Cloak Change

Joosef_Kivikilpi

Tendoshii wrote: »

Cloak is the most OP skill out there. In combination with the passives, it’s the strongest defensive skill and provides a massive offensive boost. The only counter play is a resource intensive guessing game. With the ability to stack procs, either their target dies or they get away. So here’s the fix: “Barter with (whatever Elder Scrolls deity) to enter the shadow realm for 5 seconds at the cost of 20% of their max health, avoiding all ground effects and preventing all DoTs until revealed or the skill ends.” Remains a strong defensive skill with high offensive burst potential but adds a higher risk reward element that requires iLife to use rather than mindless spamming the moment anyone looks at them.

When did you start playing ESO? Because Cloak ends up being more of a crutch making a Nightblade believe they're safe, when they aren't.

Use Detection Potion or Radiant Magelight, get Free AP, and move on.

This is coming from a jaded Nightblade main of 7 years. Don't complain about the skill if you aren't properly using the multitude of hard, hard counters to the only class defining ability we have left... Unique, until you consider Vampires- which get extremely useful invisibility for cheaper resources on any class lolz

Amottica

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Joosef_Kivikilpi wrote: »

Tendoshii wrote: »

Cloak is the most OP skill out there. In combination with the passives, it’s the strongest defensive skill and provides a massive offensive boost. The only counter play is a resource intensive guessing game. With the ability to stack procs, either their target dies or they get away. So here’s the fix: “Barter with (whatever Elder Scrolls deity) to enter the shadow realm for 5 seconds at the cost of 20% of their max health, avoiding all ground effects and preventing all DoTs until revealed or the skill ends.” Remains a strong defensive skill with high offensive burst potential but adds a higher risk reward element that requires iLife to use rather than mindless spamming the moment anyone looks at them.

When did you start playing ESO? Because Cloak ends up being more of a crutch making a Nightblade believe they're safe, when they aren't.

Use Detection Potion or Radiant Magelight, get Free AP, and move on.

This is coming from a jaded Nightblade main of 7 years. Don't complain about the skill if you aren't properly using the multitude of hard, hard counters to the only class defining ability we have left... Unique, until you consider Vampires- which get extremely useful invisibility for cheaper resources on any class lolz

I agree. Clearly, I would since I have pointed out the counters existing and how effective they are. It is fun hunting NB gankers and rendering their cloak useless.

KoIIegoIas

I bet that this people complaining about cloak are mostly Zerglings without willingness to improve their pvp Skills( or they wouldnt Zerg) and exactly those wich ragewhisper good players beeing a ''Cheater'', just because they have high knowledge of game mechanics and sets and the synergy between. You must be DK mains with the opinion of combustion is balanced in PvP and the need of Skill to survive with that Class.

ResidentContrarian

Not just cloak, invisibility as a whole is a bad mechanic in the game that needs to be looked at.

It certainly needs to cost more than sprinting, which applies to cloak as well if you have the right build esp. in CP.

DrSlaughtr

ResidentContrarian wrote: »

Not just cloak, invisibility as a whole is a bad mechanic in the game that needs to be looked at.

It certainly needs to cost more than sprinting, which applies to cloak as well if you have the right build esp. in CP.

Cloak absolutely costs more than sprinting...

DrSlaughtr

Joosef_Kivikilpi wrote: »

Tendoshii wrote: »

Cloak is the most OP skill out there. In combination with the passives, it’s the strongest defensive skill and provides a massive offensive boost. The only counter play is a resource intensive guessing game. With the ability to stack procs, either their target dies or they get away. So here’s the fix: “Barter with (whatever Elder Scrolls deity) to enter the shadow realm for 5 seconds at the cost of 20% of their max health, avoiding all ground effects and preventing all DoTs until revealed or the skill ends.” Remains a strong defensive skill with high offensive burst potential but adds a higher risk reward element that requires iLife to use rather than mindless spamming the moment anyone looks at them.

When did you start playing ESO? Because Cloak ends up being more of a crutch making a Nightblade believe they're safe, when they aren't.

Use Detection Potion or Radiant Magelight, get Free AP, and move on.

This is coming from a jaded Nightblade main of 7 years. Don't complain about the skill if you aren't properly using the multitude of hard, hard counters to the only class defining ability we have left... Unique, until you consider Vampires- which get extremely useful invisibility for cheaper resources on any class lolz

The person you quoted spends most of their time running ball groups, to add context to their opinion.

DrSlaughtr

Merforum wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Shadowy Disguise ruins Nightblades, people build their entire characters around this one skill without realizing that they do not need to be a stealth ganker, take Dark Cloak instead and you can fight like a warrior, most NBs that I see who use Invisibility when discovered try to constantly recast the ability again instead of actively trying to defend themselves.

Exactly. So the idea that NB is helpless without inviso like people keep saying over and over is just wrong. I just tested my NB is BGs and guess what, didn't get killed ONCE with 'dark cloak', yes NB can stay alive very long and the passives are great for a tanky WW, which I was testing.

It is an OBJECTIVE FACT that INVISO is totally OP in any PVP game. And being able to cast on demand over and over with no cooldown is obscene. (Speaking from the perspective of using inviso and getting bored by how easy it is, NOT because I get killed by NB which happens less than 1 out of 10 tries). THAT IS FOR ANY GAME, not just ESO. No other PVP game allows anything like this at all. If some do what are they? IF not, why do you think that is?

And people are just asking for a tiny change to make it a tiny bit less OP, like a simple cooldown. Typically if someone is arguing in good faith they would offer a compromise but on this issue the defenders Offer nothing. Meanwhile, I agree there have been nerfs in the past that hinder NB in PVE just because a few people can't play NB without inviso in PVP. ZOS could fix it easily BTW.

STILL waiting for any PVP Game in the world where they allow ON demand, INVISO with no cooldown?
STILL waiting for ONE compromise as how to make INVISO less OP in PVP, any change?

Here's how being objective works, NB is my 2nd favorite class but I would like to see INVISO with at least a cooldown, and shade to be LOS at least.
Sorcerer is my favorite class but I would like to see streak being less OP in PVP, with a cooldown or reduce the stun to only first target hit or reduce range to 7m, etc., also crystal weapon can be tuned down.
Templar is my favorite for EASY mode, but sweeps is a little too easy in PVP, heal or damage should be reduced a little more in PVP only, btw bubble is way too OP and I agree with the changes to make it less so.
DK is only OK, not that fun really for me, but currently is a monster in PVP, way to strong and I agree with the nerfs and propose one more overlooked thing, they reduced eruption to minimal mag/time but forgot to remove it from procing 990 stam per sec passive
Warden/Necro were fun in PVP a year ago but now kind of boring, they seem to be slightly over nerfing warden healing and could nerf by a little bit necro healing.
Overall most of the changes would be just tweaks, INVISO is main one that can be considered broken.

I could go on but the point is that unlike the projection from others WHO THEMSELVES ONLY WANT OP stuff for their favorite class, I am looking at all things objectively and want what would make the game better.

First, talking about other games is against ToS, I believe. So no I'm not going to start listing them. Google is your friend.

Even if I did list them I'm not sure what difference it would make. I've made multiple points about why you can't just plop a cooldown on SD. None gave been refuted.

You can already force a 4 second cooldown. What you want is there to be no effort on your part. So let's be clear about that.

If it's your 2nd favorite class and you don't like cloaking then by all means, make a dark shade brawler and leave my glass cannon alone, please.

And if templar is actually easy mode, in your opinion, please go make a complaint thread about sweeps and bubbles. You wouldn't be the first to want to take away their only class spammable.

Cloak isn't broken. You can keep saying it, but it's functioning as designed, and you have all the tools to render it useless. All the excuses I've read about how it's too hard, too expensive, inconvenient to work together with others, annoying to have detect pots, etc etc, it's just coming down to the fact that, imo, a lot of players just want to 1vX without worrying that an enemy NB will flank you. Just stand there and smash buttons against as many enemies as possible, only to have their clip ruined by a NB.

Being inconvenient isn't a valid reason to delete the most prominent feature of a class, the cornerstone of it's identity.

Here's an example of player laziness. I was at Nik last night. My group was flipping pins. An enemy warden road in on their mount, jumped off, and ran into the dance floor without hitting major resolve or even netch. I killed them with one heavy and one surprise attack.

They sent me an angry message. I asked politely why didn't hit ice fortress before running into combat. He said he was waiting till going through the door.

This is what I mean by laziness. Had he buffed up the moment hopping off his mount, those two attacks wouldn't have been enough and we would've had a proper fight. Even if I tried to stealth, hit mage light or hunter and I'm likely done, especially if he permafrosted. Instead I saw he failed to buff up and I won.

Jman100582

Pretty crazy that people still think nb is the worse pvp class atm. The classes I see the most are magdks, harmony cros, magplars, and then stamblades. In that order. S2w bombing stamblade is still very much a thing and still very much viable. Caluurion ganking is insane right now. The class still has lots of damage, I get hit for 6-8k surprise attacks often enough and 10k+ spec bows while being in heavy armor and 30k+ hp. The class has damage. If you choose to go the dark cloak route with mirage all of a sudden you can also be a tank instead. Nb even has a burst heal that gives minor mending now, and a good burst heal at that. If your nb can’t survive without invis, that is on you for not building into aspects of the class

I still get killed by plenty of soul tethers this patch. On a damage build, with decent survivability. Lots of nbs talk about how the class is a former shadow of itself. Ofc it is, nbs easily use to be able to 3 tap pure tanks in pvp. Which was ridiculous, no class deserves that much damage. If you think nb is bad just because you can’t gank tanks anymore (by tanks I don’t mean the 40k hp stamden running full damage sets I mean the guy wearing iron blood and hist sap that does nothing but hold L2 and spam talons and chain) then honestly I don’t know what to tell you. You aren’t worth arguing with

PeacefulAnarchy

A cooldown on cloak makes it completely useless in PvE and almost useless in PVP. People want a cooldown for PvP because they're frustrated by blades being able to stealth back after first strike, but you're missing that with a cooldown they'll never even get there in the first place. Even if you extend the duration to 5 seconds, they'll almost always have to be starting from a place where you can see them unless they're hiding behind a wall or around a corner (so use the hard counter if you know you have bad positioning). It makes it so that not only would it have all the squishy and hard counter drawbacks it has now, it can only be used in the first place in specific situations and with a much higher penalty for failure.

Also it's already pretty much useless in combat in PvE, but it is very useful for skipping trash or running away when you don't want a fight, both of which would either be destroyed or made significantly more time consuming by adding a cooldown or ramping cost.

Merforum wrote: »

STILL waiting for ONE compromise as how to make INVISO less OP in PVP, any change?

If you want invis to be less situationally op then remove the guaranteed crit. In return give the rest of the nightblade kit some buffs so we can have some power back in PvE. It'll allow other NB builds while keeping cloak as a utility defensive skill (more situationally powerful than other defensive skills but with a cost and a hard counter to balance), and gankers can get their crit elsewhere to still be nearly as powerful as now, but making them even more glass canon than now.

If you want gankers to straight up not be possible then please also remove all the CC abilities and gap closers that allow other classes to be non-stealth gankers. Do that and you can make it so you can't attack from stealth or something. At that point PvP is a completely different game so I don't know what balance would look like.

Aardappelboom

Amottica wrote: »

Cloak isn’t all that OP when taking into consideration the numerous hard and soft counters to cloak. When facing a player who has taken the time to learn to use these counters a NB will find cloak useless. I think it may be the only skill in the game another player can make pointless to have on the bar.

I just wanted to agree, I play a DK and even before all the buffs I found cloak to be managable. Even before knowing skills like spiked/volatile armor dispells invis. Blocking, (even after the first hit) dodgeroll and healing was enough to turn the tide.

With how fragile nb often is, I think it's fine they can cloak whenever needed.

Merforum

PeacefulAnarchy wrote: »

A cooldown on cloak makes it completely useless in PvE and almost useless in PVP. People want a cooldown for PvP because they're frustrated by blades being able to stealth back after first strike, but you're missing that with a cooldown they'll never even get there in the first place. Even if you extend the duration to 5 seconds, they'll almost always have to be starting from a place where you can see them unless they're hiding behind a wall or around a corner (so use the hard counter if you know you have bad positioning). It makes it so that not only would it have all the squishy and hard counter drawbacks it has now, it can only be used in the first place in specific situations and with a much higher penalty for failure.

Also it's already pretty much useless in combat in PvE, but it is very useful for skipping trash or running away when you don't want a fight, both of which would either be destroyed or made significantly more time consuming by adding a cooldown or ramping cost.

Merforum wrote: »

STILL waiting for ONE compromise as how to make INVISO less OP in PVP, any change?

If you want invis to be less situationally op then remove the guaranteed crit. In return give the rest of the nightblade kit some buffs so we can have some power back in PvE. It'll allow other NB builds while keeping cloak as a utility defensive skill (more situationally powerful than other defensive skills but with a cost and a hard counter to balance), and gankers can get their crit elsewhere to still be nearly as powerful as now, but making them even more glass canon than now.

If you want gankers to straight up not be possible then please also remove all the CC abilities and gap closers that allow other classes to be non-stealth gankers. Do that and you can make it so you can't attack from stealth or something. At that point PvP is a completely different game so I don't know what balance would look like.

I accept your compromise, removing 100% crit from inviso will remedy some of the brokenness. And as I said a million times, I don't get 'ganked' any more that happens to beginners. It is not a matter of a person being ganked or getting better and using tools to stop it. BUT I and many others were turned off by PVP for years, 100% because ganking is/was so easy, so prevalent. THE objection is should ANY game ALLOW such insanity that turns OFF literally the majority of beginners. IT simply isn't smart as a company and isn't fair as a player. Just to appease some power fantasy of some people. NO Other game allows this for those very reasons.

umagon

Player’s critical resistance counters critical attacks. By default, players have about 20% crit damage reduction. Which would mean that without and any modifiers from the attacker or on the target, critical damage would only be 30% more damage without an assassination ability slotted and 40% more with an assassination ability slotted due to the hemorrhage passive. And in pvp many players still run at least 2500 critical resistance which is about 37% reduction in damage form critical attacks

Also due to the cost its not effective to use shadowy disguise in standard attack rotations on players. There would be more damage from using for example surprise attack twice in a row than using shadowy disguise then using surprise attack. Same thing with surprise attack -> shadowy disguise-> surprise attack; its better to just use 3x surprise attack and more cost effective.

You only use shadowy disguise to boost ultimate skills, skills like the spectral bow, and execution skills. And they all have virtual cool downs because they can only be used after a period of time or only effective when the target is at low health.

I don’t see any point to removing the 100% critical from shadowy disguise as there is already a counter to critical damage. If players are concerned about critical attacks, they can use sets like impregnable with impenetrable traits and/or champion points and get around 60-70% damage reduction from critical attacks.

KoIIegoIas

Tendoshii wrote: »

Cloak is the most OP skill out there. In combination with the passives, it’s the strongest defensive skill and provides a massive offensive boost. The only counter play is a resource intensive guessing game. With the ability to stack procs, either their target dies or they get away. So here’s the fix: “Barter with (whatever Elder Scrolls deity) to enter the shadow realm for 5 seconds at the cost of 20% of their max health, avoiding all ground effects and preventing all DoTs until revealed or the skill ends.” Remains a strong defensive skill with high offensive burst potential but adds a higher risk reward element that requires iLife to use rather than mindless spamming the moment anyone looks at them.

Imagine complain about cloak, while you have dozens of skills to get Nightblades out of cloak. Ofc its ressource wasted to expose nightblades out of cloak, but also the nightblades waste mana to cloak, so its even.

To respond to your suggestion how to design the skill:

''Barter with (whatever Elder Scrolls deity) to enter the shadow realm for 5 seconds at the cost of 20% of their max health, avoiding all ground effects and preventing all DoTs until revealed or the skill ends.”

With all the options of powerful heals in PvP going on right now, paying 20% HP is absolutely nothing for 5 sec. Cloak, avoiding ground effects and prevent dots would make this skill beyond OP. It would be more broken it ever was since release of the game. In my opinion atleast as someone who played only 1vsX Nightblade in almost all possible variations since Beta and i can already imagine how i would use it effective.

And about the expression ''OP''. ''OP'' means overpowered and gamers started to use it to claim something is so strong that you cant do anything against.
Sadly people nowadays use those two letters, to express something is very strong, nevermind the possibility of a counter or not.
But against Cloak you can use Magelight,Camo Hunter, Caltrops, Flare, spiked armore etc. and detect pots( wich arent nessecary, with the toolkit everyone got to expose cloakers) and the other dozens of aoe.

Cloak got already nerfed 3 or 4 times i beliebe until it become like it is today.

There is no skill in the game (wich costs over 4k mana btw), wich can get countered by so many things like cloak. By far!

And that is also the reason for the ''mindless cloak spam'' how you called it, because most times, there is no other choice for many people, than spamming it until you are almost oom as Stamina NB, since people just need to fart, to get a NB out of cloak.

DrSlaughtr

You can't take away the one crit guarantee (when it works) unless you're prepared to buff flat damage. NBs are built around crit and they took a dump on crit %. Even if you wear 7 light you're struggling to get over 40%. Of course this is hard if you're Stam focused because you lose all the necessary medium passives. You really need to wear about 4 medium at minimum.

My crit % sits at about 36% with 4 med 3 light.

I think some people believe this is how a NB works.

Cloak -> attack > cloak > attack etc etc, to get crits. As pointed out above this is drastically inefficient unless your goal is to run out of resources and die a miserable death.

Jman100582 wrote: »

Pretty crazy that people still think nb is the worse pvp class atm. The classes I see the most are magdks, harmony cros, magplars, and then stamblades. In that order. S2w bombing stamblade is still very much a thing and still very much viable. Caluurion ganking is insane right now. The class still has lots of damage, I get hit for 6-8k surprise attacks often enough and 10k+ spec bows while being in heavy armor and 30k+ hp. The class has damage. If you choose to go the dark cloak route with mirage all of a sudden you can also be a tank instead. Nb even has a burst heal that gives minor mending now, and a good burst heal at that. If your nb can’t survive without invis, that is on you for not building into aspects of the class

I still get killed by plenty of soul tethers this patch. On a damage build, with decent survivability. Lots of nbs talk about how the class is a former shadow of itself. Ofc it is, nbs easily use to be able to 3 tap pure tanks in pvp. Which was ridiculous, no class deserves that much damage. If you think nb is bad just because you can’t gank tanks anymore (by tanks I don’t mean the 40k hp stamden running full damage sets I mean the guy wearing iron blood and hist sap that does nothing but hold L2 and spam talons and chain) then honestly I don’t know what to tell you. You aren’t worth arguing with

Let's look at these examples.

8k surprise attack. Based on your stated specs, that means it crit. A stamblade cat gank will have about 100% crit damage, give or take. This includes all sources plus CP.

That means the original hit was around 4k. That's a fair attack even against a heavy armor build. That same gank probably has 17k pen on their CS.

It's also kinda low when compared to other spammables. On my magDK I've gotten hit with 10k whips from other DKs. That's because it's very easy to hit 8k damage+.

Likewise on my NB, the best I can get is 7k, and that requires stygian with heartland nirn weapons. My pen is awful and my tooltips mean nothing because I can't cut through armor.

It just isn't fair to compare classes built around flat damage and a class built around crit.

Now, here's the thing. I would trade in Caluurions any day of the week IF there was a viable alternative. Update 29, I wore stygian and heartland with sharp weapons and I had a specific success rate in combat.

Then the procs came back with a vengeance. That build could no longer compete against defensive proc sets and buffed defenses. So I had to start using Mechanical.

The issue with that is people who quit NBs during no proc came back hardcore and went all in on bombing. And it was stupid easy. The forums flooded with complaints. Ganking in MA still required a rotation but bombing was just dumb.

So then we got Update 32. MA was made unusable for NBs. I tried going back to stygian and heartland. Couldn't kill anyone because the flat damage isn't enough. I spent millions of gold trying different combos that would let me maintain my expected success rate. I didn't want to use Caluurions but nothing else world work. The closest I got was a knight slayer build, but it only worked on a small segment of enemies.

While I still don't like using Caluurions (because I hate procs in general), it's the only way to glass cannon fight the Big 3 classes. I also don't feel guilty about it because you literally just roll dodge and it misses. You get hit from behind, break free and roll or block. You just ignored or ate the damage. Most of us are running slippery anyway, so this should be even easier.

Jman100582

TheEndBringer wrote: »

You can't take away the one crit guarantee (when it works) unless you're prepared to buff flat damage. NBs are built around crit and they took a dump on crit %. Even if you wear 7 light you're struggling to get over 40%. Of course this is hard if you're Stam focused because you lose all the necessary medium passives. You really need to wear about 4 medium at minimum.

My crit % sits at about 36% with 4 med 3 light.

I think some people believe this is how a NB works.

Cloak -> attack > cloak > attack etc etc, to get crits. As pointed out above this is drastically inefficient unless your goal is to run out of resources and die a miserable death.

Jman100582 wrote: »

Pretty crazy that people still think nb is the worse pvp class atm. The classes I see the most are magdks, harmony cros, magplars, and then stamblades. In that order. S2w bombing stamblade is still very much a thing and still very much viable. Caluurion ganking is insane right now. The class still has lots of damage, I get hit for 6-8k surprise attacks often enough and 10k+ spec bows while being in heavy armor and 30k+ hp. The class has damage. If you choose to go the dark cloak route with mirage all of a sudden you can also be a tank instead. Nb even has a burst heal that gives minor mending now, and a good burst heal at that. If your nb can’t survive without invis, that is on you for not building into aspects of the class

I still get killed by plenty of soul tethers this patch. On a damage build, with decent survivability. Lots of nbs talk about how the class is a former shadow of itself. Ofc it is, nbs easily use to be able to 3 tap pure tanks in pvp. Which was ridiculous, no class deserves that much damage. If you think nb is bad just because you can’t gank tanks anymore (by tanks I don’t mean the 40k hp stamden running full damage sets I mean the guy wearing iron blood and hist sap that does nothing but hold L2 and spam talons and chain) then honestly I don’t know what to tell you. You aren’t worth arguing with

Let's look at these examples.

8k surprise attack. Based on your stated specs, that means it crit. A stamblade cat gank will have about 100% crit damage, give or take. This includes all sources plus CP.

That means the original hit was around 4k. That's a fair attack even against a heavy armor build. That same gank probably has 17k pen on their CS.

It's also kinda low when compared to other spammables. On my magDK I've gotten hit with 10k whips from other DKs. That's because it's very easy to hit 8k damage+.

Likewise on my NB, the best I can get is 7k, and that requires stygian with heartland nirn weapons. My pen is awful and my tooltips mean nothing because I can't cut through armor.

It just isn't fair to compare classes built around flat damage and a class built around crit.

Now, here's the thing. I would trade in Caluurions any day of the week IF there was a viable alternative. Update 29, I wore stygian and heartland with sharp weapons and I had a specific success rate in combat.

Then the procs came back with a vengeance. That build could no longer compete against defensive proc sets and buffed defenses. So I had to start using Mechanical.

The issue with that is people who quit NBs during no proc came back hardcore and went all in on bombing. And it was stupid easy. The forums flooded with complaints. Ganking in MA still required a rotation but bombing was just dumb.

So then we got Update 32. MA was made unusable for NBs. I tried going back to stygian and heartland. Couldn't kill anyone because the flat damage isn't enough. I spent millions of gold trying different combos that would let me maintain my expected success rate. I didn't want to use Caluurions but nothing else world work. The closest I got was a knight slayer build, but it only worked on a small segment of enemies.

While I still don't like using Caluurions (because I hate procs in general), it's the only way to glass cannon fight the Big 3 classes. I also don't feel guilty about it because you literally just roll dodge and it misses. You get hit from behind, break free and roll or block. You just ignored or ate the damage. Most of us are running slippery anyway, so this should be even easier.

Tbf molten whip and dk as a whole overperforms a lot. I’ve been hit for 16k whips against those full crit dmg magdk builds with their corrosive up. Also, heartland is a really weak offensive set. Especially when paired with nirn traits (I am assuming dw). Something like clever would give more damage by a fair margin

Not really bashing on gankers, I’m just not sure what nbs seem to want? I don’t think anybody should really be able to kill any healer or tank by themselves with how the game is currently balanced, at least not a good one. The game has always been balanced very poorly for those that want to go class cannon. Sets like pariah, daedric trickery, trial by fire, etc all provide tankiness to a point where high-dmg sets like clever, moon hunter, etc can’t break even against them. Which makes it so that if you’re on a full damage build vs someone wearing two damage sets in heavy armor or someone wearing a tank set with a damage set, they will basically be able to hit you as hard as you hit them but they are more tanky. That’s a balance issue that many classes have to deal with as a whole, not just nb

Nb is still the only class that can hit over 40% crit and still have reasonable offensive stats in other places (pen, weapon dmg) due to the minor savagery passive and pressure points. At this point I wouldn’t mind a crit chance slottable cp, most of my builds when built into being able to crit only hit around 30% chance now. It really does come down to much of the player base not wanting to die in pvp, which is why it seems like every patch people just get more and more health. It would be really nice if all of the offensive set bonuses from sets got a buff, including the 2-4 piece bonuses. Armor passives should also be looked at too, I would much rather medium be like pen/weapon damage/reduce all ability cost and then light be crit chance/crit damage/increase all resource recovery. That would be much more hybrid friendly anyway. And also changing all the max stam/mag bonuses on dmg sets such as briarheart, bsw, scathing mage etc to being pen or crit chance would be nice QOL. If almost everybody across the board in pvp needs dmg buffs (which for the most part they do) then starting at sets/universal passives is the way to go imo. Set balance has long been overlooked since mass hybridization anyway

ResidentContrarian

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TheEndBringer wrote: »

ResidentContrarian wrote: »

Not just cloak, invisibility as a whole is a bad mechanic in the game that needs to be looked at.

It certainly needs to cost more than sprinting, which applies to cloak as well if you have the right build esp. in CP.

Cloak absolutely costs more than sprinting...

Your build is not the only build in the game

KoIIegoIas

ResidentContrarian wrote: »

.

TheEndBringer wrote: »

ResidentContrarian wrote: »

Not just cloak, invisibility as a whole is a bad mechanic in the game that needs to be looked at.

It certainly needs to cost more than sprinting, which applies to cloak as well if you have the right build esp. in CP.

Cloak absolutely costs more than sprinting...

Your build is not the only build in the game

Cloak costs are 3780 magicka and lasts 3 seconds. Show us a build where you pay 3780 stamina for 3 seconds sprint.

silver1surfer69

Cloak is the most powerfull ability in the game, its arguable, yes and even with all the things that speak against it mentioned here in this thread this is still my oppinion. Pls name me an ability which is more powerfull then cloak if you think so. I think the named adjustements to it are very good and make sense and are most welcome. That being said, if you learn to use detection potions the right way, especially the timing a NB has almost no chance. Its very interesting to see that such a/the most powerfull counter (detec potion) that is in the game forever is still not very present in the mind of most palyers.

Sandman929

Nbs will cling to cloak and insult anyone who dares to speak against their preferred "playstyle" of instantly resetting any fight and attacking from invisibility while having the strongest single target offensive kit in the game.
It's never their advantage, it's your lack of "skills". If you would simply slot something specifically to deal with them and make several changes specifically to deal with them, you'd be fine...end sarcasm.

KoIIegoIas

silver1surfer69 wrote: »

Cloak is the most powerfull ability in the game, its arguable, yes and even with all the things that speak against it mentioned here in this thread this is still my oppinion. Pls name me an ability which is more powerfull then cloak if you think so. I think the named adjustements to it are very good and make sense and are most welcome. That being said, if you learn to use detection potions the right way, especially the timing a NB has almost no chance. Its very interesting to see that such a/the most powerfull counter (detec potion) that is in the game forever is still not very present in the mind of most palyers.

Streak for example is more powerful than Cloak, because you cant counter it. I dont wanna say anything against streak. I can totally life with it. Ofc you can use gapcloser, but you have covered your distance with streak, unless you are braindead and streak against a wall. Its also an AoE stun, wich can used offensive and defendive. Cloak can also be used offensive. Not only defensive obviously, but its a skill wich got the most counters in this game. You only talking about detect pots, is actually a disgrace.

olsborg

Cloak has countless counters...

Just to mention one, most magicka build players run flare because of the 10% dmg reduction, the secondary bonus is the area reveal.

KoIIegoIas

Sandman929 wrote: »

Nbs will cling to cloak and insult anyone who dares to speak against their preferred "playstyle" of instantly resetting any fight and attacking from invisibility while having the strongest single target offensive kit in the game.
It's never their advantage, it's your lack of "skills". If you would simply slot something specifically to deal with them and make several changes specifically to deal with them, you'd be fine...end sarcasm.

If it means for you to slot something specifically, is something you slot anyway like magelight, camohunter for crit, Caltrops for defile, spiked armor for resolve and the other dozens of skill witch people anyway use, then nobody in this universe can help you. rely on detect post is the last thing in this game you would need to counter cloak.

You must be a main DK who things combustion is balanced or Templar who things dark flare isnt viable anymore next patch. Or a zergling.

If that morph gets nerfed to the ground. I wouldnt care, because i use the heal morph. Im just here to have fun talking about unessecary stuff.

Sandman929

KoIIegoIas wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Nbs will cling to cloak and insult anyone who dares to speak against their preferred "playstyle" of instantly resetting any fight and attacking from invisibility while having the strongest single target offensive kit in the game.
It's never their advantage, it's your lack of "skills". If you would simply slot something specifically to deal with them and make several changes specifically to deal with them, you'd be fine...end sarcasm.

If it means for you to slot something specifically, is something you slot anyway like magelight, camohunter for crit, Caltrops for defile, spiked armor for resolve and the other dozens of skill witch people anyway use, then nobody in this universe can help you. rely on detect post is the last thing in this game you would need to counter cloak.

You must be a main DK who things combustion is balanced or Templar who things dark flare isnt viable anymore next patch. Or a zergling.

Like I said...it's always someone else's fault, not their advantage

Mayrael

Once again if counters to cloak are so useless than let's add same counters to damage shields, healing, roll dodge and streak/BoL (somehow), then cloak can be nerfed. You get nerfed cloak for "meaningless" counters. Do we have a deal?

jaws343

Mayrael wrote: »

Once again if counters to cloak are so useless than let's add same counters to damage shields, healing, roll dodge and streak/BoL (somehow), then cloak can be nerfed. You get nerfed cloak for "meaningless" counters. Do we have a deal?

Actually, yes. Let's add skills that you have to slot in order to counter shields. And if you don't slot them, you can't break the shield. Give up bar space to counter the skill of one class, like other classes have to do for NBs.

Szende

I dunno' guys, i play NB long time ago and encounter many other NB. In the majority of fights, Camouflaged Hunter solves the problem with their cloak. Since they buffed it, its quite easy to counter. Very often easy to predict their movement too. This cloak topic always gonna come up on every PTS circle, but never gonna make too much sense.

Mr_Stach

This back an forth is so ridiculous, is Cloak Strong? Yes. But Cloak is the only skill that has abilities that just make it useless. Imagine if there was an Ability that made it so you couldn't use a Damage Shield or Heal.

I don't get the want for a Cloak Nerf, If it were nerfed anymore, they might as well remove it.

If you think Cloak needs a Nerf but are also fine with Dk being an unstoppable terminator, I don't know what to tell you.

I've also seen the Idea of the Dodgeroll/Streak treatment where it gets more expensive the more you cast it in a small amount of time, If that were a change, I think they would need to make each cast more impactful, 2.5 seconds is pretty short for a skill that has tons of counters and now scales its cost. Maybe increase the duration or something.

Point is, you still need Cloak to be useful for NBs, otherwise there's no point to the skill. And don't tell me, "But PvE", in PvE you only need Cloak for Stealing or Murder, and not even there because that stuff is easy as hell. Cloak is a PvP Skill, it should be useful in PvP.

J18696

I would just be happy if cloak didn't make dots entirely useless when active but still didn't break cloak itself

Mayrael

jaws343 wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Once again if counters to cloak are so useless than let's add same counters to damage shields, healing, roll dodge and streak/BoL (somehow), then cloak can be nerfed. You get nerfed cloak for "meaningless" counters. Do we have a deal?

Actually, yes. Let's add skills that you have to slot in order to counter shields. And if you don't slot them, you can't break the shield. Give up bar space to counter the skill of one class, like other classes have to do for NBs.

I'd like to have skill that could break the shield with one hit - let's tie it to all AoE skills, ok? And I wan't a skill that will prevent people around me from using heals. I will definetly slot it.

You don't have to slot anything to break cloak. Every class has those skills on bars:
1. Templar? - Jabs
2. DK? Volatile, Taloons, Fiery Breath
3. Sorc? Streak
4. NB? .. Actually NBs have to slot special skill to reveal other NB's because NB's skills suck. Nobody slosts Mark Target because it's 2x worse than destro staff Weakness to Elements.
5. Necro? Blastbones, Death Scythe
6. Warden? Well this is the only class that have it harder than others, Scorch is bad at revealing NB's.

Can we make pls that AoE skills break any shield with one hit, cancel your last direct heal, and pull you back to your position before casting streak or dodge rolling? Because thats the impact of all mentioned above, YOU HAVE IT ON YOUR BAR ALREADY and you can cancel the cloak with it.

Revealing skills are another level of counter, they prevent NB's from USING cloak.

jaws343

Mayrael wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Once again if counters to cloak are so useless than let's add same counters to damage shields, healing, roll dodge and streak/BoL (somehow), then cloak can be nerfed. You get nerfed cloak for "meaningless" counters. Do we have a deal?

Actually, yes. Let's add skills that you have to slot in order to counter shields. And if you don't slot them, you can't break the shield. Give up bar space to counter the skill of one class, like other classes have to do for NBs.

I'd like to have skill that could break the shield with one hit - let's tie it to all AoE skills, ok? And I wan't a skill that will prevent people around me from using heals. I will definetly slot it.

You don't have to slot anything to break cloak. Every class has those skills on bars:
1. Templar? - Jabs
2. DK? Volatile, Taloons, Fiery Breath
3. Sorc? Streak
4. NB? .. Actually NBs have to slot special skill to reveal other NB's because NB's skills suck. Nobody slosts Mark Target because it's 2x worse than destro staff Weakness to Elements.
5. Necro? Blastbones, Death Scythe
6. Warden? Well this is the only class that have it harder than others, Scorch is bad at revealing NB's.

Can we make pls that AoE skills break any shield with one hit, cancel your last direct heal, and pull you back to your position before casting streak or dodge rolling? Because thats the impact of all mentioned above, YOU HAVE IT ON YOUR BAR ALREADY and you can cancel the cloak with it.

Revealing skills are another level of counter, they prevent NB's from USING cloak.

Jabs - requires them to be in and remain in melee range, anything outside of that and jabs is entirely useless. Also requires knowing exactly where they are, while they are invisible...

Volatile, Tallons, Firey breath - Same issues as Jabs

Streak - Requires knowing exactly were they are, while they are invisible. Streak's cone is incredibly unreliable. Also, more likely to put you behind the nightblade if you somehow do get lucky and streak through them, which means they instantly break free and are invisible again before you can even turn around to see them

Warden and NB - Yeah, they have nothing effective either

Necro - BB requires a target, hard to target something who is invisible, Death Scythe is melee, also requires knowing where they are, while invisible.

These effective means that classes have are not really effective. Whenever anyone uses one of these to pull a NB from stealth, it is entirely incidental outside of the top like 5% of players.

You know what I can do on my Bowblade, sit at range of my light attacks and bow skills, and only leave stealth to attack, back into stealth to re-position, time cloak to land a snipe crit or a scourge crit, back into stealth to re-position. Not a single skill you listed is going to be effective at removing me from stealth or even locating me a few seconds after I attack.