Backlash buff was too much and needs to be toned down (PvP perspective)

fred4

itscompton wrote: »

Kill the Templar in less than six seconds when they try to pressure you. Problem solved.

I think this is possibly an underrated comment, because it sounds flippant. For what it's worth I tend to believe the OP. However, while I've had no chance to play / test myself yet, Backlash doesn't seem to be the only insane thing about this patch. I will be trying two instant (or near instant) proc sets on my magblade, Caluurion + Hrothgar or Caluurion + Thunder Caller. I also think the medium armor changes are buffing the crap out of Acuity builds, for example stamblades. I haven't thought about other classes yet, but I think nightblades will have a realistic chance of killing magplars, before they can do anything. Whether that is something you want is a different story. I am also talking open world, not a duel where the templar could stand and block until the nightblade shows itself. If the magplar is smart, they will IMO run Restoring Focus for the stam sustain instead of wearing something like Amber Plasm, at least if they are not using Mist Form. A great tool to allow waiting with block up (or sprinting) without cutting off your stam regen. (My) magplar actually feels faster than some of my stam builds, because Restoring Focus + Race Against Time + sprint at "no cost" makes for such a good combination. Incidentally, wouldn't Mist Form at the right moment be a way to mitigate Backlash that we have not mentioned yet?

Like templars, nightblades now appear to require specific counterplay against Cloak, e.g. just having Solar Barrage on would no longer appear to work, although spamming Sweeps will. Having Curse or Backlash on you is something that's been really annoying on a nightblade trying to stay hidden, although not usually life-threatening. Now I am afraid. I agree with the cost argument against Purge, although I do find it viable on magblades who may manage their magicka by disengaging. Whether that will make for satisfying gameplay, I'm not sure.

Kwoung

MadeInVN wrote: »

Another screenshot demonstrating my point above about how it's pointless to run away from the templar. In this screenshot I ran away from the templar. He casted crecsent sweep and toppled me twice, one of which I blocked. The 2nd one got me. He literally landed ONE TICK OF PUNCTURING SWEEP. It critted for 12.1k damage. I took a total of 23k damage, over 60% of those were DoTs.

Please tell me how I can heal thru that?

Am I reading this right, you took 23K damage and that was enough to kill you? If so, your issue is you are about 9K health short of what you should have in PVP lately. Also, running away pretty much never works, regardless of what class is attacking you.

Kryptonite_Kent

I think the Devs summed this entire conversation up in the patch notes....


Haha Backlash go boom.



The end.

MadeInVN

L_Nici wrote: »

@MadeInVN So you rather want Backlash compared to Blastbones and Subs? Alright, Blastbones hit for about 7-9k and apply Major Defile, Subs can hit you for beyond 15k just like that, recast themselves or apply Major Breach in case of Fissure.

Sooo where is backlash a threat now? It just has its 9k damage, you first need to stack and Minor Breach on the Power of the Light morph.

Blastbones can be blocked and is mitigated by evasion. A typical blastbones right now against my 26k resist build does 4-5k dmg non crit. Sub assault can be blocked, can be moved out of, and is mitigated by evasion. It does slightly less dmg than blastbones

Backlash is unblockable, undodgable, is not affected by evasion, and actually increases in damage by 10% against a target holding block. It also does 10-12k consistent damage. You can in fact reach a 10k proc by just spamming light attacks. Try it for yourself and you will see.

Do you see why backlash is stronger?

Mayrael

The OP is absolutely right. Forgive me, but you can immediately see an experienced player when most people who disagree with him are simply prejudiced because they play templar.

I played magplar in PvP for a very long time (few years). After switching from magsorc, the difference was overwhelming. The ease with which templar is able to generate pressure is mind blowing, especially against targets that aren't tanks and have chosen evasion as their primary defense.

Therefore, the arguments cited by OP are very valid. At the end of the day, a templar has all the tools needed to not let someone escape his attack, and an experienced templar fighting another experienced player will have a clear advantage.

Dovahmiim

I'm a Magplar main. Backlash is seriously overbuffed. In it's current state it's equivalent to if stam blastbones or stam shalks (cos mag not that scary) were unblockable.
This being said, there's plenty of other overbuffed things in game. Surprise attack is outrageous, Stam Necro/Warden are way overbuffed all round etc. I think it's fair enough to leave this as it is if stamblades can hit 10k+ surprise attacks. It can cop a nerf when several stam classes are balanced.

L_Nici

@MadeInVN Not really. While Backslash itself can't be avoided, by avoiding the damage that is needed first to even get damage on it, you can avoid any further damage caused by it. If you stand like a pillar in a templars jabs, while Backlash is on you, then thats something you need to work on [snip] you can dodge, cleanse, break LoS and so on to deny the templar to even stack the damage. And exactly that is the reason why the damage stacks faster now, all that tools to avoid it, made backlash worthless, now it just works as intended.

And honestly I didn't even feel any more pressure than usual from templars, good templars always fully charged Backlash and since its damage wasn't touched basically nothing changed.

[edited for baiting]

MadeInVN

Kwoung wrote: »

MadeInVN wrote: »

Another screenshot demonstrating my point above about how it's pointless to run away from the templar. In this screenshot I ran away from the templar. He casted crecsent sweep and toppled me twice, one of which I blocked. The 2nd one got me. He literally landed ONE TICK OF PUNCTURING SWEEP. It critted for 12.1k damage. I took a total of 23k damage, over 60% of those were DoTs.

Please tell me how I can heal thru that?

Am I reading this right, you took 23K damage and that was enough to kill you? If so, your issue is you are about 9K health short of what you should have in PVP lately. Also, running away pretty much never works, regardless of what class is attacking you.

It’s about the ease of building the stored damage. Templar is a class with inherent high pressure. That’s why their delayed burst works like that - to make use of their pressure and build up burst. Other classes like wardens and necros don’t have high pressure, so they kill by having flat, instant burst. It’s just how those classes are designed.

Now what’s wrong with this change is the ease of building the stored damage. Suddenly you have a class with high pressure and high burst. This gives them a massive advantage over every other class because with a burst combo you can avoid it and take little damage, but with a pressure combo you just have to pray you have the mitigation and healing power to survive it. That’s why magdks are an absolute powerhouse in dueling because they have dots(pressure) and burst (flames of oblivion + molten whip). The only thing holding them back is mobility, but that’s a general issue for most mag classes

With the new backlash it is very easy to build up the stored damage by simply light attacking your opponents. Refer to my screenshot to see.

fred4

Kryptonite_Kent wrote: »

I think the Devs summed this entire conversation up in the patch notes....

Haha Backlash go boom.


The end.

I agree. That actually struck me as a surprisingly cynical acknowledgment, on ZOS' part, that they are never going to balance the game, but that they're just going to jerk players around from patch to patch. Either that or it is Gina being blissfully unaware, as usual, that PvPers take the game (at least somewhat) seriously as a competitive endeavour.

MadeInVN

relentless_turnip wrote: »

I played 10+ BG's last night and cyrodill for a couple of hours. Whilst there is certainly an increase in templars they felt only slightly more threatening than they did before the patch. Certainly didn't feel any worse than a good necro or warden. I appreciate this is early days though 🤷

I'm sorry @MadeInVN I'm just not seeing it. I think templars needed this tbh. I haven't tried my own stamplar yet, but am excited too 😁

That’s fine. You don’t have to deal with the troubles I have then 😄

MadeInVN

fred4 wrote: »

Kryptonite_Kent wrote: »

I think the Devs summed this entire conversation up in the patch notes....

Haha Backlash go boom.


The end.

I agree. That actually struck me as a surprisingly cynical acknowledgment, on ZOS' part, that they are never going to balance the game, but that they're just going to jerk players around from patch to patch. Either that or it is Gina being blissfully unaware, as usual, that PvPers take the game (at least somewhat) seriously as a competitive endeavour.

Gina was probably trying to throw a joke in there. She’s not a dev afaik so I don’t think she would intentionally make these changes.

Kryptonite_Kent

L_Nici wrote: »

@MadeInVN

And honestly I didn't even feel any more pressure than usual from templars, good templars always fully charged Backlash and since its damage wasn't touched basically nothing changed.

This times a million... the damage was not changed, a good templar always got the full charge unless they were stunned or los'd, etc.... he is complaining now because he wants to facetank and is getting rolled because its easier to get the full charge than before

Hurbster

As a PvE player who mains a templar, I like this change and don't want it walked back.

Ippokrates

MadeInVN wrote: »

Since I can’t seem to get my point across, here’s a simpler way:

If anyone is playing on PC NA, I will gladly hop on my magplar and duel any of you, just to demonstrate my point. Just friendly duels, no ill wills or salts. If anyone takes on this offer, please slot purge, streak, use line of sight, cloak, whatever you guys have suggested to me.

I will record the duel, blur your name, and post it on this thread for everyone to decide whether it’s an actual concern, or just me wanting to nerf everything.

Although it surely would be amusing, lets just focus on math, ok?

First thing, you made a mistake in your first post - you got hit for 18700 not a 15k, so sure, there is small error of around 400 dmg (probably due to battlespirit calculations) but the skill work as it should - 50% dmg was registered and release as a burst.

Now lets get to the theory part

In patch 30 potl was scaled with stamina at quite good coef 0.6, so my stamplar that had around 30k stamina, was getting around 18k burst dmg.

Now in PTS31 (UESP didn't update 31) I can see that main source was changed to 3xWD. So players with 6k wd would do ca. the same dmg - 18k. Sure, with glyphs & buffs you can push toward 7 or even 8k, which means that at the moment of burst you can get additional 3-6k, up to 24k. Still, with those values 6k wd + 30k stamina (and i am checking only UESP cause server is 🐹), within 6 sec window Warden bugs could hit you twice for around 26k totally and two Necro blasties could hit with around 28k total. Just from a skill released once (Warden) or twice (Necro). Sure, you can roll to avoid those dmg but IMHO a necessity to having skill that require from player more than roll feels kinda nice. Like we do not getting back to times of first computer pingpongs with soooo limited options ^^

BUT to reach such figures, templar had to previously to land attacks for 90k dmg (which is a little much in a pvp, right?) so it was around 4-5 fully succesfull series of jabs or DOT equivalent. Within 6 seconds window.

Now we need only 40k.

If you do not believe my math, check your screenshot and tell me how many attacks Templar should have landed to reach a previous values? Or maybe you think that 20% of 18k you had received, so 3,5k of "burst" once per 6 sec, was somehow more balanced than what we have now?

ResidentContrarian

This is the funniest thread I have seen on the forums in a long time. I knew the changes would be entertaining.

I've had zero issues with templars, or any classes for that matter. I guess the PTS cloak bugs being patched really is hurting players that thought it would be left as godmode.

Invest in tools to counter it (purge, more defensive stats), just like I have to invest in detection pots or waste slots/gear for cloakers and vampires.

"Adapt" or suffer the consequences of build decisions. This patch is more balanced than I thought.

techyeshic

MadeInVN wrote: »

Indigogo wrote: »

MadeInVN wrote: »

Indigogo wrote: »

This is just a complaint thread about anything that hits for 8k+, isn't it?

No, actually think about it before commenting please

You've yet to supply any valid reason as to why this is over performing or not comparable to other delayed burst abilities like Curse, BB, shalks....

They all hit for similar numbers or much, much higher.
Now, if it hit for 18k, I could see a reason for concern but 9k? Come on.

Good change for templars it looks like.

Okay so let me give you some reasons why it's not comparable and a concern.

Blastbones: can be blocked and mitigated by evasion
Shalks: can be moved out, blocked, and mitigated by evasion
Bow proc: can be roll dodged and blocked
Bound Armaments: can be roll dodged and blocked
Curse: Can only be cleansed
Backlash: Can only be cleansed or denied dmg stacking

Okay let's look at curse, the only ability that requires cleansing to mitigate damage. Magsorc's entire toolkit consists of ranged single target damage. Single target = can be roll dodged or blocked. So when you do those defensive maneuvers, you can heal through curse.

Let's look at backlash along with templar's entire toolkit. Most of their dmg are melee AoE, meaning you can't roll dodge and have to block or create distance. Seems easy right? Not entirely. You see, they have a skill called toppling charge. You can try to create distance, but they will spam it on you, and toppling charge can hit anywhere from 3k-4k damage alone. Not only that, but consecutive toppling charges also proc burning light for 2.5-3k, which is ALSO unblockable. Not only that, but most templars also use crescents and solar barrage, which are 2 AoE DoTs that you cannot cleanse. Crescent's DoT can hit anywhere between 4k-5k. So you have a templar with 2 AoE DoTs and a gap closer that can proc another unblockable single target dmg as you hopelessly try to create distance.

But here's why backlash is better than curse. First of all, templars deal 10% more damage to a blocking target, so if you block you eat 10% more damage from an already unblockable backlash. Second of all, the 50% damage scaling means if you deal 18k damage within 6 seconds, backlash will return half of that, or 9k damage. This isn't mitigated by battle spirit, btw. Why do I know that? Because look a this screenshot below:



From the moment my opponent casted back lash on me to the point where it "procced", I took 18k damage from JUST light attacks + degeneration ticks. Backlash returned 8.6k non crit damage.

So why is it a problem? Firstly, magicka templar even before backlash buff was already a very strong pressure class. It's drawback was lacking a good burst, but that's intended. If you put a good burst on a class that also has superior pressure, you're creating an imbalanced class. That's exactly the reason why if Necros and Wardens had the same pressure as magplar, they would be 4 tiers above everything else.

Secondly, the current counterplays for templar do not work very well. If you put a delayed burst ability on a class, you expect it to have counter play. What's the counterplay for haunting curse? You roll dodge so as to avoid the rest of their single target combo, giving you a chance to heal up. What's the counterplay for backlash? You create distance. You can't block their damage because backlash stores it super fast and gets amped up by 10% from your block. You have to create distance to take less damage. But in a real fight it's not possible. Templars have a very strong gap closer. They can also literally spam light attacks from you at range and still hit a fat backlash proc, like the screen shot I demonstrated. So you can't block because it makes backlash hit for more. You also can't run away because they can spam gapclosers or spam light attacks to store the damage super fast. What are you going to do?

You can't do anything, because there's no counterplay lol.. And before you tell me I need to adapt. No, I don't. I've dueled and fought against more templars than you know, some of which are top tier magplars for PC NA. I've lost a lot, and also won a lot, and here is what I and literally everyone can tell you about templar's counterplay - to create distance. But you can't even do that anymore, so what do you suggest I do if you think this ability is fine? Have you actually fought a templar with this new backlash? Please enlighten me.

You ate 21k damage in 6 seconds for it to get that high. You don't eat that much damage; POTL doesn't hit hard.

MadeInVN

techyeshic wrote: »

MadeInVN wrote: »

Indigogo wrote: »

MadeInVN wrote: »

Indigogo wrote: »

This is just a complaint thread about anything that hits for 8k+, isn't it?

No, actually think about it before commenting please

You've yet to supply any valid reason as to why this is over performing or not comparable to other delayed burst abilities like Curse, BB, shalks....

They all hit for similar numbers or much, much higher.
Now, if it hit for 18k, I could see a reason for concern but 9k? Come on.

Good change for templars it looks like.

Okay so let me give you some reasons why it's not comparable and a concern.

Blastbones: can be blocked and mitigated by evasion
Shalks: can be moved out, blocked, and mitigated by evasion
Bow proc: can be roll dodged and blocked
Bound Armaments: can be roll dodged and blocked
Curse: Can only be cleansed
Backlash: Can only be cleansed or denied dmg stacking

Okay let's look at curse, the only ability that requires cleansing to mitigate damage. Magsorc's entire toolkit consists of ranged single target damage. Single target = can be roll dodged or blocked. So when you do those defensive maneuvers, you can heal through curse.

Let's look at backlash along with templar's entire toolkit. Most of their dmg are melee AoE, meaning you can't roll dodge and have to block or create distance. Seems easy right? Not entirely. You see, they have a skill called toppling charge. You can try to create distance, but they will spam it on you, and toppling charge can hit anywhere from 3k-4k damage alone. Not only that, but consecutive toppling charges also proc burning light for 2.5-3k, which is ALSO unblockable. Not only that, but most templars also use crescents and solar barrage, which are 2 AoE DoTs that you cannot cleanse. Crescent's DoT can hit anywhere between 4k-5k. So you have a templar with 2 AoE DoTs and a gap closer that can proc another unblockable single target dmg as you hopelessly try to create distance.

But here's why backlash is better than curse. First of all, templars deal 10% more damage to a blocking target, so if you block you eat 10% more damage from an already unblockable backlash. Second of all, the 50% damage scaling means if you deal 18k damage within 6 seconds, backlash will return half of that, or 9k damage. This isn't mitigated by battle spirit, btw. Why do I know that? Because look a this screenshot below:



From the moment my opponent casted back lash on me to the point where it "procced", I took 18k damage from JUST light attacks + degeneration ticks. Backlash returned 8.6k non crit damage.

So why is it a problem? Firstly, magicka templar even before backlash buff was already a very strong pressure class. It's drawback was lacking a good burst, but that's intended. If you put a good burst on a class that also has superior pressure, you're creating an imbalanced class. That's exactly the reason why if Necros and Wardens had the same pressure as magplar, they would be 4 tiers above everything else.

Secondly, the current counterplays for templar do not work very well. If you put a delayed burst ability on a class, you expect it to have counter play. What's the counterplay for haunting curse? You roll dodge so as to avoid the rest of their single target combo, giving you a chance to heal up. What's the counterplay for backlash? You create distance. You can't block their damage because backlash stores it super fast and gets amped up by 10% from your block. You have to create distance to take less damage. But in a real fight it's not possible. Templars have a very strong gap closer. They can also literally spam light attacks from you at range and still hit a fat backlash proc, like the screen shot I demonstrated. So you can't block because it makes backlash hit for more. You also can't run away because they can spam gapclosers or spam light attacks to store the damage super fast. What are you going to do?

You can't do anything, because there's no counterplay lol.. And before you tell me I need to adapt. No, I don't. I've dueled and fought against more templars than you know, some of which are top tier magplars for PC NA. I've lost a lot, and also won a lot, and here is what I and literally everyone can tell you about templar's counterplay - to create distance. But you can't even do that anymore, so what do you suggest I do if you think this ability is fine? Have you actually fought a templar with this new backlash? Please enlighten me.

You ate 21k damage in 6 seconds for it to get that high. You don't eat that much damage; POTL doesn't hit hard.

The first Purifying Light tick doesn't count since it's the initial direct damage for applying the tick. After that everything counts up until it procs. I ate around 18.5k damage from just light attacks. The keyword here is light attacks. It would be fine if I ate a full damage combo with ultimate and other abilities, but he got purifying light to proc for almost 9k from just doing light attacks.

That literally means in a real fight someone could be sitting from 20 meters away, only spamming light attacks at you, and still hit you for 9k damage. You are already at range so you aren't taking any melee damage from him, but it still stores the damage way too fast. That's what I'm trying to bring up here.

Kryptonite_Kent

MadeInVN wrote: »

techyeshic wrote: »

MadeInVN wrote: »

Indigogo wrote: »

MadeInVN wrote: »

Indigogo wrote: »

This is just a complaint thread about anything that hits for 8k+, isn't it?

No, actually think about it before commenting please

You've yet to supply any valid reason as to why this is over performing or not comparable to other delayed burst abilities like Curse, BB, shalks....

They all hit for similar numbers or much, much higher.
Now, if it hit for 18k, I could see a reason for concern but 9k? Come on.

Good change for templars it looks like.

Okay so let me give you some reasons why it's not comparable and a concern.

Blastbones: can be blocked and mitigated by evasion
Shalks: can be moved out, blocked, and mitigated by evasion
Bow proc: can be roll dodged and blocked
Bound Armaments: can be roll dodged and blocked
Curse: Can only be cleansed
Backlash: Can only be cleansed or denied dmg stacking

Okay let's look at curse, the only ability that requires cleansing to mitigate damage. Magsorc's entire toolkit consists of ranged single target damage. Single target = can be roll dodged or blocked. So when you do those defensive maneuvers, you can heal through curse.

Let's look at backlash along with templar's entire toolkit. Most of their dmg are melee AoE, meaning you can't roll dodge and have to block or create distance. Seems easy right? Not entirely. You see, they have a skill called toppling charge. You can try to create distance, but they will spam it on you, and toppling charge can hit anywhere from 3k-4k damage alone. Not only that, but consecutive toppling charges also proc burning light for 2.5-3k, which is ALSO unblockable. Not only that, but most templars also use crescents and solar barrage, which are 2 AoE DoTs that you cannot cleanse. Crescent's DoT can hit anywhere between 4k-5k. So you have a templar with 2 AoE DoTs and a gap closer that can proc another unblockable single target dmg as you hopelessly try to create distance.

But here's why backlash is better than curse. First of all, templars deal 10% more damage to a blocking target, so if you block you eat 10% more damage from an already unblockable backlash. Second of all, the 50% damage scaling means if you deal 18k damage within 6 seconds, backlash will return half of that, or 9k damage. This isn't mitigated by battle spirit, btw. Why do I know that? Because look a this screenshot below:



From the moment my opponent casted back lash on me to the point where it "procced", I took 18k damage from JUST light attacks + degeneration ticks. Backlash returned 8.6k non crit damage.

So why is it a problem? Firstly, magicka templar even before backlash buff was already a very strong pressure class. It's drawback was lacking a good burst, but that's intended. If you put a good burst on a class that also has superior pressure, you're creating an imbalanced class. That's exactly the reason why if Necros and Wardens had the same pressure as magplar, they would be 4 tiers above everything else.

Secondly, the current counterplays for templar do not work very well. If you put a delayed burst ability on a class, you expect it to have counter play. What's the counterplay for haunting curse? You roll dodge so as to avoid the rest of their single target combo, giving you a chance to heal up. What's the counterplay for backlash? You create distance. You can't block their damage because backlash stores it super fast and gets amped up by 10% from your block. You have to create distance to take less damage. But in a real fight it's not possible. Templars have a very strong gap closer. They can also literally spam light attacks from you at range and still hit a fat backlash proc, like the screen shot I demonstrated. So you can't block because it makes backlash hit for more. You also can't run away because they can spam gapclosers or spam light attacks to store the damage super fast. What are you going to do?

You can't do anything, because there's no counterplay lol.. And before you tell me I need to adapt. No, I don't. I've dueled and fought against more templars than you know, some of which are top tier magplars for PC NA. I've lost a lot, and also won a lot, and here is what I and literally everyone can tell you about templar's counterplay - to create distance. But you can't even do that anymore, so what do you suggest I do if you think this ability is fine? Have you actually fought a templar with this new backlash? Please enlighten me.

You ate 21k damage in 6 seconds for it to get that high. You don't eat that much damage; POTL doesn't hit hard.

The first Purifying Light tick doesn't count since it's the initial direct damage for applying the tick. After that everything counts up until it procs. I ate around 18.5k damage from just light attacks. The keyword here is light attacks. It would be fine if I ate a full damage combo with ultimate and other abilities, but he got purifying light to proc for almost 9k from just doing light attacks.

That literally means in a real fight someone could be sitting from 20 meters away, only spamming light attacks at you, and still hit you for 9k damage. You are already at range so you aren't taking any melee damage from him, but it still stores the damage way too fast. That's what I'm trying to bring up here.

why does it matter if it was light attacks...they also had enchants hitting you, the point is you stood their and ate damage on purpose, no one does that unless they are facetanking, in which case you get what you get, sit their and eat damage from an ability that procs off of damage you take and what do you think is going to happen?????

MadeInVN

I actually respectfully asked people for duels to test things out. That's how you test stuff on PTS.. You duel people to see if a change is good or not. It's better to see the point when they actually play against it than read from a thread.

techyeshic

MadeInVN wrote: »

techyeshic wrote: »

MadeInVN wrote: »

Indigogo wrote: »

MadeInVN wrote: »

Indigogo wrote: »

This is just a complaint thread about anything that hits for 8k+, isn't it?

No, actually think about it before commenting please

You've yet to supply any valid reason as to why this is over performing or not comparable to other delayed burst abilities like Curse, BB, shalks....

They all hit for similar numbers or much, much higher.
Now, if it hit for 18k, I could see a reason for concern but 9k? Come on.

Good change for templars it looks like.

Okay so let me give you some reasons why it's not comparable and a concern.

Blastbones: can be blocked and mitigated by evasion
Shalks: can be moved out, blocked, and mitigated by evasion
Bow proc: can be roll dodged and blocked
Bound Armaments: can be roll dodged and blocked
Curse: Can only be cleansed
Backlash: Can only be cleansed or denied dmg stacking

Okay let's look at curse, the only ability that requires cleansing to mitigate damage. Magsorc's entire toolkit consists of ranged single target damage. Single target = can be roll dodged or blocked. So when you do those defensive maneuvers, you can heal through curse.

Let's look at backlash along with templar's entire toolkit. Most of their dmg are melee AoE, meaning you can't roll dodge and have to block or create distance. Seems easy right? Not entirely. You see, they have a skill called toppling charge. You can try to create distance, but they will spam it on you, and toppling charge can hit anywhere from 3k-4k damage alone. Not only that, but consecutive toppling charges also proc burning light for 2.5-3k, which is ALSO unblockable. Not only that, but most templars also use crescents and solar barrage, which are 2 AoE DoTs that you cannot cleanse. Crescent's DoT can hit anywhere between 4k-5k. So you have a templar with 2 AoE DoTs and a gap closer that can proc another unblockable single target dmg as you hopelessly try to create distance.

But here's why backlash is better than curse. First of all, templars deal 10% more damage to a blocking target, so if you block you eat 10% more damage from an already unblockable backlash. Second of all, the 50% damage scaling means if you deal 18k damage within 6 seconds, backlash will return half of that, or 9k damage. This isn't mitigated by battle spirit, btw. Why do I know that? Because look a this screenshot below:



From the moment my opponent casted back lash on me to the point where it "procced", I took 18k damage from JUST light attacks + degeneration ticks. Backlash returned 8.6k non crit damage.

So why is it a problem? Firstly, magicka templar even before backlash buff was already a very strong pressure class. It's drawback was lacking a good burst, but that's intended. If you put a good burst on a class that also has superior pressure, you're creating an imbalanced class. That's exactly the reason why if Necros and Wardens had the same pressure as magplar, they would be 4 tiers above everything else.

Secondly, the current counterplays for templar do not work very well. If you put a delayed burst ability on a class, you expect it to have counter play. What's the counterplay for haunting curse? You roll dodge so as to avoid the rest of their single target combo, giving you a chance to heal up. What's the counterplay for backlash? You create distance. You can't block their damage because backlash stores it super fast and gets amped up by 10% from your block. You have to create distance to take less damage. But in a real fight it's not possible. Templars have a very strong gap closer. They can also literally spam light attacks from you at range and still hit a fat backlash proc, like the screen shot I demonstrated. So you can't block because it makes backlash hit for more. You also can't run away because they can spam gapclosers or spam light attacks to store the damage super fast. What are you going to do?

You can't do anything, because there's no counterplay lol.. And before you tell me I need to adapt. No, I don't. I've dueled and fought against more templars than you know, some of which are top tier magplars for PC NA. I've lost a lot, and also won a lot, and here is what I and literally everyone can tell you about templar's counterplay - to create distance. But you can't even do that anymore, so what do you suggest I do if you think this ability is fine? Have you actually fought a templar with this new backlash? Please enlighten me.

You ate 21k damage in 6 seconds for it to get that high. You don't eat that much damage; POTL doesn't hit hard.

The first Purifying Light tick doesn't count since it's the initial direct damage for applying the tick. After that everything counts up until it procs. I ate around 18.5k damage from just light attacks. The keyword here is light attacks. It would be fine if I ate a full damage combo with ultimate and other abilities, but he got purifying light to proc for almost 9k from just doing light attacks.

That literally means in a real fight someone could be sitting from 20 meters away, only spamming light attacks at you, and still hit you for 9k damage. You are already at range so you aren't taking any melee damage from him, but it still stores the damage way too fast. That's what I'm trying to bring up here.

It has a max that it can store that is similar to blast ones, or 1 of 2 sub assaults, or most any burst skill. You say you can avoid those to counter; I am saying you can for POTL/PL as well. It's just in the build up rather than the burst.

Edit; I could agree with maybe DOTs not counting toward it by requiring direct damage, MAYBE. But that won't help you on light attacks

MadeInVN

Kryptonite_Kent wrote: »

MadeInVN wrote: »

techyeshic wrote: »

MadeInVN wrote: »

Indigogo wrote: »

MadeInVN wrote: »

Indigogo wrote: »

This is just a complaint thread about anything that hits for 8k+, isn't it?

No, actually think about it before commenting please

You've yet to supply any valid reason as to why this is over performing or not comparable to other delayed burst abilities like Curse, BB, shalks....

They all hit for similar numbers or much, much higher.
Now, if it hit for 18k, I could see a reason for concern but 9k? Come on.

Good change for templars it looks like.

Okay so let me give you some reasons why it's not comparable and a concern.

Blastbones: can be blocked and mitigated by evasion
Shalks: can be moved out, blocked, and mitigated by evasion
Bow proc: can be roll dodged and blocked
Bound Armaments: can be roll dodged and blocked
Curse: Can only be cleansed
Backlash: Can only be cleansed or denied dmg stacking

Okay let's look at curse, the only ability that requires cleansing to mitigate damage. Magsorc's entire toolkit consists of ranged single target damage. Single target = can be roll dodged or blocked. So when you do those defensive maneuvers, you can heal through curse.

Let's look at backlash along with templar's entire toolkit. Most of their dmg are melee AoE, meaning you can't roll dodge and have to block or create distance. Seems easy right? Not entirely. You see, they have a skill called toppling charge. You can try to create distance, but they will spam it on you, and toppling charge can hit anywhere from 3k-4k damage alone. Not only that, but consecutive toppling charges also proc burning light for 2.5-3k, which is ALSO unblockable. Not only that, but most templars also use crescents and solar barrage, which are 2 AoE DoTs that you cannot cleanse. Crescent's DoT can hit anywhere between 4k-5k. So you have a templar with 2 AoE DoTs and a gap closer that can proc another unblockable single target dmg as you hopelessly try to create distance.

But here's why backlash is better than curse. First of all, templars deal 10% more damage to a blocking target, so if you block you eat 10% more damage from an already unblockable backlash. Second of all, the 50% damage scaling means if you deal 18k damage within 6 seconds, backlash will return half of that, or 9k damage. This isn't mitigated by battle spirit, btw. Why do I know that? Because look a this screenshot below:



From the moment my opponent casted back lash on me to the point where it "procced", I took 18k damage from JUST light attacks + degeneration ticks. Backlash returned 8.6k non crit damage.

So why is it a problem? Firstly, magicka templar even before backlash buff was already a very strong pressure class. It's drawback was lacking a good burst, but that's intended. If you put a good burst on a class that also has superior pressure, you're creating an imbalanced class. That's exactly the reason why if Necros and Wardens had the same pressure as magplar, they would be 4 tiers above everything else.

Secondly, the current counterplays for templar do not work very well. If you put a delayed burst ability on a class, you expect it to have counter play. What's the counterplay for haunting curse? You roll dodge so as to avoid the rest of their single target combo, giving you a chance to heal up. What's the counterplay for backlash? You create distance. You can't block their damage because backlash stores it super fast and gets amped up by 10% from your block. You have to create distance to take less damage. But in a real fight it's not possible. Templars have a very strong gap closer. They can also literally spam light attacks from you at range and still hit a fat backlash proc, like the screen shot I demonstrated. So you can't block because it makes backlash hit for more. You also can't run away because they can spam gapclosers or spam light attacks to store the damage super fast. What are you going to do?

You can't do anything, because there's no counterplay lol.. And before you tell me I need to adapt. No, I don't. I've dueled and fought against more templars than you know, some of which are top tier magplars for PC NA. I've lost a lot, and also won a lot, and here is what I and literally everyone can tell you about templar's counterplay - to create distance. But you can't even do that anymore, so what do you suggest I do if you think this ability is fine? Have you actually fought a templar with this new backlash? Please enlighten me.

You ate 21k damage in 6 seconds for it to get that high. You don't eat that much damage; POTL doesn't hit hard.

The first Purifying Light tick doesn't count since it's the initial direct damage for applying the tick. After that everything counts up until it procs. I ate around 18.5k damage from just light attacks. The keyword here is light attacks. It would be fine if I ate a full damage combo with ultimate and other abilities, but he got purifying light to proc for almost 9k from just doing light attacks.

That literally means in a real fight someone could be sitting from 20 meters away, only spamming light attacks at you, and still hit you for 9k damage. You are already at range so you aren't taking any melee damage from him, but it still stores the damage way too fast. That's what I'm trying to bring up here.

why does it matter if it was light attacks...they also had enchants hitting you, the point is you stood their and ate damage on purpose, no one does that unless they are facetanking, in which case you get what you get, sit their and eat damage from an ability that procs off of damage you take and what do you think is going to happen?????

It matters because if I can just spam 7 light attacks at people to get a 9k backlash proc why do I even need to use any abilities? The whole point of backlash's mechanic is to give people a way to counterplay, but when you can build a 9k proc by simply light attacking without using any freaking resources on your part, then what exactly is the counter play here? They can just reapply backlash and spam light attacks and sit at full resources while you try your life to survive.

MadeInVN

techyeshic wrote: »

MadeInVN wrote: »

techyeshic wrote: »

MadeInVN wrote: »

Indigogo wrote: »

MadeInVN wrote: »

Indigogo wrote: »

This is just a complaint thread about anything that hits for 8k+, isn't it?

No, actually think about it before commenting please

You've yet to supply any valid reason as to why this is over performing or not comparable to other delayed burst abilities like Curse, BB, shalks....

They all hit for similar numbers or much, much higher.
Now, if it hit for 18k, I could see a reason for concern but 9k? Come on.

Good change for templars it looks like.

Okay so let me give you some reasons why it's not comparable and a concern.

Blastbones: can be blocked and mitigated by evasion
Shalks: can be moved out, blocked, and mitigated by evasion
Bow proc: can be roll dodged and blocked
Bound Armaments: can be roll dodged and blocked
Curse: Can only be cleansed
Backlash: Can only be cleansed or denied dmg stacking

Okay let's look at curse, the only ability that requires cleansing to mitigate damage. Magsorc's entire toolkit consists of ranged single target damage. Single target = can be roll dodged or blocked. So when you do those defensive maneuvers, you can heal through curse.

Let's look at backlash along with templar's entire toolkit. Most of their dmg are melee AoE, meaning you can't roll dodge and have to block or create distance. Seems easy right? Not entirely. You see, they have a skill called toppling charge. You can try to create distance, but they will spam it on you, and toppling charge can hit anywhere from 3k-4k damage alone. Not only that, but consecutive toppling charges also proc burning light for 2.5-3k, which is ALSO unblockable. Not only that, but most templars also use crescents and solar barrage, which are 2 AoE DoTs that you cannot cleanse. Crescent's DoT can hit anywhere between 4k-5k. So you have a templar with 2 AoE DoTs and a gap closer that can proc another unblockable single target dmg as you hopelessly try to create distance.

But here's why backlash is better than curse. First of all, templars deal 10% more damage to a blocking target, so if you block you eat 10% more damage from an already unblockable backlash. Second of all, the 50% damage scaling means if you deal 18k damage within 6 seconds, backlash will return half of that, or 9k damage. This isn't mitigated by battle spirit, btw. Why do I know that? Because look a this screenshot below:



From the moment my opponent casted back lash on me to the point where it "procced", I took 18k damage from JUST light attacks + degeneration ticks. Backlash returned 8.6k non crit damage.

So why is it a problem? Firstly, magicka templar even before backlash buff was already a very strong pressure class. It's drawback was lacking a good burst, but that's intended. If you put a good burst on a class that also has superior pressure, you're creating an imbalanced class. That's exactly the reason why if Necros and Wardens had the same pressure as magplar, they would be 4 tiers above everything else.

Secondly, the current counterplays for templar do not work very well. If you put a delayed burst ability on a class, you expect it to have counter play. What's the counterplay for haunting curse? You roll dodge so as to avoid the rest of their single target combo, giving you a chance to heal up. What's the counterplay for backlash? You create distance. You can't block their damage because backlash stores it super fast and gets amped up by 10% from your block. You have to create distance to take less damage. But in a real fight it's not possible. Templars have a very strong gap closer. They can also literally spam light attacks from you at range and still hit a fat backlash proc, like the screen shot I demonstrated. So you can't block because it makes backlash hit for more. You also can't run away because they can spam gapclosers or spam light attacks to store the damage super fast. What are you going to do?

You can't do anything, because there's no counterplay lol.. And before you tell me I need to adapt. No, I don't. I've dueled and fought against more templars than you know, some of which are top tier magplars for PC NA. I've lost a lot, and also won a lot, and here is what I and literally everyone can tell you about templar's counterplay - to create distance. But you can't even do that anymore, so what do you suggest I do if you think this ability is fine? Have you actually fought a templar with this new backlash? Please enlighten me.

You ate 21k damage in 6 seconds for it to get that high. You don't eat that much damage; POTL doesn't hit hard.

The first Purifying Light tick doesn't count since it's the initial direct damage for applying the tick. After that everything counts up until it procs. I ate around 18.5k damage from just light attacks. The keyword here is light attacks. It would be fine if I ate a full damage combo with ultimate and other abilities, but he got purifying light to proc for almost 9k from just doing light attacks.

That literally means in a real fight someone could be sitting from 20 meters away, only spamming light attacks at you, and still hit you for 9k damage. You are already at range so you aren't taking any melee damage from him, but it still stores the damage way too fast. That's what I'm trying to bring up here.

It has a max that it can store that is similar to blast ones, or 1 of 2 sub assaults, or most any burst skill. You say you can avoid those to counter; I am saying you can for POTL/PL as well. It's just in the build up rather than the burst.

Edit; I could agree with maybe DOTs not counting toward it by requiring direct damage, MAYBE. But that won't help you on light attacks

If the buildup was easily avoidable then this change would be perfectly balance, I agree. But at the moment it is not the case in a real fight. Templars have many ways to chase someone down even if they try to run away. They can also build it super quickly with just light attacks.

I think if the proc was at least dodgable it wouldn't be an issue.

Kryptonite_Kent

MadeInVN wrote: »

Kryptonite_Kent wrote: »

MadeInVN wrote: »

techyeshic wrote: »

MadeInVN wrote: »

Indigogo wrote: »

MadeInVN wrote: »

Indigogo wrote: »

This is just a complaint thread about anything that hits for 8k+, isn't it?

No, actually think about it before commenting please

You've yet to supply any valid reason as to why this is over performing or not comparable to other delayed burst abilities like Curse, BB, shalks....

They all hit for similar numbers or much, much higher.
Now, if it hit for 18k, I could see a reason for concern but 9k? Come on.

Good change for templars it looks like.

Okay so let me give you some reasons why it's not comparable and a concern.

Blastbones: can be blocked and mitigated by evasion
Shalks: can be moved out, blocked, and mitigated by evasion
Bow proc: can be roll dodged and blocked
Bound Armaments: can be roll dodged and blocked
Curse: Can only be cleansed
Backlash: Can only be cleansed or denied dmg stacking

Okay let's look at curse, the only ability that requires cleansing to mitigate damage. Magsorc's entire toolkit consists of ranged single target damage. Single target = can be roll dodged or blocked. So when you do those defensive maneuvers, you can heal through curse.

Let's look at backlash along with templar's entire toolkit. Most of their dmg are melee AoE, meaning you can't roll dodge and have to block or create distance. Seems easy right? Not entirely. You see, they have a skill called toppling charge. You can try to create distance, but they will spam it on you, and toppling charge can hit anywhere from 3k-4k damage alone. Not only that, but consecutive toppling charges also proc burning light for 2.5-3k, which is ALSO unblockable. Not only that, but most templars also use crescents and solar barrage, which are 2 AoE DoTs that you cannot cleanse. Crescent's DoT can hit anywhere between 4k-5k. So you have a templar with 2 AoE DoTs and a gap closer that can proc another unblockable single target dmg as you hopelessly try to create distance.

But here's why backlash is better than curse. First of all, templars deal 10% more damage to a blocking target, so if you block you eat 10% more damage from an already unblockable backlash. Second of all, the 50% damage scaling means if you deal 18k damage within 6 seconds, backlash will return half of that, or 9k damage. This isn't mitigated by battle spirit, btw. Why do I know that? Because look a this screenshot below:



From the moment my opponent casted back lash on me to the point where it "procced", I took 18k damage from JUST light attacks + degeneration ticks. Backlash returned 8.6k non crit damage.

So why is it a problem? Firstly, magicka templar even before backlash buff was already a very strong pressure class. It's drawback was lacking a good burst, but that's intended. If you put a good burst on a class that also has superior pressure, you're creating an imbalanced class. That's exactly the reason why if Necros and Wardens had the same pressure as magplar, they would be 4 tiers above everything else.

Secondly, the current counterplays for templar do not work very well. If you put a delayed burst ability on a class, you expect it to have counter play. What's the counterplay for haunting curse? You roll dodge so as to avoid the rest of their single target combo, giving you a chance to heal up. What's the counterplay for backlash? You create distance. You can't block their damage because backlash stores it super fast and gets amped up by 10% from your block. You have to create distance to take less damage. But in a real fight it's not possible. Templars have a very strong gap closer. They can also literally spam light attacks from you at range and still hit a fat backlash proc, like the screen shot I demonstrated. So you can't block because it makes backlash hit for more. You also can't run away because they can spam gapclosers or spam light attacks to store the damage super fast. What are you going to do?

You can't do anything, because there's no counterplay lol.. And before you tell me I need to adapt. No, I don't. I've dueled and fought against more templars than you know, some of which are top tier magplars for PC NA. I've lost a lot, and also won a lot, and here is what I and literally everyone can tell you about templar's counterplay - to create distance. But you can't even do that anymore, so what do you suggest I do if you think this ability is fine? Have you actually fought a templar with this new backlash? Please enlighten me.

You ate 21k damage in 6 seconds for it to get that high. You don't eat that much damage; POTL doesn't hit hard.

The first Purifying Light tick doesn't count since it's the initial direct damage for applying the tick. After that everything counts up until it procs. I ate around 18.5k damage from just light attacks. The keyword here is light attacks. It would be fine if I ate a full damage combo with ultimate and other abilities, but he got purifying light to proc for almost 9k from just doing light attacks.

That literally means in a real fight someone could be sitting from 20 meters away, only spamming light attacks at you, and still hit you for 9k damage. You are already at range so you aren't taking any melee damage from him, but it still stores the damage way too fast. That's what I'm trying to bring up here.

why does it matter if it was light attacks...they also had enchants hitting you, the point is you stood their and ate damage on purpose, no one does that unless they are facetanking, in which case you get what you get, sit their and eat damage from an ability that procs off of damage you take and what do you think is going to happen?????

It matters because if I can just spam 7 light attacks at people to get a 9k backlash proc why do I even need to use any abilities? The whole point of backlash's mechanic is to give people a way to counterplay, but when you can build a 9k proc by simply light attacking without using any freaking resources on your part, then what exactly is the counter play here? They can just reapply backlash and spam light attacks and sit at full resources while you try your life to survive.

Youre not going to just stand there and get hit by 7 light attacks are you? Cant you block, or dodge roll, or use a cloak pot, or a cleanse, or anything... like light attacks are suddenly not avoidable now? lmao I mean cmon dude...

Kryptonite_Kent

techyeshic wrote: »

MadeInVN wrote: »

techyeshic wrote: »

MadeInVN wrote: »

Indigogo wrote: »

MadeInVN wrote: »

Indigogo wrote: »

This is just a complaint thread about anything that hits for 8k+, isn't it?

No, actually think about it before commenting please

You've yet to supply any valid reason as to why this is over performing or not comparable to other delayed burst abilities like Curse, BB, shalks....

They all hit for similar numbers or much, much higher.
Now, if it hit for 18k, I could see a reason for concern but 9k? Come on.

Good change for templars it looks like.

Okay so let me give you some reasons why it's not comparable and a concern.

Blastbones: can be blocked and mitigated by evasion
Shalks: can be moved out, blocked, and mitigated by evasion
Bow proc: can be roll dodged and blocked
Bound Armaments: can be roll dodged and blocked
Curse: Can only be cleansed
Backlash: Can only be cleansed or denied dmg stacking

Okay let's look at curse, the only ability that requires cleansing to mitigate damage. Magsorc's entire toolkit consists of ranged single target damage. Single target = can be roll dodged or blocked. So when you do those defensive maneuvers, you can heal through curse.

Let's look at backlash along with templar's entire toolkit. Most of their dmg are melee AoE, meaning you can't roll dodge and have to block or create distance. Seems easy right? Not entirely. You see, they have a skill called toppling charge. You can try to create distance, but they will spam it on you, and toppling charge can hit anywhere from 3k-4k damage alone. Not only that, but consecutive toppling charges also proc burning light for 2.5-3k, which is ALSO unblockable. Not only that, but most templars also use crescents and solar barrage, which are 2 AoE DoTs that you cannot cleanse. Crescent's DoT can hit anywhere between 4k-5k. So you have a templar with 2 AoE DoTs and a gap closer that can proc another unblockable single target dmg as you hopelessly try to create distance.

But here's why backlash is better than curse. First of all, templars deal 10% more damage to a blocking target, so if you block you eat 10% more damage from an already unblockable backlash. Second of all, the 50% damage scaling means if you deal 18k damage within 6 seconds, backlash will return half of that, or 9k damage. This isn't mitigated by battle spirit, btw. Why do I know that? Because look a this screenshot below:



From the moment my opponent casted back lash on me to the point where it "procced", I took 18k damage from JUST light attacks + degeneration ticks. Backlash returned 8.6k non crit damage.

So why is it a problem? Firstly, magicka templar even before backlash buff was already a very strong pressure class. It's drawback was lacking a good burst, but that's intended. If you put a good burst on a class that also has superior pressure, you're creating an imbalanced class. That's exactly the reason why if Necros and Wardens had the same pressure as magplar, they would be 4 tiers above everything else.

Secondly, the current counterplays for templar do not work very well. If you put a delayed burst ability on a class, you expect it to have counter play. What's the counterplay for haunting curse? You roll dodge so as to avoid the rest of their single target combo, giving you a chance to heal up. What's the counterplay for backlash? You create distance. You can't block their damage because backlash stores it super fast and gets amped up by 10% from your block. You have to create distance to take less damage. But in a real fight it's not possible. Templars have a very strong gap closer. They can also literally spam light attacks from you at range and still hit a fat backlash proc, like the screen shot I demonstrated. So you can't block because it makes backlash hit for more. You also can't run away because they can spam gapclosers or spam light attacks to store the damage super fast. What are you going to do?

You can't do anything, because there's no counterplay lol.. And before you tell me I need to adapt. No, I don't. I've dueled and fought against more templars than you know, some of which are top tier magplars for PC NA. I've lost a lot, and also won a lot, and here is what I and literally everyone can tell you about templar's counterplay - to create distance. But you can't even do that anymore, so what do you suggest I do if you think this ability is fine? Have you actually fought a templar with this new backlash? Please enlighten me.

You ate 21k damage in 6 seconds for it to get that high. You don't eat that much damage; POTL doesn't hit hard.

The first Purifying Light tick doesn't count since it's the initial direct damage for applying the tick. After that everything counts up until it procs. I ate around 18.5k damage from just light attacks. The keyword here is light attacks. It would be fine if I ate a full damage combo with ultimate and other abilities, but he got purifying light to proc for almost 9k from just doing light attacks.

That literally means in a real fight someone could be sitting from 20 meters away, only spamming light attacks at you, and still hit you for 9k damage. You are already at range so you aren't taking any melee damage from him, but it still stores the damage way too fast. That's what I'm trying to bring up here.

It has a max that it can store that is similar to blast ones, or 1 of 2 sub assaults, or most any burst skill. You say you can avoid those to counter; I am saying you can for POTL/PL as well. It's just in the build up rather than the burst.

Edit; I could agree with maybe DOTs not counting toward it by requiring direct damage, MAYBE. But that won't help you on light attacks

That would completely ruin the ability, a lot of templars skill set is dots, including jabs... all of which are CLEANSABLE including the backlash lol....

MadeInVN

Kryptonite_Kent wrote: »

MadeInVN wrote: »

Kryptonite_Kent wrote: »

MadeInVN wrote: »

techyeshic wrote: »

MadeInVN wrote: »

Indigogo wrote: »

MadeInVN wrote: »

Indigogo wrote: »

This is just a complaint thread about anything that hits for 8k+, isn't it?

No, actually think about it before commenting please

You've yet to supply any valid reason as to why this is over performing or not comparable to other delayed burst abilities like Curse, BB, shalks....

They all hit for similar numbers or much, much higher.
Now, if it hit for 18k, I could see a reason for concern but 9k? Come on.

Good change for templars it looks like.

Okay so let me give you some reasons why it's not comparable and a concern.

Blastbones: can be blocked and mitigated by evasion
Shalks: can be moved out, blocked, and mitigated by evasion
Bow proc: can be roll dodged and blocked
Bound Armaments: can be roll dodged and blocked
Curse: Can only be cleansed
Backlash: Can only be cleansed or denied dmg stacking

Okay let's look at curse, the only ability that requires cleansing to mitigate damage. Magsorc's entire toolkit consists of ranged single target damage. Single target = can be roll dodged or blocked. So when you do those defensive maneuvers, you can heal through curse.

Let's look at backlash along with templar's entire toolkit. Most of their dmg are melee AoE, meaning you can't roll dodge and have to block or create distance. Seems easy right? Not entirely. You see, they have a skill called toppling charge. You can try to create distance, but they will spam it on you, and toppling charge can hit anywhere from 3k-4k damage alone. Not only that, but consecutive toppling charges also proc burning light for 2.5-3k, which is ALSO unblockable. Not only that, but most templars also use crescents and solar barrage, which are 2 AoE DoTs that you cannot cleanse. Crescent's DoT can hit anywhere between 4k-5k. So you have a templar with 2 AoE DoTs and a gap closer that can proc another unblockable single target dmg as you hopelessly try to create distance.

But here's why backlash is better than curse. First of all, templars deal 10% more damage to a blocking target, so if you block you eat 10% more damage from an already unblockable backlash. Second of all, the 50% damage scaling means if you deal 18k damage within 6 seconds, backlash will return half of that, or 9k damage. This isn't mitigated by battle spirit, btw. Why do I know that? Because look a this screenshot below:



From the moment my opponent casted back lash on me to the point where it "procced", I took 18k damage from JUST light attacks + degeneration ticks. Backlash returned 8.6k non crit damage.

So why is it a problem? Firstly, magicka templar even before backlash buff was already a very strong pressure class. It's drawback was lacking a good burst, but that's intended. If you put a good burst on a class that also has superior pressure, you're creating an imbalanced class. That's exactly the reason why if Necros and Wardens had the same pressure as magplar, they would be 4 tiers above everything else.

Secondly, the current counterplays for templar do not work very well. If you put a delayed burst ability on a class, you expect it to have counter play. What's the counterplay for haunting curse? You roll dodge so as to avoid the rest of their single target combo, giving you a chance to heal up. What's the counterplay for backlash? You create distance. You can't block their damage because backlash stores it super fast and gets amped up by 10% from your block. You have to create distance to take less damage. But in a real fight it's not possible. Templars have a very strong gap closer. They can also literally spam light attacks from you at range and still hit a fat backlash proc, like the screen shot I demonstrated. So you can't block because it makes backlash hit for more. You also can't run away because they can spam gapclosers or spam light attacks to store the damage super fast. What are you going to do?

You can't do anything, because there's no counterplay lol.. And before you tell me I need to adapt. No, I don't. I've dueled and fought against more templars than you know, some of which are top tier magplars for PC NA. I've lost a lot, and also won a lot, and here is what I and literally everyone can tell you about templar's counterplay - to create distance. But you can't even do that anymore, so what do you suggest I do if you think this ability is fine? Have you actually fought a templar with this new backlash? Please enlighten me.

You ate 21k damage in 6 seconds for it to get that high. You don't eat that much damage; POTL doesn't hit hard.

The first Purifying Light tick doesn't count since it's the initial direct damage for applying the tick. After that everything counts up until it procs. I ate around 18.5k damage from just light attacks. The keyword here is light attacks. It would be fine if I ate a full damage combo with ultimate and other abilities, but he got purifying light to proc for almost 9k from just doing light attacks.

That literally means in a real fight someone could be sitting from 20 meters away, only spamming light attacks at you, and still hit you for 9k damage. You are already at range so you aren't taking any melee damage from him, but it still stores the damage way too fast. That's what I'm trying to bring up here.

why does it matter if it was light attacks...they also had enchants hitting you, the point is you stood their and ate damage on purpose, no one does that unless they are facetanking, in which case you get what you get, sit their and eat damage from an ability that procs off of damage you take and what do you think is going to happen?????

It matters because if I can just spam 7 light attacks at people to get a 9k backlash proc why do I even need to use any abilities? The whole point of backlash's mechanic is to give people a way to counterplay, but when you can build a 9k proc by simply light attacking without using any freaking resources on your part, then what exactly is the counter play here? They can just reapply backlash and spam light attacks and sit at full resources while you try your life to survive.

Youre not going to just stand there and get hit by 7 light attacks are you? Cant you block, or dodge roll, or use a cloak pot, or a cleanse, or anything... like light attacks are suddenly not avoidable now? lmao I mean cmon dude...

That's not the point. Let me copy this phrase in another comment I made:

Let's look at backlash along with templar's entire toolkit. Most of their dmg are melee AoE, meaning you can't roll dodge and have to block or create distance. Seems easy right? Not entirely. You see, they have a skill called toppling charge. You can try to create distance, but they will spam it on you, and toppling charge can hit anywhere from 3k-4k damage alone. Not only that, but consecutive toppling charges also proc burning light for 2.5-3k, which is ALSO unblockable. Not only that, but most templars also use crescents and solar barrage, which are 2 AoE DoTs that you cannot cleanse. Crescent's DoT can hit anywhere between 4k-5k. So you have a templar with 2 AoE DoTs and a gap closer that can proc another unblockable single target dmg as you hopelessly try to create distance.

So why is current backlash a problem? Firstly, magicka templar even before backlash buff was already a very strong pressure class. It's drawback was lacking a good burst, but that's intended. If you put a good burst on a class that also has superior pressure, you're creating an imbalanced class. That's exactly the reason why if Necros and Wardens had the same pressure as magplar, they would be 4 tiers above everything else.

Secondly, the current counterplays for templar do not work very well. If you put a delayed burst ability on a class, you expect it to have counter play. What's the counterplay for haunting curse? You roll dodge so as to avoid the rest of their single target combo, giving you a chance to heal up. What's the counterplay for backlash? You create distance. You can't block their damage because backlash stores it super fast and gets amped up by 10% from your block. You have to create distance to take less damage. But in a real fight it's not possible. Templars have a very strong gap closer. They can also literally spam light attacks from you at range and still hit a fat backlash proc, like the screen shot I demonstrated. So you can't block because it makes backlash hit for more. You also can't run away because they can spam gapclosers or spam light attacks to store the damage super fast. What are you going to do?

The point is 1) It's way too easy to stack the damage right now, and 2) Most of the counters you or people have listed are ineffective against a templar because they can also stack high speed with the new speed CP, swift, race against time, and toppling charge spam. I say this because I have been chased down by magplars in cyrodiil a lot, and they were very relentless.

Ippokrates

MadeInVN wrote: »

techyeshic wrote: »

MadeInVN wrote: »

Indigogo wrote: »

MadeInVN wrote: »

Indigogo wrote: »

This is just a complaint thread about anything that hits for 8k+, isn't it?

No, actually think about it before commenting please

You've yet to supply any valid reason as to why this is over performing or not comparable to other delayed burst abilities like Curse, BB, shalks....

They all hit for similar numbers or much, much higher.
Now, if it hit for 18k, I could see a reason for concern but 9k? Come on.

Good change for templars it looks like.

Okay so let me give you some reasons why it's not comparable and a concern.

Blastbones: can be blocked and mitigated by evasion
Shalks: can be moved out, blocked, and mitigated by evasion
Bow proc: can be roll dodged and blocked
Bound Armaments: can be roll dodged and blocked
Curse: Can only be cleansed
Backlash: Can only be cleansed or denied dmg stacking

Okay let's look at curse, the only ability that requires cleansing to mitigate damage. Magsorc's entire toolkit consists of ranged single target damage. Single target = can be roll dodged or blocked. So when you do those defensive maneuvers, you can heal through curse.

Let's look at backlash along with templar's entire toolkit. Most of their dmg are melee AoE, meaning you can't roll dodge and have to block or create distance. Seems easy right? Not entirely. You see, they have a skill called toppling charge. You can try to create distance, but they will spam it on you, and toppling charge can hit anywhere from 3k-4k damage alone. Not only that, but consecutive toppling charges also proc burning light for 2.5-3k, which is ALSO unblockable. Not only that, but most templars also use crescents and solar barrage, which are 2 AoE DoTs that you cannot cleanse. Crescent's DoT can hit anywhere between 4k-5k. So you have a templar with 2 AoE DoTs and a gap closer that can proc another unblockable single target dmg as you hopelessly try to create distance.

But here's why backlash is better than curse. First of all, templars deal 10% more damage to a blocking target, so if you block you eat 10% more damage from an already unblockable backlash. Second of all, the 50% damage scaling means if you deal 18k damage within 6 seconds, backlash will return half of that, or 9k damage. This isn't mitigated by battle spirit, btw. Why do I know that? Because look a this screenshot below:



From the moment my opponent casted back lash on me to the point where it "procced", I took 18k damage from JUST light attacks + degeneration ticks. Backlash returned 8.6k non crit damage.

So why is it a problem? Firstly, magicka templar even before backlash buff was already a very strong pressure class. It's drawback was lacking a good burst, but that's intended. If you put a good burst on a class that also has superior pressure, you're creating an imbalanced class. That's exactly the reason why if Necros and Wardens had the same pressure as magplar, they would be 4 tiers above everything else.

Secondly, the current counterplays for templar do not work very well. If you put a delayed burst ability on a class, you expect it to have counter play. What's the counterplay for haunting curse? You roll dodge so as to avoid the rest of their single target combo, giving you a chance to heal up. What's the counterplay for backlash? You create distance. You can't block their damage because backlash stores it super fast and gets amped up by 10% from your block. You have to create distance to take less damage. But in a real fight it's not possible. Templars have a very strong gap closer. They can also literally spam light attacks from you at range and still hit a fat backlash proc, like the screen shot I demonstrated. So you can't block because it makes backlash hit for more. You also can't run away because they can spam gapclosers or spam light attacks to store the damage super fast. What are you going to do?

You can't do anything, because there's no counterplay lol.. And before you tell me I need to adapt. No, I don't. I've dueled and fought against more templars than you know, some of which are top tier magplars for PC NA. I've lost a lot, and also won a lot, and here is what I and literally everyone can tell you about templar's counterplay - to create distance. But you can't even do that anymore, so what do you suggest I do if you think this ability is fine? Have you actually fought a templar with this new backlash? Please enlighten me.

You ate 21k damage in 6 seconds for it to get that high. You don't eat that much damage; POTL doesn't hit hard.

The first Purifying Light tick doesn't count since it's the initial direct damage for applying the tick. After that everything counts up until it procs. I ate around 18.5k damage from just light attacks. The keyword here is light attacks. It would be fine if I ate a full damage combo with ultimate and other abilities, but he got purifying light to proc for almost 9k from just doing light attacks.

That literally means in a real fight someone could be sitting from 20 meters away, only spamming light attacks at you, and still hit you for 9k damage. You are already at range so you aren't taking any melee damage from him, but it still stores the damage way too fast. That's what I'm trying to bring up here.

Actually, it is counting. First, check values in your screenshot. Second thing, read description of skill very carefully - you have three important parts:
1. You summoning beam of light
2. Beam deals dmg
3. Beam is copying dmg.

I know, it is description made in kinda ESO style (like my favourite "up to" or Zaan ^^), but after some time you learn to read them properly.

Lady_Galadhiel

I am not very experienced in PvP but the only class what causes me trouble no matter if in Cyrodiil or Bgs are Templars
Also playing a magSorc and I always had that problem.

Daffen

There are counters, but the counters are way harder to achieve than it is to build up the full damage proc. That is the problem i believe.

Best tip i would have is to have a decent build which i am sure you allready have and very importantly blocking the toppling charge and rolling through the jabs, after a backlash they will always try to stun or spam jabs or apply dots. I main stamdk and i played some on the PTS to test new monster set and after swapping over to a magplar which i have never played before killed a guy faster than on my stamdk. And that was with me playing from EU with 200+ ping and positional desyncs which cause 50% of jabs to miss for no reason.

You miss the block on their stun, you eat 2-3 jabs maybe which is like 4-6k dmg and maybe some burning light proc. If they use aoe fear then its less damage from stun but guarantees some jabs hits.

ResidentContrarian

Daffen wrote: »

There are counters, but the counters are way harder to achieve than it is to build up the full damage proc. That is the problem i believe.

What counter is easier to achieve than either slotting purge skill, moving, using roll and block for all the damage so it can't build up as much, running more hp, or using a purge set? Alternatively, you could always kill them before they kill you --

The skill has more and better counters than streak and cloak do.

Yet, it needs a trillion posts that amount to nothing more than a large rant with little substance other than

I am skilled, I got killed therefore the skill is too strong; don't doubt me, I am for real

No one has demonstrated how the skill is worse than any other burst skill in the game, other than "oh no, templars can fight back against me now and its harder to fight them because this patch my cheese was melted."

I would tell you what I really think as the ResidentContrarian, but it's better restricted to that.

mmtaniac

Templar finally have tool that work ,not like before scratching enemy in back feel no damage and still it require templar skill to fill bar to deal maximum damage, its easy to counter just force templar to enter turtle mode if you can't you do something wrong i met many good players that force me to do this and before patch i just wait on my death now i can finally fight back.