Backlash buff was too much and needs to be toned down (PvP perspective)

MadeInVN

gariondavey wrote: »

Also, I know the magplar who attacked you. They are easily one of the best in the game. He bodies pretty much everyone, even before backlash changes.
I noticed you didn't actually refute my points other than saying you know how to play.
The recap paints a picture in which you were out of position and don't heal or respond accordingly.
Additionally, as I mentioned before, your health seems low.

Oh btw, the two mag plars in the screenshots are Shoyrus and Shoddy. I know both of them and have fought them plenty. They are very good plars, but they would agree backlash is broken.

My HP in both screenshots are 38k. If that’s low to you, idk what is lol

itscompton

fred4 wrote: »

itscompton wrote: »

Kill the Templar in less than six seconds when they try to pressure you. Problem solved.

I think this is possibly an underrated comment, because it sounds flippant. For what it's worth I tend to believe the OP. However, while I've had no chance to play / test myself yet, Backlash doesn't seem to be the only insane thing about this patch. I will be trying two instant (or near instant) proc sets on my magblade, Caluurion + Hrothgar or Caluurion + Thunder Caller. I also think the medium armor changes are buffing the crap out of Acuity builds, for example stamblades. I haven't thought about other classes yet, but I think nightblades will have a realistic chance of killing magplars, before they can do anything. Whether that is something you want is a different story. I am also talking open world, not a duel where the templar could stand and block until the nightblade shows itself. If the magplar is smart, they will IMO run Restoring Focus for the stam sustain instead of wearing something like Amber Plasm, at least if they are not using Mist Form. A great tool to allow waiting with block up (or sprinting) without cutting off your stam regen. (My) magplar actually feels faster than some of my stam builds, because Restoring Focus + Race Against Time + sprint at "no cost" makes for such a good combination. Incidentally, wouldn't Mist Form at the right moment be a way to mitigate Backlash that we have not mentioned yet?

Like templars, nightblades now appear to require specific counterplay against Cloak, e.g. just having Solar Barrage on would no longer appear to work, although spamming Sweeps will. Having Curse or Backlash on you is something that's been really annoying on a nightblade trying to stay hidden, although not usually life-threatening. Now I am afraid. I agree with the cost argument against Purge, although I do find it viable on magblades who may manage their magicka by disengaging. Whether that will make for satisfying gameplay, I'm not sure.

I admit I was being a bit flippant with the wording of the remark but I am actually earnest in the sentiment.
There are already quite a few FOMO people who have started running StamPlars in Cyro on PS in anticipation of this buff. And I find on my Magsorc the best defense against them is truly to go offensive.
When I start a fight with a Stamplar I put down deadric mines, cast a shield, then apply curse and at that point they've usually hit me with POTL, gap closed me and are jabbing away. I don't try to escape, just staying toe to toe while I kite them around my mines, weaving LA+Crushing shock and firing procced frags. They usually are so wrapped up in trying to burst me down they don't pay attention to their own health bar and die before they realize they need to stop attacking to cast a heal for themselves.

danno8

Joy_Division wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

MadeInVN wrote: »

The scaling for backlash is way too much right now. It would be fine if backlash was dodgable or blockable, but it isnt at all. The only way for you to mitigate it is by cleansing it entirely which many classes don't have access to, or avoid taking enough damage for it to build up. But good players will just stack a bunch of DoTs on you and use radiant oppression and basically still build up the damage easily even if you run away.



This screenshot shows how much damage I took from purifying light after only taking 15.3k damage (most of them from DoTs). Before anyone tells me to stack more mitigation, yes I already have good mitigation with 26k armor and major evasion. You can see that by looking at his jab damage, which only did 1.4k per tick, and his burning light, which only did 2.7. A squishy build would take 2k jab ticks and 3k+ burning light ticks. Normally that kind of damage can usually be healed through, but the scaling of new backlash means you literally have to run away if someone puts backlash on you, because even the slightest amount of damage will build up for a fat proc.

I think a good solution that does not affect PvE is allowing backlash to be blocked or roll dodged.

Dodging it isn't the solution. Stored damage isn't supposed to be dodgeble and besides there are going to be times when you can;t dodge (which is why we keep running into proc set issues, ZOS thinks as long as some sort of counterplay exists, then it;s ok to make OP sets).

Anyone who has used this skill for any length of time will know what's in your screenshot shouldn;t happen. Either something is bugged or ZOS overcompensated trying to make something weak into something decent, which they are prone to do.

I havent read the patch notes closely, but I thought I read this is only supposed to store 50% of the damage done. 50% of 15.3 is not 9.7K.

The total damage is 18698 (if you include the initial hit from Backlash) half of that would be 9349, so it's pretty close.

My question would be: Is his mitigation not applying to the explosion? If he has 26k mitigation that should be a reduction of 40% which would bring the explosion down to 5-6k which would be more where I would expect it to be.

It shouldn't. Way way way back when ZOS first redesigned this skill, their logic has always been the mitigation happens during the damage build up phase, that is when the OP is getting jabbed, dotted up, etc. If the burst damage got mitigated again, then that would mean the "double dip" phenomenon that ZOS does not like; they want the game's mechanics to apply once and only once. I remember them saying the intended counterplay was that a player could dodge and block within that six seconds.

The issue here is that ZOS's intention is fine - things should not be mitigated twice - but it's too easy for a templar player to get a 9K+ explosion. There's no way any skill in any game should basically reproduce 1/2 the total damage a player takes in six seconds. Especially since the initial hit of backlash (also really high; that got changed too), is not something I thought was even counted.

And I was right. According to patch note for 2.7.5 "This damage does not contribute to the copied damage delivered at the end of the ability's duration."

From the same patch note regarding ZOS's philosophy:

2.7.5 patch notes wrote:

Making the damage unblockable ensures it behaves consistently when compared to Daedric Curse. Both those abilities are similar in functionality and how they thematically apply their damage. This also ensures that Backlash is not double penalized by block, since some of the damage it copies will likely be blocked or avoided by enemies seeking to minimize Backlash's final attack. Hitting the maximum damage limit against another player now requires a significant amount of uninhibited damage from the Templar, and enemies will have more counterplay in reducing Backlash's burst damage if they actively mitigate or avoid damage.

There's the no double mitigation. The concern here is this part: "Hitting the maximum damage limit against another player now requires a significant amount of uninhibited damage from the Templar," that is no longer true according to the damage recap provided by the OP. It was not a significant amount of damage.

***

The problem with this ability is that it was originally designed as a healer/group/support skill. A healer would put this on a boss, allow the group's DPS to fill the damage pool, and then it would go *boom* while also providing a heal over time. It was a good idea. But good PvE ideas usually mean players who are good enough to act like PvE bosses and are able to fight 4+ players got hit noticeably harder with this skill than other delayed burst damage skills, so ZOS overreacted and made it so only the templar's damage would get copied. This meant the damage would usually be too low because it was never meant to do that. Any templar that has used this skill for years instantly knew this would make the skill weak against decent players, but they didn't listen and not surprisingly that's precisely what happened.

So ZOS overcompensated by going from 20% copied damage (what I think it was, or at least what it was for the many years I used this skill; but don't quote me if this was the case for say 2020) to 50%. That was way too much. It just fits a larger pattern of ZOS over-nerfing and then over-buffing things instead of experimenting to find a sweetspot. I knew reading those patch notes 50% would make the ability too good and I'm surprised they didn't even try 35%. This is a huge problem with the whole PTS philosophy of "we're only going to make changes once during the entire process (i.e., the third week)." It makes it really hard to fine tune things because it's a once and done affair.

Also this perhaps:

"The final explosion now scales off your Spell or Weapon Damage depending on the morph, rather than Magicka or Stamina. The final explosion now also scales with both positive and negative bonuses, rather than only negative ones. Haha Backlash go boom."

And yes, 35% is probably the sweetspot. 20% made the skill do little more than 5k tops if you go all out damage, 50% is clearly too much and I think the above quote is showing that the final explosion can now be positively modified by things that perhaps were not allowed before, like % modifiers etc.

In PvE none of this matters of course. It was easy to max out before.

Sanctum74

MadeInVN wrote: »

So since everyone keeps telling me to “do this do that”, I’ll say this again:

It’s pointless to tell me those because I already do them.

It’s like telling someone who’s played football for years how to throw a football… You aren’t actually discussing the problem I’m bringing up, which is backlash. You are just telling me to do this or do that.

I would prefer people actually tell me why they think it is objectively a fine ability after the buff. That way we can get a more meaningful discussion.

It’s fine because you still have counters to prevent or lessen the damage buildup like block, movement, dodge, los, shields, purge, cc, and offensive abilities to provide pressure. In addition to heals and other defensive abilities depending on the class.

You created a nerf thread so it’s your responsibility to provide proof of why it’s op and not just a video of you standing there refusing to use all the counters that you say you use and just telling us you’re a good player.

Unless you can tell us why all these counters stopped working after 7 years then the only thing we can go on is your video which doesn’t back up your claim.

Joy_Division

danno8 wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

MadeInVN wrote: »

The scaling for backlash is way too much right now. It would be fine if backlash was dodgable or blockable, but it isnt at all. The only way for you to mitigate it is by cleansing it entirely which many classes don't have access to, or avoid taking enough damage for it to build up. But good players will just stack a bunch of DoTs on you and use radiant oppression and basically still build up the damage easily even if you run away.



This screenshot shows how much damage I took from purifying light after only taking 15.3k damage (most of them from DoTs). Before anyone tells me to stack more mitigation, yes I already have good mitigation with 26k armor and major evasion. You can see that by looking at his jab damage, which only did 1.4k per tick, and his burning light, which only did 2.7. A squishy build would take 2k jab ticks and 3k+ burning light ticks. Normally that kind of damage can usually be healed through, but the scaling of new backlash means you literally have to run away if someone puts backlash on you, because even the slightest amount of damage will build up for a fat proc.

I think a good solution that does not affect PvE is allowing backlash to be blocked or roll dodged.

Dodging it isn't the solution. Stored damage isn't supposed to be dodgeble and besides there are going to be times when you can;t dodge (which is why we keep running into proc set issues, ZOS thinks as long as some sort of counterplay exists, then it;s ok to make OP sets).

Anyone who has used this skill for any length of time will know what's in your screenshot shouldn;t happen. Either something is bugged or ZOS overcompensated trying to make something weak into something decent, which they are prone to do.

I havent read the patch notes closely, but I thought I read this is only supposed to store 50% of the damage done. 50% of 15.3 is not 9.7K.

The total damage is 18698 (if you include the initial hit from Backlash) half of that would be 9349, so it's pretty close.

My question would be: Is his mitigation not applying to the explosion? If he has 26k mitigation that should be a reduction of 40% which would bring the explosion down to 5-6k which would be more where I would expect it to be.

It shouldn't. Way way way back when ZOS first redesigned this skill, their logic has always been the mitigation happens during the damage build up phase, that is when the OP is getting jabbed, dotted up, etc. If the burst damage got mitigated again, then that would mean the "double dip" phenomenon that ZOS does not like; they want the game's mechanics to apply once and only once. I remember them saying the intended counterplay was that a player could dodge and block within that six seconds.

The issue here is that ZOS's intention is fine - things should not be mitigated twice - but it's too easy for a templar player to get a 9K+ explosion. There's no way any skill in any game should basically reproduce 1/2 the total damage a player takes in six seconds. Especially since the initial hit of backlash (also really high; that got changed too), is not something I thought was even counted.

And I was right. According to patch note for 2.7.5 "This damage does not contribute to the copied damage delivered at the end of the ability's duration."

From the same patch note regarding ZOS's philosophy:

2.7.5 patch notes wrote:

Making the damage unblockable ensures it behaves consistently when compared to Daedric Curse. Both those abilities are similar in functionality and how they thematically apply their damage. This also ensures that Backlash is not double penalized by block, since some of the damage it copies will likely be blocked or avoided by enemies seeking to minimize Backlash's final attack. Hitting the maximum damage limit against another player now requires a significant amount of uninhibited damage from the Templar, and enemies will have more counterplay in reducing Backlash's burst damage if they actively mitigate or avoid damage.

There's the no double mitigation. The concern here is this part: "Hitting the maximum damage limit against another player now requires a significant amount of uninhibited damage from the Templar," that is no longer true according to the damage recap provided by the OP. It was not a significant amount of damage.

***

The problem with this ability is that it was originally designed as a healer/group/support skill. A healer would put this on a boss, allow the group's DPS to fill the damage pool, and then it would go *boom* while also providing a heal over time. It was a good idea. But good PvE ideas usually mean players who are good enough to act like PvE bosses and are able to fight 4+ players got hit noticeably harder with this skill than other delayed burst damage skills, so ZOS overreacted and made it so only the templar's damage would get copied. This meant the damage would usually be too low because it was never meant to do that. Any templar that has used this skill for years instantly knew this would make the skill weak against decent players, but they didn't listen and not surprisingly that's precisely what happened.

So ZOS overcompensated by going from 20% copied damage (what I think it was, or at least what it was for the many years I used this skill; but don't quote me if this was the case for say 2020) to 50%. That was way too much. It just fits a larger pattern of ZOS over-nerfing and then over-buffing things instead of experimenting to find a sweetspot. I knew reading those patch notes 50% would make the ability too good and I'm surprised they didn't even try 35%. This is a huge problem with the whole PTS philosophy of "we're only going to make changes once during the entire process (i.e., the third week)." It makes it really hard to fine tune things because it's a once and done affair.

Also this perhaps:

"The final explosion now scales off your Spell or Weapon Damage depending on the morph, rather than Magicka or Stamina. The final explosion now also scales with both positive and negative bonuses, rather than only negative ones. Haha Backlash go boom."

And yes, 35% is probably the sweetspot. 20% made the skill do little more than 5k tops if you go all out damage, 50% is clearly too much and I think the above quote is showing that the final explosion can now be positively modified by things that perhaps were not allowed before, like % modifiers etc.

In PvE none of this matters of course. It was easy to max out before.

"The final explosion now also scales with both positive and negative bonuses" - this could be why the OP got hit so hard.

It's also something that probably should not be factored in the final computation. There is a reason why that final explosion isn't subject to mitigation, it's because the copied damage is already mitigated. If we are going to be consistent here and not allow things to double dip, then since the copied damage was already subject to those positive and negative bonuses, then the final explosion should not be.

I think it was correct for ZOS to make it so the final explosion scaled off spell and weapon damage since that's pretty much every ability in the game. I can also get on board with the initial hit acting like an actual ability. These are things that were needed. But copying 50% damage is way too much. As someone who has used this ability for years, that proposed change on top of the other adjustments were very eye-opening. Templars went from having the worst delayed burst skill to something that was very easy to make into the best.

gariondavey

MadeInVN wrote: »

So since everyone keeps telling me to “do this do that”, I’ll say this again:

It’s pointless to tell me those because I already do them.

It’s like telling someone who’s played football for years how to throw a football… You aren’t actually discussing the problem I’m bringing up, which is backlash. You are just telling me to do this or do that.

I would prefer people actually tell me why they think it is objectively a fine ability after the buff. That way we can get a more meaningful discussion.

Lmao. You don't, otherwise your recap would show massive amounts of healing over the 6 seconds.
I don't know what else to say here. The ability is fine. If you hate this I can't imagine how you handle a good magsorc, stamden, or necro. Those classes delayed bursts are way better. Lol.

gariondavey

MadeInVN wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

Also, I know the magplar who attacked you. They are easily one of the best in the game. He bodies pretty much everyone, even before backlash changes.
I noticed you didn't actually refute my points other than saying you know how to play.
The recap paints a picture in which you were out of position and don't heal or respond accordingly.
Additionally, as I mentioned before, your health seems low.

Oh btw, the two mag plars in the screenshots are Shoyrus and Shoddy. I know both of them and have fought them plenty. They are very good plars, but they would agree backlash is broken.

My HP in both screenshots are 38k. If that’s low to you, idk what is lol

You aren't at 100 percent hp in the recap.
You don't have a rolling hot or use a burst heal in 6 seconds.
How you can ignore these and think you played correctly in this situation is absolutely mind-boggling.
Funny, but I don't think you can speak on behalf of shoddy.

Ippokrates

MadeInVN wrote: »

So since everyone keeps telling me to “do this do that”, I’ll say this again:

It’s pointless to tell me those because I already do them.

It’s like telling someone who’s played football for years how to throw a football… You aren’t actually discussing the problem I’m bringing up, which is backlash. You are just telling me to do this or do that.

I would prefer people actually tell me why they think it is objectively a fine ability after the buff. That way we can get a more meaningful discussion.

Because as you said in the previous discussion about stamsorc, pvp is not pve, you do not constantly pushing attacks but also play defensively. Therefore 50% is far more pro pvp than 20%.

universal_wrath

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Purge is available to all classes, so there is counterplay. I don't have an opinion on the rest, as I don't PVP. Maybe you're correct on there should be more counterplay. I know even the efficient purge is pretty spendy. Just wanted to point out that purge is available to all classes.

Purge cost over 5k mqgicka to use and it only removes 3 negative effects. You most likely need to spam purge multiple times to remove backlash. Purge can "purge" dots or other negative effects while backlash is still up abd running, there is a bit of RNG when using purge. Even when it is avialqble to all classes, it is still not a good counter.

Tan9oSuccka

Sanctum74 wrote: »

MadeInVN wrote: »

So since everyone keeps telling me to “do this do that”, I’ll say this again:

It’s pointless to tell me those because I already do them.

It’s like telling someone who’s played football for years how to throw a football… You aren’t actually discussing the problem I’m bringing up, which is backlash. You are just telling me to do this or do that.

I would prefer people actually tell me why they think it is objectively a fine ability after the buff. That way we can get a more meaningful discussion.

It’s fine because you still have counters to prevent or lessen the damage buildup like block, movement, dodge, los, shields, purge, cc, and offensive abilities to provide pressure. In addition to heals and other defensive abilities depending on the class.

You created a nerf thread so it’s your responsibility to provide proof of why it’s op and not just a video of you standing there refusing to use all the counters that you say you use and just telling us you’re a good player.

Unless you can tell us why all these counters stopped working after 7 years then the only thing we can go on is your video which doesn’t back up your claim.

This guy nailed it.

Not sure of the OPs build. But if he’s at 38K health, id have some concerns. I think he got out played more than the skill being balanced or not. That isn’t a ton of damage to heal through.

You can see the telegraphed skill on you.

I have a five star mag templar. The backlash burst is noticeably telegraphed. Nothing makes their job easier if you stand stationary and soak up free damage/not heal.

MadeInVN

gariondavey wrote: »

MadeInVN wrote: »

So since everyone keeps telling me to “do this do that”, I’ll say this again:

It’s pointless to tell me those because I already do them.

It’s like telling someone who’s played football for years how to throw a football… You aren’t actually discussing the problem I’m bringing up, which is backlash. You are just telling me to do this or do that.

I would prefer people actually tell me why they think it is objectively a fine ability after the buff. That way we can get a more meaningful discussion.

Lmao. You don't, otherwise your recap would show massive amounts of healing over the 6 seconds.
I don't know what else to say here. The ability is fine. If you hate this I can't imagine how you handle a good magsorc, stamden, or necro. Those classes delayed bursts are way better. Lol.

Dude seriously lol.. It's like the point completely went over your head. Why would I show a screenshot of healing and damage when I'm trying to bring up a point about how easy it is to stack backlash?. Of course I healed through those tiny damage. But THAT IS NOT THE POINT lol. The point is again, how easy it is to store copied damage .

Your entire argument is based around whether I actually healed through it or not. You didn't even understand my argument. Instead you're just telling me what I might have done wrong without even knowing why I only included a screenshot with damage taken. Seriously dude please read my argument carefully before making comments like these.

I've fought a lot of good magsorcs stamdens and stamcros. They aren't a problem for me, and you can ask @Pelican or many players who duel in stormhaven. I don't need to explain to you about that lmao

MadeInVN

gariondavey wrote: »

MadeInVN wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

Also, I know the magplar who attacked you. They are easily one of the best in the game. He bodies pretty much everyone, even before backlash changes.
I noticed you didn't actually refute my points other than saying you know how to play.
The recap paints a picture in which you were out of position and don't heal or respond accordingly.
Additionally, as I mentioned before, your health seems low.

Oh btw, the two mag plars in the screenshots are Shoyrus and Shoddy. I know both of them and have fought them plenty. They are very good plars, but they would agree backlash is broken.

My HP in both screenshots are 38k. If that’s low to you, idk what is lol

You aren't at 100 percent hp in the recap.
You don't have a rolling hot or use a burst heal in 6 seconds.
How you can ignore these and think you played correctly in this situation is absolutely mind-boggling.
Funny, but I don't think you can speak on behalf of shoddy.

Again, that is not the point, you are derailing the thread. I am not asking for you to tell me what I should have done. I'm asking for you to tell me WHY YOU THINK BACKLASH IS FINE. It's honestly not a hard question at all.

I can speak for shoyrus though and he's a top tier magplar.

gariondavey

MadeInVN wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

MadeInVN wrote: »

So since everyone keeps telling me to “do this do that”, I’ll say this again:

It’s pointless to tell me those because I already do them.

It’s like telling someone who’s played football for years how to throw a football… You aren’t actually discussing the problem I’m bringing up, which is backlash. You are just telling me to do this or do that.

I would prefer people actually tell me why they think it is objectively a fine ability after the buff. That way we can get a more meaningful discussion.

Lmao. You don't, otherwise your recap would show massive amounts of healing over the 6 seconds.
I don't know what else to say here. The ability is fine. If you hate this I can't imagine how you handle a good magsorc, stamden, or necro. Those classes delayed bursts are way better. Lol.

Dude seriously lol.. It's like the point completely went over your head. Why would I show a screenshot of healing and damage when I'm trying to bring up a point about how easy it is to stack backlash?. Of course I healed through those tiny damage. But THAT IS NOT THE POINT lol. The point is again, how easy it is to store copied damage .

Your entire argument is based around whether I actually healed through it or not. You didn't even understand my argument. Instead you're just telling me what I might have done wrong without even knowing why I only included a screenshot with damage taken. Seriously dude please read my argument carefully before making comments like these.

I've fought a lot of good magsorcs stamdens and stamcros. They aren't a problem for me, and you can ask @Pelican or many players who duel in stormhaven. I don't need to explain to you about that lmao

I've read your argument. You stand there and get hit and do nothing.
If you think this is an issue when blastbones and other delayed burst abilities are superior, mathematically, I have no more words for you.
Best wishes.

universal_wrath

itscompton wrote: »

Kill the Templar in less than six seconds when they try to pressure you. Problem solved.

Backpash can still proc 9n you eben after templars dies just like curse. Uf they have dots appl8ed to you, you cab kill them abd they can still also kill you with dots abd backlash proc.

MadeInVN

Sanctum74 wrote: »

MadeInVN wrote: »

So since everyone keeps telling me to “do this do that”, I’ll say this again:

It’s pointless to tell me those because I already do them.

It’s like telling someone who’s played football for years how to throw a football… You aren’t actually discussing the problem I’m bringing up, which is backlash. You are just telling me to do this or do that.

I would prefer people actually tell me why they think it is objectively a fine ability after the buff. That way we can get a more meaningful discussion.

It’s fine because you still have counters to prevent or lessen the damage buildup like block, movement, dodge, los, shields, purge, cc, and offensive abilities to provide pressure. In addition to heals and other defensive abilities depending on the class.

You created a nerf thread so it’s your responsibility to provide proof of why it’s op and not just a video of you standing there refusing to use all the counters that you say you use and just telling us you’re a good player.

Unless you can tell us why all these counters stopped working after 7 years then the only thing we can go on is your video which doesn’t back up your claim.

I have explained it in previous comments. Why don't you go back to the beginning and read them instead of asking me to constantly repeat what I said about the same points I've made counterarguments for? But since you didn't do that, here's what I said:

Let's look at backlash along with templar's entire toolkit. Most of their dmg are melee AoE, meaning you can't roll dodge and have to block or create distance. Seems easy right? Not entirely. You see, they have a skill called toppling charge. You can try to create distance, but they will spam it on you, and toppling charge can hit anywhere from 3k-4k damage alone. Not only that, but consecutive toppling charges also proc burning light for 2.5-3k, which is ALSO unblockable. Not only that, but most templars also use crescents and solar barrage, which are 2 AoE DoTs that you cannot cleanse. Crescent's DoT can hit anywhere between 4k-5k. So you have a templar with 2 AoE DoTs and a gap closer that can proc another unblockable single target dmg as you hopelessly try to create distance.

So why is it a problem? Firstly, magicka templar even before backlash buff was already a very strong pressure class. It's drawback was lacking a good burst, but that's intended. If you put a good burst on a class that also has superior pressure, you're creating an imbalanced class. That's exactly the reason why if Necros and Wardens had the same pressure as magplar, they would be 4 tiers above everything else.

Secondly, the current counterplays for templar do not work very well. If you put a delayed burst ability on a class, you expect it to have counter play. What's the counterplay for backlash? You create distance. You can't block their damage because backlash stores it super fast and gets amped up by 10% from your block. You have to create distance to take less damage. But in a real fight it's not possible. Templars have a very strong gap closer. They can also literally spam light attacks from you at range and still hit a fat backlash proc, like the screen shot I demonstrated. So you can't block because it makes backlash hit for more. You also can't run away because they can spam gapclosers or spam light attacks to store the damage super fast. What are you going to do?

For your other "counters", let me tell you why they don't work:

Purge: 5k cost for non templars/necros/wardens. A templar can easily apply 5 debuffs on you and refresh them at will. You would need to cast alliance purrge twice to remove 5 debuffs, which cost 10k magicka. A templar can reapply all 5 debuffs for 20% of your total purge cost. Do you see the problem here?

Shields: Not applicable to stam

Offensive: You can only go on the offense if you can survive their damage or hit them during their attack window. Chances are you will die before you can do so.

Sure, it's my responsibility to provide proof. But it's also YOUR responsibility to read my responses from previous comments, and give me arguments as to why backlash is fine. It goes both ways. You can't just tell me to do this and do that. Does it make sense?

MadeInVN

gariondavey wrote: »

MadeInVN wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

MadeInVN wrote: »

So since everyone keeps telling me to “do this do that”, I’ll say this again:

It’s pointless to tell me those because I already do them.

It’s like telling someone who’s played football for years how to throw a football… You aren’t actually discussing the problem I’m bringing up, which is backlash. You are just telling me to do this or do that.

I would prefer people actually tell me why they think it is objectively a fine ability after the buff. That way we can get a more meaningful discussion.

Lmao. You don't, otherwise your recap would show massive amounts of healing over the 6 seconds.
I don't know what else to say here. The ability is fine. If you hate this I can't imagine how you handle a good magsorc, stamden, or necro. Those classes delayed bursts are way better. Lol.

Dude seriously lol.. It's like the point completely went over your head. Why would I show a screenshot of healing and damage when I'm trying to bring up a point about how easy it is to stack backlash?. Of course I healed through those tiny damage. But THAT IS NOT THE POINT lol. The point is again, how easy it is to store copied damage .

Your entire argument is based around whether I actually healed through it or not. You didn't even understand my argument. Instead you're just telling me what I might have done wrong without even knowing why I only included a screenshot with damage taken. Seriously dude please read my argument carefully before making comments like these.

I've fought a lot of good magsorcs stamdens and stamcros. They aren't a problem for me, and you can ask @Pelican or many players who duel in stormhaven. I don't need to explain to you about that lmao

I've read your argument. You stand there and get hit and do nothing.
If you think this is an issue when blastbones and other delayed burst abilities are superior, mathematically, I have no more words for you.
Best wishes.

I stood there to demonstrate how easy it is to store copied damage. Why is it so hard to understand? Like why would showing you that I healed through their damage mean anything? It doesn't because at the end of the proc, I would still eat a 9k proc even if I already healed through their damage build up.

You didn't understand my argument at all, instead you keep telling me I didn't heal. It doesn't freaking matter lol... Even if you healed through the 18k damage, you would still eat a 9k proc afterwards. That's the point I'm trying to make. The damage builds up too fast. Is it clear?

M0R_Gaming

MadeInVN wrote: »

Maybe I’ll show you an actual duel video and you will understand why. At this point it’s pointless for me to repeat my answers since every here keeps telling me to “LoS, block, heal, blah blah”.

Please, provide a video. Screenshots are great, but you have biased the screenshots by omitting information, please provide something like an esolog and video, then I'll agree with you if the math matches.

MadeInVN

M0R_Gaming wrote: »

MadeInVN wrote: »

Maybe I’ll show you an actual duel video and you will understand why. At this point it’s pointless for me to repeat my answers since every here keeps telling me to “LoS, block, heal, blah blah”.

Please, provide a video. Screenshots are great, but you have biased the screenshots by omitting information, please provide something like an esolog and video, then I'll agree with you if the math matches.

My original point was how quick back lash can store damage. I did not omit anything because I showed every instance of damage I took up until back lash procced. Now if I was showing a screenshot of how difficult it is to survive a templar, then yes I would need to include my self heals as well. I think that was what people misunderstood.

M0R_Gaming

MadeInVN wrote: »

My original point was how quick back lash can store damage. I did not omit anything because I showed every instance of damage I took up until back lash procced. Now if I was showing a screenshot of how difficult it is to survive a templar, then yes I would need to include my self heals as well. I think that was what people misunderstood.

Ok, but wasn't your original point that backlash is too strong? That is what the title says, so if you don't provide a real world example of this via a video/esolog then you have no argument.

Title of post wrote:

... too much and needs to be toned down

In addition, in a previous post, you mentioned that you should just send a video, then do so.


If your video/log proves that backlash is op, then I'll take your side. If you don't provide a video/log then I'm going to have to disagree with you as you provide no evidence to back up your claim that it is broken in the real world.

MadeInVN

https://youtu.be/5gvWM8PXmGA

@M0R_Gaming Here is an actual duel without cherry picked screenshots, along with the conversation with my friend. I also showed the CMX of the damage and healing taken. Feel free to pause the video at various points where backlash was applied, and how I tried to avoid the damage and still took a lot. I will stop talking here and let the video speak for itself.

If anyone thinks they can do better than me, feel free to duel my friend and apply all your counters in your argument.

M0R_Gaming

MadeInVN wrote: »

https://studio.youtube.com/channel/UCxYrlF0LX1JopalRWgAVXEQ/videos/upload?d=ud&filter=[]&sort={"columnType":"date","sortOrder":"DESCENDING"}

@M0R_Gaming Here is an actual duel without cherry picked screenshots, along with the conversation with my friend. I also showed the CMX of the damage and healing taken. Feel free to pause the video at various points where backlash was applied, and how I tried to avoid the damage and still took a lot.

If anyone thinks they can do better than me, feel free to duel my friend and apply all your counters in your argument.

Wrong link.

I see you updated it

MadeInVN

FYI, my friend purposely played into backlash by not jabbing as much to help me prove my point. He was essentially applying pressure from range and toppling charge with an ultimate.

Qrähe

MadeInVN wrote: »

The scaling for backlash is way too much right now. It would be fine if backlash was dodgable or blockable, but it isnt at all. The only way for you to mitigate it is by cleansing it entirely which many classes don't have access to, or avoid taking enough damage for it to build up. But good players will just stack a bunch of DoTs on you and use radiant oppression and basically still build up the damage easily even if you run away.



This screenshot shows how much damage I took from purifying light after only taking 15.3k damage (most of them from DoTs). Before anyone tells me to stack more mitigation, yes I already have good mitigation with 26k armor and major evasion. You can see that by looking at his jab damage, which only did 1.4k per tick, and his burning light, which only did 2.7. A squishy build would take 2k jab ticks and 3k+ burning light ticks. Normally that kind of damage can usually be healed through, but the scaling of new backlash means you literally have to run away if someone puts backlash on you, because even the slightest amount of damage will build up for a fat proc.

I think a good solution that does not affect PvE is allowing backlash to be blocked or roll dodged.

Idk maybe I'm reading the screanshot wrong, but it looks to me you block 1 attack (this isnt a block more or whatever post) so this is a maximum backlash damage. 10k to round it off.

So 10k on a delayed cast to me is a lot like the damage I'd see from a blastbones if I don't block which is comparable since you didn't block the initial it allows the backlash yo be higher.

Basically compareable, it doesnt seem any worse than other abilities. I feel like the amount of resources needed to defend vs this is less than someone spamming something hitting at 6k for 6 seconds.

MadeInVN

Here is the screenshot of that duel. He did 34 ticks of jabs, or 8.5 times over a 2 minutes 5 seconds duel. That's equivalent to me hitting 8 dizzies over the course of 2 minutes. He was basically playing from range and only jabbing once in a while.

Tell me how you think I should have played this out, if you think I wasn't healing/blocking/rolling?

M0R_Gaming

MadeInVN wrote: »

https://youtu.be/5gvWM8PXmGA

@M0R_Gaming Here is an actual duel without cherry picked screenshots, along with the conversation with my friend. I also showed the CMX of the damage and healing taken. Feel free to pause the video at various points where backlash was applied, and how I tried to avoid the damage and still took a lot. I will stop talking here and let the video speak for itself.

If anyone thinks they can do better than me, feel free to duel my friend and apply all your counters in your argument.

I'm sorry, it's been over 15 minutes, which is much more than the time youtube takes to process a video. Please just upload an esolog. I cant see anything in the video at 360p.

To record a log do /encounterlog
Do the fight
To end the log do /encounterlog
Then either upload the file to a sharing site and link or upload to esologs.com

Nvm its finally up

MadeInVN

Here is a conversation between my friend and 2 other top tier PvPers who also dueled against him and lost. Looks like they don't like new backlash either lmao

MadeInVN

M0R_Gaming wrote: »

MadeInVN wrote: »

https://youtu.be/5gvWM8PXmGA

@M0R_Gaming Here is an actual duel without cherry picked screenshots, along with the conversation with my friend. I also showed the CMX of the damage and healing taken. Feel free to pause the video at various points where backlash was applied, and how I tried to avoid the damage and still took a lot. I will stop talking here and let the video speak for itself.

If anyone thinks they can do better than me, feel free to duel my friend and apply all your counters in your argument.

I'm sorry, it's been over 15 minutes, which is much more than the time youtube takes to process a video. Please just upload an esolog. I cant see anything in the video at 360p.

To record a log do /encounterlog
Do the fight
To end the log do /encounterlog
Then either upload the file to a sharing site and link or upload to esologs.com

You can watch it in HD now. It just finished processing.

Qrähe

I don't get the video, is it a how long can I survive without fighting?

MadeInVN

Oh @gariondavey since you asked for a screenshot with actual healing, here's one for you.

Part 1:


Part 2:


From the moment PL was casted at 14.572 seconds to when it procs at 20.627 seconds, he landed 2 light attacks, 2 crescent sweep ticks, 3 solar barrage ticks, 3 ticks of jab, 2 ticks of overcharged, 1 tick of burning light. That kind of damage was normal and survivable, which I did. But PL critted for 13.6k, meaning a non crit one would be around 10k.

So please tell me, is that kind of unblockable, undodgable damage not problematic?

There is also an actual video of that screenshot above if you think I was cherrypicking stuff. I want to hear what you have to say.

MadeInVN

Qrähe wrote: »

I don't get the video, is it a how long can I survive without fighting?

The video shows how everyone's "advice" to tell me to block/roll dodge/heal/apply pressure/ doesn't freaking matter. It's pointless advice because I already know how to do it. The video shows my point about how broken PL is after the buff. The video shows how all the "counters" people told me above are actually meaningless because a good opponent also knows about those counters. The video shows that people on the forums in general have no clue what they are talking about