seldomseenkd wrote: »StevieKingslayer wrote: »seldomseenkd wrote: »I didn't say anything about people queuing as fake roles.
I also didn't make an argument. I'm simply rejecting yours because you haven't explained how the group finder intrinsically entitles you to a chance of completing the dungeon. Entitled means "gives you the right" not "gives you the chance".
That is the -entire- point of the group finder or it wouldn't exist to serve that purpose to put those roles together, in that set up, for those dungeons. The same reason there is no TRIALS group finder, because you can have hybrid dps and support builds in there and thus a finder wouldnt work for them, In dungeons - Not so, you need somewhat balance.
LordHev's comment above explains it perfectly.
I never stated that any had the right to anything other than the right to attempt to complete the dungeon - That is what the dungeon finder is for. Explain to me what you think the dungeon finder is for, if not for the chance to complete a dungeon? XD
This is called trying to shift the burden of proof.
Once again, I don't need to counter your argument. I can just reject it because you haven't explained the basis upon which the dungeon finder tool entitles you to a chance of completing the dungeon. A solid argument can be made for it giving you the chance to, but giving you the right to? Who or what says?
All you've done is privileged your definition of what you think the dungeon finder's function should be.
spartaxoxo wrote: »It's more like you put out a job request for some temporary workers and they agree they can do the job. You expect they can agree to do the job they signed up for.
We aren't sending out random invites to 4 people at a dolmen and then expecting a cohesive group.
The entire purpose of the group finder is to match you with people who can do a certain role. There is NO point to group finder or even having the ability to queue for a role at all, if there is no basic expectation that people can do the role they signed up for the barest minimum required of the dungeon.
Ah, I love it. Classic move. When you don't have a counter argument, don't worry, just argue semantics. Brilliant! =D
StevieKingslayer wrote: »That is utterly ridiculous and Im not explaining to you again how a dungeon finder works. As per your narrative, Im just rejecting your opinion as you just want to argue semantics' when the fact is anyone that uses a finder for something, should be able to find the roles filled correctly on usage. Use all the big words you want man, it's not changing the fact that we both have two very different opinions, and this conversation between us is going nowhere so lets end it on decent terms. We both reject each others opinion, Have a wonderful day
LFG does not entitle you to a group with people that match your expectations.
daijyashinb16_ESO wrote: »"Oh, I've got Heavy Armour and Gaze of Sithis on, but don't need a taunt. Besides, sometimes you just don't get what you want."
I point out that they complained about their previous healer. They rage up a storm and then just leave.
You enter a dungeon queue with random strangers. You have no idea what gear they have, skills they have chosen etc.
This is no different from walking up to a stranger in the street, giving them a wad of cash and instructing them to build you a new house.
In both cases you have not done your due dilligence in interviewing them or performing background checks for their suitability to the role.
Now, you wouldn't do the latter in real life so why are you entitled to expect a better result with the former?
So let me make this clear - LFG does not entitle you to a group with people that match your expectations.
you can see all those usually...You enter a dungeon queue with random strangers. You have no idea what gear they have, skills they have chosen etc.wrong. It is like walking to a stranger on the street that advertises he can build a house, just like in queue they press agree to fulfilling the role they queued for in the veteran dungeon.This is no different from walking up to a stranger in the street, giving them a wad of cash and instructing them to build you a new house.because in real life you will be able to sue him for fraud.In both cases you have not done your due dilligence in interviewing them or performing background checks for their suitability to the role.
Now, you wouldn't do the latter in real life so why are you entitled to expect a better result with the former?So let me make this clear - LFG does not entitle you to a group with people that match your expectations.
The existence of no penalties does not entitle anyone to lie about their ability to preform a role. And I have full right to expect people that agreed to fulfill their role, to actually do so.
You enter a dungeon queue with random strangers. You have no idea what gear they have, skills they have chosen etc.
This is no different from walking up to a stranger in the street, giving them a wad of cash and instructing them to build you a new house.
In both cases you have not done your due dilligence in interviewing them or performing background checks for their suitability to the role.
Now, you wouldn't do the latter in real life so why are you entitled to expect a better result with the former?
So let me make this clear - LFG does not entitle you to a group with people that match your expectations.
neferpitou73 wrote: »There's a new thread on this topic, what, every week? It's getting tiresome.
It's a game, some people are going to play by the rules, some aren't. The dungeon finder isn't some magical contract that you enter into. You have no "right to expect people to play a certain way." Are you really expecting internet strangers to be courteous?
[snip]
...no? Unless you're PC using some kind of peeping addon. Otherwise no you don't know what gear someone is wearing unless they link them in chat.
Not even exactly sure what the OP's point is. People aren't entitled to expect a group of decent players for Dungeons?
There will never be a fix to human nature and teamwork with strangers. There is no team game where this problem doesn't exist. The only thing that can be controlled is the extent of frustration. So we'll continue to see this topic every week for forever.neferpitou73 wrote: »There's a new thread on this topic, what, every week? It's getting tiresome.
It's a game, some people are going to play by the rules, some aren't. The dungeon finder isn't some magical contract that you enter into. You have no "right to expect people to play a certain way." Are you really expecting internet strangers to be courteous?
[snip]
neferpitou73 wrote: »There's a new thread on this topic, what, every week? It's getting tiresome.
It's a game, some people are going to play by the rules, some aren't. The dungeon finder isn't some magical contract that you enter into. You have no "right to expect people to play a certain way." Are you really expecting internet strangers to be courteous?
[snip]
There will never be a fix to human nature and teamwork with strangers. There is no team game where this problem doesn't exist. The only thing that can be controlled is the extent of frustration. So we'll continue to see this topic every week for forever.
So I think the real issue is why these things are bothering us so much. Waiting 30 to 50 minutes to get a group as a DD, and then wasting more time, even up to an hour if you try giving people a chance, for a failed run when you have to run the dungeon 20+ times to get all the gear you want/need... That's the frustrating part.
You enter a dungeon queue with random strangers. You have no idea what gear they have, skills they have chosen etc.
This is no different from walking up to a stranger in the street, giving them a wad of cash and instructing them to build you a new house.
spartaxoxo wrote: »There will never be a fix to human nature and teamwork with strangers. There is no team game where this problem doesn't exist. The only thing that can be controlled is the extent of frustration. So we'll continue to see this topic every week for forever.neferpitou73 wrote: »There's a new thread on this topic, what, every week? It's getting tiresome.
It's a game, some people are going to play by the rules, some aren't. The dungeon finder isn't some magical contract that you enter into. You have no "right to expect people to play a certain way." Are you really expecting internet strangers to be courteous?
[snip]
Other games I have played have this problem far, far less, because they do a decent job of teaching people what to do prior to them getting to dungeon level. I know other mmos have enabled tests you have to pass to get to run the dungeons.
Either way or a hybrid of both, ZOS is to blame for the problem.
It is ZOS that allows the vast majority of dps to be locked behind unituitive mechanics that are barely explained in the game (animation canceling, weaving).
It is ZOS that doesn't put any kind of proving content before people can enter vet content, so that they can ensure a baseline level of competency.
It is ZOS that has no story mode, gives the same level of transmute rewards for normal and vet, and fails to implement more fungal grotto level dungeons for years.
All of these things exacerbate the situation by increasing the tensions between the two groups of players.
More casual players who feel hurried constantly not to explore dungeons and forced into content they don't feel like doing, while simultaneously having the content they do enjoy doing ruined by overleveled players chasing endgame rewards. And who are constantly being reminded in game about how they aren't good enough while having the tools to get good enough be locked behind things that are far beyond enjoyable gameplay.
And more experienced players who feel like they are constantly being forced into challenging content with people who aren't prepared (and some cases knowingly so) and expected to carry their slack and waste their time without a complaint. If they complain about bare minimum standards not being met, or kick someone because they are declining to help then they are name-called as toxic, elitist, entitled, etc.
ZOS cannot completely solve the problem, but they can dang sure do better than what they are doing.
well this is what this post is about.
I feel these emotions are aimed at fake DD/Tank/Healer players.
I never. Ever. Have said no. To explaining something during a dungeon. If you are a newbie, and willing to learn, I will 100% welcome you. As long as you are willing to preform your role, I can give pointers. But this post is about fake roles. And the mass majority of 1000+ CP players fake queuing.Newbies really don't deserve this kind of entitlement from you or anybody.
wrong. The vast majority does their job. I ain't expecting 70k+ parses on dungeon bosses (though when I get those it is nice). This is about those who are unwilling to try. Those who play in a certain way which is not good enough for the role they queued for in the veteran dungeon, and are unwilling to change that even though they know what they do.And it's really toxic too. I bet most people in there just don't have a clue.
please. Please inform me, how I can tell that dd, that spams endless hail, that it literally means that he deals no damage, without hurting his feelings. I have seen many people here claim that "you are arrogant, you are being mean" then I ask again, how can I help people like that, without them being offended. serious question. If you got no way to do that, then don't patronise those who try to help. I salute them, because I got tired of it long ago because of all the dds that just didn't care what I said. 80%+ of the times they just ignore you, and keep doing whatever they were doing.And players that know and "try" to teach them usually come off as completely arogant, so no wonder it's not changing.
It's ZOS fault mainly. But they're not obligated to provide a solution for any of us. We're entitled to ***, all of us, regardless of how much we paid. No really. You don't own anything. Your accounts are property of the developing company.
If anything can be done it's that ZOS has to step in and in the very least create some sort of proving grounds for newbies to teach and train them. That's about it.
Most gear has one effect or another. You need to be blind to not see maw for example.
...no? Unless you're PC using some kind of peeping addon. Otherwise no you don't know what gear someone is wearing unless they link them in chat.
Most gear has one effect or another. You need to be blind to not see maw for example.
...no? Unless you're PC using some kind of peeping addon. Otherwise no you don't know what gear someone is wearing unless they link them in chat.