This fake entitlement must stop

Twyst

You enter a dungeon queue with random strangers. You have no idea what gear they have, skills they have chosen etc.
This is no different from walking up to a stranger in the street, giving them a wad of cash and instructing them to build you a new house.

In both cases you have not done your due dilligence in interviewing them or performing background checks for their suitability to the role.
Now, you wouldn't do the latter in real life so why are you entitled to expect a better result with the former?

So let me make this clear - LFG does not entitle you to a group with people that match your expectations.

zvavi

Twyst wrote: »

You enter a dungeon queue with random strangers. You have no idea what gear they have, skills they have chosen etc.

you can see all those usually...

This is no different from walking up to a stranger in the street, giving them a wad of cash and instructing them to build you a new house.

wrong. It is like walking to a stranger on the street that advertises he can build a house, just like in queue they press agree to fulfilling the role they queued for in the veteran dungeon.

In both cases you have not done your due dilligence in interviewing them or performing background checks for their suitability to the role.
Now, you wouldn't do the latter in real life so why are you entitled to expect a better result with the former?

because in real life you will be able to sue him for fraud.

So let me make this clear - LFG does not entitle you to a group with people that match your expectations.

The existence of no penalties does not entitle anyone to lie about their ability to preform a role. And I have full right to expect people that agreed to fulfill their role, to actually do so.

StevieKingslayer

If I sign up for an LFG as a tank, I expect the DPS to do DPS and the healer to do healing.

...Thats the legitimately the point for the roles. Its not entitlement for me to expect for people to queue for their roles. Idc if they are crap at it, I care if they are actually attempting their role. I'd rather bash my head against the spindleclutch 2 dps wall with low dps than deal with a healer that thought he could dps. Or most recently, in our VMHK where the "healer" was a dps, ran ahead and pulled everything, getting one person locked out of the boss area and acting like a total rude entitled dork.

Dont queue for roles you're not even gonna attempt. Idc if you call me entitled tbh. It's not "queue as a random role", it's "Tank, Healer, 2 DPS."

Idc if a dps wants to off heal a bit too, go for your life, as long as you're contributing DPS. Otherwise get out.

seldomseenkd

The dungeon finder entitles you to be matched with a random group. It does not entitle you to complete the dungeon.

Grandchamp1989

This is no different from walking up to a stranger in the street, giving them a wad of cash and instructing them to build you a new house.

Bad example.

In dungeon finder you choose a role because you expect you can fulfill the minimum requirements for that role.

It would be like going on a roadtrip 4 people into the woods - On the roadtrip you advertise you need 4 strangers with the following skillset:

- 1 chef
- 1 who can read maps
- 2 people who are prepared to carry the backpacks

Then you get your group and the chef can't cook, and burn everything, the guy who were supposed to be the map reader get you lost - and the backpackers dropped the backpacks halfway into the woods because they were too heavy.

Now you sit in the woods with 4 strangers, burned food, no backpacks and you're lost in the woods.

"But they're strangers, that's what you can expect"

No what was needed was 1 chef, 1 map reader and 2 backpackers.. I got 0/4

Is that fair? No it isn't. So please don't burn my food.

Oznog666

zvavi wrote: »

Twyst wrote: »

You enter a dungeon queue with random strangers. You have no idea what gear they have, skills they have chosen etc.

you can see all those usually...

Usually, yes. But if you meet my Erik Stamplar you will just see his beautiful tatoos although he is having arms of relequen, a monster set and deadly strike gear

seldomseenkd

The dungeon mechanics filter out who can and cannot complete the dungeon.

StevieKingslayer

seldomseenkd wrote: »

The dungeon finder entitles you to be matched with a random group. It does not entitle you to complete the dungeon.

You're right, it doesn't entitle you to complete it. What it does entitle you to is a CHANCE to complete it, so if people just queue as the correct roles, that shouldn't be an issue.

The issue here isn't being BAD at their roles, the issue is people aren't even trying, and honestly Im tired of it. I see low cp new entering players trying harder than long time players and this is just ridiculous. I don't have some eloquent, perfect solution, no one does, but the fact is if you queue as your role and are -trying- to complete that role, you have nothing to worry about.

There are heal checks and dps checks in this game, even tank checks. I have spent hours in dungeons teaching newer people who just had no idea what was happening, and after some tries we completed it and they learnt alot. It's players that REFUSE to try that are the problem here - Not the system itself.

zvavi

Oznog666 wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

Twyst wrote: »

You enter a dungeon queue with random strangers. You have no idea what gear they have, skills they have chosen etc.

you can see all those usually...

Usually, yes. But if you meet my Erik Stamplar you will just see his beautiful tatoos although he is having arms of relequen, a monster set and deadly strike gear

Rele got animation and debuff, so does the monster set. Out of the 3 sets the only one I wouldn't see is deadly.

seldomseenkd

StevieKingslayer wrote: »

You're right, it doesn't entitle you to complete it. What it does entitle you to is a CHANCE to complete it...

Who says?

StevieKingslayer

seldomseenkd wrote: »

StevieKingslayer wrote: »

You're right, it doesn't entitle you to complete it. What it does entitle you to is a CHANCE to complete it...

Who says?

The fact that it puts you in the dungeon with a group - That is the chance to complete it right there.

I never stated it guaranteed you completion. That's legitimately your chance to complete it right there, I don't understand what's so hard to comprehend about that.

seldomseenkd

StevieKingslayer wrote: »

seldomseenkd wrote: »

StevieKingslayer wrote: »

You're right, it doesn't entitle you to complete it. What it does entitle you to is a CHANCE to complete it...

Who says?

The fact that it puts you in the dungeon with a group - That is the chance to complete it right there.

It gives you the chance to complete it. It doesn't ENTITLE you a chance to complete it though, which was your original claim.

StevieKingslayer

seldomseenkd wrote: »

StevieKingslayer wrote: »

seldomseenkd wrote: »

StevieKingslayer wrote: »

You're right, it doesn't entitle you to complete it. What it does entitle you to is a CHANCE to complete it...

Who says?

The fact that it puts you in the dungeon with a group - That is the chance to complete it right there.

It gives you the chance to complete it. It doesn't ENTITLE you complete it though., which was your original claim.

Please quote EXACTLY where I said that.

seldomseenkd

Mistake. Corrected my post.

StevieKingslayer

Lmao nice edit there.

The fact is; Your argument is baseless. WHY are people NEEDING to queue as fake roles?

Danikat

StevieKingslayer wrote: »

If I sign up for an LFG as a tank, I expect the DPS to do DPS and the healer to do healing.

...Thats the legitimately the point for the roles. Its not entitlement for me to expect for people to queue for their roles. Idc if they are crap at it, I care if they are actually attempting their role. I'd rather bash my head against the spindleclutch 2 dps wall with low dps than deal with a healer that thought he could dps. Or most recently, in our VMHK where the "healer" was a dps, ran ahead and pulled everything, getting one person locked out of the boss area and acting like a total rude entitled dork.

Dont queue for roles you're not even gonna attempt. Idc if you call me entitled tbh. It's not "queue as a random role", it's "Tank, Healer, 2 DPS."

Idc if a dps wants to off heal a bit too, go for your life, as long as you're contributing DPS. Otherwise get out.

Correction: You are entitled to expect that, because it's a reasonable assumption to make. In spite of how it's commonly used online these days 'entitled' is not a bad word, it just means what you should be able to expect.

For example if I do a days work I am entitled to be paid for it. Not because I'm a spoiled child who is used to being given money, but because that is the compensation we both agreed to when I accepted the job. It's a legitimate entitlement. LIkewise anyone is entitled to be treated in a civil manner by people around them, because that's basic human decency.

The problem is when someone thinks they're entitled to something which is out of proportion with other people's expectations. Like expecting a random dungeon run to go perfectly no matter what, or expecting that they can queue for any role with any build because they're just a stranger on the internet and no one should expect them to do the job they signed up for. Or both in one go, which happens far too often.

Lord_Hev

Twyst wrote: »

So let me make this clear - LFG does not entitle you to a group with people that match your expectations.

Let me make this clear since apparently the game itself doesn't? In order to que for a dungeon, it is mandatory to select a role. If you are in group, you cannot que as a group if two or more people are heal role, or tank role, or if three people are dps role. The que system only accepts one tank, one healer, two dps. No ifs or buts. Only in a premade group are you not entitled to the roles because it is through group consent for all four to agree to whatever random roles they want to meme around with.


By the system Zos introduced, everyone in the group finder is entitled to the correct roles.

Sephyr

StevieKingslayer wrote: »

Lmao nice edit there.

The fact is; Your argument is baseless. WHY are people NEEDING to queue as fake roles?

Because people who queue for fake roles either can't complete the content otherwise, or just don't care that they're killing the group finder. Both, even. It's why I've stopped using the group finder all together, because people simply cannot be trusted to do the bare minimum of the roles they queue for.

StevieKingslayer

Danikat wrote: »

StevieKingslayer wrote: »

If I sign up for an LFG as a tank, I expect the DPS to do DPS and the healer to do healing.

...Thats the legitimately the point for the roles. Its not entitlement for me to expect for people to queue for their roles. Idc if they are crap at it, I care if they are actually attempting their role. I'd rather bash my head against the spindleclutch 2 dps wall with low dps than deal with a healer that thought he could dps. Or most recently, in our VMHK where the "healer" was a dps, ran ahead and pulled everything, getting one person locked out of the boss area and acting like a total rude entitled dork.

Dont queue for roles you're not even gonna attempt. Idc if you call me entitled tbh. It's not "queue as a random role", it's "Tank, Healer, 2 DPS."

Idc if a dps wants to off heal a bit too, go for your life, as long as you're contributing DPS. Otherwise get out.

Correction: You are entitled to expect that, because it's a reasonable assumption to make. In spite of how it's commonly used online these days 'entitled' is not a bad word, it just means what you should be able to expect.

For example if I do a days work I am entitled to be paid for it. Not because I'm a spoiled child who is used to being given money, but because that is the compensation we both agreed to when I accepted the job. It's a legitimate entitlement. LIkewise anyone is entitled to be treated in a civil manner by people around them, because that's basic human decency.

The problem is when someone thinks they're entitled to something which is out of proportion with other people's expectations. Like expecting a random dungeon run to go perfectly no matter what, or expecting that they can queue for any role with any build because they're just a stranger on the internet and no one should expect them to do the job they signed up for. Or both in one go, which happens far too often.

I don't go into any dungeon expecting to complete it unless I am with my group.
A random dungeon, I usually expect -not- to complete it, all I expect is people to sign up as their roles and try their best. I dislike the idea that belief in that screams 'entitlement'. I legitimately don't care if I dont finish a dungeon if everyone tried their hardest as their role. This idea that we are all out here flipping tables in nonsense - What is entitlement is these people thinking they are queue as something their not and then get mad when they get called out on it.

RoninMB

What does need to stop is people being so selfish that they ruin the game for everyone else. If you want to go into a dungeon as a fake tank or healer then form YOUR own group. It shouldn't be the other way around.

spartaxoxo

It's more like you put out a job request for some temporary workers and they agree they can do the job. You expect they can agree to do the job they signed up for.

We aren't sending out random invites to 4 people at a dolmen and then expecting a cohesive group.

The entire purpose of the group finder is to match you with people who can do a certain role. There is NO point to group finder or even having the ability to queue for a role at all, if there is no basic expectation that people can do the role they signed up for the barest minimum required of the dungeon.

This means a healer can heal the group. A tank will taunt the boss. And a dps will get the group past the dps checks.

If you cannot do those things, you are a fake because you signed up for a job that you can't or won't do.

seldomseenkd

StevieKingslayer wrote: »

Lmao nice edit there.

The fact is; Your argument is baseless. WHY are people NEEDING to queue as fake roles?

I didn't say anything about people queuing as fake roles.

I also didn't make an argument. I'm simply rejecting yours because you haven't explained how the group finder intrinsically entitles you to a chance of completing the dungeon. Entitled means "gives you the right" not "gives you the chance".

Edit: Inserted quote.

StevieKingslayer

seldomseenkd wrote: »

I didn't say anything about people queuing as fake roles.

I also didn't make an argument. I'm simply rejecting yours because you haven't explained how the group finder intrinsically entitles you to a chance of completing the dungeon. Entitled means "gives you the right" not "gives you the chance".

That is the -entire- point of the group finder or it wouldn't exist to serve that purpose to put those roles together, in that set up, for those dungeons. The same reason there is no TRIALS group finder, because you can have hybrid dps and support builds in there and thus a finder wouldnt work for them, In dungeons - Not so, you need somewhat balance.

LordHev's comment above explains it perfectly.

I never stated that any had the right to anything other than the right to attempt to complete the dungeon - That is what the dungeon finder is for. Explain to me what you think the dungeon finder is for, if not for the chance to complete a dungeon? XD

Kredo

This problem didn't even exist when people simply grouped for dungeons & pledges in the zone chats of the capital cities

Septimus_Magna

The difference is that as decent DD you can easily carry a group in most content, as long as the tank occasionally taunts and the healer occasionally heals.

As a tank its a different story because your damage output is incredibly low, Ive literally seen fights where my blockade and taunts would deal 20% of the group dps. In that case at least 2 other players are doing something completely wrong.

Like most players I dont expect trail dummy perfect rotations of 90k+ but DDs should at least get 25k dps once they're CP160 or higher. Its literally just blockade, orbs and weaving a spammable skill that you need for those numbers with purple crafted gear for example.

StevieKingslayer

Kredo wrote: »

This problem didn't even exist when people simply grouped for dungeons & pledges in the zone chats of the capital cities

Yeah, Because thats when people actually said "Tank LF x" and they actually were a tank. Its the people here that are the issue. People generally don't bull**** their abilities in zone chats because someone in the group goes back and complains to the whole zone chat, so people just never did it. It holds a certain amount of accountability. Thats why Craglorn works so well imo. People cant be trusted to be/or try to be, what their claiming unless a whole bloody zone see's it.

Lord_Hev

Kredo wrote: »

This problem didn't even exist when people simply grouped for dungeons & pledges in the zone chats of the capital cities

The root of the problem is random normal ques giving same reward as random veteran. Thus, there creates a category of people that wish to speed through it and do not care about the experience of others. When you make something time-locked but also easy, it creates this kind of problem. If they nerfed random normal daily geode to a more appropriate 3 - 5 crystals, that alone would lessen the fake role issue. People that need all these crystals to keep up with their "end game trial" meta are more then capable of participating in random veteran ques.

And it's two-fold, you re-increase the amount of capable end-game players in the veteran que, you also invite more tanks and healers to que as well knowing that they are more likely to get capable dps.


Just putting it bluntly, no one learns anything in a normal dungeon. I would much rather have someone bad at their role but eager to learn in a veteran dungeon. Because that person has initiative. Even with sub-dps, that initiative and team cohesion can get the job done for non-hm completion. 10 times out of 10.

WildLight

Twyst wrote: »

You enter a dungeon queue with random strangers. You have no idea what gear they have, skills they have chosen etc.
This is no different from walking up to a stranger in the street, giving them a wad of cash and instructing them to build you a new house.

In both cases you have not done your due dilligence in interviewing them or performing background checks for their suitability to the role.
Now, you wouldn't do the latter in real life so why are you entitled to expect a better result with the former?

So let me make this clear - LFG does not entitle you to a group with people that match your expectations.

This is a rather terrible metaphor but sure, let's roll with it.

First of all, I don't expect strangers "build a house" for me, I'm prepared to and actually contributing into "building a house" alongside them.

Second, entering Dungeon Finder strangers basically confirm they at least know something about "house building".

I have no problem with people not knowing how to "build elaborate mansions" (as in not knowing more complex and punishing mechanics), I can teach those just fine as long as they are willing to listen and learn. But not knowing from which side you actually take the hammer in hand is a whole different story.

I should emphasize it's all in relation to veteran content.

ToxicOutrage

Dungeon finder is bad concept and should be removed all together. The worse dungeon finder experience the better for me.

daijyashinb16_ESO

My favourite one was recently this:

I queue for as a Healer for a Vet DLC Pledge. I get in instantly and me and this DPS both together see the blue portal to the final boss of the pledge. OK, we'll do it.

The Tank and other DPS both mention how bad the other DPS and Healer were, hoping we'll be better. They keep dying to this boss. Red Flags are in my mind already, but well, I can give it a couple of goes.

The Tank was actually a 2 Hand/DW Damage Dealer with no taunt slotted what so ever. We clear the boss (No HM) and I point this out to them. Remember, they were complaining about the lack of heals from the previous person. Maybe it was a build I didn't know?

"Oh, I've got Heavy Armour and Gaze of Sithis on, but don't need a taunt. Besides, sometimes you just don't get what you want."

I point out that they complained about their previous healer. They rage up a storm and then just leave.

With your analogy, four people originally signed up to build a house. One person chose not to build the house letting the others do all the work. Infact, the one person not doing the work properly was blaming and complaining about two others who were at least attempting to do the work.

The House was built, but at the expense that it took FIVE other people to pick up the slack and work of ONE person. The guy also clearly fake tank role on purpose, had excuses ready and wanted to blame everyone else for all the trouble. My Job as a Healer became exponentially harder because we had no real tank.

I wish I could say this was an isolated incident. It is not. But it's actually pushing me away from being a healer when even in Vet DLC Dungeons, I'm actually seeing this plague of Fake Tanks.

A Tank who is learning to tank a DLC dungeon for the first time? I can live with that.

seldomseenkd

StevieKingslayer wrote: »

seldomseenkd wrote: »

I didn't say anything about people queuing as fake roles.

I also didn't make an argument. I'm simply rejecting yours because you haven't explained how the group finder intrinsically entitles you to a chance of completing the dungeon. Entitled means "gives you the right" not "gives you the chance".

That is the -entire- point of the group finder or it wouldn't exist to serve that purpose to put those roles together, in that set up, for those dungeons. The same reason there is no TRIALS group finder, because you can have hybrid dps and support builds in there and thus a finder wouldnt work for them, In dungeons - Not so, you need somewhat balance.

LordHev's comment above explains it perfectly.

I never stated that any had the right to anything other than the right to attempt to complete the dungeon - That is what the dungeon finder is for. Explain to me what you think the dungeon finder is for, if not for the chance to complete a dungeon? XD

This is called trying to shift the burden of proof.

Once again, I don't need to counter your argument. I can just reject it because you haven't explained the basis upon which the dungeon finder tool entitles you to a chance of completing the dungeon. A solid argument can be made for it giving you the chance to, but giving you the right to? Who or what says?

All you've done is privileged your definition of what you think the dungeon finder's function should be.