This fake entitlement must stop

neferpitou73

There's a new thread on this topic, what, every week? It's getting tiresome.

It's a game, some people are going to play by the rules, some aren't. The dungeon finder isn't some magical contract that you enter into. You have no "right to expect people to play a certain way." Are you really expecting internet strangers to be courteous?

You'll save yourself a lot of time and headache if you just accept the fact that some people aren't going to play the role they are supposed to. The tank might not tank, the healer might not heal. If it bothers you slot a taunt, slot a self heal and roll with it. Or make a your own group. You're grouping with randos. And Tbh you shouldn't need a tank for anything outside a vet II dungeon and higher. If you can't dps down a boss in a normal dungeon without a tank (unless it's some weird mechanic) work on your rotation.

I used to try to tank pugs. The dps could rarely take down the boss. I've had people ignore what I said about mechanics, give me lip when I told them to stop standing in stupid and I've had more of those instances than fake tank instances. So I stopped trying.

StevieKingslayer

seldomseenkd wrote: »

StevieKingslayer wrote: »

seldomseenkd wrote: »

I didn't say anything about people queuing as fake roles.

I also didn't make an argument. I'm simply rejecting yours because you haven't explained how the group finder intrinsically entitles you to a chance of completing the dungeon. Entitled means "gives you the right" not "gives you the chance".

That is the -entire- point of the group finder or it wouldn't exist to serve that purpose to put those roles together, in that set up, for those dungeons. The same reason there is no TRIALS group finder, because you can have hybrid dps and support builds in there and thus a finder wouldnt work for them, In dungeons - Not so, you need somewhat balance.

LordHev's comment above explains it perfectly.

I never stated that any had the right to anything other than the right to attempt to complete the dungeon - That is what the dungeon finder is for. Explain to me what you think the dungeon finder is for, if not for the chance to complete a dungeon? XD

This is called trying to shift the burden of proof.

Once again, I don't need to counter your argument. I can just reject it because you haven't explained the basis upon which the dungeon finder tool entitles you to a chance of completing the dungeon. A solid argument can be made for it giving you the chance to, but giving you the right to? Who or what says?

All you've done is privileged your definition of what you think the dungeon finder's function should be.

That is utterly ridiculous and Im not explaining to you again how a dungeon finder works. As per your narrative, Im just rejecting your opinion as you just want to argue semantics' when the fact is anyone that uses a finder for something, should be able to find the roles filled correctly on usage. Use all the big words you want man, it's not changing the fact that we both have two very different opinions, and this conversation between us is going nowhere so lets end it on decent terms. We both reject each others opinion, Have a wonderful day

Roztlin45

Just like all the systems in real life that were based on the honor system are now ruined, the game is just a microcosm of that reality. People are not going to queue at the proper roll and do the right thing because their time is more important than yours. This will never be fixed in pug dungeons.

Michae

Ah, I love it. Classic move. When you don't have a counter argument, don't worry, just argue semantics. Brilliant! =D

seldomseenkd

spartaxoxo wrote: »

It's more like you put out a job request for some temporary workers and they agree they can do the job. You expect they can agree to do the job they signed up for.

We aren't sending out random invites to 4 people at a dolmen and then expecting a cohesive group.

The entire purpose of the group finder is to match you with people who can do a certain role. There is NO point to group finder or even having the ability to queue for a role at all, if there is no basic expectation that people can do the role they signed up for the barest minimum required of the dungeon.

This is an excellent analogy.

I agree the purpose of a job request is to attract applications from qualified people. It would be ideal if only qualified people applied, but the reality never works out that way. Unqualified people will always apply because they really need the money. You can create an automatic system that filters out people who don't have the qualifications, but then people will just flat out lie about their qualifications.

The solution is to hold interviews before you offer people the job. I think we just disagree on the form these interviews should take. I think the dungeon mechanics themselves already do a great job at filtering out who should complete the dungeon and who should not. You would prefer unqualified applicants to be filtered out before they got the job of being grouped with you. Totally understand where you're coming from, and would likely feel the same if it was my time being wasted.

Sephyr

Michae wrote: »

Ah, I love it. Classic move. When you don't have a counter argument, don't worry, just argue semantics. Brilliant! =D

Pretty common on the forum lately. It's a shame ignores only do so much.

StevieKingslayer

Michae wrote: »

Ah, I love it. Classic move. When you don't have a counter argument, don't worry, just argue semantics. Brilliant! =D

Well not really, It's kind of hard for two people of such strongly opposing views to really ever see eye to eye. Even if provided with counter argument's it's essentially pointless, I provided my thoughts on it, he provided his, it is what it is. Continuing it on this persons post is kind of irrelevant.

I mean, my counter argument to OP saying Im entitled for wanting people to queue as their correct roles for dungeons and work to actually complete said dungeon, is that they are entitled for not doing it my way. So who's really entitled? Everyone really. Having gone away and thought more about it, it is legitimately just down to the people and it doesn't matter what anyone really thinks or feels.

Way I see it; Dungeon finder is Tank, Healer, 2 dps. That's it, no arguments. Others may see it differently, but honestly? I really don't care.

seldomseenkd

StevieKingslayer wrote: »

That is utterly ridiculous and Im not explaining to you again how a dungeon finder works. As per your narrative, Im just rejecting your opinion as you just want to argue semantics' when the fact is anyone that uses a finder for something, should be able to find the roles filled correctly on usage. Use all the big words you want man, it's not changing the fact that we both have two very different opinions, and this conversation between us is going nowhere so lets end it on decent terms. We both reject each others opinion, Have a wonderful day

Ah the "I'm only expressing an opinion" defence. In good faith I'll accept this clarification regarding your intent.

SirAndy

Twyst wrote: »

LFG does not entitle you to a group with people that match your expectations.

That entirely depends on your expectations:
Whenever i do random dungeons, i fully expect to solo the dungeon and carry my team mates.

And since that almost never happens, 99% of the time, my dungeon runs go better than expected.

starkerealm

daijyashinb16_ESO wrote: »

"Oh, I've got Heavy Armour and Gaze of Sithis on, but don't need a taunt. Besides, sometimes you just don't get what you want."

I point out that they complained about their previous healer. They rage up a storm and then just leave.

*Bashes head into desk repeatedly.*

I mean, I'll admit, I frequently run an Asylum 2h back bar on my tanks, for ult gen, but I have a ******* taunt.

Ugh.

Jierdanit

Twyst wrote: »

You enter a dungeon queue with random strangers. You have no idea what gear they have, skills they have chosen etc.
This is no different from walking up to a stranger in the street, giving them a wad of cash and instructing them to build you a new house.

In both cases you have not done your due dilligence in interviewing them or performing background checks for their suitability to the role.
Now, you wouldn't do the latter in real life so why are you entitled to expect a better result with the former?

So let me make this clear - LFG does not entitle you to a group with people that match your expectations.

You can also see this exactly the other way around though...

Everyone who queues for content should be able to complete that content and pretty much "say" that they are capable of that by queuing.

So in my opinion its more like someone telling you they can build your house and you only find out they dont actually know what theyre doing until they come to you to build it and you end up with a broken mess.

LFG certainly doesnt entitle you to going in without knowing what you do, where you pretty much have to be carried by the other people in your group.

Sheezabeast

You're not entering with strangers. You're entering with people who chose what role in the group they filled, and then selected group finder. Group finder paired you by roles, as strangers. You have the minimal expectation that you are grouped with people who are under the correct label. It is not entitled to have minimal expectations, that's horribly narcissistic and enabling of toxic behavior, good lord!

Fischblut

I had one memorable friend long time ago. If he wasn't so oppressive about forcing me to run dungeons for hours every day just cause he enjoyed dungeons too much, we would still be friends... Even to this day, I haven't seen anyone else who loved to run dungeons as much as he.

Anyway, he had characters of all roles, but his favourite was tank. And he was very good at that.
But what was the best in him - he had zero tolerance to fake roles. And sometimes he didn't even give a newly-arrived player any chance. DD or healer have suspicious amount of health? Kick at the very start of the dungeon!

With him in group, I always knew that we'll get all people to perform their roles properly - noone is getting free carry We could circle through few players during the dungeon, but it was worth it.

I really miss him when I'm actually in the mood for a veteran dungeon run Very good tank, and very good group filter = perfect.

As for my own opinion about fake roles - in veteran dungeon from Group Finder, this is unacceptable. Getting premade group with tank and 3 dds - good, if everyone agrees.
In normal dungeon, it depends on ability of other players to stay alive, follow mechanics and do damage. If tank is just a good DD in disguise, and has Inner Fire taunt slotted, and he can survive the boss - I don't mind this. Although, I could have done the same with my DD for a short queue
My characters have some heals, so I can survive if the group has fake healer. If healer is a good DD in disguise, it's also no problem.

But generally, I prefer all people to do their roles. If a player is not ready for group content and their role, but he still queues for a dungeon - such player shows disrespect to his future group. So he can't expect the group to respect him either.
Even if player is new to the dungeon, he is expected to know basics of his chosen role. Group members can explain the mechanics when there is need.

dcam86b14_ESO

nowadays if I do LFG I expect everyone to be slightly brain dead or botting so I just keep some of my dps gear on as a healer lol.

ArchMikem

zvavi wrote: »

Twyst wrote: »

You enter a dungeon queue with random strangers. You have no idea what gear they have, skills they have chosen etc.

you can see all those usually...

...no? Unless you're PC using some kind of peeping addon. Otherwise no you don't know what gear someone is wearing unless they link them in chat.

Not even exactly sure what the OP's point is. People aren't entitled to expect a group of decent players for Dungeons?

NylAR

zvavi wrote: »

Twyst wrote: »

You enter a dungeon queue with random strangers. You have no idea what gear they have, skills they have chosen etc.

you can see all those usually...

This is no different from walking up to a stranger in the street, giving them a wad of cash and instructing them to build you a new house.

wrong. It is like walking to a stranger on the street that advertises he can build a house, just like in queue they press agree to fulfilling the role they queued for in the veteran dungeon.

In both cases you have not done your due dilligence in interviewing them or performing background checks for their suitability to the role.
Now, you wouldn't do the latter in real life so why are you entitled to expect a better result with the former?

because in real life you will be able to sue him for fraud.

So let me make this clear - LFG does not entitle you to a group with people that match your expectations.

The existence of no penalties does not entitle anyone to lie about their ability to preform a role. And I have full right to expect people that agreed to fulfill their role, to actually do so.

I feel these emotions are aimed at fake DD/Tank/Healer players.

Newbies really don't deserve this kind of entitlement from you or anybody.

And it's really toxic too. I bet most people in there just don't have a clue. And players that know and "try" to teach them usually come off as completely arogant, so no wonder it's not changing.

It's ZOS fault mainly. But they're not obligated to provide a solution for any of us. We're entitled to ***, all of us, regardless of how much we paid. No really. You don't own anything. Your accounts are property of the developing company.

If anything can be done it's that ZOS has to step in and in the very least create some sort of proving grounds for newbies to teach and train them. That's about it.

jle30303

Fake healers in normal, non-DLC dungeons are honestly not really a problem if they can real-DD - *even if they don't heal at all*. To be honest, in normal non-DLC dungeons, any class can slot a self-heal and still pretty much walk through the content. Most classes shouldn't even need to slot a self-heal. There are a rare few exceptions - a couple of the "II" dungeons, which were originally designed as veteran-only (their corresponding "I" versions were originally normal-only).

In veteran, or in DLC, it may be a different story.

Klad

Twyst wrote: »

You enter a dungeon queue with random strangers. You have no idea what gear they have, skills they have chosen etc.
This is no different from walking up to a stranger in the street, giving them a wad of cash and instructing them to build you a new house.

In both cases you have not done your due dilligence in interviewing them or performing background checks for their suitability to the role.
Now, you wouldn't do the latter in real life so why are you entitled to expect a better result with the former?

So let me make this clear - LFG does not entitle you to a group with people that match your expectations.

Console?

The PC LFD is pretty dead theses days most folks I know are maxing out Companions and are blowing through anything under VET. I know that is dependant on what sets you have etc...but we literally have a "use this" web page so it's not rocket surgery.

Wolfenbelle

This entire conversation highlights why I avoid group content 99% of my time in ESO. It rarely is an enjoyable experience.

TTHHORR

neferpitou73 wrote: »

There's a new thread on this topic, what, every week? It's getting tiresome.

It's a game, some people are going to play by the rules, some aren't. The dungeon finder isn't some magical contract that you enter into. You have no "right to expect people to play a certain way." Are you really expecting internet strangers to be courteous?
[snip]

There will never be a fix to human nature and teamwork with strangers. There is no team game where this problem doesn't exist. The only thing that can be controlled is the extent of frustration. So we'll continue to see this topic every week for forever.

So I think the real issue is why these things are bothering us so much. Waiting 30 to 50 minutes to get a group as a DD, and then wasting more time, even up to an hour if you try giving people a chance, for a failed run when you have to run the dungeon 20+ times to get all the gear you want/need... That's the frustrating part.

starkerealm

ArchMikem wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

Twyst wrote: »

You enter a dungeon queue with random strangers. You have no idea what gear they have, skills they have chosen etc.

you can see all those usually...

...no? Unless you're PC using some kind of peeping addon. Otherwise no you don't know what gear someone is wearing unless they link them in chat.

Not even exactly sure what the OP's point is. People aren't entitled to expect a group of decent players for Dungeons?

There's no addons that support that. Back at launch you could see what skills someone had slotted, and their stam/mag pools, but that API function was blocked very early on for fairly obvious reasons.

spartaxoxo

TTHHORR wrote: »

neferpitou73 wrote: »

There's a new thread on this topic, what, every week? It's getting tiresome.

It's a game, some people are going to play by the rules, some aren't. The dungeon finder isn't some magical contract that you enter into. You have no "right to expect people to play a certain way." Are you really expecting internet strangers to be courteous?
[snip]

There will never be a fix to human nature and teamwork with strangers. There is no team game where this problem doesn't exist. The only thing that can be controlled is the extent of frustration. So we'll continue to see this topic every week for forever.

Other games I have played have this problem far, far less, because they do a decent job of teaching people what to do prior to them getting to dungeon level. I know other mmos have enabled tests you have to pass to get to run the dungeons.

Either way or a hybrid of both, ZOS is to blame for the problem.

It is ZOS that allows the vast majority of dps to be locked behind unituitive mechanics that are barely explained in the game (animation canceling, weaving).

It is ZOS that doesn't put any kind of proving content before people can enter vet content, so that they can ensure a baseline level of competency.

It is ZOS that has no story mode, gives the same level of transmute rewards for normal and vet, and fails to implement more fungal grotto level dungeons for years.

All of these things exacerbate the situation by increasing the tensions between the two groups of players.

More casual players who feel hurried constantly not to explore dungeons and forced into content they don't feel like doing, while simultaneously having the content they do enjoy doing ruined by overleveled players chasing endgame rewards. And who are constantly being reminded in game about how they aren't good enough while having the tools to get good enough be locked behind things that are far beyond enjoyable gameplay.

And more experienced players who feel like they are constantly being forced into challenging content with people who aren't prepared (and some cases knowingly so) and expected to carry their slack and waste their time without a complaint. If they complain about bare minimum standards not being met, or kick someone because they are declining to help then they are name-called as toxic, elitist, entitled, etc.

ZOS cannot completely solve the problem, but they can dang sure do better than what they are doing.

neferpitou73

TTHHORR wrote: »

neferpitou73 wrote: »

There's a new thread on this topic, what, every week? It's getting tiresome.

It's a game, some people are going to play by the rules, some aren't. The dungeon finder isn't some magical contract that you enter into. You have no "right to expect people to play a certain way." Are you really expecting internet strangers to be courteous?
[snip]

There will never be a fix to human nature and teamwork with strangers. There is no team game where this problem doesn't exist. The only thing that can be controlled is the extent of frustration. So we'll continue to see this topic every week for forever.

So I think the real issue is why these things are bothering us so much. Waiting 30 to 50 minutes to get a group as a DD, and then wasting more time, even up to an hour if you try giving people a chance, for a failed run when you have to run the dungeon 20+ times to get all the gear you want/need... That's the frustrating part.

You're correct. It's also frustrating when you queue as a tank or a healer and your dps just stands around light attacking on the boss. Both these problems stem from a larger issue which is ZOS not teaching their players how to actually run the group content in game.

El_Borracho

You enter a dungeon queue with random strangers. You have no idea what gear they have, skills they have chosen etc.
This is no different from walking up to a stranger in the street, giving them a wad of cash and instructing them to build you a new house.

I'm queueing to kill imaginary beasts with magical weapons, not hiring a general contractor. Kind of different in every way.

TTHHORR

spartaxoxo wrote: »

TTHHORR wrote: »

neferpitou73 wrote: »

There's a new thread on this topic, what, every week? It's getting tiresome.

It's a game, some people are going to play by the rules, some aren't. The dungeon finder isn't some magical contract that you enter into. You have no "right to expect people to play a certain way." Are you really expecting internet strangers to be courteous?
[snip]

There will never be a fix to human nature and teamwork with strangers. There is no team game where this problem doesn't exist. The only thing that can be controlled is the extent of frustration. So we'll continue to see this topic every week for forever.

Other games I have played have this problem far, far less, because they do a decent job of teaching people what to do prior to them getting to dungeon level. I know other mmos have enabled tests you have to pass to get to run the dungeons.

Either way or a hybrid of both, ZOS is to blame for the problem.

It is ZOS that allows the vast majority of dps to be locked behind unituitive mechanics that are barely explained in the game (animation canceling, weaving).

It is ZOS that doesn't put any kind of proving content before people can enter vet content, so that they can ensure a baseline level of competency.

It is ZOS that has no story mode, gives the same level of transmute rewards for normal and vet, and fails to implement more fungal grotto level dungeons for years.

All of these things exacerbate the situation by increasing the tensions between the two groups of players.

More casual players who feel hurried constantly not to explore dungeons and forced into content they don't feel like doing, while simultaneously having the content they do enjoy doing ruined by overleveled players chasing endgame rewards. And who are constantly being reminded in game about how they aren't good enough while having the tools to get good enough be locked behind things that are far beyond enjoyable gameplay.

And more experienced players who feel like they are constantly being forced into challenging content with people who aren't prepared (and some cases knowingly so) and expected to carry their slack and waste their time without a complaint. If they complain about bare minimum standards not being met, or kick someone because they are declining to help then they are name-called as toxic, elitist, entitled, etc.

ZOS cannot completely solve the problem, but they can dang sure do better than what they are doing.

Couldn't agree more. There are many vet dungeons I haven't done because I don't feel like reading and memorizing the mechanics for them on separate websites/video tutorials and I don't want to punish others by learning them as we play because the game doesn't teach you. The small tiny hints they leave sometimes are really not enough

zvavi

NylAR wrote: »

I feel these emotions are aimed at fake DD/Tank/Healer players.

well this is what this post is about.

Newbies really don't deserve this kind of entitlement from you or anybody.

I never. Ever. Have said no. To explaining something during a dungeon. If you are a newbie, and willing to learn, I will 100% welcome you. As long as you are willing to preform your role, I can give pointers. But this post is about fake roles. And the mass majority of 1000+ CP players fake queuing.

And it's really toxic too. I bet most people in there just don't have a clue.

wrong. The vast majority does their job. I ain't expecting 70k+ parses on dungeon bosses (though when I get those it is nice). This is about those who are unwilling to try. Those who play in a certain way which is not good enough for the role they queued for in the veteran dungeon, and are unwilling to change that even though they know what they do.

And players that know and "try" to teach them usually come off as completely arogant, so no wonder it's not changing.

please. Please inform me, how I can tell that dd, that spams endless hail, that it literally means that he deals no damage, without hurting his feelings. I have seen many people here claim that "you are arrogant, you are being mean" then I ask again, how can I help people like that, without them being offended. serious question. If you got no way to do that, then don't patronise those who try to help. I salute them, because I got tired of it long ago because of all the dds that just didn't care what I said. 80%+ of the times they just ignore you, and keep doing whatever they were doing.

It's ZOS fault mainly. But they're not obligated to provide a solution for any of us. We're entitled to ***, all of us, regardless of how much we paid. No really. You don't own anything. Your accounts are property of the developing company.

If anything can be done it's that ZOS has to step in and in the very least create some sort of proving grounds for newbies to teach and train them. That's about it.

This part is the only thing I agree with! Everything else is a "you are bullying new players" propaganda which has nothing to do with anything I said.

Chips_Ahoy

Twyst wrote: »

This is no different from walking up to a stranger in the street, giving them a wad of cash and instructing them to build you a new house.

WTF, lol.

this forum never ceases to amaze me.

neferpitou73

The general thing about these threads on "fake roles" is, let's be honest, 80% of the playerbase walks into dungeons unprepared for what's expected of them. This isn't an attack on anyone, not criticizing anyone's dps or tanking skills, we all did it when we first started and only grew out of it when we read online what we were supposed to be doing. This is a result of not preparing players for group content in game.

Calls to enforce roles or change the dungeon finder aren't going to help anything until that's fixed.

Until then I don't care who's in my group so long as they get me through the content in a reasonable amount of time and are at the very least respectful. If the tank's doing 80k dps while I'm slotting a taunt on my healer to do his job, Godspeed fake tank, Godspeed

zvavi

ArchMikem wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

Twyst wrote: »

You enter a dungeon queue with random strangers. You have no idea what gear they have, skills they have chosen etc.

you can see all those usually...

...no? Unless you're PC using some kind of peeping addon. Otherwise no you don't know what gear someone is wearing unless they link them in chat.

Most gear has one effect or another. You need to be blind to not see maw for example.

ArchMikem

zvavi wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

Twyst wrote: »

You enter a dungeon queue with random strangers. You have no idea what gear they have, skills they have chosen etc.

you can see all those usually...

...no? Unless you're PC using some kind of peeping addon. Otherwise no you don't know what gear someone is wearing unless they link them in chat.

Most gear has one effect or another. You need to be blind to not see maw for example.

Flat stat sets don't have effects. No one can tell my NB wears Spriggans and Leviathan, and Balorgh only shows on Ult cast.