The Gold Road Chapter – which includes the Scribing system – and Update 42 is now available to test on the PTS! You can read the latest patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/656454/
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why i'm holding off on renewing my ESO+ subscription (nRND)
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Kwoung✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »Those rewards are for helping with people with a dungeon they need and you are available to do, rather than just for doing a dungeon you feel like doing. People pay real money for those dungeons and their need to be able to do them outweights your desire to get easy rewards
They do have help, from other players who also paid real money for said dungeons. ESO+ members for the craft bag are not always in the same mindset as DLC thrill seekers.
I will agree. I don't really buy into being forced to do something I do not enjoy, so someone else can do something they want to. I am not a part of ZOS's "toolbox" to use as a fix for a broken or ill thought out system, I am a paying customer. If customers have issues with queues, the number of tanks or healers, etc... it is on ZOS to fix it, without using me to do so.
If all dungeons were created mostly equal, this would not be a problem. But someone at ZOS decided that DLC dungeons need to be longer, harder, contain more annoying (and sometime ridiculous) mechanics than base game dungeons, yet offer the same rewards as their easier counterparts, and created the issue for themselves and us. Simply put, if another player wants to run some DLC dungeon for gear or whatever, that isn't my problem... and should in no way affect me. They could add extra rewards for joining that guy, which would motivate many to help, or any number of other things could be done.Edited by Kwoung on December 12, 2021 10:18AM8 -
Bobby_V_Rockit✭✭✭✭✭
✭Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »Those rewards are for helping with people with a dungeon they need and you are available to do, rather than just for doing a dungeon you feel like doing. People pay real money for those dungeons and their need to be able to do them outweights your desire to get easy rewards
They do have help, from other players who also paid real money for said dungeons. ESO+ members for the craft bag are not always in the same mindset as DLC thrill seekers.
I will agree. I don't really buy into being forced to do something I do not enjoy, so someone else can do something they want to. I am not a part of ZOS's "toolbox" to use as a fix for a broken or ill thought out system, I am a paying customer. If customers have issues with queues, the number of tanks or healers, etc... it is on ZOS to fix it, without using me to do so.
If all dungeons were created mostly equal, this would not be a problem. But someone at ZOS decided that DLC dungeons need to be longer, harder, contain more annoying (and sometime ridiculous) mechanics than base game dungeons, yet offer the same rewards as their easier counterparts, and created the issue for themselves and us. Simply put, if another player wants to run some DLC dungeon for gear or whatever, that isn't my problem... and should in no way affect me. They could add extra rewards for joining that guy, which would motivate many to help, or any number of other things could be done.
Exactly this ^0 -
etchedpixels✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Except this is not the case. I see people rushing to the boss and asking for "XYZ" weapons daily.etchedpixels wrote: »Collections is a bit different - if you are a good player you can solo a lot of the base dungeons you want to fill the collections up from. If a couple of high dps folks walk in through the door and crash arx with ring of the wild hunt on ten times it doesn't hurt anyone else.
But there are far less of them than there would be, and the ones who are really fast are just soloing it (actually the ones who are fast have already finished the stickerbook).This is exactly why I farm them in pugs for armor for collection and for crystals. I need both. But people whos goal is collecting armor and speed running to the end is the same as people collecting transmute crystals. The net effect is the same to the rest of the party.
The sticker book side is bounded. Once you've got all the sets for a dungeon there is no reason to ever run it for gear again. Once you've got 1000 transmutes you'll spend them and need to run dungeons again.
Not at all irrelevant. If people could amass transmute crystals through everyday content and have thousands sitting in the bank like crafting items, then you'd have less people doing focus runs to obtain transmute crystals. The artificial limit on transmute crystals has an impact on the amount of fake tanks and rushing DPS that queue for a random.etchedpixels wrote: »The crystal crap is btw irrelevant - you can turn crystals into gear for 25 and get 25 back if you know a full set. Fixing that would reduce the hoarding ability but just make the farming worse.
As I said in the text you quoted you can already just turn crystals into items and put them in the bank, then turn them back later. Everyone I know does this and keeps a load in the mail unopened. If you are trying to some experimental builds you can burn through hundreds of crystals pretty fast.
In other words the "crystal cap" doesn't really exist except for new players who don't know the ropes. Many players have thousands of crystals stashed in items that cost 25 to make 25 to break. Some people put them in the bank, some people put them in boxes, some people even wear the resulting gear on their crafting alts to store it.
Too many toons not enough time0 -
etchedpixels✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Specific to FG1, ZOS should decide how they want that dungeon to be run. Either eliminate the short cut, or put a ramp up out of the water to the Dreugh King's arena area. If they like the short cut, possibly allow a short cut before the first mini-boss to expedite arrival at the Dreugh King.
We timed it - at least for non argonians if your group DPS is high enough it's faster to just run and nuke than swim and climb the rocks.
Too many toons not enough time2 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭. They could add extra rewards for joining that guy, which would motivate many to help, or any number of other things could be done.
That's exactly what they did. It's called the Random Daily bonus.
They aren't forcing anyone to do this either. The rewards for doing the randoms are able to acquired without doing the random.Edited by spartaxoxo on December 12, 2021 6:24PM1 -
Parasaurolophus✭✭✭✭✭
✭Again, XP and Crystals farming is optional. Yes, this is the most profitable way and the problem is in this, and not in the fact that it is unnecessary to farm with dlc dungeons included.PC/EU0 -
Kwoung✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: ». They could add extra rewards for joining that guy, which would motivate many to help, or any number of other things could be done.
That's exactly what they did. It's called the Random Daily bonus.
They aren't forcing anyone to do this either. The rewards for doing the randoms are able to acquired without doing the random.
If that is the case, then they marketed it 100% wrong and set bad expectations. The RND description says "Completing a Random Normal Dungeon or Random Vet Dungeon will give you bonus rewards once a day". This leads me to believe it is a bonus for "me" for engaging in that content. Had it been called a "Daily Dungeon Queue Helper" with a description along the lines of "Joining the daily queue to help another player complete a specific dungeon they queued for, will give you bonus rewards once per day", it would be a completely different story. So if what you say is true, and it probably is, ZOS is being very misleading about it, and "using" me to fix a poorly designed / marketed "feature".
They could even highlight the specific queues showing players waiting for help, allowing me to pick which one I am willing to help with, as I may also want to target or prefer a specific dungeon, or more to the point... avoid the ones I really hate or don't have time for. That would actually motivate me to queue, as some of the reasons I don't ever... is I don't want to risk ending up in one I dislike, I don't really need the transmutes or XP, and I am not the type of person that will end up in an undesirable dungeon and simply bail upon arrival. As I feel that is rude to others, would make me feel guilty, and somewhat ruin my day. Basically the current method is a lose/lose situation for me most of the time unless I randomly get some dungeon I may actually want to be in. Which is a remote chance being a ESO+ subscriber as well as owning a bunch of the DLC's. So, the simple solution is for me to just not random queue at all.
If however, I got to choose where I want to help, and get a bit of a XP/Transmute bonus out of doing so, I would be a lot more motivated to jump in to the ring (queue) and help someone out on occasion. There are plenty of times I am standing around wondering what to do, and this would be an option done correctly. but as it sits now... not with a 10' pole.Edited by Kwoung on December 12, 2021 6:58PM2 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭If that is the case, then they marketed it 100% wrong and set bad expectations<snipped for brevity>
I think the reason they marketed it the way they did is because occasionally nobody needs help, in which case they'll just toss 4 people into a random dungeon. I believe when that happens it weighs more heavily toward base game dungeons as the only time I have found nobody needed it was 100% of the time in base games. But I didn't do rigorous testing on that.
Basically, Random Normal is agreeing to be paid to do a dungeon that ZOS picks for you. And ZOS first tries to match you with people who need help.
They don't want people picking because most people would choose not to do DLC dungeons. And they need people in those dungeons so people who want to do them are able to do them.
So they pay you to help them.
I do agree however it could be explained better so people understand this is why they are getting such nice rewards. Maybe people would have better expectations if they to understood why they don't get to choose.Edited by spartaxoxo on December 12, 2021 7:13PM0 -
Kwoung✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »I do agree however it could be explained better so people understand this is why they are getting such nice rewards. Maybe people would have better expectations if they to understood why they don't get to choose.
Yeah, it feels a bit underhanded and I am quite certain a considerably better system could be implemented that would result in a win/win scenario for most, bring folks like me who currently avoid it like the plague into the fold and allow folks to choose their options, so they feel good about engaging in the content, not just another part of the daily grind. Doing so could separate those looking to actually run dungeons, from those simply after the daily rewards, which would alleviate most of the current issues with the system.
Even something as simple as choose 3 or more dungeons to queue for and you get one of those. The community would immediately pick 3 that would be considered the "dailies"... and speed runs, fake roles and everything else would not only be okay there, it would be expected. Those who actually enjoy dungeons, enjoy helping others, want an adventure or simply need something from a particular dungeon, would choose a different three, and be able to expect their random groupmates are there to actually help each other in that dungeon.
This would not only be a better way to help folks, it would lead towards a great many new in-game friendships being cultivated and a greater sense of community, as your "random group", now has something in common with the rest of the group upon arrival.
Edit: I have made no secret of my feeling about dungeons in this game. That however is because of how they are implemented here. They are not currently a grand adventure to embark on with others (unless done with all friends), they are simply a grind towards a goal and not implemented in a way to make them fun to do here. I have normally "lived" in dungeons in every other game I have played and no one ever had to "bribe" me to go have fun in one.
Edited by Kwoung on December 12, 2021 7:54PM1 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Even something as simple as choose 3 dungeons to queue for and you get one of those.
Players of every game will always choose the path of least resistance to get their rewards. That's why you don't see anyone ever complaining about they can't get the crystal reward by only queueung the DLC dungeons. Even people who enjoy DLC dungeons will realize that the get their crystals faster from fungal grotto and will instead do that.
Speaking of FG, it's by far the easiest dungeon in the game. And you know which dungeon nearly everyone gets their event ticket from when allowed to get it from every dungeon from the Undaunted event? Fungal Grotto. So much so they put in joking dialogue about it in the event quest for the Undaunted Celebration.
In order to get players to take the longer path, you have to incentivize them to do it. And paying people transmute crystals to do them is clearly an effective incentive.
People will always pick the easiest dungeons to get rewards. But the dungeons people actually need the most help with are the harder ones. Therefore letting people pick means that people who are in the most need of help won't get it.
Therefore a reward for helping people can't allow people pick, and instead must be based on what is needed.
Edited by spartaxoxo on December 12, 2021 7:54PM1 -
karekiz✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The solution has always been locked Veteran random with requirements to pass. Its just nobody wants to implement them0 -
Kwoung✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »Even something as simple as choose 3 dungeons to queue for and you get one of those.
Players of every game will always choose the path of least resistance to get their rewards. That's why you don't see anyone ever complaining about they can't get the crystal reward by only queueung the DLC dungeons. Even people who enjoy DLC dungeons will realize that the get their crystals faster from fungal grotto and will instead do that.
Speaking of FG, it's by far the easiest dungeon in the game. And you know which dungeon nearly everyone gets their event ticket from when allowed to get it from every dungeon from the Undaunted event? Fungal Grotto. So much so they put in joking dialogue about it in the event quest for the Undaunted Celebration.
In order to get players to take the longer path, you have to incentivize them to do it. And paying people transmute crystals to do them is clearly an effective incentive.
People will always pick the easiest dungeons to get rewards. But the dungeons people actually need the most help with are the harder ones. Therefore letting people pick means that people who are in the most need of help won't get it.
Therefore a reward for helping people can't allow people pick, and instead must be based on what is needed.
Your entire response was about simply earning rewards and taking the path of least resistance, assuming all players care about is their daily rewards and bribing them into content. I think the devs look at it a lot like you do as well.
I however, am mostly incentivized by having fun, grouping with like minded players after similar goals as myself. I log in to have fun, not to grind out some daily rewards and call it a day, because that burns me out and sucks all the fun out of the game. It is first and foremost a game, not a job.2 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »Even something as simple as choose 3 dungeons to queue for and you get one of those.
Players of every game will always choose the path of least resistance to get their rewards. That's why you don't see anyone ever complaining about they can't get the crystal reward by only queueung the DLC dungeons. Even people who enjoy DLC dungeons will realize that the get their crystals faster from fungal grotto and will instead do that.
Speaking of FG, it's by far the easiest dungeon in the game. And you know which dungeon nearly everyone gets their event ticket from when allowed to get it from every dungeon from the Undaunted event? Fungal Grotto. So much so they put in joking dialogue about it in the event quest for the Undaunted Celebration.
In order to get players to take the longer path, you have to incentivize them to do it. And paying people transmute crystals to do them is clearly an effective incentive.
People will always pick the easiest dungeons to get rewards. But the dungeons people actually need the most help with are the harder ones. Therefore letting people pick means that people who are in the most need of help won't get it.
Therefore a reward for helping people can't allow people pick, and instead must be based on what is needed.
Your entire response was about simply earning rewards and taking the path of least resistance, assuming all players care about is their daily rewards and bribing them into content. I think the devs look at it a lot like you do as well.
I however, am mostly incentivized by having fun, grouping with like minded players after similar goals as myself. I log in to have fun, not to grind out some daily rewards and call it a day, because that burns me out and sucks all the fun out of the game. It is first and foremost a game, not a job.
If you don't care about the rewards you can already queue for any dungeon grouping you want and just enjoy doing dungeons with others. The sole difference between picking what you want and letting ZOS pick is the rewards, for the person doing the queueing.Edited by spartaxoxo on December 12, 2021 8:28PM0 -
Kwoung✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »Even something as simple as choose 3 dungeons to queue for and you get one of those.
Players of every game will always choose the path of least resistance to get their rewards. That's why you don't see anyone ever complaining about they can't get the crystal reward by only queueung the DLC dungeons. Even people who enjoy DLC dungeons will realize that the get their crystals faster from fungal grotto and will instead do that.
Speaking of FG, it's by far the easiest dungeon in the game. And you know which dungeon nearly everyone gets their event ticket from when allowed to get it from every dungeon from the Undaunted event? Fungal Grotto. So much so they put in joking dialogue about it in the event quest for the Undaunted Celebration.
In order to get players to take the longer path, you have to incentivize them to do it. And paying people transmute crystals to do them is clearly an effective incentive.
People will always pick the easiest dungeons to get rewards. But the dungeons people actually need the most help with are the harder ones. Therefore letting people pick means that people who are in the most need of help won't get it.
Therefore a reward for helping people can't allow people pick, and instead must be based on what is needed.
Your entire response was about simply earning rewards and taking the path of least resistance, assuming all players care about is their daily rewards and bribing them into content. I think the devs look at it a lot like you do as well.
I however, am mostly incentivized by having fun, grouping with like minded players after similar goals as myself. I log in to have fun, not to grind out some daily rewards and call it a day, because that burns me out and sucks all the fun out of the game. It is first and foremost a game, not a job.
If you don't care about the rewards you can already queue for any dungeon grouping you want and just enjoy doing dungeons with others. The sole difference between picking what you want and letting ZOS pick is the rewards, for the person doing the queueing.
You ignored the part where I said grouping with like minded players looking to achieve similar goals. Yes I can queue for any dungeon, and under the current system it will end up being 3 other players, all there for different reasons, most of which will conflict, not synergize, with my own. It is not a fun system and makes dungeons considerably less fun than they could be.2 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »Even something as simple as choose 3 dungeons to queue for and you get one of those.
Players of every game will always choose the path of least resistance to get their rewards. That's why you don't see anyone ever complaining about they can't get the crystal reward by only queueung the DLC dungeons. Even people who enjoy DLC dungeons will realize that the get their crystals faster from fungal grotto and will instead do that.
Speaking of FG, it's by far the easiest dungeon in the game. And you know which dungeon nearly everyone gets their event ticket from when allowed to get it from every dungeon from the Undaunted event? Fungal Grotto. So much so they put in joking dialogue about it in the event quest for the Undaunted Celebration.
In order to get players to take the longer path, you have to incentivize them to do it. And paying people transmute crystals to do them is clearly an effective incentive.
People will always pick the easiest dungeons to get rewards. But the dungeons people actually need the most help with are the harder ones. Therefore letting people pick means that people who are in the most need of help won't get it.
Therefore a reward for helping people can't allow people pick, and instead must be based on what is needed.
Your entire response was about simply earning rewards and taking the path of least resistance, assuming all players care about is their daily rewards and bribing them into content. I think the devs look at it a lot like you do as well.
I however, am mostly incentivized by having fun, grouping with like minded players after similar goals as myself. I log in to have fun, not to grind out some daily rewards and call it a day, because that burns me out and sucks all the fun out of the game. It is first and foremost a game, not a job.
If you don't care about the rewards you can already queue for any dungeon grouping you want and just enjoy doing dungeons with others. The sole difference between picking what you want and letting ZOS pick is the rewards, for the person doing the queueing.
You ignored the part where I said grouping with like minded players looking to achieve similar goals. Yes I can queue for any dungeon, and under the current system it will end up being 3 other players, all there for different reasons, most of which will conflict, not synergize, with my own. It is not a fun system and makes dungeons considerably less fun than they could be.
The only way to guarantee like minded players is to make a premade. That's not really a flaw of the RND or even the activity finder. It's just kind of inherent to what happens when you have dungeons that have a lot of things you can get out of them, and then pull a random group of people together to do them. Not everyone will be there for the same reason.
The only way to solve that issue is to also give us a group finder that allows us to make a premade out of the broader playerbase and not just people we know, so that we can set the task we plan to use the group for and create our own requirements for who joins. A random system will always have that issue.Edited by spartaxoxo on December 12, 2021 10:08PM0 -
Kwoung✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »Even something as simple as choose 3 dungeons to queue for and you get one of those.
Players of every game will always choose the path of least resistance to get their rewards. That's why you don't see anyone ever complaining about they can't get the crystal reward by only queueung the DLC dungeons. Even people who enjoy DLC dungeons will realize that the get their crystals faster from fungal grotto and will instead do that.
Speaking of FG, it's by far the easiest dungeon in the game. And you know which dungeon nearly everyone gets their event ticket from when allowed to get it from every dungeon from the Undaunted event? Fungal Grotto. So much so they put in joking dialogue about it in the event quest for the Undaunted Celebration.
In order to get players to take the longer path, you have to incentivize them to do it. And paying people transmute crystals to do them is clearly an effective incentive.
People will always pick the easiest dungeons to get rewards. But the dungeons people actually need the most help with are the harder ones. Therefore letting people pick means that people who are in the most need of help won't get it.
Therefore a reward for helping people can't allow people pick, and instead must be based on what is needed.
Your entire response was about simply earning rewards and taking the path of least resistance, assuming all players care about is their daily rewards and bribing them into content. I think the devs look at it a lot like you do as well.
I however, am mostly incentivized by having fun, grouping with like minded players after similar goals as myself. I log in to have fun, not to grind out some daily rewards and call it a day, because that burns me out and sucks all the fun out of the game. It is first and foremost a game, not a job.
If you don't care about the rewards you can already queue for any dungeon grouping you want and just enjoy doing dungeons with others. The sole difference between picking what you want and letting ZOS pick is the rewards, for the person doing the queueing.
You ignored the part where I said grouping with like minded players looking to achieve similar goals. Yes I can queue for any dungeon, and under the current system it will end up being 3 other players, all there for different reasons, most of which will conflict, not synergize, with my own. It is not a fun system and makes dungeons considerably less fun than they could be.
The only way to guarantee like minded players is to make a premade. That's not really a flaw of the RND or even the activity finder. It's just kind of inherent to what happens when you have dungeons that have a lot of things you can get out of them, and then pull a random group of people together to do them. Not everyone will be there for the same reason.
The only way to solve that issue is to also give us a group finder that allows us to make a premade out of the broader playerbase and not just people we know, so that we can set the task we plan to use the group for and create our own requirements for who joins. A random system will always have that issue.
As I posted previously, simply separating the folks who have a actual reason to be there, be it questing, a piece of gear, the monster helm or it just being a dungeon they enjoy... from the folks that simply want to blow through and get their daily reward, would pretty much fix the issue.
I feel like ZOS is coming from a place that is assuming no one, or not enough folks, want to do dungeons or help each other willingly, which based on every other game I ever played, is simply not true. It is generally a primary activity players look forward to participating in and spending their in-game time doing... at least everywhere but ESO. Maybe I am wrong, but I am under the impression that because of how dungeons and the systems around them have evolved here... most folks do dungeons as a chore, not an activity to simply have fun with. Yeah, if there is an item you need from a dungeon, even better, but I have run many dungeons in other games, simply for the fun and challenge of doing it, or to simply help a complete stranger get something they wanted... and not just because I needed something from it.Edited by Kwoung on December 12, 2021 11:22PM2 -
Franchise408✭✭✭✭✭Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »Those rewards are for helping with people with a dungeon they need and you are available to do, rather than just for doing a dungeon you feel like doing. People pay real money for those dungeons and their need to be able to do them outweights your desire to get easy rewards
They do have help, from other players who also paid real money for said dungeons. ESO+ members for the craft bag are not always in the same mindset as DLC thrill seekers.
I will agree. I don't really buy into being forced to do something I do not enjoy, so someone else can do something they want to. I am not a part of ZOS's "toolbox" to use as a fix for a broken or ill thought out system, I am a paying customer. If customers have issues with queues, the number of tanks or healers, etc... it is on ZOS to fix it, without using me to do so.
If all dungeons were created mostly equal, this would not be a problem. But someone at ZOS decided that DLC dungeons need to be longer, harder, contain more annoying (and sometime ridiculous) mechanics than base game dungeons, yet offer the same rewards as their easier counterparts, and created the issue for themselves and us. Simply put, if another player wants to run some DLC dungeon for gear or whatever, that isn't my problem... and should in no way affect me. They could add extra rewards for joining that guy, which would motivate many to help, or any number of other things could be done.
You're not being forced into anything. You are free to select the dungeons that you want to do.
But if you aren't meeting the criteria required of the rewards, you are not entitled to them either. If you want the rewards, then you subject yourself to the possibility of a DLC. If you don't want DLC, then you manually select which dungeons you want to do.
You're not being forced into anything.0 -
Bobby_V_Rockit✭✭✭✭✭
✭Franchise408 wrote: »Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »Those rewards are for helping with people with a dungeon they need and you are available to do, rather than just for doing a dungeon you feel like doing. People pay real money for those dungeons and their need to be able to do them outweights your desire to get easy rewards
They do have help, from other players who also paid real money for said dungeons. ESO+ members for the craft bag are not always in the same mindset as DLC thrill seekers.
I will agree. I don't really buy into being forced to do something I do not enjoy, so someone else can do something they want to. I am not a part of ZOS's "toolbox" to use as a fix for a broken or ill thought out system, I am a paying customer. If customers have issues with queues, the number of tanks or healers, etc... it is on ZOS to fix it, without using me to do so.
If all dungeons were created mostly equal, this would not be a problem. But someone at ZOS decided that DLC dungeons need to be longer, harder, contain more annoying (and sometime ridiculous) mechanics than base game dungeons, yet offer the same rewards as their easier counterparts, and created the issue for themselves and us. Simply put, if another player wants to run some DLC dungeon for gear or whatever, that isn't my problem... and should in no way affect me. They could add extra rewards for joining that guy, which would motivate many to help, or any number of other things could be done.
You're not being forced into anything. You are free to select the dungeons that you want to do.
But if you aren't meeting the criteria required of the rewards, you are not entitled to them either. If you want the rewards, then you subject yourself to the possibility of a DLC. If you don't want DLC, then you manually select which dungeons you want to do.
You're not being forced into anything.
You’re missing the point, non-ESO+ Players don’t have to worry about it, the non-paying player base is at the advantage here. Subbing to ESO+ doesn’t mean I’m somehow more willing to help in a DLC dungeon than not subbing.3 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »Franchise408 wrote: »Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »Those rewards are for helping with people with a dungeon they need and you are available to do, rather than just for doing a dungeon you feel like doing. People pay real money for those dungeons and their need to be able to do them outweights your desire to get easy rewards
They do have help, from other players who also paid real money for said dungeons. ESO+ members for the craft bag are not always in the same mindset as DLC thrill seekers.
I will agree. I don't really buy into being forced to do something I do not enjoy, so someone else can do something they want to. I am not a part of ZOS's "toolbox" to use as a fix for a broken or ill thought out system, I am a paying customer. If customers have issues with queues, the number of tanks or healers, etc... it is on ZOS to fix it, without using me to do so.
If all dungeons were created mostly equal, this would not be a problem. But someone at ZOS decided that DLC dungeons need to be longer, harder, contain more annoying (and sometime ridiculous) mechanics than base game dungeons, yet offer the same rewards as their easier counterparts, and created the issue for themselves and us. Simply put, if another player wants to run some DLC dungeon for gear or whatever, that isn't my problem... and should in no way affect me. They could add extra rewards for joining that guy, which would motivate many to help, or any number of other things could be done.
You're not being forced into anything. You are free to select the dungeons that you want to do.
But if you aren't meeting the criteria required of the rewards, you are not entitled to them either. If you want the rewards, then you subject yourself to the possibility of a DLC. If you don't want DLC, then you manually select which dungeons you want to do.
You're not being forced into anything.
You’re missing the point, non-ESO+ Players don’t have to worry about it, the non-paying player base is at the advantage here. Subbing to ESO+ doesn’t mean I’m somehow more willing to help in a DLC dungeon than not subbing.
Both ESO+ and Non-Subs are queued into every dungeon they qualify for without choice. When you click the random button you are agreeing that you are willing to help with any dungeon you qualify to do.
Non-Subs are placed into all DLC dungeons that they own. They simply aren't being placed into dungeons they don't own.
Refusing to give people content they did not pay is not a punishment of people who did pay for it.0 -
Troodon80✭✭✭✭✭
✭Tiered approach would seem like the easiest fix for this, but who knows with the codebase. Make the random queues different, but still incentivise doing the DLC.- Regular normal dungeons give 50k XP (~50% what they currently do) and RNG 1-10 transmute crystals (or reuse the 4-25 from Cyrodiil)
- Not much incentive here for a high end player to be here, but if they are then they're guaranteed of getting the shorter/easier dungeons
- Crystals and XP are not necssarily the primary focus
- Normal DLC gives 100k XP, but guaranteed 10 crystals
- This is what we have right now
- Keeps some people who want relatively easy clears without being forced into veteran
- Regular non-DLC veteran 100k XP and 25 crystals
- This is more than what we currently get on normal or veteran and allows you to get more than double the amount, probably the biggest overall incentive;
- Pushes those speedrunners that people complain about into the veteran queue because they're primarily only there for crystals
- Veteran DLC (hard modes not required) 200k XP and 50 crystals
- Specific to those end game players who can easily do the content, who want to grind those geodes all day every day, or just people who need "fast" crystals and don't mind taking 20-30 minutes versus relogging to five characters for the same amount
There are obviously various methods of "balancing" this if the exact details don't mesh well. However, in my opinion, this also isn't the best solution because there's a broader issue here. The DD queue can already take upwards of one hour. Now, split more people across more game-modes and... that queue time increases for everyone. Everyone saying that there should be a separate queue, and I'm not disagreeing per se, isn't really thinking this through in terms of how it affects others and the game's health in general.@Troodon80 PC | EU
Guild: N&S
Hand of Alkosh | Dawnbringer | Immortal Redeemer | Tick Tock Tormentor | Gryphon Heart
Deep Dive into Dreadsail Reef Mechanics0 - Regular normal dungeons give 50k XP (~50% what they currently do) and RNG 1-10 transmute crystals (or reuse the 4-25 from Cyrodiil)
-
Bobby_V_Rockit✭✭✭✭✭
✭spartaxoxo wrote: »Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »Franchise408 wrote: »Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »Those rewards are for helping with people with a dungeon they need and you are available to do, rather than just for doing a dungeon you feel like doing. People pay real money for those dungeons and their need to be able to do them outweights your desire to get easy rewards
They do have help, from other players who also paid real money for said dungeons. ESO+ members for the craft bag are not always in the same mindset as DLC thrill seekers.
I will agree. I don't really buy into being forced to do something I do not enjoy, so someone else can do something they want to. I am not a part of ZOS's "toolbox" to use as a fix for a broken or ill thought out system, I am a paying customer. If customers have issues with queues, the number of tanks or healers, etc... it is on ZOS to fix it, without using me to do so.
If all dungeons were created mostly equal, this would not be a problem. But someone at ZOS decided that DLC dungeons need to be longer, harder, contain more annoying (and sometime ridiculous) mechanics than base game dungeons, yet offer the same rewards as their easier counterparts, and created the issue for themselves and us. Simply put, if another player wants to run some DLC dungeon for gear or whatever, that isn't my problem... and should in no way affect me. They could add extra rewards for joining that guy, which would motivate many to help, or any number of other things could be done.
You're not being forced into anything. You are free to select the dungeons that you want to do.
But if you aren't meeting the criteria required of the rewards, you are not entitled to them either. If you want the rewards, then you subject yourself to the possibility of a DLC. If you don't want DLC, then you manually select which dungeons you want to do.
You're not being forced into anything.
You’re missing the point, non-ESO+ Players don’t have to worry about it, the non-paying player base is at the advantage here. Subbing to ESO+ doesn’t mean I’m somehow more willing to help in a DLC dungeon than not subbing.
Both ESO+ and Non-Subs are queued into every dungeon they qualify for without choice. When you click the random button you are agreeing that you are willing to help with any dungeon you qualify to do.
Non-Subs are placed into all DLC dungeons that they own. They simply aren't being placed into dungeons they don't own.
Refusing to give people content they did not pay is not a punishment of people who did pay for it.
Again, I ALSO did not buy the DLC dungeon packs, as I don’t want them. Yet I am forced into them simply because I need the craft bag. If non subscribers don’t have to play them (and they get their random dungeon rewards comfortably without having to bail 4-5 times), why should I have to? It needs to be a toggle, I can imagine some players sun for the easy access to DLC but others don’t.3 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »Franchise408 wrote: »Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »Those rewards are for helping with people with a dungeon they need and you are available to do, rather than just for doing a dungeon you feel like doing. People pay real money for those dungeons and their need to be able to do them outweights your desire to get easy rewards
They do have help, from other players who also paid real money for said dungeons. ESO+ members for the craft bag are not always in the same mindset as DLC thrill seekers.
I will agree. I don't really buy into being forced to do something I do not enjoy, so someone else can do something they want to. I am not a part of ZOS's "toolbox" to use as a fix for a broken or ill thought out system, I am a paying customer. If customers have issues with queues, the number of tanks or healers, etc... it is on ZOS to fix it, without using me to do so.
If all dungeons were created mostly equal, this would not be a problem. But someone at ZOS decided that DLC dungeons need to be longer, harder, contain more annoying (and sometime ridiculous) mechanics than base game dungeons, yet offer the same rewards as their easier counterparts, and created the issue for themselves and us. Simply put, if another player wants to run some DLC dungeon for gear or whatever, that isn't my problem... and should in no way affect me. They could add extra rewards for joining that guy, which would motivate many to help, or any number of other things could be done.
You're not being forced into anything. You are free to select the dungeons that you want to do.
But if you aren't meeting the criteria required of the rewards, you are not entitled to them either. If you want the rewards, then you subject yourself to the possibility of a DLC. If you don't want DLC, then you manually select which dungeons you want to do.
You're not being forced into anything.
You’re missing the point, non-ESO+ Players don’t have to worry about it, the non-paying player base is at the advantage here. Subbing to ESO+ doesn’t mean I’m somehow more willing to help in a DLC dungeon than not subbing.
Both ESO+ and Non-Subs are queued into every dungeon they qualify for without choice. When you click the random button you are agreeing that you are willing to help with any dungeon you qualify to do.
Non-Subs are placed into all DLC dungeons that they own. They simply aren't being placed into dungeons they don't own.
Refusing to give people content they did not pay is not a punishment of people who did pay for it.
Again, I ALSO did not buy the DLC dungeon packs, as I don’t want them. Yet I am forced into them simply because I need the craft bag. If non subscribers don’t have to play them (and they get their random dungeon rewards comfortably without having to bail 4-5 times), why should I have to? It needs to be a toggle, I can imagine some players sun for the easy access to DLC but others don’t.
You did buy the DLC dungeon packs and getting all the major DLC is a major selling point of ESO+.
You can always queue for just the dungeons you want to do.
What you want is to be able to pay for a special bonus feature that's not avaialble to others, the ability to choose what you want to do and get rewarded for helping everyone you are able when you didn't actually help everyone you are able.
And that's simply not how the system works.
The random is not a payment for running dungeons of your choice. It is a payment for letting the activity finder pick based off all the DLC you have access to. And buy subscribing you are choosing to have access to all the dlc.Edited by spartaxoxo on December 14, 2021 3:36AM1 -
Bobby_V_Rockit✭✭✭✭✭
✭spartaxoxo wrote: »Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »Franchise408 wrote: »Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »Those rewards are for helping with people with a dungeon they need and you are available to do, rather than just for doing a dungeon you feel like doing. People pay real money for those dungeons and their need to be able to do them outweights your desire to get easy rewards
They do have help, from other players who also paid real money for said dungeons. ESO+ members for the craft bag are not always in the same mindset as DLC thrill seekers.
I will agree. I don't really buy into being forced to do something I do not enjoy, so someone else can do something they want to. I am not a part of ZOS's "toolbox" to use as a fix for a broken or ill thought out system, I am a paying customer. If customers have issues with queues, the number of tanks or healers, etc... it is on ZOS to fix it, without using me to do so.
If all dungeons were created mostly equal, this would not be a problem. But someone at ZOS decided that DLC dungeons need to be longer, harder, contain more annoying (and sometime ridiculous) mechanics than base game dungeons, yet offer the same rewards as their easier counterparts, and created the issue for themselves and us. Simply put, if another player wants to run some DLC dungeon for gear or whatever, that isn't my problem... and should in no way affect me. They could add extra rewards for joining that guy, which would motivate many to help, or any number of other things could be done.
You're not being forced into anything. You are free to select the dungeons that you want to do.
But if you aren't meeting the criteria required of the rewards, you are not entitled to them either. If you want the rewards, then you subject yourself to the possibility of a DLC. If you don't want DLC, then you manually select which dungeons you want to do.
You're not being forced into anything.
You’re missing the point, non-ESO+ Players don’t have to worry about it, the non-paying player base is at the advantage here. Subbing to ESO+ doesn’t mean I’m somehow more willing to help in a DLC dungeon than not subbing.
Both ESO+ and Non-Subs are queued into every dungeon they qualify for without choice. When you click the random button you are agreeing that you are willing to help with any dungeon you qualify to do.
Non-Subs are placed into all DLC dungeons that they own. They simply aren't being placed into dungeons they don't own.
Refusing to give people content they did not pay is not a punishment of people who did pay for it.
Again, I ALSO did not buy the DLC dungeon packs, as I don’t want them. Yet I am forced into them simply because I need the craft bag. If non subscribers don’t have to play them (and they get their random dungeon rewards comfortably without having to bail 4-5 times), why should I have to? It needs to be a toggle, I can imagine some players sun for the easy access to DLC but others don’t.
You did buy the DLC dungeon packs and getting all the major DLC is a major selling point of ESO+.
You can always queue for just the dungeons you want to do.
What you want is to be able to pay for a special bonus feature that's not avaialble to others, the ability to choose what you want to do and get rewarded for helping everyone you are able when you didn't actually help everyone you are able.
And that's simply not how the system works.
The random is not a payment for running dungeons of your choice. It is a payment for letting the activity finder pick based off all the DLC you have access to. And buy subscribing you are choosing to have access to all the dlc.
Well, guess we gotta agree to disagree, such is life. Must be annoying for the other players though when we drop from the group immediately as soon as we see it’s a long DLC though.2 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »Franchise408 wrote: »Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »Those rewards are for helping with people with a dungeon they need and you are available to do, rather than just for doing a dungeon you feel like doing. People pay real money for those dungeons and their need to be able to do them outweights your desire to get easy rewards
They do have help, from other players who also paid real money for said dungeons. ESO+ members for the craft bag are not always in the same mindset as DLC thrill seekers.
I will agree. I don't really buy into being forced to do something I do not enjoy, so someone else can do something they want to. I am not a part of ZOS's "toolbox" to use as a fix for a broken or ill thought out system, I am a paying customer. If customers have issues with queues, the number of tanks or healers, etc... it is on ZOS to fix it, without using me to do so.
If all dungeons were created mostly equal, this would not be a problem. But someone at ZOS decided that DLC dungeons need to be longer, harder, contain more annoying (and sometime ridiculous) mechanics than base game dungeons, yet offer the same rewards as their easier counterparts, and created the issue for themselves and us. Simply put, if another player wants to run some DLC dungeon for gear or whatever, that isn't my problem... and should in no way affect me. They could add extra rewards for joining that guy, which would motivate many to help, or any number of other things could be done.
You're not being forced into anything. You are free to select the dungeons that you want to do.
But if you aren't meeting the criteria required of the rewards, you are not entitled to them either. If you want the rewards, then you subject yourself to the possibility of a DLC. If you don't want DLC, then you manually select which dungeons you want to do.
You're not being forced into anything.
You’re missing the point, non-ESO+ Players don’t have to worry about it, the non-paying player base is at the advantage here. Subbing to ESO+ doesn’t mean I’m somehow more willing to help in a DLC dungeon than not subbing.
Both ESO+ and Non-Subs are queued into every dungeon they qualify for without choice. When you click the random button you are agreeing that you are willing to help with any dungeon you qualify to do.
Non-Subs are placed into all DLC dungeons that they own. They simply aren't being placed into dungeons they don't own.
Refusing to give people content they did not pay is not a punishment of people who did pay for it.
Again, I ALSO did not buy the DLC dungeon packs, as I don’t want them. Yet I am forced into them simply because I need the craft bag. If non subscribers don’t have to play them (and they get their random dungeon rewards comfortably without having to bail 4-5 times), why should I have to? It needs to be a toggle, I can imagine some players sun for the easy access to DLC but others don’t.
You did buy the DLC dungeon packs and getting all the major DLC is a major selling point of ESO+.
You can always queue for just the dungeons you want to do.
What you want is to be able to pay for a special bonus feature that's not avaialble to others, the ability to choose what you want to do and get rewarded for helping everyone you are able when you didn't actually help everyone you are able.
And that's simply not how the system works.
The random is not a payment for running dungeons of your choice. It is a payment for letting the activity finder pick based off all the DLC you have access to. And buy subscribing you are choosing to have access to all the dlc.
Well, guess we gotta agree to disagree, such is life. Must be annoying for the other players though when we drop from the group immediately as soon as we see it’s a long DLC though.
It is. But usually the dungeon is completed since most don't drop out and instead run the whole thing.0 -
Whiskey_JG✭✭✭Honestly, I only do RNDs for 2 specific reasons:
a) either I have a new character which needs levelling up - so the XP boost really helps
b) to farm transmutes - coz I cant stand running around in Cyrodil.
With that being said, sometimes I do pop a vetRND just for the thrill and maybe get a cool dlc dungeon. Now I understand that is not for everyone.
This technically should be a relatively easy fix since all dungeon conent is instanced. I dont think the suggested change is a big issue especially since the people who do vet DLC HMs, plan the group to get a good clear. So "on paper", separating dungeon queues between RND non-dlc vs RND +dlc, should not result in longer queues.
I would however add that the rewards should be increased accordingly.
Actively popping a veteran RND DLC dungeon should give me at least 25 transmutes (increased to 50, if I clear HM). Some hardmodes in dlc dungeons take more time to clear than you would running around in cyrodil (apart that you actually need skills and planning, not just runnng around).
If rewards were tiered, I would be doing vet RND DLC HMs all DAY, on every character. (I mean they really are more rewarding plus some have interesting mechanics and storylines)0 -
Troodon80✭✭✭✭✭
✭Whiskey_JG wrote: »This technically should be a relatively easy fix since all dungeon conent is instanced. I dont think the suggested change is a big issue especially since the people who do vet DLC HMs, plan the group to get a good clear. So "on paper", separating dungeon queues between RND non-dlc vs RND +dlc, should not result in longer queues.
My suggestion above for a tiered approach is more or less what you've suggested, and as I said above there is a potential issue that arises with longer queue times. The people who invest time into getting good veteran DLC hard mode clears will be organising it, generally, this is true. But since they is no such queue those people are instead in the regular queue at the moment. They're not organising it. Maybe solo or duo queue. This queue is a backfill for people queuing for specific dungeons, much the same way that random Battlegrounds are used as a backfill for Deathmatches (still).
Now you create a new queue, and you remove those people from the overall queue. They're no longer queuing as 1, 2, 3, or sometimes a full group of 4. They're now queuing as a full group for an organised clear because of higher rewards to make up for the time spent and the effort of getting the clear. They're out of the queue. This results in longer queues for those who are left. The more queues you make, the longer the time for all involved. Or perhaps one queue will be longer than the others. Or any combination on any give day. The only way it doesn't become a problem is if you have substantially more people queuing. The only way it can't be described as a potential problem is if those people were not already queuing.
I, for example, would be doing veteran DLC, or the DLC hard modes, if they gave substantially more crystals than random normals. Which was my logic for proving different tiers of incentive based on time/effort to do. But I queue for random normals as it is. That means I'm removed from the queue if I'm now only doing DLC. My queue time goes down because I'm in a full pre-made group, but others' go up because they're stuck in the queue that I left.
On ther topic of splitting the queues as the original poster said, or as I said above, unless you specifically incentivise doing the other content, that content will never be run. Few people are going to willingly solo queue into a random veteran DLC dungeon if it offers the same as you can get from a random normal with a guarantee of not getting DLC. Most would be happy if they could queue into Fungal Grotto I over and over. Which means the only people making use of that queue are pre-mades. What's the point of even having the queue? Same with normal DLC. Further, without DLC being an issue for random queues, you'll have even more "fake" roles, which seems to be the topic of the day week month.@Troodon80 PC | EU
Guild: N&S
Hand of Alkosh | Dawnbringer | Immortal Redeemer | Tick Tock Tormentor | Gryphon Heart
Deep Dive into Dreadsail Reef Mechanics2 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I feel like ZOS is coming from a place that is assuming no one, or not enough folks, want to do dungeons or help each other willingly, which based on every other game I ever played, is simply not true. It is generally a primary activity players look forward to participating in and spending their in-game time doing... at least everywhere but ESO. Maybe I am wrong, but I am under the impression that because of how dungeons and the systems around them have evolved here... most folks do dungeons as a chore, not an activity to simply have fun with. Yeah, if there is an item you need from a dungeon, even better, but I have run many dungeons in other games, simply for the fun and challenge of doing it, or to simply help a complete stranger get something they wanted... and not just because I needed something from it.
Dungeons in ESO just aren't content people generally like, for whatever reason. I suspect because they make them too long.
I remember before transmutes got added, for example, it wouldn't be uncommon for me to wait an hour to queue as a dps. And sometimes, I didn't get a group at all. The wait time has been drastically reduced (I'd say by about like 2/3rds) since the introduction of the transmutes.
As such, I don't really want to see any changes that are likely to result in not getting dungeons again.Edited by spartaxoxo on December 14, 2021 9:04PM2
