NB for good reason they KNOW that NB will be totally selfish. Looking to steal kills, not do objectives and what do you think happens when you use inviso over and over, the other teams FOCUS on the non-NB they can SEE. HELLO. I sometimes feel like saying, I'm NB using dark cloak, team player, non-cheeser here.

Anyway, the answer is clear. At a minimum make inviso have 1 sec longer cooldown than the skill (3 sec skill, 4 sec CD). Then tweak a few of the other skills to be more useful in PVP. In PVE NB is very strong for damage and great tank, healer meh, so I don't understand the people who keep saying NB is the weakest class (actually we know why and no one's buying it).

DrSlaughtr

Zavijah_Arventi wrote: »

Completely agreed with the posts about removing stealth as a significant tool from NB's off the table. And I say this as a NB who unfortunately is far too invested with questing, motifs, crafting and alliance rank that I am only left with resentment at being put in into this F'ing box of stealth or die.

Give stealth a 10 second cooldown or something, and instead give us spell and physical resist as a passive, not tied to spamming surprise attack.

Give us a Major Spell Damage/Weapon Damage buff that isn't attached to a melee range aoe, or mages guild dot. Attach it to the otherwise commonly used Siphon ability or Gim Focus. End result being something desirable like Lotus Flower, Igneous Weapons, or Crit Surge.

Swallow Soul animation/delay needs to be reduced. Great, it has range. Or you could be DK and have Burning Embers which heals on first hit, also heals over time AND is a damage over time. Burning Embers has previously even been used as a their spammable. Couple with their synergies around health regen, it shouldn't be hard to keep a NB in comparison to have a proportionate dot and hot - that doesn't feel off with flow to weave, or make you fume in rage at all your casts being dodged.

Snipe also is just far, far too long. You wanna kill with now on NB? LA weave and poison injection. yawn.

Standardise the Execute ranges on all classes or bring them in line with weapons where they scale with reduced target health.

If Nightblades at launch were supposed to be the Rogue archetypes (as the artwork otherwise suggests) we are now in the position other classes can do a better job of it, and are more tanky. Which is what I wanted, not to puss around in stealth like a cheeky agitator.

It's hard to get people on board with improving NB's when they hate coming across them and delight in their misfortune.

And as above. [snip] with a heal with a health cost, and no other benefit. Even a Necro gets a boost to healing based on their incurred Defile.
As a Sorc, just slot a pet as a passive dps and instant cast heal? Hell, multi target? Breath of Life or Enchanted Growth.

Actually, this thread is just making me so angry the more I think about it I'm not sure I even want to continue playing.

[edited for profanity bypass]

Again, you can't add a cooldown without significantly altering other aspects of the game. Guards will take to stop breaking stealth. Reveal skills will need to be attended if not having the reveal removed entirely. These would have cause much bigger problems than to just have players use the many tools provided to them to kill nightblades.

"And I say this as a NB who unfortunately is far too invested with questing, motifs, crafting and alliance rank that I am only left with resentment at being put in into this F'ing box of stealth or die."

NB is great for all those things as is. If you want to play a brawler, you have 5 other classes to do that right now.

"... instead give us spell and physical resist as a passive, not tied to spamming surprise attack."

You already get major resolve passively.

Every one of your suggestions would make NB a poor copy of all the other brawler builds. As someone pointed out above, this goes against ZOS's own description of the class and the class identity they created. Just play a necro or dk and brawl your heart out.

DrSlaughtr

Merforum wrote: »

I think ZOS knows that they allowed inviso to make ganking off the charts. I don't know if anyone can fathom the amount of PVP players THEY LOST over the years because they allowed this insanity. I hated PVP with a passion for 4 years, now it is becoming my favorite thing. I lost 4 years of fun because my initial impressions were so jarringly toxic and unnecessary.it).

The class is built to be a sneak rogue. From the beginning. By your own admission you spent 4 years not pvping because you feared one class rather than learn how to defend against them. Now it's your favorite thing? I'll take a wild guess that your biggest issue was bombers. Now you have DC necro bombers which can bomb multiple times a minute and competely own a fight.

This idea that massive amounts of players have quit the game or pvp over a direct damage gank that dies the moment you break their only defense is unfounded.

Merforum wrote: »

This might limit ganking potential but not really address the other issues of being able to cloak over and over and get crit hits on demand. Not only that, but how TEAM negative NB is. In BGs every other class cringes when they are teamed with a NB for good reason they KNOW that NB will be totally selfish. Looking to steal kills, not do objectives and what do you think happens when you use inviso over and over, the other teams FOCUS on the non-NB they can SEE. HELLO. I sometimes feel like saying, I'm NB using dark cloak, team player, non-cheeser here.it).

1. You can't crit "on demand." You get one crit that sometimes goes off while invisible. If it fails, which it often does, you're toast. Even then, it's not like you can just keep popping shadowy then attack over and over. It doesn't work that way. That's inefficient at best and a death sentence at worst. The moment you run out of any resource on a NB you're done. And unlike other classes we don't get big regeneration. Buffed my mag Regen is like 900 and my Stam is a little over 1000.

2. Who cares if it's team oriented? First BGs is a small sample size of pvp, but either way it doesn't matter. No matter what mode, players are going to sometimes be very team minded and sometimes not. Literally complaining about having kills "stolen" is not a reason to gut a class.

Merforum wrote: »

Anyway, the answer is clear. At a minimum make inviso have 1 sec longer cooldown than the skill (3 sec skill, 4 sec CD). Then tweak a few of the other skills to be more useful in PVP. In PVE NB is very strong for damage and great tank, healer meh, so I don't understand the people who keep saying NB is the weakest class (actually we know why and no one's buying it).

It's not clear because the skill doesn't work the way you seem to think it works. I've explained this numerous times. I'll give yet another example.

A guard from 50 meters away yanks me from stealth, forcing me to hit shadowy disguise. Unfortunately the guard threw a fireball at me before I did so. That fireball still hits me and breaks my invisible. Under your suggestion I'm now revealed for 3 to 4 seconds, which means I'm dead.

Here's another. I'm running along a wall, occasionally hitting SD to be safe. Unknowingly I run through an enemy templar that was crouched. I now can't hit SD and the templar will topple charge and jab me to death before the cooldown is up.

You can't remove SD and that's what a cooldown would do. Same for ramping cost. You'd have to turn the class into a Necro rip off and competely ruin it's identity in the process. Even still, the moment NBs would remotely do well you'd just get more posts about it.

People who don't run nightblades and refuse to defend against them are not who should decide changes to the class. They are direct damage burst builds and no NB is going to single handedly wipe full groups and ruin your push. Work together. Defend. Kill the NB. It's not hard.

Merforum

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

I think ZOS knows that they allowed inviso to make ganking off the charts. I don't know if anyone can fathom the amount of PVP players THEY LOST over the years because they allowed this insanity. I hated PVP with a passion for 4 years, now it is becoming my favorite thing. I lost 4 years of fun because my initial impressions were so jarringly toxic and unnecessary.it).

The class is built to be a sneak rogue. From the beginning. By your own admission you spent 4 years not pvping because you feared one class rather than learn how to defend against them. Now it's your favorite thing? I'll take a wild guess that your biggest issue was bombers. Now you have DC necro bombers which can bomb multiple times a minute and competely own a fight.

This idea that massive amounts of players have quit the game or pvp over a direct damage gank that dies the moment you break their only defense is unfounded.

Merforum wrote: »

This might limit ganking potential but not really address the other issues of being able to cloak over and over and get crit hits on demand. Not only that, but how TEAM negative NB is. In BGs every other class cringes when they are teamed with a NB for good reason they KNOW that NB will be totally selfish. Looking to steal kills, not do objectives and what do you think happens when you use inviso over and over, the other teams FOCUS on the non-NB they can SEE. HELLO. I sometimes feel like saying, I'm NB using dark cloak, team player, non-cheeser here.it).

1. You can't crit "on demand." You get one crit that sometimes goes off while invisible. If it fails, which it often does, you're toast. Even then, it's not like you can just keep popping shadowy then attack over and over. It doesn't work that way. That's inefficient at best and a death sentence at worst. The moment you run out of any resource on a NB you're done. And unlike other classes we don't get big regeneration. Buffed my mag Regen is like 900 and my Stam is a little over 1000.

2. Who cares if it's team oriented? First BGs is a small sample size of pvp, but either way it doesn't matter. No matter what mode, players are going to sometimes be very team minded and sometimes not. Literally complaining about having kills "stolen" is not a reason to gut a class.

Merforum wrote: »

Anyway, the answer is clear. At a minimum make inviso have 1 sec longer cooldown than the skill (3 sec skill, 4 sec CD). Then tweak a few of the other skills to be more useful in PVP. In PVE NB is very strong for damage and great tank, healer meh, so I don't understand the people who keep saying NB is the weakest class (actually we know why and no one's buying it).

It's not clear because the skill doesn't work the way you seem to think it works. I've explained this numerous times. I'll give yet another example.

A guard from 50 meters away yanks me from stealth, forcing me to hit shadowy disguise. Unfortunately the guard threw a fireball at me before I did so. That fireball still hits me and breaks my invisible. Under your suggestion I'm now revealed for 3 to 4 seconds, which means I'm dead.

Here's another. I'm running along a wall, occasionally hitting SD to be safe. Unknowingly I run through an enemy templar that was crouched. I now can't hit SD and the templar will topple charge and jab me to death before the cooldown is up.

You can't remove SD and that's what a cooldown would do. Same for ramping cost. You'd have to turn the class into a Necro rip off and competely ruin it's identity in the process. Even still, the moment NBs would remotely do well you'd just get more posts about it.

People who don't run nightblades and refuse to defend against them are not who should decide changes to the class. They are direct damage burst builds and no NB is going to single handedly wipe full groups and ruin your push. Work together. Defend. Kill the NB. It's not hard.

Even diehard defenders of inviso are finally realizing that as OP a crutch as inviso is, it is not worth the class getting gutted over and over. I guess there always has to be one person like the japanese soldiers on the islands who didn't know WW2 was over.

Wolfpaw

Merforum wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

What they need to do is change the effect of Shadow Cloak and Shadowy Disguise and make it more like Dark Cloak

Shadow Cloak: Reduces the casters detection radius by 10 meters

Shadowy Disguise: Reduces the casters detection radius by 10 meters and heals the caster for XXXX health per second

Dark Cloak: Applies minor protection and heals the Caster for XXXX health per second (Unchanged)

So basically you would choose between minor protection or a 10 meter detection reduction, having a detection radius reduction instead of outright invisibility would mean you could not auto-stealth in the middle of combat, for combat you would have the heal effect per second to make up for it, a lot of NBs fail to realize how good the heal of Dark Cloak is because they all use invisibility instead and have cornered themselves into believing an NB can only fight from stealth.

This is a very good compromise since it allows some better sneaking capabilities while adding healing that is needed, also I would think it also procs Armor buff still. Not bad.

Now lets fix Streak with by either only allowing stun at beginning or end of stream not stun everyone in the full range. And/or reduce range to 7m. And/or add 5 sec CD.

Isn't it funny that the most broken ability in any game for PVP in history probably INVISO is always defended in terms of a terrible or beginner NB being easily detected by an experienced PVPer. It is NOT always beginner NB Vs. good PVPer. There are 3 PHASES

1. beginner NB using inviso can 1 shot and/or get away from ANY beginner PVPer
2. beginner NB will get detected and probably killed by experienced PVPer
3. Experienced NB using inviso AGAIN can 1 shot and/or get away from ANY PVPer, by this point it is even worse for instance a really good NB can disappear ON DEMAND in the middle of a fight, then get AUTO CRIT on opponent over and over

So in the lifespan of a NB, they are OP, then meh, then OP AGAIN. And so OP in some cases as to make the game boring, mostly because inviso is too good in PVP. If inviso was changed to be just really buffed up stealth or make is so 'while in combat' or even 'while opponent facing you' it is unusable. Similar to how vampire hyphosis affects only those 'facing you', this would be the opposite if someone if facing you, fighting you, inviso should be disabled. Essentially you'd have to run behind someone THEN use it, instead of use it anytime to avoid getting hit while running behind opponent to get huge damage.

BTW this has been a broken skill and complained about since day one and people began abusing it in PVP, biggest change I know of was reducing form 7-8 sec to 3 sec. Still too OP for PVP.

If you're getting one shot in PvP by a nb it's A l2p issue: keeping buffs/hots up, aware of your surroundings, many forms of detect, etc...

Anyone can play a nb well, but the skill gap to a great nb player is huge, and the majority of nb's are not there.

Dracane

DaggersKid wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

If you don't play NB on the reg you should understand everything you think cloak can do is not based in reality.

It costs me upwards of 3 to 4 hits of shadowy to just get passed guards in a keep. That's 10 to 13k of mag. Every other class can defend against the guards. They will kill me. Literally just walking through the gate house breaks stealth. From there is a minefield of guards with perma sight.

If I get hit with haunting curse I have to spend 15k mag to avoid getting instant killed by the tick. Every other class can out heal it.

Every player had easy access to 3 skills, all of which give you major buffs, plus detect pots. On top of that several classes have skills that are perfect for yanking NBs out. Templars, DKs and sorcs, specifically.

Don't blame NBs for Caluurions. I'd happily go back to update 29 to run heart and stygian again. Blame ZOS. Pure damage and pen is not enough to fight in this proc meta.

Our biggest attacks are telegraphed. Incap/Harvest warns you to roll dodge. Caluurions gives you one second to react, which is plenty of time to break free and roll or block.

They also added multiple CP geared specifically to counter NBs and are even adding a mythic on top of it all that will further give you protection.

Of all the things to complain about right now, this is still it? We have DKs, templars and necros running wild with little counter play. They have all the heals, all to mitigation and just as much damage as a NB, and none of it is changing. No other class has so much built in counter play.

Not to mention the fact that one or two good DKs can wipe a group. I'm not wiping groups by myself on gank blade. If I see a 12 man the best I can do is pick off the weakest like a wolf and slow them down enough that reinforcements arrive. Don't blame the NB if your group members run out one at a time to stop me.

NBs are the uboats of pvp. We attack from the depths then sink back below before getting caught. If you can't or refuse to do the most basic work to negate a NB then complaining about it on the forum is unfair to the small number of players who put the work in at being good at this one class, especially when they are not performing at the same level as the big three.

I am sorry. I didn't mean to blame the player. I know it's Zenimax and people will always use the most powerful thing given to them.

What you say regarding DKs and zergs, I feel the same. I can also only try to pick off the the weakest link and maybe kite them for some more. That's just how Sorc and NB are designed I guess. I just don't understand what you mean with NB being telegraphed. You strike from stealth, there is no way to avoid Incap and Caluurion. Even if you break free almost instantly, these things will hit you. (remember, the average human has a reaction time of up to 0.3 seconds. Two of my overload light attacks with crystal weapons + force shock deliver damage over 0.4s from when damage is first received and most plebs can't deal with that either)

Caluurion is so desynced, just like Nightblade ganks generally are, that everything just hits in most cases. Not sure how you play yours, but it sounds like a personal issue when your Caluurion misses and guards destroy you so.

caluurion takes 1 sec to hit. this is more than enough time to block, which will also prevent a stun from surprise attack or halfing incap dmg. then you cc the nb and kill it or let it run away. it is telegraphed, because if you see a nb cloaking around you, you are ready for holding block or dodge. also incap has a cast time and a loud sound, which makes it easy to evade or block it. in proc i mostly use dawnbreaker anyway, bc incap is so telegraphed and often doesn‘t work as a vampire (greens out with over 125 ult).

mostly glass cannons die to burst (other nbs or light armour sorcs). other classes shouldn‘t die in a 1-1 situation against a nb ever, even if only semi-prepared (you should have your buffs up always).

without caluurion nbs can‘t burst ***. so yeah i would be happy with nerfed caluurion and buffed nb skills. we need a delayed burst possibility without caluurion (to stack dmg in one gdc) and we need generally more dmg / penetration or less defence / health / mitigation on other classes.

so please buff nb. it is gutted atm and only either noob snipers or people that played it since years still play it in pvp… everyone and his mother changed to magdk…

I don't know what x-ray eyes you have that you see nightblades cloaking around you all the time. The idea of it all is that you can not see them. You can be paranoid, sure, and that's it.

MidniteOwl1913

jaws343 wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

@TheEndBringer wdym last changes to cloak is definitely a buff. They made sure no DoT pulls out of cloak, even ground ones. If you can argue that it was just "fix", they also made it so your dots don't pull out of cloak.

It was a bug fix by their own admission. It was always meant to do that. Why? I'll tell you (even though I already pointed this out).

I do not have a proper burst heal on NB. Every other class has at least one (and some have more than one) great burst heal. The only burst heal in siphoning is just as likely to accidently hit another player than me AND it eats health in return. Swallow soul is a hot and requires you to target an enemy. Sap essence is a baby burst but again, is primarily an attack.

So what is my defense against haunting curse that can do 8 to 10k ticks on me? Shadowy disguise. That will require me to hit SD AT LEAST 4 times at about 15k mag to not get destroyed by one tick of that?

So are we going to pretend like that's some crazy advantages? Any other class can either outright ignored it or heal through it with one HOT.

Even with shadowy disguise I have to run invisible pots because the skill is so expensive and it's impossible to get through a keep past guards without burning every last ounce of mag.

I tell you what. You want to put a CD on shadowy? Here's what you'll have to do.

Increase is duration
Decrease the cost.
Remove the stealth breaking from guards.
Give NBs a proper heal like honor the dead or coagulating.

Do all that and slap a cooldown on it. Because if you don't do all those things you just destroyed the class for both PVP and PvE.

That's all pointless though because EVERYONE can already force a cooldown with skills and pots. Just because some players are not good at using those tactics (or refuse to) doesn't mean ZOS should gut the class until it bleeds out faster than a 22k glass cannon defenseless on siege.

There are basic tactics everyone could just to negate a ganker.

1. Everyone stay on ram.

2.. Never send one dude to rez a body.

3. If you are sieging alone, keep flare under your feet.

If you are running down a NB, use the busy system. One of you hit mage light or camo hunter every 3 seconds while the other does the damage.

You do those and most NBs are dead. If you refuse to do those things then that's not the NB's fault.

If you want to be mad at something, be mad at the builds which allow one person to wipe out an entire 12 man group with two skills.

I just had to laugh at the "use magelight every 3 seconds" bit.

Sure, I'll just spend 5K mag every 3 seconds just to find another player, with a buddy who is doing the damage. Because that is reasonable somehow. If it takes 5K mag + another player to even find a player using cloak, cloak is a problem.

Hmm, imagine having to use a bunch of magicka to keep an ability up in order for it to be even remotely usable... It's not like Nightblades ever have to ever do that ever.

This is the problem - nobody has empathy for other classes. Okay, someone mains a single class. So what? They should still be able to sympathize with other classes. They can still make other classes and use them to, in the very least, understand them. I main a Nightblade, but I understand that other classes need their own unique things to make them fun to play and effective in the game. I main a Nightblade, but I still really enjoy switching over to my Warden and Necromancer (and the rest of my 18 characters).

It's not that people are required to play all the classes, but they owe it to themselves to at least try a class before complaining about it. That way they won't make ignorant comments that show blatant hypocrisy. I mean, aside from that fact that the magicka investment required for cloak was even mentioned in the quoted post, and that it isn't required to cast magelight every 3 seconds to stop a cloaking Nightblade, and that casting magelight is far from the only counter to cloak.

So try to play the gankblade you complain about. You might learn it's not as OP as you think. A little empathy goes a long way.

I play every class. And have the most PVP playtime on my nightblades. My experience with nightblade and other classes doesn't blind me to the fact that cloak is way overtuned and incredibly one-sided as both an offensive and defensive tool with little drawback, and the added requirement that classes have to use valuable bar/potion slots to directly counter this one skill.

But if cloak is the only viable defensive means for a nightblade and should be respected as such, let's compare the raw power that cloak has compared to another defensive tool in the sorcerer toolkit: Hardened Ward.

Cloak:
- Invisibility makes you untargetable
- Untargettable and invisible by every player in the area
- Can hit it once, and be safe for 3 seconds if not revealed
- Requires a specific expensive skills or potion slotted by opponents to effectively counter
- Regular skills that may remove from stealth require extreme luck to do so, including somehow perfectly predicting movements of a player while invisible. (Great, I can spam jabs, expensively, in circles and eat my mag/stam, and hit absolutely nothing while the NB is 20 meters away preparing another burst)
- Provides and automatic crit opportunity offensively
- Allows for unpredictable repositioning, offensively and defensively
- There are a lot more situational advantages to cloak as well here, like being able to be directly on top of other players without them knowing unless they are spamming skills they are forced to slot.

Hardened Ward:
- Still targetable, including crittable, and can be entirely consumed in one attack + light attack
- Every offensive skill in the game works to eat away at shields
- Doesn't scale to the number of players attacking
- Very expensive, and under heavy pressure require spamming often.
- Zero offensive benefits
- Using shield still means you are entirely targettable by enemies

And that is just Hardened ward, no other class has even remotely a defensive skill that is anywhere as good as cloak defensively or offensively. The closest to raw power may be Corrosive Armor or Necro transform, but those are expensive ultimates. And even then, cloak is better than those defensively.

IMO, the easiest fix to cloak would be to make it to where all player based AOE damage breaks it, DOT or direct damage. But, also, increase the cloak time to 5 seconds, but give it a 6 second cooldown. So you cannot cast earlier to refresh cloak and you will always have 1 second of visibility.

Isn't Hardened Ward a sorc ability?
https://eso-skillbook.com/skill/hardened-ward

Amottica

Mr_Stach wrote: »

I really don't struggle too hard against NBs, if they are able to burst me down out of stealth, it's typically on me. There's a lot of counters. It's not the same as getting Nuked by a DK or constant pressure from a Templar.

What is funny is I have been hit by gankers a number of times like anyone who has spent time in Cyrodiil. They rarely kill me even though I do not run a tanky build. Typically are NBs that immediately cloak and hide. I often slot something to pull them out of sneak and go hunting me some NB.

It is very satisfying to turn the tables by pulling them out of sneak. It is not hard as those that rely on sneak do not seem that experienced while the more skilled NBs are more than a one-button player. Just my take on things.

divnyi

TheEndBringer wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

I do not have a proper burst heal on NB. Every other class has at least one (and some have more than one) great burst heal. The only burst heal in siphoning is just as likely to accidently hit another player than me AND it eats health in return.

It heals you or someone in front of you. Target it in the wall and that's it, the heal is all yours.

So many wild exaggerations flying in this thread lmao. Cloak equals Corrosive Armor. Cloak wasn't buffed.
Can you people discuss things instead of moan?

Yes so let's spin around on the battlefield surrounded by enemies and allies to find some scrap of empty dirt to point at so I can use this bad heal that also eats health back with a dot.

You mean templar doesn't have decent burst heal too? Cool.

DrSlaughtr

divnyi wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

I do not have a proper burst heal on NB. Every other class has at least one (and some have more than one) great burst heal. The only burst heal in siphoning is just as likely to accidently hit another player than me AND it eats health in return.

It heals you or someone in front of you. Target it in the wall and that's it, the heal is all yours.

So many wild exaggerations flying in this thread lmao. Cloak equals Corrosive Armor. Cloak wasn't buffed.
Can you people discuss things instead of moan?

Yes so let's spin around on the battlefield surrounded by enemies and allies to find some scrap of empty dirt to point at so I can use this bad heal that also eats health back with a dot.

You mean templar doesn't have decent burst heal too? Cool.

Are you suggesting templar doesn't have a decent burst heal? 🤔

DrSlaughtr

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

@TheEndBringer wdym last changes to cloak is definitely a buff. They made sure no DoT pulls out of cloak, even ground ones. If you can argue that it was just "fix", they also made it so your dots don't pull out of cloak.

It was a bug fix by their own admission. It was always meant to do that. Why? I'll tell you (even though I already pointed this out).

I do not have a proper burst heal on NB. Every other class has at least one (and some have more than one) great burst heal. The only burst heal in siphoning is just as likely to accidently hit another player than me AND it eats health in return. Swallow soul is a hot and requires you to target an enemy. Sap essence is a baby burst but again, is primarily an attack.

So what is my defense against haunting curse that can do 8 to 10k ticks on me? Shadowy disguise. That will require me to hit SD AT LEAST 4 times at about 15k mag to not get destroyed by one tick of that?

So are we going to pretend like that's some crazy advantages? Any other class can either outright ignored it or heal through it with one HOT.

Even with shadowy disguise I have to run invisible pots because the skill is so expensive and it's impossible to get through a keep past guards without burning every last ounce of mag.

I tell you what. You want to put a CD on shadowy? Here's what you'll have to do.

Increase is duration
Decrease the cost.
Remove the stealth breaking from guards.
Give NBs a proper heal like honor the dead or coagulating.

Do all that and slap a cooldown on it. Because if you don't do all those things you just destroyed the class for both PVP and PvE.

That's all pointless though because EVERYONE can already force a cooldown with skills and pots. Just because some players are not good at using those tactics (or refuse to) doesn't mean ZOS should gut the class until it bleeds out faster than a 22k glass cannon defenseless on siege.

There are basic tactics everyone could just to negate a ganker.

1. Everyone stay on ram.

2.. Never send one dude to rez a body.

3. If you are sieging alone, keep flare under your feet.

If you are running down a NB, use the busy system. One of you hit mage light or camo hunter every 3 seconds while the other does the damage.

You do those and most NBs are dead. If you refuse to do those things then that's not the NB's fault.

If you want to be mad at something, be mad at the builds which allow one person to wipe out an entire 12 man group with two skills.

I just had to laugh at the "use magelight every 3 seconds" bit.

Sure, I'll just spend 5K mag every 3 seconds just to find another player, with a buddy who is doing the damage. Because that is reasonable somehow. If it takes 5K mag + another player to even find a player using cloak, cloak is a problem.

Hmm, imagine having to use a bunch of magicka to keep an ability up in order for it to be even remotely usable... It's not like Nightblades ever have to ever do that ever.

This is the problem - nobody has empathy for other classes. Okay, someone mains a single class. So what? They should still be able to sympathize with other classes. They can still make other classes and use them to, in the very least, understand them. I main a Nightblade, but I understand that other classes need their own unique things to make them fun to play and effective in the game. I main a Nightblade, but I still really enjoy switching over to my Warden and Necromancer (and the rest of my 18 characters).

It's not that people are required to play all the classes, but they owe it to themselves to at least try a class before complaining about it. That way they won't make ignorant comments that show blatant hypocrisy. I mean, aside from that fact that the magicka investment required for cloak was even mentioned in the quoted post, and that it isn't required to cast magelight every 3 seconds to stop a cloaking Nightblade, and that casting magelight is far from the only counter to cloak.

So try to play the gankblade you complain about. You might learn it's not as OP as you think. A little empathy goes a long way.

I play every class. And have the most PVP playtime on my nightblades. My experience with nightblade and other classes doesn't blind me to the fact that cloak is way overtuned and incredibly one-sided as both an offensive and defensive tool with little drawback, and the added requirement that classes have to use valuable bar/potion slots to directly counter this one skill.

But if cloak is the only viable defensive means for a nightblade and should be respected as such, let's compare the raw power that cloak has compared to another defensive tool in the sorcerer toolkit: Hardened Ward.

Cloak:
- Invisibility makes you untargetable
- Untargettable and invisible by every player in the area
- Can hit it once, and be safe for 3 seconds if not revealed
- Requires a specific expensive skills or potion slotted by opponents to effectively counter
- Regular skills that may remove from stealth require extreme luck to do so, including somehow perfectly predicting movements of a player while invisible. (Great, I can spam jabs, expensively, in circles and eat my mag/stam, and hit absolutely nothing while the NB is 20 meters away preparing another burst)
- Provides and automatic crit opportunity offensively
- Allows for unpredictable repositioning, offensively and defensively
- There are a lot more situational advantages to cloak as well here, like being able to be directly on top of other players without them knowing unless they are spamming skills they are forced to slot.

Hardened Ward:
- Still targetable, including crittable, and can be entirely consumed in one attack + light attack
- Every offensive skill in the game works to eat away at shields
- Doesn't scale to the number of players attacking
- Very expensive, and under heavy pressure require spamming often.
- Zero offensive benefits
- Using shield still means you are entirely targettable by enemies

And that is just Hardened ward, no other class has even remotely a defensive skill that is anywhere as good as cloak defensively or offensively. The closest to raw power may be Corrosive Armor or Necro transform, but those are expensive ultimates. And even then, cloak is better than those defensively.

IMO, the easiest fix to cloak would be to make it to where all player based AOE damage breaks it, DOT or direct damage. But, also, increase the cloak time to 5 seconds, but give it a 6 second cooldown. So you cannot cast earlier to refresh cloak and you will always have 1 second of visibility.

Isn't Hardened Ward a sorc ability?
https://eso-skillbook.com/skill/hardened-ward

He's comparing the two skills by saying hardened ward isn't as good as cloak. Maybe, maybe but. But on sorc you have multiple big burst heals, shields, evasion and a great escape utility. So it's not really a fair comparison.

DrSlaughtr

Dracane wrote: »

DaggersKid wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

If you don't play NB on the reg you should understand everything you think cloak can do is not based in reality.

It costs me upwards of 3 to 4 hits of shadowy to just get passed guards in a keep. That's 10 to 13k of mag. Every other class can defend against the guards. They will kill me. Literally just walking through the gate house breaks stealth. From there is a minefield of guards with perma sight.

If I get hit with haunting curse I have to spend 15k mag to avoid getting instant killed by the tick. Every other class can out heal it.

Every player had easy access to 3 skills, all of which give you major buffs, plus detect pots. On top of that several classes have skills that are perfect for yanking NBs out. Templars, DKs and sorcs, specifically.

Don't blame NBs for Caluurions. I'd happily go back to update 29 to run heart and stygian again. Blame ZOS. Pure damage and pen is not enough to fight in this proc meta.

Our biggest attacks are telegraphed. Incap/Harvest warns you to roll dodge. Caluurions gives you one second to react, which is plenty of time to break free and roll or block.

They also added multiple CP geared specifically to counter NBs and are even adding a mythic on top of it all that will further give you protection.

Of all the things to complain about right now, this is still it? We have DKs, templars and necros running wild with little counter play. They have all the heals, all to mitigation and just as much damage as a NB, and none of it is changing. No other class has so much built in counter play.

Not to mention the fact that one or two good DKs can wipe a group. I'm not wiping groups by myself on gank blade. If I see a 12 man the best I can do is pick off the weakest like a wolf and slow them down enough that reinforcements arrive. Don't blame the NB if your group members run out one at a time to stop me.

NBs are the uboats of pvp. We attack from the depths then sink back below before getting caught. If you can't or refuse to do the most basic work to negate a NB then complaining about it on the forum is unfair to the small number of players who put the work in at being good at this one class, especially when they are not performing at the same level as the big three.

I am sorry. I didn't mean to blame the player. I know it's Zenimax and people will always use the most powerful thing given to them.

What you say regarding DKs and zergs, I feel the same. I can also only try to pick off the the weakest link and maybe kite them for some more. That's just how Sorc and NB are designed I guess. I just don't understand what you mean with NB being telegraphed. You strike from stealth, there is no way to avoid Incap and Caluurion. Even if you break free almost instantly, these things will hit you. (remember, the average human has a reaction time of up to 0.3 seconds. Two of my overload light attacks with crystal weapons + force shock deliver damage over 0.4s from when damage is first received and most plebs can't deal with that either)

Caluurion is so desynced, just like Nightblade ganks generally are, that everything just hits in most cases. Not sure how you play yours, but it sounds like a personal issue when your Caluurion misses and guards destroy you so.

caluurion takes 1 sec to hit. this is more than enough time to block, which will also prevent a stun from surprise attack or halfing incap dmg. then you cc the nb and kill it or let it run away. it is telegraphed, because if you see a nb cloaking around you, you are ready for holding block or dodge. also incap has a cast time and a loud sound, which makes it easy to evade or block it. in proc i mostly use dawnbreaker anyway, bc incap is so telegraphed and often doesn‘t work as a vampire (greens out with over 125 ult).

mostly glass cannons die to burst (other nbs or light armour sorcs). other classes shouldn‘t die in a 1-1 situation against a nb ever, even if only semi-prepared (you should have your buffs up always).

without caluurion nbs can‘t burst ***. so yeah i would be happy with nerfed caluurion and buffed nb skills. we need a delayed burst possibility without caluurion (to stack dmg in one gdc) and we need generally more dmg / penetration or less defence / health / mitigation on other classes.

so please buff nb. it is gutted atm and only either noob snipers or people that played it since years still play it in pvp… everyone and his mother changed to magdk…

I don't know what x-ray eyes you have that you see nightblades cloaking around you all the time. The idea of it all is that you can not see them. You can be paranoid, sure, and that's it.

Assume at any battle there are one or two floating around. Be ready to react. I do this every session in my NB. I'm trying to hunt them just as much kill other enemy classes. If I get got by another NB it's usually because I got too lazy and laser focused on what was ahead of me.

DrSlaughtr

Merforum wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

I think ZOS knows that they allowed inviso to make ganking off the charts. I don't know if anyone can fathom the amount of PVP players THEY LOST over the years because they allowed this insanity. I hated PVP with a passion for 4 years, now it is becoming my favorite thing. I lost 4 years of fun because my initial impressions were so jarringly toxic and unnecessary.it).

The class is built to be a sneak rogue. From the beginning. By your own admission you spent 4 years not pvping because you feared one class rather than learn how to defend against them. Now it's your favorite thing? I'll take a wild guess that your biggest issue was bombers. Now you have DC necro bombers which can bomb multiple times a minute and competely own a fight.

This idea that massive amounts of players have quit the game or pvp over a direct damage gank that dies the moment you break their only defense is unfounded.

Merforum wrote: »

This might limit ganking potential but not really address the other issues of being able to cloak over and over and get crit hits on demand. Not only that, but how TEAM negative NB is. In BGs every other class cringes when they are teamed with a NB for good reason they KNOW that NB will be totally selfish. Looking to steal kills, not do objectives and what do you think happens when you use inviso over and over, the other teams FOCUS on the non-NB they can SEE. HELLO. I sometimes feel like saying, I'm NB using dark cloak, team player, non-cheeser here.it).

1. You can't crit "on demand." You get one crit that sometimes goes off while invisible. If it fails, which it often does, you're toast. Even then, it's not like you can just keep popping shadowy then attack over and over. It doesn't work that way. That's inefficient at best and a death sentence at worst. The moment you run out of any resource on a NB you're done. And unlike other classes we don't get big regeneration. Buffed my mag Regen is like 900 and my Stam is a little over 1000.

2. Who cares if it's team oriented? First BGs is a small sample size of pvp, but either way it doesn't matter. No matter what mode, players are going to sometimes be very team minded and sometimes not. Literally complaining about having kills "stolen" is not a reason to gut a class.

Merforum wrote: »

Anyway, the answer is clear. At a minimum make inviso have 1 sec longer cooldown than the skill (3 sec skill, 4 sec CD). Then tweak a few of the other skills to be more useful in PVP. In PVE NB is very strong for damage and great tank, healer meh, so I don't understand the people who keep saying NB is the weakest class (actually we know why and no one's buying it).

It's not clear because the skill doesn't work the way you seem to think it works. I've explained this numerous times. I'll give yet another example.

A guard from 50 meters away yanks me from stealth, forcing me to hit shadowy disguise. Unfortunately the guard threw a fireball at me before I did so. That fireball still hits me and breaks my invisible. Under your suggestion I'm now revealed for 3 to 4 seconds, which means I'm dead.

Here's another. I'm running along a wall, occasionally hitting SD to be safe. Unknowingly I run through an enemy templar that was crouched. I now can't hit SD and the templar will topple charge and jab me to death before the cooldown is up.

You can't remove SD and that's what a cooldown would do. Same for ramping cost. You'd have to turn the class into a Necro rip off and competely ruin it's identity in the process. Even still, the moment NBs would remotely do well you'd just get more posts about it.

People who don't run nightblades and refuse to defend against them are not who should decide changes to the class. They are direct damage burst builds and no NB is going to single handedly wipe full groups and ruin your push. Work together. Defend. Kill the NB. It's not hard.

Even diehard defenders of inviso are finally realizing that as OP a crutch as inviso is, it is not worth the class getting gutted over and over. I guess there always has to be one person like the japanese soldiers on the islands who didn't know WW2 was over.

So rather than counter my points you state this. I'm sorry. I really am, that some players cannot understand that this class was built to run this way and we are not doing anything wrong. We aren't cheesing the game any more than a templar using jabs or a warden throwing subassault. Our toolkit is built around stealth and we play the class specifically to enjoy this unique style.

I can run every other set up on all my other classes. I can heal or brawl or range on all the other classes and it gets boring. NB is hard. You have low resources. Low sustain. Low armor. Low health. Less s\w damage than what's achievable on other classes. You live or die by 3 seconds or less of burst, which requires the first hit to crit (when it works) and when it fails? Do everything you can to escape before a zerg jumps on you. It's exciting and difficult and rewarding.

I want you to try and catch me. I want you to use the basic options afforded to everyone to break my SD and hunt me down. And if you get me I'll send you a GG and thanks you got the fun. 😊

divnyi

TheEndBringer wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

I do not have a proper burst heal on NB. Every other class has at least one (and some have more than one) great burst heal. The only burst heal in siphoning is just as likely to accidently hit another player than me AND it eats health in return.

It heals you or someone in front of you. Target it in the wall and that's it, the heal is all yours.

So many wild exaggerations flying in this thread lmao. Cloak equals Corrosive Armor. Cloak wasn't buffed.
Can you people discuss things instead of moan?

Yes so let's spin around on the battlefield surrounded by enemies and allies to find some scrap of empty dirt to point at so I can use this bad heal that also eats health back with a dot.

You mean templar doesn't have decent burst heal too? Cool.

Are you suggesting templar doesn't have a decent burst heal? 🤔

I'm using your logic, because NB heal behaves exactly the same.

Dracane

divnyi wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

I do not have a proper burst heal on NB. Every other class has at least one (and some have more than one) great burst heal. The only burst heal in siphoning is just as likely to accidently hit another player than me AND it eats health in return.

It heals you or someone in front of you. Target it in the wall and that's it, the heal is all yours.

So many wild exaggerations flying in this thread lmao. Cloak equals Corrosive Armor. Cloak wasn't buffed.
Can you people discuss things instead of moan?

Yes so let's spin around on the battlefield surrounded by enemies and allies to find some scrap of empty dirt to point at so I can use this bad heal that also eats health back with a dot.

You mean templar doesn't have decent burst heal too? Cool.

Are you suggesting templar doesn't have a decent burst heal? 🤔

I'm using your logic, because NB heal behaves exactly the same.

Yep and everything is streamlined. Breath of Life, Twilight, Healthy Offering, Render Flesh, it all heals for the same now + - class passives. So arguments of lacking healing don't cut it anymore. That was the long standing complaint Nightblades had and what they demanded they were given. Now they have it and it's still somehow not good enough. They're just very special.

Merforum

Dracane wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

I do not have a proper burst heal on NB. Every other class has at least one (and some have more than one) great burst heal. The only burst heal in siphoning is just as likely to accidently hit another player than me AND it eats health in return.

It heals you or someone in front of you. Target it in the wall and that's it, the heal is all yours.

So many wild exaggerations flying in this thread lmao. Cloak equals Corrosive Armor. Cloak wasn't buffed.
Can you people discuss things instead of moan?

Yes so let's spin around on the battlefield surrounded by enemies and allies to find some scrap of empty dirt to point at so I can use this bad heal that also eats health back with a dot.

You mean templar doesn't have decent burst heal too? Cool.

Are you suggesting templar doesn't have a decent burst heal? 🤔

I'm using your logic, because NB heal behaves exactly the same.

Yep and everything is streamlined. Breath of Life, Twilight, Healthy Offering, Render Flesh, it all heals for the same now + - class passives. So arguments of lacking healing don't cut it anymore. That was the long standing complaint Nightblades had and what they demanded they were given. Now they have it and it's still somehow not good enough. They're just very special.

EXACTLY and as an example I was watching a streamer the other night and it was a NB which I usually find so boring, with the sneaking and cheese ambushes. But this guy was amazing. He was fighting really good players too. Just wiping the floor with mDK, mPlar, had a bunch of fights that were 1v5, 1v4, 1v3, 1v2 and mostly 1v1. Even had a stalemate with a WW and a difficult time killing a mDK, then had to fight both at the same time, obviously he couldn't kill them but amazingly the couldn't kill him either.GUESS WHAT, he was using DARK CLOAK and said it was a great skill and NOT using shade either. A brawler NB that killed literally everyone. And only died one time in about 2 hours mostly because a huge zerg came out of nowhere, and I think he was afk. So a NB can be a killing machine AND be hard to kill at the same time, so I guess a NB needing inviso to survive is more of a ltp issue.

DrSlaughtr

divnyi wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

I do not have a proper burst heal on NB. Every other class has at least one (and some have more than one) great burst heal. The only burst heal in siphoning is just as likely to accidently hit another player than me AND it eats health in return.

It heals you or someone in front of you. Target it in the wall and that's it, the heal is all yours.

So many wild exaggerations flying in this thread lmao. Cloak equals Corrosive Armor. Cloak wasn't buffed.
Can you people discuss things instead of moan?

Yes so let's spin around on the battlefield surrounded by enemies and allies to find some scrap of empty dirt to point at so I can use this bad heal that also eats health back with a dot.

You mean templar doesn't have decent burst heal too? Cool.

Are you suggesting templar doesn't have a decent burst heal? 🤔

I'm using your logic, because NB heal behaves exactly the same.

I assume you mean Rushed Ceremony. Ignore the fact that it is a better heal simply by being a templar skill, a templar has access to other heals as well. Healing Ritual is only slightly more expensive and heals self and allies. The tooltip is a little less but I still pull over 12k on it before crit.

You also have Puncturing Sweeps, Repentance, Extended Ritual and the best healing ultimate in the game. It's not a fair comparison. Every other class has better healing and mitigation. We sacrifice those things for glass cannons who rely on invisibility and elusiveness.

DrSlaughtr

Merforum wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

I do not have a proper burst heal on NB. Every other class has at least one (and some have more than one) great burst heal. The only burst heal in siphoning is just as likely to accidently hit another player than me AND it eats health in return.

It heals you or someone in front of you. Target it in the wall and that's it, the heal is all yours.

So many wild exaggerations flying in this thread lmao. Cloak equals Corrosive Armor. Cloak wasn't buffed.
Can you people discuss things instead of moan?

Yes so let's spin around on the battlefield surrounded by enemies and allies to find some scrap of empty dirt to point at so I can use this bad heal that also eats health back with a dot.

You mean templar doesn't have decent burst heal too? Cool.

Are you suggesting templar doesn't have a decent burst heal? 🤔

I'm using your logic, because NB heal behaves exactly the same.

Yep and everything is streamlined. Breath of Life, Twilight, Healthy Offering, Render Flesh, it all heals for the same now + - class passives. So arguments of lacking healing don't cut it anymore. That was the long standing complaint Nightblades had and what they demanded they were given. Now they have it and it's still somehow not good enough. They're just very special.

EXACTLY and as an example I was watching a streamer the other night and it was a NB which I usually find so boring, with the sneaking and cheese ambushes. But this guy was amazing. He was fighting really good players too. Just wiping the floor with mDK, mPlar, had a bunch of fights that were 1v5, 1v4, 1v3, 1v2 and mostly 1v1. Even had a stalemate with a WW and a difficult time killing a mDK, then had to fight both at the same time, obviously he couldn't kill them but amazingly the couldn't kill him either.GUESS WHAT, he was using DARK DEAL and said it was a great skill and NOT using shade either. A brawler NB that killed literally everyone. And only died one time in about 2 hours mostly because a huge zerg came out of nowhere, and I think he was afk. So a NB can be a killing machine AND be hard to kill at the same time, so I guess a NB needing inviso to survive is more of a ltp issue.

No one ever said we need to it survive in general. We need it to survive as glass cannon burst builds. You can right now go play a NB brawler and do well. The issue here is that same players find the stealth class inconvenient to deal with so they want to eliminate it. This is what the class was designed to do. The only l2p issue here are players who do not want to do the most basic things to defend against NBs.

Our heals are not built to run the same way as other classes and using that argument is a false equivalency. Anyone who is going to stand up and proclaim Malevolent Offering is functionality as good as coagulating, twilight, hasty prayer, etc is now understanding how the skill actually functions in the field. Vigor remains better and it's a hot.

By the way, I don't want or need it to be a coagulating clone. 99% of NBs are sub 25k health sub 20k armor builds. You have every offensive and defensive advantage. Use them.

Amottica

I do wonder why the numerous counters are not a serious part of this discussion since they are not only extremely effective at rendering cloak useless but Zenimax has specifically said the available counters are what makes this skill balance. That makes it core to the discussion and pretty much means cloak is not OP by any definition.

Merforum

Merforum wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

I do not have a proper burst heal on NB. Every other class has at least one (and some have more than one) great burst heal. The only burst heal in siphoning is just as likely to accidently hit another player than me AND it eats health in return.

It heals you or someone in front of you. Target it in the wall and that's it, the heal is all yours.

So many wild exaggerations flying in this thread lmao. Cloak equals Corrosive Armor. Cloak wasn't buffed.
Can you people discuss things instead of moan?

Yes so let's spin around on the battlefield surrounded by enemies and allies to find some scrap of empty dirt to point at so I can use this bad heal that also eats health back with a dot.

You mean templar doesn't have decent burst heal too? Cool.

Are you suggesting templar doesn't have a decent burst heal? 🤔

I'm using your logic, because NB heal behaves exactly the same.

Yep and everything is streamlined. Breath of Life, Twilight, Healthy Offering, Render Flesh, it all heals for the same now + - class passives. So arguments of lacking healing don't cut it anymore. That was the long standing complaint Nightblades had and what they demanded they were given. Now they have it and it's still somehow not good enough. They're just very special.

EXACTLY and as an example I was watching a streamer the other night and it was a NB which I usually find so boring, with the sneaking and cheese ambushes. But this guy was amazing. He was fighting really good players too. Just wiping the floor with mDK, mPlar, had a bunch of fights that were 1v5, 1v4, 1v3, 1v2 and mostly 1v1. Even had a stalemate with a WW and a difficult time killing a mDK, then had to fight both at the same time, obviously he couldn't kill them but amazingly the couldn't kill him either.GUESS WHAT, he was using DARK CLOAK and said it was a great skill and NOT using shade either. A brawler NB that killed literally everyone. And only died one time in about 2 hours mostly because a huge zerg came out of nowhere, and I think he was afk. So a NB can be a killing machine AND be hard to kill at the same time, so I guess a NB needing inviso to survive is more of a ltp issue.

BTW the NB defensive weakness and 'difficult' that some people are talking about is SELF-IMPOSED . If you have 5-5-2-1 where ALL sets are for high damage and nothing else and you don't use healing skills (or use absolute cheese like blood frenzy) , YOU SHOULD DIE if you miss your kill. But you can use the same sets as a sorc for instance, still have 3 out of 4 sets being damage and 1 set for defense or use sithis. That is a fair comparison to show that inviso is OP, and even better than streak which is borderline OP too.

BTW NOBODY is trying to remove a play style and has been said many times allow inviso to give a huge FIRST STRIKE capability, that should NOT outright kill anyone but give a HUGE advantage in the fight. THAT is what is a healthy balance. Also as many have said healing is off the charts as well as damage so reducing self-healing to only allowing 1 HOT and 1 burst heal in a second, will make it so the ambush, has a lot more potential than it does now.

Everybody who is saying inviso is OP are people who play all classes and making an objective opinion, spare everyone the insulting 'oh you just got killed by a NB and need to l2p'. We can instantly kill the 4 damage set NBs that people in this thread seem to use, the GOOD NBs that use 1 defensive set are much harder to kill and for them inviso is OP.

Amottica

Merforum wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

I do not have a proper burst heal on NB. Every other class has at least one (and some have more than one) great burst heal. The only burst heal in siphoning is just as likely to accidently hit another player than me AND it eats health in return.

It heals you or someone in front of you. Target it in the wall and that's it, the heal is all yours.

So many wild exaggerations flying in this thread lmao. Cloak equals Corrosive Armor. Cloak wasn't buffed.
Can you people discuss things instead of moan?

Yes so let's spin around on the battlefield surrounded by enemies and allies to find some scrap of empty dirt to point at so I can use this bad heal that also eats health back with a dot.

You mean templar doesn't have decent burst heal too? Cool.

Are you suggesting templar doesn't have a decent burst heal? 🤔

I'm using your logic, because NB heal behaves exactly the same.

Yep and everything is streamlined. Breath of Life, Twilight, Healthy Offering, Render Flesh, it all heals for the same now + - class passives. So arguments of lacking healing don't cut it anymore. That was the long standing complaint Nightblades had and what they demanded they were given. Now they have it and it's still somehow not good enough. They're just very special.

EXACTLY and as an example I was watching a streamer the other night and it was a NB which I usually find so boring, with the sneaking and cheese ambushes. But this guy was amazing. He was fighting really good players too. Just wiping the floor with mDK, mPlar, had a bunch of fights that were 1v5, 1v4, 1v3, 1v2 and mostly 1v1. Even had a stalemate with a WW and a difficult time killing a mDK, then had to fight both at the same time, obviously he couldn't kill them but amazingly the couldn't kill him either.GUESS WHAT, he was using DARK CLOAK and said it was a great skill and NOT using shade either. A brawler NB that killed literally everyone. And only died one time in about 2 hours mostly because a huge zerg came out of nowhere, and I think he was afk. So a NB can be a killing machine AND be hard to kill at the same time, so I guess a NB needing inviso to survive is more of a ltp issue.

Everybody who is saying inviso is OP are people who play all classes and making an objective opinion, spare everyone the insulting 'oh you just got killed by a NB and need to l2p'. We can instantly kill the 4 damage set NBs that people in this thread seem to use, the GOOD NBs that use 1 defensive set are much harder to kill and for them inviso is OP.

That would be they are making a subjective opinion about how they perceive the skill, not an objective one. It is also an assumption that everyone who holds that opinion are people who play all classes.

The fact remains that there are extremely effective counters in the game that render cloak useless and that is a bonafide fact that even the developers have noted makes the skill balanced in the game.

Corrected spelling

DrSlaughtr

Merforum wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

I do not have a proper burst heal on NB. Every other class has at least one (and some have more than one) great burst heal. The only burst heal in siphoning is just as likely to accidently hit another player than me AND it eats health in return.

It heals you or someone in front of you. Target it in the wall and that's it, the heal is all yours.

So many wild exaggerations flying in this thread lmao. Cloak equals Corrosive Armor. Cloak wasn't buffed.
Can you people discuss things instead of moan?

Yes so let's spin around on the battlefield surrounded by enemies and allies to find some scrap of empty dirt to point at so I can use this bad heal that also eats health back with a dot.

You mean templar doesn't have decent burst heal too? Cool.

Are you suggesting templar doesn't have a decent burst heal? 🤔

I'm using your logic, because NB heal behaves exactly the same.

Yep and everything is streamlined. Breath of Life, Twilight, Healthy Offering, Render Flesh, it all heals for the same now + - class passives. So arguments of lacking healing don't cut it anymore. That was the long standing complaint Nightblades had and what they demanded they were given. Now they have it and it's still somehow not good enough. They're just very special.

EXACTLY and as an example I was watching a streamer the other night and it was a NB which I usually find so boring, with the sneaking and cheese ambushes. But this guy was amazing. He was fighting really good players too. Just wiping the floor with mDK, mPlar, had a bunch of fights that were 1v5, 1v4, 1v3, 1v2 and mostly 1v1. Even had a stalemate with a WW and a difficult time killing a mDK, then had to fight both at the same time, obviously he couldn't kill them but amazingly the couldn't kill him either.GUESS WHAT, he was using DARK CLOAK and said it was a great skill and NOT using shade either. A brawler NB that killed literally everyone. And only died one time in about 2 hours mostly because a huge zerg came out of nowhere, and I think he was afk. So a NB can be a killing machine AND be hard to kill at the same time, so I guess a NB needing inviso to survive is more of a ltp issue.

BTW the NB defensive weakness and 'difficult' that some people are talking about is SELF-IMPOSED . If you have 5-5-2-1 where ALL sets are for high damage and nothing else and you don't use healing skills (or use absolute cheese like blood frenzy) , YOU SHOULD DIE if you miss your kill. But you can use the same sets as a sorc for instance, still have 3 out of 4 sets being damage and 1 set for defense or use sithis. That is a fair comparison to show that inviso is OP, and even better than streak which is borderline OP too.

BTW NOBODY is trying to remove a play style and has been said many times allow inviso to give a huge FIRST STRIKE capability, that should NOT outright kill anyone but give a HUGE advantage in the fight. THAT is what is a healthy balance. Also as many have said healing is off the charts as well as damage so reducing self-healing to only allowing 1 HOT and 1 burst heal in a second, will make it so the ambush, has a lot more potential than it does now.

Everybody who is saying inviso is OP are people who play all classes and making an objective opinion, spare everyone the insulting 'oh you just got killed by a NB and need to l2p'. We can instantly kill the 4 damage set NBs that people in this thread seem to use, the GOOD NBs that use 1 defensive set are much harder to kill and for them inviso is OP.

I run zero defensive sets and survive because I know how to avoid damage, when to attack and not attack, and don't get sucked into one fight only to get jacked from flank by another player.

If I take off one offensive set I no longer have enough damage to fight dks, templars and necros.

I only said l2p because it was thrown at me for not paying NB like a generic brawler.

I play all classes. This is how I know how to kill other classes but I main NB. If you think I can't compete on every class, you're incorrect.

Everyone hates streak but sorcs. Everyone hates jabs but templars. Everyone hates everything about DKs but dks. Etc. If you got killed by a NB or you failed to kill one before they got away, that isn't a valid reason to lobby for the skill to be gutted.

As for "first strike capability." The class is built around it. If you were to take away that crit from shadowy, our damage is just too low to hurt anyone save maybe other NBs. The reason is because we have no way to build to 7 to 8k damage like other classes. This is because our passives do not feed raw damage and we also can't use sets like clever alchemist. We used to be able to but the set was changed to stop us from being able to use it.

My buffed damage sits at about 6k and pen around 17k. My templar and DK builds can easily reach 8k with good pen, plus all the mitigation and heals that go with it. NBs rely on crit. That's how they're designed.

I think all the players who main one class, whether NB or sorc or other, are tired of coming on here and seeing pvp complaints from other players. Yes there are times when things overperform. For NBs? That was the bomber build. It was just dumb easy to kill large groups. But they are no longer a major factor because they've been nearly driven extinct because MA was nerfed and necros are so much easier to bomb on.

Are we really going to sit here and say that 1 NB ganker is a bigger issue to deal with than one Necro DC bomber that can wipe full groups?

TX12001rwb17_ESO

Shadowy Disguise ruins Nightblades, people build their entire characters around this one skill without realizing that they do not need to be a stealth ganker, take Dark Cloak instead and you can fight like a warrior, most NBs that I see who use Invisibility when discovered try to constantly recast the ability again instead of actively trying to defend themselves.

Merforum

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Shadowy Disguise ruins Nightblades, people build their entire characters around this one skill without realizing that they do not need to be a stealth ganker, take Dark Cloak instead and you can fight like a warrior, most NBs that I see who use Invisibility when discovered try to constantly recast the ability again instead of actively trying to defend themselves.

Exactly. So the idea that NB is helpless without inviso like people keep saying over and over is just wrong. I just tested my NB is BGs and guess what, didn't get killed ONCE with 'dark cloak', yes NB can stay alive very long and the passives are great for a tanky WW, which I was testing.

It is an OBJECTIVE FACT that INVISO is totally OP in any PVP game. And being able to cast on demand over and over with no cooldown is obscene. (Speaking from the perspective of using inviso and getting bored by how easy it is, NOT because I get killed by NB which happens less than 1 out of 10 tries). THAT IS FOR ANY GAME, not just ESO. No other PVP game allows anything like this at all. If some do what are they? IF not, why do you think that is?

And people are just asking for a tiny change to make it a tiny bit less OP, like a simple cooldown. Typically if someone is arguing in good faith they would offer a compromise but on this issue the defenders Offer nothing. Meanwhile, I agree there have been nerfs in the past that hinder NB in PVE just because a few people can't play NB without inviso in PVP. ZOS could fix it easily BTW.

DrSlaughtr

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Shadowy Disguise ruins Nightblades, people build their entire characters around this one skill without realizing that they do not need to be a stealth ganker, take Dark Cloak instead and you can fight like a warrior, most NBs that I see who use Invisibility when discovered try to constantly recast the ability again instead of actively trying to defend themselves.

No it doesn't. It allows people to play the most unique playstyle in the game, the style is has been built for. Dark cloak exists for people who want to play differently, especially PvE tanks and healers, but also brawler blades.

You're making it sound like period only play NB snipers/ganks/etc because they can't play a brawler blade with is so condensing. It's not exactly difficult to play a brawler blade. It's way harder to successfully run a sneak blade without getting wiped every time you pop out when even just one person on the opposition puts forth the minimum amount of effort to catch you.

This idea that because you CAN run differently means you shouldn't run the primary design of the build is disingenuous. You can run templar without jabs. You can run DK without whip. You can run necro without Goliath or Colossus. You can run sorc without pets or streak. Those are not reasons to remove the skills.

DrSlaughtr

Merforum wrote: »

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Shadowy Disguise ruins Nightblades, people build their entire characters around this one skill without realizing that they do not need to be a stealth ganker, take Dark Cloak instead and you can fight like a warrior, most NBs that I see who use Invisibility when discovered try to constantly recast the ability again instead of actively trying to defend themselves.

Exactly. So the idea that NB is helpless without inviso like people keep saying over and over is just wrong. I just tested my NB is BGs and guess what, didn't get killed ONCE with 'dark cloak', yes NB can stay alive very long and the passives are great for a tanky WW, which I was testing.

It is an OBJECTIVE FACT that INVISO is totally OP in any PVP game. And being able to cast on demand over and over with no cooldown is obscene. (Speaking from the perspective of using inviso and getting bored by how easy it is, NOT because I get killed by NB which happens less than 1 out of 10 tries). THAT IS FOR ANY GAME, not just ESO. No other PVP game allows anything like this at all. If some do what are they? IF not, why do you think that is?

And people are just asking for a tiny change to make it a tiny bit less OP, like a simple cooldown. Typically if someone is arguing in good faith they would offer a compromise but on this issue the defenders Offer nothing. Meanwhile, I agree there have been nerfs in the past that hinder NB in PVE just because a few people can't play NB without inviso in PVP. ZOS could fix it easily BTW.

I have, numerous times, pointed out how you cannot put a cooldown on shadowy disguise unless you're prepared to make large changes to both the class as well others and the world npcs in general. I have done this without anyone offering counter arguments. I have also made dozens of other explanations to everything you've said, again without any counter argument from you or anyone else.

Respectfully, you just keep saying the same thing over and over. We get it. You hate NBs. You think it's easy (it isn't). You think it's cheesey (it isn't). If it was so easy to kill players, wipe groups and earn vast amounts of AP, all those salty nb bombers would have just switched to ganking. Instead they went to the actual easy mode group wipe build. Necro bombers.

I continue to be perplexed why NBs are so reviled right now even you have 3 classes making up 80% of the battlefield, all of which have group wipe capabilities. Then you have a single target, direct damage class whose build lives off unreliable crit and main defense doesn't come from op heals or mitigation, who have a dozen direct counters between skills, passives and cp.

Amottica

Merforum wrote: »

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Shadowy Disguise ruins Nightblades, people build their entire characters around this one skill without realizing that they do not need to be a stealth ganker, take Dark Cloak instead and you can fight like a warrior, most NBs that I see who use Invisibility when discovered try to constantly recast the ability again instead of actively trying to defend themselves.

It is an OBJECTIVE FACT that INVISO is totally OP in any PVP game.

Which is why it’s great Zenimax added numinous skills to ESO that brings anyone out of sneak, many of which prevent the use of the cloak skill rending it virtually useless. That is an objective fact.

I think I’d be hard pressed to find another skill in ESO that can be rendered moot by so many other skills. With how well they work I am surprised anyone could have trouble with a NB using cloak.

Merforum

Merforum wrote: »

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Shadowy Disguise ruins Nightblades, people build their entire characters around this one skill without realizing that they do not need to be a stealth ganker, take Dark Cloak instead and you can fight like a warrior, most NBs that I see who use Invisibility when discovered try to constantly recast the ability again instead of actively trying to defend themselves.

Exactly. So the idea that NB is helpless without inviso like people keep saying over and over is just wrong. I just tested my NB is BGs and guess what, didn't get killed ONCE with 'dark cloak', yes NB can stay alive very long and the passives are great for a tanky WW, which I was testing.

It is an OBJECTIVE FACT that INVISO is totally OP in any PVP game. And being able to cast on demand over and over with no cooldown is obscene. (Speaking from the perspective of using inviso and getting bored by how easy it is, NOT because I get killed by NB which happens less than 1 out of 10 tries). THAT IS FOR ANY GAME, not just ESO. No other PVP game allows anything like this at all. If some do what are they? IF not, why do you think that is?

And people are just asking for a tiny change to make it a tiny bit less OP, like a simple cooldown. Typically if someone is arguing in good faith they would offer a compromise but on this issue the defenders Offer nothing. Meanwhile, I agree there have been nerfs in the past that hinder NB in PVE just because a few people can't play NB without inviso in PVP. ZOS could fix it easily BTW.

STILL waiting for any PVP Game in the world where they allow ON demand, INVISO with no cooldown?
STILL waiting for ONE compromise as how to make INVISO less OP in PVP, any change?

Here's how being objective works, NB is my 2nd favorite class but I would like to see INVISO with at least a cooldown, and shade to be LOS at least.
Sorcerer is my favorite class but I would like to see streak being less OP in PVP, with a cooldown or reduce the stun to only first target hit or reduce range to 7m, etc., also crystal weapon can be tuned down.
Templar is my favorite for EASY mode, but sweeps is a little too easy in PVP, heal or damage should be reduced a little more in PVP only, btw bubble is way too OP and I agree with the changes to make it less so.
DK is only OK, not that fun really for me, but currently is a monster in PVP, way to strong and I agree with the nerfs and propose one more overlooked thing, they reduced eruption to minimal mag/time but forgot to remove it from procing 990 stam per sec passive
Warden/Necro were fun in PVP a year ago but now kind of boring, they seem to be slightly over nerfing warden healing and could nerf by a little bit necro healing.
Overall most of the changes would be just tweaks, INVISO is main one that can be considered broken.

I could go on but the point is that unlike the projection from others WHO THEMSELVES ONLY WANT OP stuff for their favorite class, I am looking at all things objectively and want what would make the game better.