Jaraal wrote: »

The decision has already been made. They are fixing the bugs so AWA can go live.

I'm still waiting for the Q&A announced by @ZOS_Kevin.

Wolfpaw wrote: »

Most casual non forum visiting players that make up the majority will not care, know til after, &/or welcome account wide achievements.

I wonder who's more important to ZOS: Casual once-paying players or the 'hard-core' community paying regulary for ESO plus etc.?

Wolfpaw wrote: »

Every in-game player I know is really looking forward to this

As for me, it's completely opposite. I don't know any in-game-player from whom I'd know he's happy with loosing the details about which char got which achievement.
EDIT: It's also a matter not only what but how you ask. If you ask "do you want/would you like ...?" it implicites "in addition" and not taking away or deleting anything. If you ask "would you like ... instead of" many people will give a different answer, so Discords might not have been dancing so much, if the announcement would have been "we're implementing AwA and cutting off character-based achievement progress".

Wolfpaw wrote: »

Maybe an opt out settings option will be available in a later update.

In my opinion it should be opt-in (or opt-out for character-based achievements --> default is character-based achievements on) and this should be available from the start as long as AwA involves data to be lost/deleted. But tbh, I didn't recognize any statement if the detail data regarding "non-first" chars completing achievements will be really deleted or just not displayed.

Saieden wrote: »

No. You cannot "opt out" of deleting data. You cannot "opt out" of 3-12 months or more of your character's earned achievements never having been recorded in the first place.

I think this is THE essential point in this whole discussion!
Developers may implement a new feature or not, change it or not, maybe leave it buggy for years when it comes to presentation, this can all be corrected, fixed, patched, whatever. But changing the game in a way players loose (in their eyes) valuable data irreversibly is a no-go!

If ZOS "only" implements AwA - ok! Whoever wants it may use it. But keep your hands from the deleting anything players got used to, if you can't bring it back 100%!

Hey guys, look at me! I scored a three pointer! Oh...

Mephit wrote: »

Obviously there are plenty of exceptions... but is it possible this is largely a PC v Console difference?

Are PC players more in favour of player level achievements?

Console more in favour of Account wide?

I'll probably get shot down but just wondering out loud...

You know, this is a good question and may be part of this.

First because console players can't use the add-ons we have now, second because (I've heard) the demand to see titles is more toxic in console end game due to a lack of other external data, and third (I've heard) because it's harder to complete or repeat difficult content on console due to lack of add-ons like Dressing Room, plus less available time to play overall due to not having all the time- saving QoL add-ons.

I know some people on PC don't play with add-ons but I suspect most of them aren't end gamers. And I guess this from my own experience raiding where certain mods, like the ones that share ulti, are often required.

I don't think this is the only divide... there's another one between longtime players who embraced the current system and newer ones who more recently came from other games and see the current system as a big "grind"... but you raise a good question.

matterandstuff wrote: »

Wolfpaw wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Arthtur wrote: »

And im not gonna lie, Im rly curious to know what will u do to get all your player back after adding... "this".

I wonder if they really don't realize just how many players will leave over this.

I imagine they do, and it's probably not many, & those that do leave some will definitely be back.

Most casual non forum visiting players that make up the majority will not care, know til after, &/or welcome account wide achievements. Many of us that follow every pts/forums also welcome this change that has been requested for years. Email survey probably has also help push this decision.

Every in-game player I know is really looking forward to this, discords were dancing with this news

Maybe an opt out settings option will be available in a later update.

This isn't just "oh ZOS did something annoying" like, say, for people who opposed the arena weapons changes.

The implementation of this in such a way as to destroy character progress data is completely gamebreaking for a hugely common playstyle among the ESO playerbase - and if they destroy the character data, it's something which can't be undone in any later update.

That's mass-exodus material in a way ESO has never seen - they've just never done anything that even close to negatively affected gameplay for as many players to such a severe extent in the entire history of the game.

I'm reserving judgement until we see what the fixes are that ZOS makes over the coming month, and how they answer (or not) our questions in the Q & A about their ability to reconstitute character logs / tracking in a future update.

Either way, I think predictions of a mass exodus are probably a bit overstated. This update disproportionately affects veteran players, but these are also the very players who have the most sunk costs to be drawing them back to the game. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

Wolfpaw wrote:

I imagine they do, and it's probably not many, & those that do leave some will definitely be back.
Most casual non forum visiting players that make up the majority will not care, know til after, &/or welcome account wide achievements. Many of us that follow every pts/forums also welcome this change that has been requested for years. Email survey probably has also help push this decision.
Every in-game player I know is really looking forward to this, discords were dancing with this news
Maybe an opt out settings option will be available in a later update.

My experience in game and on discord has been quite different. I suppose it depends on the circles you move in and whether or not you are in the presence of people inclined to be on the same train of thought as you are- we cannot judge what the entire community wants on what independent social circles speak of, but we can get some overall ideas.

In game, I meet and speak to people daily who are rushing to complete content- whether that be getting the music box in Solitude because they fear the quest will be irreparably broken, or because they wish to experience the game the way they want to on a particular character that holds meaning to them before the opportunity to do so is permanently taken from them.

There is a kind of tension moving through groups of people in game who would like to keep their character data that no update before this, no matter how controversial, has caused. It isn't just resistance to change, it's fear- fear of loss, fear for the future of the game and all they have created within it. Many people used the achievement system as far more than just a means to track data, but as a means to track who their characters are as if they were authoring their story through what actions they have chosen to give them, and what actions they have not as a player. The achievement system held the record of those choices, and suddenly, it is being wiped away.

Worse, one characters achievements are overwriting another, creating immense pressure to choose which character they'll log into first after the update...or none at all.

Of course many of them have a means beyond the game and the achievement system to track these things, through their independently written stories and the roleplays they have kept record of (though some are not roleplayers and are writing stories for their own enjoyment) but that doesn't change the fact that a general feeling of heartsickness is spreading through certain groups- either spurring them to rush to do things in a way they would not have before, because they enjoyed taking their time...or causing them to turn away from ESO until they know what will become of the game they love, taking their characters and their ideas with them. They liked the ability to track their characters independent progress, and felt it was a part of who they had made them, because they used the system as a tool to facilitate development.

In addition to that, quite a few people who create stories who wanted to be able to see AWA for other, more mechanical and tool-like purposes are dismayed that it is coming at the cost of individual character tracking. They thought that the two could exist side by side...and it doesn't. Some of these people didn't realize that until it was explained to them, so they're reaction is "What the heck ZOS?!"

Saieden wrote:

Firstly, it's simply bias to believe that all players that don't read the notes or forums "don't care". These two things are completely independent of one another.

I will however address a very important factor regarding the "don't care" demographic: they don't care about the game. Huge insight, I know, but it really is a big deal, because this population is transitory; they play for a while, have fun but don't really "get into it" enough to stay for the long haul. This is a population of players could easily be replaced entirely in a year. Why is this important? Because it is thanks to the players that "do care" that they stay around long enough for that them to replace themselves, and more importantly, rope them from the "don't care" population into the "do care" population.

When you remove a core feature that is distinctly catered to players that "do care" about something in the game, in this case individual character progression, you are literally ripping out a fat chunk of players that, whether they realize it or not, are actively fueling the game's player retention rate aka the single most important success factor for an MMO. Will the game die overnight because if this goes live unchanged? Hell no, but I guarantee 6-12 months from now, the player-base landscape will look very different.

Exactly. I agree wholeheartedly.

I think I'm going to delve into a personal bit of experience here again in the hopes that the DEV's will see it and realize what effect having independent character tracking can have on a new player.

This was my experience when I first played ESO. I came from another game run by another company notorious for taking good games and driving them into the ground with P2W and by making horrible changes that minimized enjoying the process of actually playing in favor of funneling players towards the heavily P2W end game. Around the time when I saw someone livestreaming ESO and noticed that ZOS was running a free weekend, that game had recently made some godawful changes that killed character progression by nerfing the amount of gold and progress a character could make in less hard core content in favor of shoving them towards the end game where they had piled all the profit. The problem with this was...it meant no one could actually reach the end game any more due to the absence of gold and materials to upgrade their weapons...unless they payed their way there through the cash shop.

Aesthetically in terms of costume, character creation, and the world, and story-wise, I loved the game, along with its fluid combat system (I still miss these aspects as time as ESO's combat system, in my eyes, isn't really comparable) but it had so little to offer in terms of actual character development, quests, or reasons to return to old areas (especially after the gold nerf- all there was was pointless, grindy dailies) that I had grown frustrated by the time this horrible update had rolled out. The same week that terrible update came- I played ESO for the first time.

I didn't start out caring about ESO, and didn't think for a single minute when I downloaded it that I would ever continue to play it beyond the time allotted to me on the free weekend. I'd never played a TES game, and other than watching someone else play oblivion when I was younger, didn't really have exposure to the series other than knowing of it. I just wanted to try it for a lark.

When I finally got in game and began working with the character creator for the first time, aesthetically it was so different from the type of MMO I was used to playing that I was actually turned off by it at first. Which is hilarious to me, because now I'm the biggest fan of male bosmers, altmers, and dunmers. I absolutely adore them and think that the TES series and its original take on these fantasy races is gorgeous.

Either way- I spent about....I would say, easily three hours in the character creator tweaking a male bosmer nightblade who is the "main" on my account to this day. By the time I was done with him I really liked him (especially since I could give him antlers/daedric horns) but still had no plans to purchase the game.

I started playing. And right there in the tutorial for Vvardenfell (which was offered as the part of incentive for purchase and was free to play for that weekend at the time) my eyes were opened to how different this game was. It had a system for lockpicking- I'd never seen that before even in the single player RPG's I'd played, let alone an MMO. It had a system for theft which reminded me of the classic RPG's I'd played as a kid.

Instantly, I knew who my character was. He was going to be a theif...and I was going to fall in love with a whole new mmo. I just didn't know it yet.

On top of all these exciting new systems I'd never seen in an mmo before...I could actually track independent character progress through the games achievement system. Story -mattered- here. Your character and the choices they made -mattered-. It wasn't just about the endless process of funneling every new character you had through the story until they reached the end game. The story and the character you were playing was the game. and the achievement system helped you focus on that, gave you additional goals for your character to pursue.

The revelation that, here was a game, that offered me an achievement system and goals that, though it offered me end game, did not pressure me to pursue it, was astoundingly different from every single game I'd ever played. Fishing was a goal, going out and doing amusingly silly things like getting my clothes stolen by a guard was a goal. I found as I made more characters again and again that I wanted to repeat these goals. Not because I wanted the achievement badge that came at the end...but because this content, and the ability to track its progression, was fun to me. Making different choices during different quests was important to me- obtaining achievements, or NOT obtaining them, to reflect a characters personality, was important to me as a player.

For the first time, I'd played a game that treated my character as a character with a story of its own, rather than just a tool to reach some kind of end game. Exploration was encouraged, returning to old areas was supported, there was always something left to do even if I'd finished the quests in an area because the achievement system offered an additional set of goals for each character to pursue if I so chose. I never felt I had to complete the achievements. I did it because I wanted to and because it assisted character development.

The achievement system and the fun little exploration goals- even the goals some consider to be grindy or tedious, was part of what made me care about ESO because having that independent progression that allowed you to develop a character as a character rather than just regarding it as an endgame tool.

(This isn't to say I think all endgamers think of their characters as tools- I know some do not, and have stories for them. I am strictly speaking about how different games handle characters. I am also not saying end game is bad- it isn't. But I came from a game with a very toxic end game focus by both the developers and the people playing, and ESO was so, so different in contrast. In the other game I played, the only game WAS end game. In eso...there is so much more, and I never knew that was possible in an mmo.)

This feeling is what has kept me pre-ordering new expansions and purchasing character slots, because I knew that I could repeat the kind of content I love. This is a huge part of what made me care, it is a part of what am paying for, and what I have spent money and time on is being taken away without independent character tracking.

Now, I feel I am almost being... pushed away from the content I enjoy because the developers are assuming I do not want to repeat it due to the fact that some people want AWA so that they never have to touch the content again. But not all of us hate it or see it as a grind. That's why AWA needs to exist along side independent tracking.

I just want to touch upon something else here again: so many people have said things along the lines of "play ESO for the GAME its not about the achievements, you do know you can still play without them right? If you need achievements then you don't really care about the game!" so many times. Sure I can. But again, It isn't about the achievement badge itself- I could care less about the badge I don't need a reward. It's about the ability to independently track things on a character that I would like to be able to repeat, to show what they have and have not done, as a reflection of character development throughout the story. I love ESO's stories and quests, and I want to continue tracking them on each of my characters.

I am playing for the game. The ability to independently track characters is part of the game, and it is part of what enticed me to buy the game when I started playing, because I could keep a record of all those elaborate stories I was getting lost in, and the amazing world that had come to enchant me.

To me, the achievements themselves are quests- especially things like fishing, for example. I really would not mind if the master angler badge and title was account wide, as long as I could still track fishing goals for my characters and have dates of completion recorded. The badge as a reward isn't as important to me as having the "quest" of fishing is. That's just a small example of one type of achievement I regard this way. (I know not everyone feels that way, and I respect that. This is just how I feel.)

I also firmly feel that no one has the right to tell someone what they care about or don't care about based on their playstyle. I can say without a doubt that I am here fighting to have a better version of AWA along side independent character tracking because I care quite deeply about what becomes of ESO, its stories, and the characters that will take us through those stories.

I don't think people who want AWA are playing the wrong way either, or that they care about the game any less. I just think they care in a different way than I do and that's all right.

In any case, I know I'm repeating myself slightly in this post. I apologize for it's length. But I know I'm not the only one that was hooked on ESO due to loving the fact that you could individually track characters.

I wont stop playing the game. But it will irrevocably change how I play the game, and possibly even how much time I spend playing it and what I do while I play unless some kind of independent tracking is implemented along side AWA.

SilverBride wrote: »

...It's been a few years since I've played WoW but the way they did AWA left the individual character's progress intact. For example if one character completed Dungeon A, the account got credit for it. But Dungeon A remained greyed out for every character that hadn't completed it themselves until they did. This way the players who enjoy earning these on each individual character still could and didn't lose the ability to track their progress. ...

this type of thing is what i was kind of expecting them to do with account wide achievements as that would have been easier to add a menu to the collection menu to track account stuff, instead of completely changing the character achievement menu into this mish-mosh of half-account half-character nothing-works rendition

Ugh_Tech wrote: »

It's also a matter not only what but how you ask. If you ask "do you want/would you like ...?" it implicites "in addition" and not taking away or deleting anything. If you ask "would you like ... instead of" many people will give a different answer, so Discords might not have been dancing so much, if the announcement would have been "we're implementing AwA and cutting off character-based achievement progress".

And if it doesn't fit in a sound byte, most people won't hear it or pay attention or try to understand.

Wolfpaw wrote: »

This AWA system is very appealing as the lines that divide my toons begin to disappear.

This AWA system is very appealing devastating as the lines that divide my toons begin to disappear.

Meanwhile, it looks like another working week will pass without a single meaningful communication on this massive system change. Unbelievable.

ArchangelIsraphel wrote: »

...Just because you have a badge saying you did it on an account wide level when you did it on an alt doesn't actually mean anything is complete on your main...

...I just don't get why people think an account wide badge means they did something on another character they didn't really do anything on.

Because that is what is being reported. The Bard's College achievement for the music box and the Precursor achievement for the target dummy are both showing as completed and alts who haven't already done them are now unable to. Who knows what others are also now locked from all future characters.

I rolled my first alt in a few years and only did so after my other 3 had completed every quest and map objective in every zone. I was really looking forward to working my way through the whole story on a new character and having a couple of years of exploring and revisiting old familiar lands and quests again. This is what I love and this is how I play.

I see no reason why this has to be taken away. Give the titles and dyes and whatever else players are wanting AWA for but leave individual character tracking intact.

ArchangelIsraphel wrote: »

That wasn't what my post was referring to at all, I think you misread me. I was referring to why people who want AWA think that doing something on one character means they did it on another just because an account wide badge says they did it once. Just because they did greymoor on one character, doesn't mean the story is complete on another, even if they have an account wide badge. I'm trying to point out that the logic that an account wide badge = completion on all characters other than the one they did it on is flawed for story quests, so we should retain individual tracking for it because it has to be redone anyway.

I'm totally aware of the broken quests, I'm purely referring to how some people who want AWA seem to think, not to the fact that some quests are broken and cannot be redone.

I think I did misread and I completely agree with you. I also don't understand why what one character does should mean another also did it. When someone earns a college degree all their siblings aren't all automatically awarded the same degree. It just doesn't make any logical sense.

But my reply still stands as a major concern that needs to be resolved.

[Edited for clarity]

fall0athboy wrote: »

So I can't exactly find anything that answers this:

Has it been said anywhere about how this is going to work with stickerbook and antiquity knowledge?

as far as im aware, gear collection and antiquities are 2 completely separate things unrelated to achievements

you dont need achievements to collect gear, and antiquities themselves are already account wide, you just need your individual characters to get the skill lines ranked up to be able to do the scry and dig themselves

Jaraal wrote: »

ArchangelIsraphel wrote: »

To me, the account wide badge means you did it once on one character, even on a player level. It completes nothing on another, just makes the experience...well, more hollow without the ability to track independent progress.

Ironically, we will now be able to get achievements while completing them on zero characters. You can have one toon do the intro, a couple others do different legs of the story, and a completely different character finish it off. So now you will have one achievement, zero character completions, and zero opportunities to do it again.


Really, ZOS? Is this how far the game has fallen?

Not only that, but you can do the whole achievement on one character, then delete that character, and the achievement is still held by all your other characters who may never have even encountered it.

And yes, that is how far the game has fallen. Perhaps it's no wonder after all that nobody at ZOS is talking to us about it.