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Backlash buff was too much and needs to be toned down (PvP perspective)
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snipezor✭✭✭It's unorthodox and not for everyone, but I stopped using shade years ago, and when they made Turn Evil a fear I started running that instead of hysteria (while stam, anyway).Edited by snipezor on August 24, 2021 3:14AM2 -
MadeInVN✭✭✭✭Templars get something comparable to Haunted Curse Blastbones, and Shalks, but still have to work towards the damage. And someone is unhappy that a class that might not have given them a problem before, is suddenly more difficult. Learn to adapt before rushing to the forums on day 1.
We have been testing on pts for weeks and relaying this information to the devs. I'm sorry you don't care enough about PvP but I do [snip].
I do pvp. I do care. And I've been watching the same discord channels that you've been posting in. Give it some time. [snip]
Alright then what discord am I posting it in?
You asked your buddy to do a test so you could post this screenshot. You didn't fight back in the test. Your buddy did a "wave" of damage while you stood there "statically".
The point is to show the damage scaling. Why is that hard to understand?
If you are going to show a video clip of you just standing there taking damage, not dodging, not los-ing, etc, it's not really proving anything yet. Just give the patch some time. If more players begin to speak up about damage out of control, then that will happen. I think we have much more out of control damage things that need more attention than a single target skill.
I already did a bunch of duels against my templar friend, and played BGs. The screenshot in my original post was from a BG game.
You don't need to fight back to see why it's busted. That's like saying necro's 10k blastbones isn't busted because I'm not fighting back. If a templar can light attack someone for 7 times and hit a 9k pl what makes you think he wouldn't just blow people up if he actually did a full damage combo?
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on August 24, 2021 10:50AM7 -
Indigogo✭✭✭✭✭
You've yet to supply any valid reason as to why this is over performing or not comparable to other delayed burst abilities like Curse, BB, shalks....
They all hit for similar numbers or much, much higher.
Now, if it hit for 18k, I could see a reason for concern but 9k? Come on.
Good change for templars it looks like.25 -
temerley✭✭✭Dude, like, you actually have to get hit by templars to proc a high PL, unlike blastbones where they just need to target you.
I'm not really into temps for pvp but IMO this is a good change for them just kite them or something13 -
katanagirl1✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭As a stamplar, POTL is my main class damage skill in PvP. The other class skills are mostly cleansing and defensive skills.
The deal with it though, is when you get hit with it you see the light on your character and you either cleanse or stop doing damage to the other guy because you know it will be reflected back to you. For the Templar, it’s a lot of strategy to get this to work, it is not easy.
I had not heard this skill was getting buffed and I don’t get the update until next week. I would welcome any improvements to Templar, especially stamina builds, because it is really tough to succeed in PvP against almost every other class out there.
Khajiit Stamblade main
Dark Elf Magsorc
Redguard Stamina Dragonknight
Orc Stamplar PVP
Breton Magsorc PVP
Dark Elf Necromancer
Dark Elf Magden
Khajiit Stamblade
Khajiit Stamina Arcanist
PS5 NA5 -
MadeInVN✭✭✭✭
You've yet to supply any valid reason as to why this is over performing or not comparable to other delayed burst abilities like Curse, BB, shalks....
They all hit for similar numbers or much, much higher.
Now, if it hit for 18k, I could see a reason for concern but 9k? Come on.
Good change for templars it looks like.
Okay so let me give you some reasons why it's not comparable and a concern.
Blastbones: can be blocked and mitigated by evasion
Shalks: can be moved out, blocked, and mitigated by evasion
Bow proc: can be roll dodged and blocked
Bound Armaments: can be roll dodged and blocked
Curse: Can only be cleansed
Backlash: Can only be cleansed or denied dmg stacking
Okay let's look at curse, the only ability that requires cleansing to mitigate damage. Magsorc's entire toolkit consists of ranged single target damage. Single target = can be roll dodged or blocked. So when you do those defensive maneuvers, you can heal through curse.
Let's look at backlash along with templar's entire toolkit. Most of their dmg are melee AoE, meaning you can't roll dodge and have to block or create distance. Seems easy right? Not entirely. You see, they have a skill called toppling charge. You can try to create distance, but they will spam it on you, and toppling charge can hit anywhere from 3k-4k damage alone. Not only that, but consecutive toppling charges also proc burning light for 2.5-3k, which is ALSO unblockable. Not only that, but most templars also use crescents and solar barrage, which are 2 AoE DoTs that you cannot cleanse. Crescent's DoT can hit anywhere between 4k-5k. So you have a templar with 2 AoE DoTs and a gap closer that can proc another unblockable single target dmg as you hopelessly try to create distance.
But here's why backlash is better than curse. First of all, templars deal 10% more damage to a blocking target, so if you block you eat 10% more damage from an already unblockable backlash. Second of all, the 50% damage scaling means if you deal 18k damage within 6 seconds, backlash will return half of that, or 9k damage. This isn't mitigated by battle spirit, btw. Why do I know that? Because look a this screenshot below:
From the moment my opponent casted back lash on me to the point where it "procced", I took 18k damage from JUST light attacks + degeneration ticks. Backlash returned 8.6k non crit damage.
So why is it a problem? Firstly, magicka templar even before backlash buff was already a very strong pressure class. It's drawback was lacking a good burst, but that's intended. If you put a good burst on a class that also has superior pressure, you're creating an imbalanced class. That's exactly the reason why if Necros and Wardens had the same pressure as magplar, they would be 4 tiers above everything else.
Secondly, the current counterplays for templar do not work very well. If you put a delayed burst ability on a class, you expect it to have counter play. What's the counterplay for haunting curse? You roll dodge so as to avoid the rest of their single target combo, giving you a chance to heal up. What's the counterplay for backlash? You create distance. You can't block their damage because backlash stores it super fast and gets amped up by 10% from your block. You have to create distance to take less damage. But in a real fight it's not possible. Templars have a very strong gap closer. They can also literally spam light attacks from you at range and still hit a fat backlash proc, like the screen shot I demonstrated. So you can't block because it makes backlash hit for more. You also can't run away because they can spam gapclosers or spam light attacks to store the damage super fast. What are you going to do?
You can't do anything, because there's no counterplay lol.. And before you tell me I need to adapt. No, I don't. I've dueled and fought against more templars than you know, some of which are top tier magplars for PC NA. I've lost a lot, and also won a lot, and here is what I and literally everyone can tell you about templar's counterplay - to create distance. But you can't even do that anymore, so what do you suggest I do if you think this ability is fine? Have you actually fought a templar with this new backlash? Please enlighten me.Edited by MadeInVN on August 24, 2021 5:42AM6 -
Indigogo✭✭✭✭✭Cool, thanks for writing that out. Helps to understand where you're coming from a little better.0
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MadeInVN✭✭✭✭Dude, like, you actually have to get hit by templars to proc a high PL, unlike blastbones where they just need to target you.
I'm not really into temps for pvp but IMO this is a good change for them just kite them or something
Yea and please explain to me how hitting someone for 7 light attacks and hitting a 9k back lash is fair?1 -
MadeInVN✭✭✭✭Dude, like, you actually have to get hit by templars to proc a high PL, unlike blastbones where they just need to target you.
I'm not really into temps for pvp but IMO this is a good change for them just kite them or something
And no, you can't kite them because they have an ability called toppling charge. They spam it on you and proc burning light for consecutive uses. They can also spam ranged light attacks on you. Literally look at the screenshot lol.. The guy hit 7 inferno light attacks and procced a 8.6k backlash. You can't kite. You can't block the damage because backlash gets amped by 10%. You can't roll dodge either. You literally have no counter dude.2 -
Ippokrates✭✭✭✭✭Ippokrates wrote: »DTStormfox wrote: »I don't know. ~9k damage from an ability that has to charge for 6 seconds seems fine to me. And it also is very obvious when it will proc the burst, so you can (probably) easily out-heal it at the right moment.
That's not the problem. The problem is it's unblockable and undodgable. There is no counterplay to it.
It is. Purge. Every class have access to it. In pvp skill tree. And it is AoE. With radius of 18 m. And it is impossible to do not see this skill over player.
I'm sorry but nobody on earth is going to slot a 5k magicka ability that can only cleanse 3 abilities unless they are a dedicated purge bot for an organized group.
On my pvp DK I am always slotting purge for situation like these, because normally i am playing stamplar (also have cleansing for purge & hot) and it always get me laugh when most of people don't care about any form of removing debuffs and then they are running like headless chickens with large green beam over head. Seriosly, especially if you are playing on Cyro, without means to remove things like curse, mark or alchemical poisons, you are asking yourself to get whipped, just like running without any form of detection.
Sure, potl is great, but unfortunately it is only way to get stamplar something alike combo - unlike other classes that can land few skills at once in intervals of 3 seconds, to make it work templar must not only wait 6 seconds but also keep damaging. So it is good for killing low & average players, but against good players that actually care about things like removing debuffs, not so much.
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MadeInVN✭✭✭✭BalticBlues wrote: »
Okay let me slot a 5k alliance purge that removes 3 debuffs against someone that regularly applies 5 debuffs. Hmm maybe I can use it twice and remove back lash right? It's just 10k magicka, he can't possibly reapply everything for a fraction of the cost..
Okay let me cloak on stamsorc..
Okay let me just streak away as he spams toppling charge that can also proc burning light.
I don't think you even looked at the screenshot. [snip]
[edited for baiting]Edited by ZOS_Icy on August 24, 2021 11:08AM9 -
itscompton✭✭✭✭✭
✭Kill the Templar in less than six seconds when they try to pressure you. Problem solved.Edited by itscompton on August 24, 2021 6:44AM11 -
MadeInVN✭✭✭✭Ippokrates wrote: »Ippokrates wrote: »DTStormfox wrote: »I don't know. ~9k damage from an ability that has to charge for 6 seconds seems fine to me. And it also is very obvious when it will proc the burst, so you can (probably) easily out-heal it at the right moment.
That's not the problem. The problem is it's unblockable and undodgable. There is no counterplay to it.
It is. Purge. Every class have access to it. In pvp skill tree. And it is AoE. With radius of 18 m. And it is impossible to do not see this skill over player.
I'm sorry but nobody on earth is going to slot a 5k magicka ability that can only cleanse 3 abilities unless they are a dedicated purge bot for an organized group.
On my pvp DK I am always slotting purge for situation like these, because normally i am playing stamplar (also have cleansing for purge & hot) and it always get me laugh when most of people don't care about any form of removing debuffs and then they are running like headless chickens with large green beam over head. Seriosly, especially if you are playing on Cyro, without means to remove things like curse, mark or alchemical poisons, you are asking yourself to get whipped, just like running without any form of detection.
Sure, potl is great, but unfortunately it is only way to get stamplar something alike combo - unlike other classes that can land few skills at once in intervals of 3 seconds, to make it work templar must not only wait 6 seconds but also keep damaging. So it is good for killing low & average players, but against good players that actually care about things like removing debuffs, not so much.
Last time I remember you play inside a large zerg. No offense but "slotting a 5k purge" doesn't really work for people who don't zerg
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BalticBlues✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
I play since beta, and Templars currently probably are the weakest class in PvP.[snip]
Play a slow Templar nowadays and get nuked left and right by bombers.
It's good that finally there is a little more risk attacking a Templar turtle.
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on August 24, 2021 11:09AM13 -
MadeInVN✭✭✭✭BalticBlues wrote: »
I'm glad templars are getting a buff, if you've played since beta then you must know that in a real fight it's hard to get away from a templar, correct? A templar can always build into speed and have no issues spamming toppling charge at you. How are you going to get away if you aren't a sorc or nb using cloak?
It would be fine if backlash can also be blocked, but it can't be, and that's a problem
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on August 24, 2021 11:10AM0 -
BalticBlues✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
Backlash means Templars need to get more damage within 6s to make this spell work. So avoid the damage by purging or getting away or using Terrain blocking or -best- interrupt/CC and kill the Templar Turtle. Even with the Backlash buff, I prefer any other class in PvP than a slow Templar. Templars are great group leaders and healers, but as DD they are slow and predictable. Most players die of unpredictable things killing you in a second, like bombers, shalks etc.It would be fine if backlash can also be blocked, but it can't be, and that's a problem
Edited by BalticBlues on August 24, 2021 7:19AM5 -
Ippokrates✭✭✭✭✭Ippokrates wrote: »Ippokrates wrote: »DTStormfox wrote: »I don't know. ~9k damage from an ability that has to charge for 6 seconds seems fine to me. And it also is very obvious when it will proc the burst, so you can (probably) easily out-heal it at the right moment.
That's not the problem. The problem is it's unblockable and undodgable. There is no counterplay to it.
It is. Purge. Every class have access to it. In pvp skill tree. And it is AoE. With radius of 18 m. And it is impossible to do not see this skill over player.
I'm sorry but nobody on earth is going to slot a 5k magicka ability that can only cleanse 3 abilities unless they are a dedicated purge bot for an organized group.
On my pvp DK I am always slotting purge for situation like these, because normally i am playing stamplar (also have cleansing for purge & hot) and it always get me laugh when most of people don't care about any form of removing debuffs and then they are running like headless chickens with large green beam over head. Seriosly, especially if you are playing on Cyro, without means to remove things like curse, mark or alchemical poisons, you are asking yourself to get whipped, just like running without any form of detection.
Sure, potl is great, but unfortunately it is only way to get stamplar something alike combo - unlike other classes that can land few skills at once in intervals of 3 seconds, to make it work templar must not only wait 6 seconds but also keep damaging. So it is good for killing low & average players, but against good players that actually care about things like removing debuffs, not so much.
Last time I remember you play inside a large zerg. No offense but "slotting a 5k purge" doesn't really work for people who don't zerg
Oh, that will be funny. So you remember me playing in zergs but now you are asking for my platform? ^^
Well, sure, when i am running with pve toons to get TC at the last days of campaing i usually join groups, because then there is no way to play solo. Map is too crowded, plus i like the feeling of common fight when you supporting each other, healing & resurrecting and coordinating siege equipment. But i was never member of organize ballgroup that is abusing system and running around keep like above mentioned headless chickens ^^
But purging have much more sense when i am playing with one of my 2 pvp toons. Especially when dueling solo, quick roll, purge and GC to get back to fight can surprise enemy.0 -
MadeInVN✭✭✭✭BalticBlues wrote: »
Backlash means Templars need to get more damage in 6s to make it dangerous. So avoid the damage by purging, getting away, using Terrain or -best- interrupt and CC the Templar Turtle. Even with the Backlash buff, I prefer any other class in PvP than a slow Templar. Templars are great group leaders and healers. But as DD they just are too slow and predictable. These days as a good player you die only of unpredicable things that kill you in a second, like bombers, shalks etc.It would be fine if backlash can also be blocked, but it can't be, and that's a problem
In cyrodiil it’s harder for a templar to get all the damage in but in smaller environments where fights constantly happen like BG you can definitely stack enough damage with a lot of AoE dots. The first screenshot shows just that. It was taken from a BG player who stacked a ton of AoE DoTs to basically guarantee a 10k proc every 6 seconds.
You can’t tell people to slot purge because again, it costs too much for too little benefit. You don’t see any solo pvper or a group without a dedicated purge bot using it.
Getting away USED to be the case, but not anymore. Speed is very easy to achieve now and you can almost certainly reach 160%+ movement speed on a magplar, and topping charge takes care of streak users.
It’s also very easy to build up the damage since it copies 50% of your damage, and the dmg return isnt mitigated by battle spirit. Meaning every 2k light attack you deal to me, I am taking 1k damage lol… I mean are you going to run away everytime a templar spams light attacks at you with backlash on? Because that’s exactly what will happen if you take 7 light attacks from a full dmg magplar. You will eat a 9k backlash proc like the screenshot..
Edited by MadeInVN on August 24, 2021 7:20AM1 -
MadeInVN✭✭✭✭Ippokrates wrote: »Ippokrates wrote: »Ippokrates wrote: »DTStormfox wrote: »I don't know. ~9k damage from an ability that has to charge for 6 seconds seems fine to me. And it also is very obvious when it will proc the burst, so you can (probably) easily out-heal it at the right moment.
That's not the problem. The problem is it's unblockable and undodgable. There is no counterplay to it.
It is. Purge. Every class have access to it. In pvp skill tree. And it is AoE. With radius of 18 m. And it is impossible to do not see this skill over player.
I'm sorry but nobody on earth is going to slot a 5k magicka ability that can only cleanse 3 abilities unless they are a dedicated purge bot for an organized group.
On my pvp DK I am always slotting purge for situation like these, because normally i am playing stamplar (also have cleansing for purge & hot) and it always get me laugh when most of people don't care about any form of removing debuffs and then they are running like headless chickens with large green beam over head. Seriosly, especially if you are playing on Cyro, without means to remove things like curse, mark or alchemical poisons, you are asking yourself to get whipped, just like running without any form of detection.
Sure, potl is great, but unfortunately it is only way to get stamplar something alike combo - unlike other classes that can land few skills at once in intervals of 3 seconds, to make it work templar must not only wait 6 seconds but also keep damaging. So it is good for killing low & average players, but against good players that actually care about things like removing debuffs, not so much.
Last time I remember you play inside a large zerg. No offense but "slotting a 5k purge" doesn't really work for people who don't zerg
Oh, that will be funny. So you remember me playing in zergs but now you are asking for my platform? ^^
Well, sure, when i am running with pve toons to get TC at the last days of campaing i usually join groups, because then there is no way to play solo. Map is too crowded, plus i like the feeling of common fight when you supporting each other, healing & resurrecting and coordinating siege equipment. But i was never member of organize ballgroup that is abusing system and running around keep like above mentioned headless chickens ^^
But purging have much more sense when i am playing with one of my 2 pvp toons. Especially when dueling solo, quick roll, purge and GC to get back to fight can surprise enemy.
Yes, I am asking for your platform and server. I’d like to have a friendly duel with you in game, just to see if I can learn anything from you.
When you solo, do you happen to also be near or inside a large zerg, just not grouped? Because that’s called zerg surfing. If you truly solo, then you will understand why nobody slots alliance purge on their bar. It’s one of those abilities that requires you to build for it. Some similar ones are revealing flare, siege shield, & rapid maneuver. All of them cost a lot of resources, and are only used by people who specifically build for a lot of regen to sustain those abilities. If you truly solo, and you are hoping to land any killing blows, then you cannot waste resources on abilities that are not cost effective.Edited by MadeInVN on August 24, 2021 7:26AM1 -
BalticBlues✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭[snip]
Play a Templar Turtle yourself if you think it is OP.
Looking into my kill logs, I certainly see other classes on top.
[edited for baiting]Edited by ZOS_Icy on August 24, 2021 11:14AM7 -
Curious_Death✭✭✭✭✭The scaling for backlash is way too much right now. It would be fine if backlash was dodgable or blockable, but it isnt at all. The only way for you to mitigate it is by cleansing it entirely which many classes don't have access to, or avoid taking enough damage for it to build up. But good players will just stack a bunch of DoTs on you and use radiant oppression and basically still build up the damage easily even if you run away.
This screenshot shows how much damage I took from purifying light after only taking 15.3k damage (most of them from DoTs). Before anyone tells me to stack more mitigation, yes I already have good mitigation with 26k armor and major evasion. You can see that by looking at his jab damage, which only did 1.4k per tick, and his burning light, which only did 2.7. A squishy build would take 2k jab ticks and 3k+ burning light ticks. Normally that kind of damage can usually be healed through, but the scaling of new backlash means you literally have to run away if someone puts backlash on you, because even the slightest amount of damage will build up for a fat proc.
I think a good solution that does not affect PvE is allowing backlash to be blocked or roll dodged.
REALLY? now post how much hits blastbones with same WD/SD... the problem with templar is only one - they can "hide" lightattack in jabs without animation that increases DPS potential and burst potential... but backslash is atm nearly on same lvl as necros blastbones... dont even mention Subterranean Assault which hits like backslash ... 2 times with 3 sec CD !!!4 -
MadeInVN✭✭✭✭BalticBlues wrote: »[snip]
Play a Templar Turtle yourself if you think it is OP.
Looking into my kill logs, I certainly see other classes on top.
I play a templar. I also fought against top tier templars on PC NA, all of which have agreed the skill is broken. I have also seen a significantly more amount of templar usage from high mmr BG players, both stam and mag.
[snip]
[edited to remove quote & for baiting]Edited by ZOS_Icy on August 24, 2021 11:18AM0 -
MadeInVN✭✭✭✭Curious_Death wrote: »The scaling for backlash is way too much right now. It would be fine if backlash was dodgable or blockable, but it isnt at all. The only way for you to mitigate it is by cleansing it entirely which many classes don't have access to, or avoid taking enough damage for it to build up. But good players will just stack a bunch of DoTs on you and use radiant oppression and basically still build up the damage easily even if you run away.
This screenshot shows how much damage I took from purifying light after only taking 15.3k damage (most of them from DoTs). Before anyone tells me to stack more mitigation, yes I already have good mitigation with 26k armor and major evasion. You can see that by looking at his jab damage, which only did 1.4k per tick, and his burning light, which only did 2.7. A squishy build would take 2k jab ticks and 3k+ burning light ticks. Normally that kind of damage can usually be healed through, but the scaling of new backlash means you literally have to run away if someone puts backlash on you, because even the slightest amount of damage will build up for a fat proc.
I think a good solution that does not affect PvE is allowing backlash to be blocked or roll dodged.
REALLY? now post how much hits blastbones with same WD/SD... the problem with templar is only one - they can "hide" lightattack in jabs without animation that increases DPS potential and burst potential... but backslash is atm nearly on same lvl as necros blastbones... dont even mention Subterranean Assault which hits like backslash ... 2 times with 3 sec CD !!!
This patch they are hitting 6k after evasion, and 2k after block.
Backlash hits for 8-9k thru block. Your point?0 -
MadeInVN✭✭✭✭Since I can’t seem to get my point across, here’s a simpler way:
If anyone is playing on PC NA, I will gladly hop on my magplar and duel any of you, just to demonstrate my point. Just friendly duels, no ill wills or salts. If anyone takes on this offer, please slot purge, streak, use line of sight, cloak, whatever you guys have suggested to me.
I will record the duel, blur your name, and post it on this thread for everyone to decide whether it’s an actual concern, or just me wanting to nerf everything.0
