Backlash buff was too much and needs to be toned down (PvP perspective)

M0R_Gaming

MadeInVN wrote: »

You can watch it in HD now. It just finished processing.

Ok, thank you for uploading the video, and I can see your point. However, the video also provides that it is about the same amount of damage as plenty of other delayed bursts.

I agree that it is a very large unblockable burst, but based on the numbers I saw, I believe that it isn't too above what to normally expect from a delayed burst, especially when we consider that said burst is 6 seconds long.

If it were to be toned down, I would say at most, it should be toned down by like 5-10%.

Qrähe

MadeInVN wrote: »

Qrähe wrote: »

I don't get the video, is it a how long can I survive without fighting?

The video shows how everyone's "advice" to tell me to block/roll dodge/heal/apply pressure/ doesn't freaking matter. It's pointless advice because I already know how to do it. The video shows my point about how broken PL is after the buff. The video shows how all the "counters" people told me above are actually meaningless because a good opponent also knows about those counters. The video shows that people on the forums in general have no clue what they are talking about

But no. You showed a made up situation that doesn't exist. He has no pressure on him, no drain on his resources. You showed that it takes forever to kill someone with that without having to even apply pressure. I'd say all you did was convince me backlash is fine.

MadeInVN

M0R_Gaming wrote: »

MadeInVN wrote: »

You can watch it in HD now. It just finished processing.

Ok, thank you for uploading the video, and I can see your point. However, the video also provides that it is about the same amount of damage as plenty of other delayed bursts.

I agree that it is a very large unblockable burst, but based on the numbers I saw, I believe that it isn't too above what to normally expect from a delayed burst, especially when we consider that said burst is 6 seconds long.

If it were to be toned down, I would say at most, it should be toned down by like 5-10%.

My point was strictly about how it's too easy to build up damage, even if you don't cast 4 sets of jabs for example. I demonstrated that multiple times with the screenshot of my friend spamming light attacks at range, or this video showing an actual fight. I also demonstrated how the counters people tell me to do are ineffective because of the nature of this ability. I have fought many necros and wardens, and their combos are REALLY telegraphed and you can avoid most of their dmg by blocking. I can always make another video showing a duel vs those classes, but that would be for another time.

MadeInVN

Qrähe wrote: »

MadeInVN wrote: »

Qrähe wrote: »

I don't get the video, is it a how long can I survive without fighting?

The video shows how everyone's "advice" to tell me to block/roll dodge/heal/apply pressure/ doesn't freaking matter. It's pointless advice because I already know how to do it. The video shows my point about how broken PL is after the buff. The video shows how all the "counters" people told me above are actually meaningless because a good opponent also knows about those counters. The video shows that people on the forums in general have no clue what they are talking about

But no. You showed a made up situation that doesn't exist. He has no pressure on him, no drain on his resources. You showed that it takes forever to kill someone with that without having to even apply pressure. I'd say all you did was convince me backlash is fine.

So can you duel him and show me if you do better?

Joy_Division

MadeInVN wrote: »

Here is the screenshot of that duel. He did 34 ticks of jabs, or 8.5 times over a 2 minutes 5 seconds duel. That's equivalent to me hitting 8 dizzies over the course of 2 minutes. He was basically playing from range and only jabbing once in a while.

Tell me how you think I should have played this out, if you think I wasn't healing/blocking/rolling?

It was hard for me to see the video because it had a low resolution (at least it did for me), so I had trouble seeing your health bar.

My gut feeling looking at the fight is that it was even matched in the beginning and then your opponent took the initiative and thus you were reacting a lot, which usually spells trouble. I mentioned in previous posts I think copying 50% is too much damage, so I do agree with that. If you're getting hit for an average of 7K backlashes I can certainty see why you began to play defensively.

I don't know what your opponent used or your gear, but they aren't using dual wield (or at least it looks like they are using a fire staff; DW is a noticeable increase in damage) and is still hitting you hard independent of Backlash. 10K crescent, 1.2K Solar Barrage, 3.8K toppling are quite respectable, though my perspective may be clouded because most of my time playing templar has been pre CP 2.0. You've even got evasion up a lot. My impression is that for this build, you tried to rely more on your experience and skill as ESO to avoid damage as opposed to the game's passive mechanics like resistance, % mitigation, etc. Though you are using evasion, which makes the numbers above that much mroe respectable. Your opponent knows what they are doing, which I think is a key factor here. So I'm not sure how much dodging or rolling is going to help since those forms of defense aren't as effective Vs magplars as other classes. I think Backlash was hitting too hard, but I also think whatever test build you used here needs more attention to (passive) defense. So a combination.

I don;t think your opponent meant to play from range. 15 toppling charges and only connecting on 34 jabs (as opposed to potentially 60 if jabs immediately follow a charge) suggests they wanted to stay up tight (as does running barrage), but as mentioned above, you did a pretty good job at using streak and mobility to keep breaking contact. I'm not sure you could have done much better in this regard.

Generally I don't think day 1 after a patch drops is the best time to make an evaluation. I'd wait to get a sense for how much Backlash usually hits for and also see what things like Frags, Relentless Focus, Blastbones, etc., hit for. My gut is the sweetspot for backlash is lower than 50%, though I thought that when the PTs came out.

MadeInVN

Joy_Division wrote: »

MadeInVN wrote: »

Here is the screenshot of that duel. He did 34 ticks of jabs, or 8.5 times over a 2 minutes 5 seconds duel. That's equivalent to me hitting 8 dizzies over the course of 2 minutes. He was basically playing from range and only jabbing once in a while.

Tell me how you think I should have played this out, if you think I wasn't healing/blocking/rolling?

It was hard for me to see the video because it had a low resolution (at least it did for me), so I had trouble seeing your health bar.

My gut feeling looking at the fight is that it was even matched in the beginning and then your opponent took the initiative and thus you were reacting a lot, which usually spells trouble. I mentioned in previous posts I think copying 50% is too much damage, so I do agree with that. If you're getting hit for an average of 7K backlashes I can certainty see why you began to play defensively.

I don't know what your opponent used or your gear, but they aren't using dual wield (which is a noticeable increase in damage) and is still hitting you hard independent of Backlash. 10K crescent, 1.2K Solar Barrage, 3.8K toppling are quite respectable, though my perspective may be clouded because most of my time playing templar has been pre CP 2.0. You've even got evasion up a lot. My impression is that for this build, you tried to rely more on your experience and skill as ESO to avoid damage as opposed to the game's passive mechanics like resistance, % mitigation, etc. So I'm not sure how much dodging or rolling is going to help since those forms of defense aren't as effective Vs magplars as other classes. I think Backlash was hitting too hard, but I also think whatever test build you used here needs more attention to (passive) defense. So a combination.

I don;t think your opponent meant to play from range. 15 toppling charges and only connecting on 34 jabs (as opposed to potentially 60 if jabs immediately follow a charge) suggests they wanted to stay up tight (as does running barrage), but as mentioned above, you did a pretty good job at using streak and mobility to keep breaking contact. I'm not sure you could have done much better in this regard.

Generally I don't think day 1 after a patch drops is the best time to make an evaluation. I'd wait to get a sense for how much Backlash usually hits for and also see what things like Frags, Relentless Focus, Blastbones, etc. My gut is the sweetspot for backlash is lower than 50% copied damage, though I do think the sort of high health but not much passive resistance approach is a contributing factor in what's going on in the video.

Thanks for giving me an actual response.

You are correct, we are pretty evenly match. In fact, we were pretty even last patch and could trade blows with each other. After this backlash buff, I had to play super defensive because the proc would drop 1/3 of my HP compared to maybe 1/6. However, this wasn't the first time I've experienced this amount of backlash dmg. If you remember when backlash was bugged and stored more damage than it should be, I was getting hit for around this much dmg as well. I've gotten used to dueling magplars so it's a natural reaction for me to anticipate their stun and react in time. It doesn't always work due to server lag, but it usually works.

I am in a semi full damage build for this particular build, while my friend was in full damage. If I wanted to survive this damage, I would have to wear pariah and stack 3 resistance CPs. But do you think I should have to do that to survive? I would not do any damage to him, and I am forced to wear tanky sets if I wanted to survive at all. It limits build diversity for me, and I think it's problematic for everyone in general.

My friend told me he played at range by not casting a lot of melee damage to prove a point. He was essentially countering my attempts to streak and break distance by spamming light attacks and toppling charge. I can only block so much before I run out of stamina. Evasion was pretty much useless here as most of his damage was single target, meaning I had to roll dodge a lot to avoid the light attacks and toppling charge. There were several instances where my friend was loaded with AoE dots and basically spammed toppling and light attacks until I got stunned. You can see that at around 0:15 seconds in the video.

What I'm trying to say is good players know all the counters of each class and will play mind game to catch other people off guard. That's why I tried to bait him into pressuring me by not healing as much. He's a good player, he will hold block if I try to do damage to him. But if I am confident in my ability to survive, I can bait him into being offensive and sneak in my own combo, which I did several times in the video.

I am glad you are one of the few people with an objective view in this thread. Most people who've responded to me think they know better. I'm sure they would not survive as long as I did if they were to fight him, and I don't mean that to be offensive. But I think when people try to tell others what to do without knowing about their PvP experience, it comes off as a bit of elitist and derails the whole thread.

gariondavey

Saw you tag me. My comments on the lack of healing was from your initial screenshot.
Saw your video. Yes, it hits hard. It is a delayed damage move. People get hit for blastbones and shalks and frags of this amount, and those don't require putting in the damage initially.
A necro crit blastbones + fear + gy synergy will delete anyone.
A stamden shalks + db + spin will do the same.
A magsorc curse + endless fury + frags + streak wil do the same.
Nb fear trap into relentless focus + surprise attack.
The list goes on.
The damage is similar in these like joy division said.
Backlash requires much more than simply casting and walking away.
It doesn't stack damage too fast, as other delayed damage moves are equal, if not better. As I've said before, if you are ok with those other abilities existing, then you shouldn't have an issue with backlash.
Hope these words reach you. I'm not going to discuss more with you. Take care.

MadeInVN

gariondavey wrote: »

Saw you tag me. My comments on the lack of healing was from your initial screenshot.
Saw your video. Yes, it hits hard. It is a delayed damage move. People get hit for blastbones and shalks and frags of this amount, and those don't require putting in the damage initially.
A necro crit blastbones + fear + gy synergy will delete anyone.
A stamden shalks + db + spin will do the same.
A magsorc curse + endless fury + frags + streak wil do the same.
Nb fear trap into relentless focus + surprise attack.
The list goes on.
The damage is similar in these like joy division said.
Backlash requires much more than simply casting and walking away.
It doesn't stack damage too fast, as other delayed damage moves are equal, if not better. As I've said before, if you are ok with those other abilities existing, then you shouldn't have an issue with backlash.
Hope these words reach you. I'm not going to discuss more with you. Take care.

Blastbones: can be blocked and mitigated by evasion
Shalks: can be moved out, blocked, and mitigated by evasion
Bow proc: can be roll dodged and blocked
Bound Armaments: can be roll dodged and blocked
Curse: Can only be cleansed
Backlash: Can only be cleansed or denied dmg stacking

Most of them have easy counters except for curse and backlash. And even then backlash right now is better than curse. I can always show you different fights against magsorcs, wardens, necros, and nbs. Those are not even remotely as difficult as a magplar duel for my class. But since you already showed the intention to stop further discussion, I wish you luck.

Abyssmol

MadeInVN wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

Saw you tag me. My comments on the lack of healing was from your initial screenshot.
Saw your video. Yes, it hits hard. It is a delayed damage move. People get hit for blastbones and shalks and frags of this amount, and those don't require putting in the damage initially.
A necro crit blastbones + fear + gy synergy will delete anyone.
A stamden shalks + db + spin will do the same.
A magsorc curse + endless fury + frags + streak wil do the same.
Nb fear trap into relentless focus + surprise attack.
The list goes on.
The damage is similar in these like joy division said.
Backlash requires much more than simply casting and walking away.
It doesn't stack damage too fast, as other delayed damage moves are equal, if not better. As I've said before, if you are ok with those other abilities existing, then you shouldn't have an issue with backlash.
Hope these words reach you. I'm not going to discuss more with you. Take care.

Blastbones: can be blocked and mitigated by evasion
Shalks: can be moved out, blocked, and mitigated by evasion
Bow proc: can be roll dodged and blocked
Bound Armaments: can be roll dodged and blocked
Curse: Can only be cleansed
Backlash: Can only be cleansed or denied dmg stacking

Most of them have easy counters except for curse and backlash. And even then backlash right now is better than curse. I can always show you different fights against magsorcs, wardens, necros, and nbs. Those are not even remotely as difficult as a magplar duel for my class. But since you already showed the intention to stop further discussion, I wish you luck.

I couldn't stand it anymore, and I had to log in to clear your misinformation campaign. Almost every single Templar ability can be mitigated by evasion. While a Templar is trying to build damage for the explosion, every attack is being mitigated by evasion. So what's your point about blastbones mitigated by evasion. Blastbones is a superior skill - could be cast every 3 seconds, don't have to build any damage, don't have to worry about purge, keep your enemy defile. It's a skill that you cast every 3 second, does a ton of damage without any requirement.... you are so biased in this discussion that's not even funny. Backlash should be stronger than blastbones or subassalt but it isn't. The skill takes a lot more effort to build the damage, takes 6 seconds to do the damage, and in the 6 seconds period damage is mitigated by all methods you mention above.

MadeInVN

I also don't think people understand that the reason why backlash takes 6 seconds to build up is because it's literally unblockable. I can block 2 sub assaults/blastbones within 6 seconds and have it barely dent my HP. I can't block backlash. The only way to avoid backlash build up is to avoid taking damage all together. But this video shows you how a good opponent will counter your attempt to deny them from building up the damage.

https://youtu.be/5gvWM8PXmGA


Honestly I think I'm going to ask for people who argue against me to give some form of proof, either with a screenshot or a video. It's ridiculous when I'm the only one to give proof to back up my claims but every counter argument against me have nothing to back them up. Provide physical proof, or I won't take your arguments seriously.

Folkb

Leet pvper dies to a reworked skill. News at 11.

techyeshic

Still hits half as hard as some AOE procs

techprince

MadeInVN wrote: »

The scaling for backlash is way too much right now. It would be fine if backlash was dodgable or blockable, but it isnt at all. The only way for you to mitigate it is by cleansing it entirely which many classes don't have access to, or avoid taking enough damage for it to build up. But good players will just stack a bunch of DoTs on you and use radiant oppression and basically still build up the damage easily even if you run away.



This screenshot shows how much damage I took from purifying light after only taking 15.3k damage (most of them from DoTs). Before anyone tells me to stack more mitigation, yes I already have good mitigation with 26k armor and major evasion. You can see that by looking at his jab damage, which only did 1.4k per tick, and his burning light, which only did 2.7. A squishy build would take 2k jab ticks and 3k+ burning light ticks. Normally that kind of damage can usually be healed through, but the scaling of new backlash means you literally have to run away if someone puts backlash on you, because even the slightest amount of damage will build up for a fat proc.

I think a good solution that does not affect PvE is allowing backlash to be blocked or roll dodged.


EDIT: A lot of people think I didn't play correctly against these templars and it's a l2p issue, so I've included a video of an actual duel against my friend, a top tier magplar on PC NA. If you think you can do better than me, I would like you to duel my friend and show me.

https://youtu.be/5gvWM8PXmGA

So whats the problem? you have streak. "Why are overloaded abilities a bad thing ? And why will anyone play a class if it's not strong ?" thats what people said in streak thread right?

Pevey

Zos should just take away all the skills from every class and make everyone just light attack. That would be balanced.

/s

Defending

Before engaging into too much individual class versus class (1v1) discussions it is no doubt that the OP made and supported his arguments well. More consideration is reasonably desirable for unblockable damage.

While it may be overlooked in the recent ongoing response variations of either “I am more experienced/X skill does better/You should do X” posts —

I will just like to take a step back and point out that the buff to Backlash is intended (am fairly certain) and necessary to increase the reliability of the skill.

In Cyrodiil and even Battlegrounds sustained damage / jabs from a magplar on a single target was almost non-existent and unreliable partly due to “lag” (hence the low popularity when other magicka classes can apply the same pressure from ranged without going into melee and hoping all your jabs register).

Which is why I believe the developers will have tested and concluded 50% is a good number to hover on due to the unreliability of the skill.

However I can agree with the OP on that specifically in 1v1 more consideration should be given to the tuning of the skill.

50% Buff to Backlash may not be the ideal number to balance between damage and the reliability of the skill.

Lumsdenml

The only thing this thread made me do was create a new magplar for pvp....

MadeInVN

Defending wrote: »

Before engaging into too much individual class versus class (1v1) discussions it is no doubt that the OP made and supported his arguments well. More consideration is reasonably desirable for unblockable damage.

While it may be overlooked in the recent ongoing response variations of either “I am more experienced/X skill does better/You should do X” posts —

I will just like to take a step back and point out that the buff to Backlash is intended (am fairly certain) and necessary to increase the reliability of the skill.

In Cyrodiil and even Battlegrounds sustained damage / jabs from a magplar on a single target was almost non-existent and unreliable partly due to “lag” (hence the low popularity when other magicka classes can apply the same pressure from ranged without going into melee and hoping all your jabs register).

Which is why I believe the developers will have tested and concluded 50% is a good number to hover on due to the unreliability of the skill.

However I can agree with the OP on that specifically in 1v1 more consideration should be given to the tuning of the skill.

50% Buff to Backlash may not be the ideal number to balance between damage and the reliability of the skill.

Your point about the reliability of the skill is understandable. I think in many situations the skill can definitely be unreliable, and the 50% dmg copy helps it perform better as a delayed burst.

However, it is the fact that ZOS also made it scale with weapon/spell damage and positive buffs that turned it into an overtuned ability. Now you have a delayed burst that is not only reliable, but regularly hits for 8-10k damage. Blastbones at its current state do not hit for more than 8k damage against a decently built player. Not to mention it is an AoE ability, which naturally has a better tooltip scaling in the first place.

Using the same build against a magplar, I only take around 8k crit blastbones from a full damage stamcro. A templar can hit 8k non crit backlash easily, as i've demonstrated plenty in this thread. I think if people want this ability to be reliable, then the damage needs to be toned down a bit.

ResidentContrarian

Lumsdenml wrote: »

The only thing this thread made me do was create a new magplar for pvp....

Was it as super and god-tier as the OP claimed? I think I already know the answer...

Yasha

Defending wrote: »

50% Buff to Backlash may not be the ideal number to balance between damage and the reliability of the skill.

Note that it is a 250% buff to the skill, not a 50% buff. Putting aside whether the skill is now overpowered or not, don't you think that is ridiculous on so many levels?

GRXRG

Just want to contribute to the post saying that everyone defending the skill in its current state is just a PvE and unexperienced PvP player, or a templar main with zero honesty.

Now directly from Zenimax devs, a comment happened lot of patches ago about backlash:

"The copied damage from this ability and its morphs is now increased by 50% against other player characters, reduced from 100%.
Developer Comment: We want to see Backlash as a burst damage ability that you can use in solo PvE or PvP content. To accomplish this, we increased the amount of copied damage. This increase is higher in Cyrodiil to account for both Battle Spirit and the play styles of enemies; enemy players are much harder to hit with 5 seconds of unhindered attacks.
Making the damage unblockable ensures it behaves consistently when compared to Daedric Curse. Both those abilities are similar in functionality and how they thematically apply their damage. This also ensures that Backlash is not double penalized by block, since some of the damage it copies will likely be blocked or avoided by enemies seeking to minimize Backlash's final attack. Hitting the maximum damage limit against another player now requires a significant amount of uninhibited damage from the Templar, and enemies will have more counterplay in reducing Backlash's burst damage if they actively mitigate or avoid damage.
Changing Backlash's final damage so it no longer critically strikes prevents the Templar from reaching the damage cap too easily with a high Critical Strike rating."

Backlash was used to do 7k 8k damage lot of patches ago, probably more than a year, and finally one day in a patch, they nerfed it like it deserved.
In this last patch for some reason they completely reverted that change and made it even more broken than it used to be, because of the new powercreep that happens in mmo after years.

Read especially the BOLD PART, what the Devs did say.
Now instead as the OP showed us, just few dots and light attacks can get you the maximum burst so easily.

The ability needs an adjustment asap.

MadeInVN

GRXRG wrote: »

Just want to contribute to the post saying that everyone defending the skill in its current state is just a PvE and unexperienced PvP player, or a templar main with zero honesty.

Now directly from Zenimax devs, a comment happened lot of patches ago about backlash:

"The copied damage from this ability and its morphs is now increased by 50% against other player characters, reduced from 100%.
Developer Comment: We want to see Backlash as a burst damage ability that you can use in solo PvE or PvP content. To accomplish this, we increased the amount of copied damage. This increase is higher in Cyrodiil to account for both Battle Spirit and the play styles of enemies; enemy players are much harder to hit with 5 seconds of unhindered attacks.
Making the damage unblockable ensures it behaves consistently when compared to Daedric Curse. Both those abilities are similar in functionality and how they thematically apply their damage. This also ensures that Backlash is not double penalized by block, since some of the damage it copies will likely be blocked or avoided by enemies seeking to minimize Backlash's final attack. Hitting the maximum damage limit against another player now requires a significant amount of uninhibited damage from the Templar, and enemies will have more counterplay in reducing Backlash's burst damage if they actively mitigate or avoid damage.
Changing Backlash's final damage so it no longer critically strikes prevents the Templar from reaching the damage cap too easily with a high Critical Strike rating."

Backlash was used to do 7k 8k damage lot of patches ago, probably more than a year, and finally one day in a patch, they nerfed it like it deserved.
In this last patch for some reason they completely reverted that change and made it even more broken than it used to be, because of the new powercreep that happens in mmo after years.

Read especially the BOLD PART, what the Devs did say.
Now instead as the OP showed us, just few dots and light attacks can get you the maximum burst so easily.

The ability needs an adjustment asap.

Bravo! Someone finally got the point.

Jackey

I want to know how strong this makes the average templars in Cyrodiil.
Like we saw during the tank meta, anyone could pick up a stamden or stamcro and be good. Is this now the case with templars?

I can't look for myself yet because I don't have the patch.

the1andonlyskwex

As far as I can tell, the copied damage could be 10000% and it still wouldn't be significantly better than Haunting Curse.

As-is, I think the damage copy mechanic pretty much only exists to discourage PvE healers and tanks from using it (probably to increase the "group utility" of templar DPS).

ResidentContrarian

GRXRG wrote: »

Read especially the BOLD PART, what the Devs did say.
Now instead as the OP showed us, just few dots and light attacks can get you the maximum burst so easily.

The ability needs an adjustment asap.

So you think its bad that DoTs and light attacks that would otherwise be ignored can no longer be ignored and have to be actively defended against in addition to direct damage attacks? That is literally the crux of your and his argument for nerfing a skill that still isn't as good as BB/SA/Shalks IMO, and I challenge you or the dev team to explain how it's any different from another skill that does delayed damage, esp. when those skills hit harder on everyone in Cyrodiil not using a tanky-burst build and pretending to be a pro because they were carried by their builds.

Reading the bold part, I don't reach the same conclusion that you do.

I don't think it's a problem and I use glass builds that don't have a lot of hp, and they don't run purge. That says a lot about the skill, or "skill" if you want to put it that way.

Whenever someone uses the skill, I simply roll because they almost always attempt toppling, move in an arc to their side, attack back and they cannot keep the pressure up like he claims without having to respond to attacks that I make on them. With only major evasion and one immobolize I can do that and avoid a huge burst from the skill, yet a stam sorc cannot do it? Stam sorc has the tools do the same in class, but my guess is they don't think its worth slotting them -- kinda like I don't think magelight is worth slotting. Build decisions.

Tell me, how is it the case a glass build user can do this and manage even multiple users of the skill, but a "pro" in an armored one cannot? You know the answer...but if you do not yet, I will spell it out for you:

Either this guy and others are mad the skill encroaches on their 1vX, which is still possible despite being tagged with this skill -- yeah I can verify myself that the skill doesn't matter much, as can others that play -- OR this is simply all a production OR something I can't say without a warning.

The buff on paper is such a huuuuuuuge number - what a silly and dishonest statement.

Prior to the patch, no one even slotted that light skill because it would routinely hit for only 2k-3k crit even vs. me on my glass mag builds with only 8k resistances. In fact, it was so useless only meme templars slotted the skill because it was better to slot nearly any other attack or buff in that slot unless you wanted the secondary effects which weren't and still aren't that impressive.

For its cost the skill was trash, and honestly, even now I still wouldn't slot it on my magplar. Stamplar, maybe, due to a lack of good skills and because of a reason that has to do with overall mag-stam balance in the game.

Now, to claim that it's overbuffed because it's brought in line with other class burst damage is beyond silly when I can get people with 12k+ delayed burst on other classes.

In fact, I think it's more balanced than the skills on other classes because you always have the option of simply gaining distance and rolling to avoid a templar's damage completely. Templar still doesn't have the same power as spamming SA, BB, etc. and his claim that "major evasion exists to lower BB and SA" or in other words, passive mitigation, is simply a detraction from the point that he refuses to actively defend in battle because his build either cannot do it or he doesn't want to. Those are build decisions no matter how you or anyone else tries to slice it.

In a patch where a single heavy attack can do ridiculous damage to most people in PvP, to say a skill that requires avoidable and reduceable build up to burst is out of line or overperforming is simply ridiculous and not an honest conclusion to make.

I am sure the OP and others that agree the skill is too buffed probably don't like anything that punishes passive mitigation or goes through it. They don't like it because that means they have to play the game like everyone else and not hold the block button + heal through damage for a majority of fights.

I get it, your power fantasy was shattered. But please, be honest and stop pretending the skill is god-mode. This is literally on the same level as the complaints about weakness to elements change being godly...

Changes that happen in the game won't always favor you because you want them to, and that's how it should be. Nearly every patch in the game hasn't favored me, and yet I don't really care or foam over it because I know the game will never be balanced in my vision and that I, my build, and what I want, is not the end-all and only path that should be taken.

That's why I will continue to refute these arguments that appear on the forums like this. Someone has to set reality straight.

fred4

This is going to be super anecdotal, but the first magplar I ran into, this patch, had built extremely tanky for open world (CP IC). I am a super squishy nightblade with Caluurion and Thunder Caller and I only hit him for about 2.5K with each when I first encountered him. I am not super high spell damage, only about 4.8K, but those numbers were pathetic. So what I think happened there is that this guy built very tanky for open world, probably relying on getting decent damage from Purifying Light, but not great damage. I checked one instance in the log. He hit me for 5.7K with it and I am as squishy as they come. He was in a duo with a DK and we had a 2v2. It was fairly even. He could be killed, even though he appeared situationally so tanky (it always depends on buff-state, right?). We won one of those fights. I didn't give him much of a chance to put much damage into me, I guess. I also got exposed in some fights today, not sure if it was against him, but spamming Healing Ward a few times was surprisingly effective. Everyone feels a bit tankier, including me. This is super early day 1 anecdotal stuff, but anyway ... for what it's worth. I'm obviously not fussed ... yet. That could change.

Alchimiste1

These "just slot purge" comments are a result of what happens when zos bans 90% of the people who actually know what they are talking about on the forums.

Mizael

maxjapank wrote: »

Templars get something comparable to Haunted Curse Blastbones, and Shalks, but still have to work towards the damage. And someone is unhappy that a class that might not have given them a problem before, is suddenly more difficult. Learn to adapt before rushing to the forums on day 1.

This, it can be purged and you need to do damage to get it tick good. If you want this to be nerfed then nerf shalks, blastbone, crystal frag proc, 3th stack flame whip and relentess focus... at that point we can talk about it.

Kryptonite_Kent

To sum up the entire content of this post.... anyone who doesnt agree with everything the OP says is a dumb noob and all his friends who are top tier leet god mode pvp players agree with him too... what a clown show lol

notyuu

MadeInVN wrote: »

DTStormfox wrote: »

I don't know. ~9k damage from an ability that has to charge for 6 seconds seems fine to me. And it also is very obvious when it will proc the burst, so you can (probably) easily out-heal it at the right moment.

That's not the problem. The problem is it's unblockable and undodgable. There is no counterplay to it.

it's purgable and hyper visible so when you get it on you, flip to defensive play to minimise the damage you get blasted with when it finally goes off (or purge it, or kill the templar)

ExistingRug61

I have two points to make on this. The first is a more general one regarding counters and the second regards the specific changes to backlash itself.


Firstly, there seems to have been quite a bit of discussion and points made by the OP and others about how the fact that backlash has minimal counters as it is undodgeable and unblockable damage. I am not really convinced that this feature is an issue, at least in isolation. In my experience people generally seem to consider a skill counterable if its effect can be minimised or reduced by the general defensive actions of cycling buffs, keeping up HoTs, kiting, and blocking and/or dodge rolling at the right time to avoid burst. And if a skill somehow isn't really mitigated by these then it is "hard to counter" and often people complain about it. In my opinion, I don't see a reason why certain skills shouldn't require more specific counters than the previously mentioned general actions. There are other examples, especially this patch with the changes to cloak and also things like streak and also historically skills like DK wings (which I miss, despite rarely playing DK and more often playing a magblade which was fairly hard countered by wings)

The existence of more specific counter skills or strategies, as opposed to the general ones simply always working, means that a player needs to know the exact right thing to do or skill to use in these scenarios, instead of using the same defensive strategy regardless of their opponent. It also becomes a factor of build design and skill choices. Maybe you can't fit in all the counters so it becomes a opportunity cost decision about which ones you fit in. Obviously this leads to occasions where you can experience a bad matchup based on your opponents class or build, and I understand some players don't seem to like this - they want their build to be maximum strength regardless of opponent, or to always have the answer. I am not of this opinion. I like that sometimes you may have good or bad matchups. It means fights are different and varied. I find it more interesting.

So to that end I don't see the undodgeable and unblockable feature of backlash as an problem, rather I think I would say I like it. It gives the skill, and templars, a niche strength that differentiates them from other classes. And it still does have counters, just not as readily available ones; burst healing proactively instead of reactively, using shields to absorb it, avoiding the damage buildup instead of backlash itself, or as others have mentioned purge, or perhaps the best one - force the templar onto the defensive to prevent damage build up, as in my experience templars can have difficulty getting back on offence after being forced into defence. And I understand that none of these are perfect counters or available to everyone and may be hard to do. I accept the OPs experience as a player and his description of why backlash is difficult to counter. I just don't automatically conclude that this makes it a problem. It just makes it different. I think the OP is a good enough player that he could find a way to deal with backlash as it is now. It just might take some different build choice. I am not saying I have the best solution for his build, but given his experience he will find something that works.


Secondly, lets objectively look at the changes to backlash that actually happened this patch.
1) Backlash was already undodgeable and unblockable, so no change here. DIdn't seem to be a problem before, so don't see why this should be changed. (also combined with my above point)
2) Scaling of maximum damage changed from magicka/stamina to spell/weapon damage. This meant the maximum scales more easily if you use damage meaning a higher maximum can be reached. However, according to players on the PTS, the backlash maximum damage was also changed to be subject to battle spirit, whereas previously it did not. Which basically counteracts the scaling change in a PvP environment. (happy to be corrected if this is incorrect as I haven't been able to specifically test this myself)
3) Stored damage build up was change from 20% to 50%. Obviously this means its more easy to reach the maximum.

So the only real change I see is that it is now easier to build to full damage. This is the only thing that I could maybe see could be tweaked a bit. But even then, I can't say that for certain until I get more experience playing against it. I am happy to suck it and see. And if it is too strong and means templars have their day in the sun for a bit, all power to them.