Backlash buff was too much and needs to be toned down (PvP perspective)

Greek_Hellspawn

I play bgs on ps4 EU, we are still in blackwood patch and purifying light is VERY bad right now, the worst delayed burst.

I haven't tested the new purifying light but i think op is right because it got buffed twice.
1. The delayed burst now also scales with spell dmg so you get a higher tooltip.
2. It now copies 50% of your dmg instead of 20%.
I think the best solution would be to make it copy 40% of your dmg, so it is still strong but not too strong.

P.S I also play magplar so i am not biased towards them.

danno8

What is the cap on the skill in Cyrodiil and how high does the cap scale with high SD?

xPoisin

Wow, I tet through all comments in this thread and found two points that are overlooked :
1. all classes have some purge available ( some have class skills, other have Purge and its morphs)
2. learn to counterplay if attacked by templar

I play all classes PVP and PVE for a long time, but personally I am not founding myself as a good player (maybe less than average). I have never had an issue when fighting templar in 1v1, just counterplay - knock him back, stun, fear - just do something and then cleanse the backlight… All stam builds that use Forward Momentum do not care… For magicka classes Wardens are safe, templar themselfs are safe, sorcs are safe (should be if played right),necros should be safe (I play one and it can be hard sometimes), DKs “should” be safe depending on build…
As the skilled PRO players says : JUST PLAY 😁 AND LEARN TO PLAY 😁

PS: if someone think that templars are the top tier class to play in PVP so just play the templar 😁😁😁

relentless_turnip

danno8 wrote: »

What is the cap on the skill in Cyrodiil and how high does the cap scale with high SD?

I suppose that could be a problem as the cap isn't halved in cyro, meaning if you can now stack the damage more efficiently. You will achieve a much higher tooltip over a shorter period.

BalticBlues

Lady_Galadhiel wrote: »

I am not very experienced in PvP but the only class what causes me trouble no matter if in Cyrodiil or Bgs are Templars Also playing a magSorc and I always had that problem.

IMHO with a MagSorc you hardly can loose against a MagPlar, because even if everything goes wrong, you can just streak away (and in worst case take an Invis pot). MagPlars are slow and depending on heals. So prevent their heals from happening by applying stuns, the more the merrier. MagClasses all run out of Stamina quickly, so if you stun them, they quickly are depleted and end up as dead meat. The more Stuns you produce, the faster they die.

Of course, against StamClasses this will not work so well, because they can break free forever and mostly are so fast, you can hardly hit them with a MagClass. You can try to apply dots, but StamClasses have so high direct damage and damage procs now, they smoke you up in seconds if you let them come near. This is why StamClasses currently are outperforming MagClasses. Try a StamWarden or StamCro in PvP and you suddenly play god mode compared to a MagClass. My StamWarden can probably kill 3 people in the average time my MagPlar can kill one...

IMHO MagPlars really needed something to make them a bit more of a risk.
Therefore, I am thankful that Backlash now brings something to think about.
If 50% copy damage turns out to be too much, ZOS may tone it down to 40%.
However, before that I'd like to see Cloaking&VD nerfed, because Bombers are more OP than ever.

ZOS_Icy

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xPoisin

Oh, and what is good for templars right now is the combo with hrothgars chill… backlash+toppling+hrothgars chill+ some jabs = huge damage burst but still YOU can counterplay to that because you have 6 seconds to react to that…
Of course it will be hard but that´s the life in PVP 🤟🤟🤟

danno8

relentless_turnip wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

What is the cap on the skill in Cyrodiil and how high does the cap scale with high SD?

I suppose that could be a problem as the cap isn't halved in cyro, meaning if you can now stack the damage more efficiently. You will achieve a much higher tooltip over a shorter period.

This: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/583553/backlash-copied-damage-affected-by-battlespirit#latest

was the last I saw on the PTS so I thought the skill was going to be OK, easy to reach cap but the cap was hit by Battle Spirit (which creates a "double hit" situation that they usually try to avoid), but if the cap isn't halved and can get to 14 or 15k then I can see how this would be a problem.

Tan9oSuccka

MadeInVN wrote: »

temerley wrote: »

Dude, like, you actually have to get hit by templars to proc a high PL, unlike blastbones where they just need to target you.

I'm not really into temps for pvp but IMO this is a good change for them just kite them or something

Yea and please explain to me how hitting someone for 7 light attacks and hitting a 9k back lash is fair?

Backlash has a short window. Was this a duel? If so….doing it wrong. No way should you allow a templar to land 7 light attacks (in 6 seconds) with backlash on you.

If this was open world, then I have more questions.

Sanguinor2

danno8 wrote: »

This: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/583553/backlash-copied-damage-affected-by-battlespirit#latest

was the last I saw on the PTS so I thought the skill was going to be OK, easy to reach cap but the cap was hit by Battle Spirit (which creates a "double hit" situation that they usually try to avoid), but if the cap isn't halved and can get to 14 or 15k then I can see how this would be a problem.

I feel like at this point it would be much easier to rework backlash into something similar to other delayed burst skills. Due to the 6 second duration it has to hit higher than blastbones/shalks/curse to have equal potential power, if it gets double dipped by battlespirit it will be weak compared to blasbones/shalks/curse but if it has equal potential power then it will deal very high burst damage in pvp since it has to attempt to match two blastbones/shalks/curse hits.

DTStormfox

MadeInVN wrote: »

DTStormfox wrote: »

I don't know. ~9k damage from an ability that has to charge for 6 seconds seems fine to me. And it also is very obvious when it will proc the burst, so you can (probably) easily out-heal it at the right moment.

That's not the problem. The problem is it's unblockable and undodgable. There is no counterplay to it.

In your original post, your complaint seems to be focused on the damage.

The counterplay:

• All Magicka builds can shield themselves to absorb (most of) the damage.
• All builds can stun the caster of Backlash to prevent taking damage, and thus prevent the accumulation of damage by Backlash. If the caster can't damage you, Backlash will not do a lot of damage.
• DoTs that accumulate Backlash damage can be purged using Purge (Alliance War ability), set items (such as curse-eater), using the Purify synergy (from Cleansing Ritual, Templar ability) and more class-specific: Warden's can use the Betty Netch, Nightblades can cloak to negate the damage accumulation, Necromancers can use Expunge, Sorcerers can stack shields, Dragonknights can use Obsidian Shield or Hardened Armor (Spiked Armor morph) to shield.

Consider also that you can clearly see when the accumulated damage will hit you.
And as you can see, there are plenty of methods to reduce the damage accumulation of Backlash or reduce the damage taken from Backlash as it procs after 6 seconds of accumulating damage.

Joy_Division

MadeInVN wrote: »

The scaling for backlash is way too much right now. It would be fine if backlash was dodgable or blockable, but it isnt at all. The only way for you to mitigate it is by cleansing it entirely which many classes don't have access to, or avoid taking enough damage for it to build up. But good players will just stack a bunch of DoTs on you and use radiant oppression and basically still build up the damage easily even if you run away.



This screenshot shows how much damage I took from purifying light after only taking 15.3k damage (most of them from DoTs). Before anyone tells me to stack more mitigation, yes I already have good mitigation with 26k armor and major evasion. You can see that by looking at his jab damage, which only did 1.4k per tick, and his burning light, which only did 2.7. A squishy build would take 2k jab ticks and 3k+ burning light ticks. Normally that kind of damage can usually be healed through, but the scaling of new backlash means you literally have to run away if someone puts backlash on you, because even the slightest amount of damage will build up for a fat proc.

I think a good solution that does not affect PvE is allowing backlash to be blocked or roll dodged.

Dodging it isn't the solution. Stored damage isn't supposed to be dodgeble and besides there are going to be times when you can;t dodge (which is why we keep running into proc set issues, ZOS thinks as long as some sort of counterplay exists, then it;s ok to make OP sets).

Anyone who has used this skill for any length of time will know what's in your screenshot shouldn;t happen. Either something is bugged or ZOS overcompensated trying to make something weak into something decent, which they are prone to do.

I havent read the patch notes closely, but I thought I read this is only supposed to store 50% of the damage done. 50% of 15.3 is not 9.7K.

Lady_Galadhiel

BalticBlues wrote: »

Lady_Galadhiel wrote: »

I am not very experienced in PvP but the only class what causes me trouble no matter if in Cyrodiil or Bgs are Templars Also playing a magSorc and I always had that problem.

IMHO with a MagSorc you hardly can loose against a MagPlar, because even if everything goes wrong, you can just streak away (and in worst case take an Invis pot). MagPlars are slow and depending on heals. So prevent their heals from happening by applying stuns, the more the merrier. MagClasses all run out of Stamina quickly, so if you stun them, they quickly are depleted and end up as dead meat. The more Stuns you produce, the faster they die.

Of course, against StamClasses this will not work so well, because they can break free forever and mostly are so fast, you can hardly hit them with a MagClass. You can try to apply dots, but StamClasses have so high direct damage and damage procs now, they smoke you up in seconds if you let them come near. This is why StamClasses currently are outperforming MagClasses. Try a StamWarden or StamCro in PvP and you suddenly play god mode compared to a MagClass. My StamWarden can probably kill 3 people in the average time my MagPlar can kill one...

IMHO MagPlars really needed something to make them a bit more of a risk.
Therefore, I am thankful that Backlash now brings something to think about.
If 50% copy damage turns out to be too much, ZOS may tone it down to 40%.
However, before that I'd like to see Cloaking&VD nerfed, because Bombers are more OP than ever.

I have a StamCro but didnt use her for PVP for a long time now,she has outdated sets and I actually planned making her a pvp ww build but I am not sure if that would work out well.

Sanctum74

MadeInVN wrote: »

techyeshic wrote: »

MadeInVN wrote: »

Indigogo wrote: »

MadeInVN wrote: »

Indigogo wrote: »

This is just a complaint thread about anything that hits for 8k+, isn't it?

No, actually think about it before commenting please

You've yet to supply any valid reason as to why this is over performing or not comparable to other delayed burst abilities like Curse, BB, shalks....

They all hit for similar numbers or much, much higher.
Now, if it hit for 18k, I could see a reason for concern but 9k? Come on.

Good change for templars it looks like.

Okay so let me give you some reasons why it's not comparable and a concern.

Blastbones: can be blocked and mitigated by evasion
Shalks: can be moved out, blocked, and mitigated by evasion
Bow proc: can be roll dodged and blocked
Bound Armaments: can be roll dodged and blocked
Curse: Can only be cleansed
Backlash: Can only be cleansed or denied dmg stacking

Okay let's look at curse, the only ability that requires cleansing to mitigate damage. Magsorc's entire toolkit consists of ranged single target damage. Single target = can be roll dodged or blocked. So when you do those defensive maneuvers, you can heal through curse.

Let's look at backlash along with templar's entire toolkit. Most of their dmg are melee AoE, meaning you can't roll dodge and have to block or create distance. Seems easy right? Not entirely. You see, they have a skill called toppling charge. You can try to create distance, but they will spam it on you, and toppling charge can hit anywhere from 3k-4k damage alone. Not only that, but consecutive toppling charges also proc burning light for 2.5-3k, which is ALSO unblockable. Not only that, but most templars also use crescents and solar barrage, which are 2 AoE DoTs that you cannot cleanse. Crescent's DoT can hit anywhere between 4k-5k. So you have a templar with 2 AoE DoTs and a gap closer that can proc another unblockable single target dmg as you hopelessly try to create distance.

But here's why backlash is better than curse. First of all, templars deal 10% more damage to a blocking target, so if you block you eat 10% more damage from an already unblockable backlash. Second of all, the 50% damage scaling means if you deal 18k damage within 6 seconds, backlash will return half of that, or 9k damage. This isn't mitigated by battle spirit, btw. Why do I know that? Because look a this screenshot below:



From the moment my opponent casted back lash on me to the point where it "procced", I took 18k damage from JUST light attacks + degeneration ticks. Backlash returned 8.6k non crit damage.

So why is it a problem? Firstly, magicka templar even before backlash buff was already a very strong pressure class. It's drawback was lacking a good burst, but that's intended. If you put a good burst on a class that also has superior pressure, you're creating an imbalanced class. That's exactly the reason why if Necros and Wardens had the same pressure as magplar, they would be 4 tiers above everything else.

Secondly, the current counterplays for templar do not work very well. If you put a delayed burst ability on a class, you expect it to have counter play. What's the counterplay for haunting curse? You roll dodge so as to avoid the rest of their single target combo, giving you a chance to heal up. What's the counterplay for backlash? You create distance. You can't block their damage because backlash stores it super fast and gets amped up by 10% from your block. You have to create distance to take less damage. But in a real fight it's not possible. Templars have a very strong gap closer. They can also literally spam light attacks from you at range and still hit a fat backlash proc, like the screen shot I demonstrated. So you can't block because it makes backlash hit for more. You also can't run away because they can spam gapclosers or spam light attacks to store the damage super fast. What are you going to do?

You can't do anything, because there's no counterplay lol.. And before you tell me I need to adapt. No, I don't. I've dueled and fought against more templars than you know, some of which are top tier magplars for PC NA. I've lost a lot, and also won a lot, and here is what I and literally everyone can tell you about templar's counterplay - to create distance. But you can't even do that anymore, so what do you suggest I do if you think this ability is fine? Have you actually fought a templar with this new backlash? Please enlighten me.

You ate 21k damage in 6 seconds for it to get that high. You don't eat that much damage; POTL doesn't hit hard.

The first Purifying Light tick doesn't count since it's the initial direct damage for applying the tick. After that everything counts up until it procs. I ate around 18.5k damage from just light attacks. The keyword here is light attacks. It would be fine if I ate a full damage combo with ultimate and other abilities, but he got purifying light to proc for almost 9k from just doing light attacks.

That literally means in a real fight someone could be sitting from 20 meters away, only spamming light attacks at you, and still hit you for 9k damage. You are already at range so you aren't taking any melee damage from him, but it still stores the damage way too fast. That's what I'm trying to bring up here.

Got it, so the problem is light attacks, maybe try blocking or just moving out of the way since fire staff light attacks are slow and easy to avoid. POL is working as intended and if you just sit there and do nothing to defend yourself then you should go boom 💥

danno8

Joy_Division wrote: »

MadeInVN wrote: »

The scaling for backlash is way too much right now. It would be fine if backlash was dodgable or blockable, but it isnt at all. The only way for you to mitigate it is by cleansing it entirely which many classes don't have access to, or avoid taking enough damage for it to build up. But good players will just stack a bunch of DoTs on you and use radiant oppression and basically still build up the damage easily even if you run away.



This screenshot shows how much damage I took from purifying light after only taking 15.3k damage (most of them from DoTs). Before anyone tells me to stack more mitigation, yes I already have good mitigation with 26k armor and major evasion. You can see that by looking at his jab damage, which only did 1.4k per tick, and his burning light, which only did 2.7. A squishy build would take 2k jab ticks and 3k+ burning light ticks. Normally that kind of damage can usually be healed through, but the scaling of new backlash means you literally have to run away if someone puts backlash on you, because even the slightest amount of damage will build up for a fat proc.

I think a good solution that does not affect PvE is allowing backlash to be blocked or roll dodged.

Dodging it isn't the solution. Stored damage isn't supposed to be dodgeble and besides there are going to be times when you can;t dodge (which is why we keep running into proc set issues, ZOS thinks as long as some sort of counterplay exists, then it;s ok to make OP sets).

Anyone who has used this skill for any length of time will know what's in your screenshot shouldn;t happen. Either something is bugged or ZOS overcompensated trying to make something weak into something decent, which they are prone to do.

I havent read the patch notes closely, but I thought I read this is only supposed to store 50% of the damage done. 50% of 15.3 is not 9.7K.

The total damage is 18698 (if you include the initial hit from Backlash) half of that would be 9349, so it's pretty close.

My question would be: Is his mitigation not applying to the explosion? If he has 26k mitigation that should be a reduction of 40% which would bring the explosion down to 5-6k which would be more where I would expect it to be.

MadeInVN

Sigh.. Maybe I need to actually post an actual duel video between me and my templar friend for everyone to see why their advice of “blocking” or “moving away” doesn’t work.

TequilaFire

You mean my Templars are OP again?
I always call my Templars yo-yos, one patch they are up next patch they are down.

gariondavey

I'm sorry but backlash doesn't need to be toned down.
The skill has been completely useless for years.
You need to put damage in to get a big hit.
I saw your recap.
Your argument about just light attacks is fallacious.
If you don't cast heals, block, LoS and dodge roll for 6 seconds you can and likely will die.
Your health and resists seem low.
As discussed, there are tools to help you. Purge, mistform, defensive ults.
Backlash CAN hit around the same as curse, shalks or blastbones but you need to put in way more work to get those results.

ealdwin

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

This: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/583553/backlash-copied-damage-affected-by-battlespirit#latest

was the last I saw on the PTS so I thought the skill was going to be OK, easy to reach cap but the cap was hit by Battle Spirit (which creates a "double hit" situation that they usually try to avoid), but if the cap isn't halved and can get to 14 or 15k then I can see how this would be a problem.

I feel like at this point it would be much easier to rework backlash into something similar to other delayed burst skills. Due to the 6 second duration it has to hit higher than blastbones/shalks/curse to have equal potential power, if it gets double dipped by battlespirit it will be weak compared to blasbones/shalks/curse but if it has equal potential power then it will deal very high burst damage in pvp since it has to attempt to match two blastbones/shalks/curse hits.

As much as I'd hate to see the uniqueness of Backlash gone—because it actually is a rather neat idea of a skill that isn't just a copy of how others operate—I do kind of agree. The damage stored-copied mechanic means its either very much worth running or it's not worth the space at all. The minute it is worth running and makes Templar's competitive you get overreaction threads like this one popping up. As soon as it falls into uselessness the stream of requests for changes and buffs fill the class feedback thread. They could still do some unique things with it besides just a yellow version of curse. For instance, a small 6-second DoT that ends in a final explosion to keep with the original idea that continuous pressure reaps reward at the end.

MadeInVN

DTStormfox wrote: »

MadeInVN wrote: »

DTStormfox wrote: »

I don't know. ~9k damage from an ability that has to charge for 6 seconds seems fine to me. And it also is very obvious when it will proc the burst, so you can (probably) easily out-heal it at the right moment.

That's not the problem. The problem is it's unblockable and undodgable. There is no counterplay to it.

In your original post, your complaint seems to be focused on the damage.

The counterplay:

• All Magicka builds can shield themselves to absorb (most of) the damage.
• All builds can stun the caster of Backlash to prevent taking damage, and thus prevent the accumulation of damage by Backlash. If the caster can't damage you, Backlash will not do a lot of damage.
• DoTs that accumulate Backlash damage can be purged using Purge (Alliance War ability), set items (such as curse-eater), using the Purify synergy (from Cleansing Ritual, Templar ability) and more class-specific: Warden's can use the Betty Netch, Nightblades can cloak to negate the damage accumulation, Necromancers can use Expunge, Sorcerers can stack shields, Dragonknights can use Obsidian Shield or Hardened Armor (Spiked Armor morph) to shield.

Consider also that you can clearly see when the accumulated damage will hit you.
And as you can see, there are plenty of methods to reduce the damage accumulation of Backlash or reduce the damage taken from Backlash as it procs after 6 seconds of accumulating damage.

gariondavey wrote: »

I'm sorry but backlash doesn't need to be toned down.
The skill has been completely useless for years.
You need to put damage in to get a big hit.
I saw your recap.
Your argument about just light attacks is fallacious.
If you don't cast heals, block, LoS and dodge roll for 6 seconds you can and likely will die.
Your health and resists seem low.
As discussed, there are tools to help you. Purge, mistform, defensive ults.
Backlash CAN hit around the same as curse, shalks or blastbones but you need to put in way more work to get those results.

Maybe I’ll show you an actual duel video and you will understand why. At this point it’s pointless for me to repeat my answers since every here keeps telling me to “LoS, block, heal, blah blah”.

I get it, I appreciate your advice, but it doesn’t work. I’m not a new player. Your advice don’t help because I’ve done them already. A video will demonstrate better right now than anything I say

techyeshic

Kryptonite_Kent wrote: »

techyeshic wrote: »

MadeInVN wrote: »

techyeshic wrote: »

MadeInVN wrote: »

Indigogo wrote: »

MadeInVN wrote: »

Indigogo wrote: »

This is just a complaint thread about anything that hits for 8k+, isn't it?

No, actually think about it before commenting please

You've yet to supply any valid reason as to why this is over performing or not comparable to other delayed burst abilities like Curse, BB, shalks....

They all hit for similar numbers or much, much higher.
Now, if it hit for 18k, I could see a reason for concern but 9k? Come on.

Good change for templars it looks like.

Okay so let me give you some reasons why it's not comparable and a concern.

Blastbones: can be blocked and mitigated by evasion
Shalks: can be moved out, blocked, and mitigated by evasion
Bow proc: can be roll dodged and blocked
Bound Armaments: can be roll dodged and blocked
Curse: Can only be cleansed
Backlash: Can only be cleansed or denied dmg stacking

Okay let's look at curse, the only ability that requires cleansing to mitigate damage. Magsorc's entire toolkit consists of ranged single target damage. Single target = can be roll dodged or blocked. So when you do those defensive maneuvers, you can heal through curse.

Let's look at backlash along with templar's entire toolkit. Most of their dmg are melee AoE, meaning you can't roll dodge and have to block or create distance. Seems easy right? Not entirely. You see, they have a skill called toppling charge. You can try to create distance, but they will spam it on you, and toppling charge can hit anywhere from 3k-4k damage alone. Not only that, but consecutive toppling charges also proc burning light for 2.5-3k, which is ALSO unblockable. Not only that, but most templars also use crescents and solar barrage, which are 2 AoE DoTs that you cannot cleanse. Crescent's DoT can hit anywhere between 4k-5k. So you have a templar with 2 AoE DoTs and a gap closer that can proc another unblockable single target dmg as you hopelessly try to create distance.

But here's why backlash is better than curse. First of all, templars deal 10% more damage to a blocking target, so if you block you eat 10% more damage from an already unblockable backlash. Second of all, the 50% damage scaling means if you deal 18k damage within 6 seconds, backlash will return half of that, or 9k damage. This isn't mitigated by battle spirit, btw. Why do I know that? Because look a this screenshot below:



From the moment my opponent casted back lash on me to the point where it "procced", I took 18k damage from JUST light attacks + degeneration ticks. Backlash returned 8.6k non crit damage.

So why is it a problem? Firstly, magicka templar even before backlash buff was already a very strong pressure class. It's drawback was lacking a good burst, but that's intended. If you put a good burst on a class that also has superior pressure, you're creating an imbalanced class. That's exactly the reason why if Necros and Wardens had the same pressure as magplar, they would be 4 tiers above everything else.

Secondly, the current counterplays for templar do not work very well. If you put a delayed burst ability on a class, you expect it to have counter play. What's the counterplay for haunting curse? You roll dodge so as to avoid the rest of their single target combo, giving you a chance to heal up. What's the counterplay for backlash? You create distance. You can't block their damage because backlash stores it super fast and gets amped up by 10% from your block. You have to create distance to take less damage. But in a real fight it's not possible. Templars have a very strong gap closer. They can also literally spam light attacks from you at range and still hit a fat backlash proc, like the screen shot I demonstrated. So you can't block because it makes backlash hit for more. You also can't run away because they can spam gapclosers or spam light attacks to store the damage super fast. What are you going to do?

You can't do anything, because there's no counterplay lol.. And before you tell me I need to adapt. No, I don't. I've dueled and fought against more templars than you know, some of which are top tier magplars for PC NA. I've lost a lot, and also won a lot, and here is what I and literally everyone can tell you about templar's counterplay - to create distance. But you can't even do that anymore, so what do you suggest I do if you think this ability is fine? Have you actually fought a templar with this new backlash? Please enlighten me.

You ate 21k damage in 6 seconds for it to get that high. You don't eat that much damage; POTL doesn't hit hard.

The first Purifying Light tick doesn't count since it's the initial direct damage for applying the tick. After that everything counts up until it procs. I ate around 18.5k damage from just light attacks. The keyword here is light attacks. It would be fine if I ate a full damage combo with ultimate and other abilities, but he got purifying light to proc for almost 9k from just doing light attacks.

That literally means in a real fight someone could be sitting from 20 meters away, only spamming light attacks at you, and still hit you for 9k damage. You are already at range so you aren't taking any melee damage from him, but it still stores the damage way too fast. That's what I'm trying to bring up here.

It has a max that it can store that is similar to blast ones, or 1 of 2 sub assaults, or most any burst skill. You say you can avoid those to counter; I am saying you can for POTL/PL as well. It's just in the build up rather than the burst.

Edit; I could agree with maybe DOTs not counting toward it by requiring direct damage, MAYBE. But that won't help you on light attacks

That would completely ruin the ability, a lot of templars skill set is dots, including jabs... all of which are CLEANSABLE including the backlash lol....

Jabs are not a DOT. Have not been for maybe 2 years

MadeInVN

xPoisin wrote: »

Wow, I tet through all comments in this thread and found two points that are overlooked :
1. all classes have some purge available ( some have class skills, other have Purge and its morphs)
2. learn to counterplay if attacked by templar

I play all classes PVP and PVE for a long time, but personally I am not founding myself as a good player (maybe less than average). I have never had an issue when fighting templar in 1v1, just counterplay - knock him back, stun, fear - just do something and then cleanse the backlight… All stam builds that use Forward Momentum do not care… For magicka classes Wardens are safe, templar themselfs are safe, sorcs are safe (should be if played right),necros should be safe (I play one and it can be hard sometimes), DKs “should” be safe depending on build…
As the skilled PRO players says : JUST PLAY 😁 AND LEARN TO PLAY 😁

PS: if someone think that templars are the top tier class to play in PVP so just play the templar 😁😁😁

Your points 1) and 2) have already by done in practice. I hate to brag but because for some reason people keep telling me to learn to play or do this do that instead of actually discussing you know, the point, so I'll have to state my own experience here.

I'm a veteran PvPer on PC NA. I've also won a dueling tournament. I've also fought a lot of top tier magplars. In fact, I have over 5000 duels against magplars of all skill level. What you don't understand is when 2 equally good players fight, the one with a class advantage wins. How do I know this? Because you can very easily reverse the roles for them to test this theory out.

So let's say I, a stamsorc main, duel my friend, a templar main. We are both skilled in dueling and are fairly equal in terms of mechanics. He beats me a lot, so people naturally thinks he's better. But what if we reverse the roles? What if he hops on my class, and I hop on his class. We both don't play each other's classes, so the playing field is equal. But I can guarantee you right now that if we were to reverse the roles, I would beat my friend 10 times out of 10 times. This is due to templar being a much better dueling class than stamsorc. This has been tested in the dueling community btw.

Again, I don't mean to brag, but people aren't exactly being constructive when they give me advice I already knew.

Neoauspex

Just use the same counter that everybody uses for everything and spam dizzy swings at it, it will go away.

gariondavey

Also, I know the magplar who attacked you. They are easily one of the best in the game. He bodies pretty much everyone, even before backlash changes.
I noticed you didn't actually refute my points other than saying you know how to play.
The recap paints a picture in which you were out of position and don't heal or respond accordingly.
Additionally, as I mentioned before, your health seems low.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

I don't pretend to be an expert on the intricacies of PVP balance, but when I read through the patch notes, this was probably the biggest thing that stood out. I do agree templars needed some love, but this seems to have the potential to be rage inducing. LOL

gariondavey

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

I don't pretend to be an expert on the intricacies of PVP balance, but when I read through the patch notes, this was probably the biggest thing that stood out. I do agree templars needed some love, but this seems to have the potential to be rage inducing. LOL

So a delayed burst skill that requires tons of damage into it before it hits hard could induce rage...
Out of curiosity how do you think people feel against curse, shalks, and blastbones? Lmao.
I don't know how anyone could possibly see this situation and draw these conclusions.

Joy_Division

danno8 wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

MadeInVN wrote: »

The scaling for backlash is way too much right now. It would be fine if backlash was dodgable or blockable, but it isnt at all. The only way for you to mitigate it is by cleansing it entirely which many classes don't have access to, or avoid taking enough damage for it to build up. But good players will just stack a bunch of DoTs on you and use radiant oppression and basically still build up the damage easily even if you run away.



This screenshot shows how much damage I took from purifying light after only taking 15.3k damage (most of them from DoTs). Before anyone tells me to stack more mitigation, yes I already have good mitigation with 26k armor and major evasion. You can see that by looking at his jab damage, which only did 1.4k per tick, and his burning light, which only did 2.7. A squishy build would take 2k jab ticks and 3k+ burning light ticks. Normally that kind of damage can usually be healed through, but the scaling of new backlash means you literally have to run away if someone puts backlash on you, because even the slightest amount of damage will build up for a fat proc.

I think a good solution that does not affect PvE is allowing backlash to be blocked or roll dodged.

Dodging it isn't the solution. Stored damage isn't supposed to be dodgeble and besides there are going to be times when you can;t dodge (which is why we keep running into proc set issues, ZOS thinks as long as some sort of counterplay exists, then it;s ok to make OP sets).

Anyone who has used this skill for any length of time will know what's in your screenshot shouldn;t happen. Either something is bugged or ZOS overcompensated trying to make something weak into something decent, which they are prone to do.

I havent read the patch notes closely, but I thought I read this is only supposed to store 50% of the damage done. 50% of 15.3 is not 9.7K.

The total damage is 18698 (if you include the initial hit from Backlash) half of that would be 9349, so it's pretty close.

My question would be: Is his mitigation not applying to the explosion? If he has 26k mitigation that should be a reduction of 40% which would bring the explosion down to 5-6k which would be more where I would expect it to be.

It shouldn't. Way way way back when ZOS first redesigned this skill, their logic has always been the mitigation happens during the damage build up phase, that is when the OP is getting jabbed, dotted up, etc. If the burst damage got mitigated again, then that would mean the "double dip" phenomenon that ZOS does not like; they want the game's mechanics to apply once and only once. I remember them saying the intended counterplay was that a player could dodge and block within that six seconds.

The issue here is that ZOS's intention is fine - things should not be mitigated twice - but it's too easy for a templar player to get a 9K+ explosion. There's no way any skill in any game should basically reproduce 1/2 the total damage a player takes in six seconds. Especially since the initial hit of backlash (also really high; that got changed too), is not something I thought was even counted.

And I was right. According to patch note for 2.7.5 "This damage does not contribute to the copied damage delivered at the end of the ability's duration."

From the same patch note regarding ZOS's philosophy:

2.7.5 patch notes wrote:

Making the damage unblockable ensures it behaves consistently when compared to Daedric Curse. Both those abilities are similar in functionality and how they thematically apply their damage. This also ensures that Backlash is not double penalized by block, since some of the damage it copies will likely be blocked or avoided by enemies seeking to minimize Backlash's final attack. Hitting the maximum damage limit against another player now requires a significant amount of uninhibited damage from the Templar, and enemies will have more counterplay in reducing Backlash's burst damage if they actively mitigate or avoid damage.

There's the no double mitigation. The concern here is this part: "Hitting the maximum damage limit against another player now requires a significant amount of uninhibited damage from the Templar," that is no longer true according to the damage recap provided by the OP. It was not a significant amount of damage.

***

The problem with this ability is that it was originally designed as a healer/group/support skill. A healer would put this on a boss, allow the group's DPS to fill the damage pool, and then it would go *boom* while also providing a heal over time. It was a good idea. But good PvE ideas usually mean players who are good enough to act like PvE bosses and are able to fight 4+ players got hit noticeably harder with this skill than other delayed burst damage skills, so ZOS overreacted and made it so only the templar's damage would get copied. This meant the damage would usually be too low because it was never meant to do that. Any templar that has used this skill for years instantly knew this would make the skill weak against decent players, but they didn't listen and not surprisingly that's precisely what happened.

So ZOS overcompensated by going from 20% copied damage (what I think it was, or at least what it was for the many years I used this skill; but don't quote me if this was the case for say 2020) to 50%. That was way too much. It just fits a larger pattern of ZOS over-nerfing and then over-buffing things instead of experimenting to find a sweetspot. I knew reading those patch notes 50% would make the ability too good and I'm surprised they didn't even try 35%. This is a huge problem with the whole PTS philosophy of "we're only going to make changes once during the entire process (i.e., the third week)." It makes it really hard to fine tune things because it's a once and done affair.

Jameson18

If i'm being honest, I don't mind this buff.

It adds some flavor to my templars possibly and some danger from the ones I come across in opposition.

Otherwise I would fear the trend of the more common flavor right now of just standing in their rune and ritual with s3 vamp and pariah and troll tanking with earthgore or chokethorn in between their line of sight runs will just continue. Its almost as bad as the necro thing. (But yeah, they determined that in the continued era of troll tank / tank meta, ttk was too low..) - And lets not forget the Living Dark update. Adding TWO max hp based heals to one class after nerfing the max hp based heals of 2 others was totally productive....

With all the changes that are hitting with this update, I wouldn't mind if things were just left alone for a few weeks so we can see how things shake out.

MadeInVN

gariondavey wrote: »

Also, I know the magplar who attacked you. They are easily one of the best in the game. He bodies pretty much everyone, even before backlash changes.
I noticed you didn't actually refute my points other than saying you know how to play.
The recap paints a picture in which you were out of position and don't heal or respond accordingly.
Additionally, as I mentioned before, your health seems low.

I already answered points in previous comments. You can look at them. I don’t feel like having to repeat the same refutes for literally the same points. You aren’t the only one to ask me whether I used LoS or not.

I am telling you that i know how to play because i know how to play. All your points are meaningless because if they actually worked I wouldnt be here answering the same points from different people on this thread.

I am telling you that I know how to play because instead of actually discussing the ability, you are telling me what I should do, which I already know how to. It’s pointless discussion and gets nowhere, because again, I know how to do those things.

So let’s do this again. Why do you think it is a fine ability?

MadeInVN

So since everyone keeps telling me to “do this do that”, I’ll say this again:

It’s pointless to tell me those because I already do them.

It’s like telling someone who’s played football for years how to throw a football… You aren’t actually discussing the problem I’m bringing up, which is backlash. You are just telling me to do this or do that.

I would prefer people actually tell me why they think it is objectively a fine ability after the buff. That way we can get a more meaningful discussion.