Harder Main Story Bosses

Olauron · November 2020

Iccotak wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

But I still think this is more about wanting upgraded drops than the difficulty of the boss. And that would not be fair to the rest of the playerbase.

It’s almost like I foresaw that very problem in previous threads and made the reward specifically cosmetic as to address that concern.

Well, there is one thing that you missed. Cosmetic rewards are as important or even more important than other rewards. For example, I almost don't care about sets from mechanical point of view. I look at sets from the thematically appropriate point of view, that is mostly cosmetic. I use Trinimac on my healer not because this is such a great set, but because he is Trinimac follower. I use Siroria on my templar not because I do a lot of content where I stand still and get a lot of positive effects from the set. No, I use it in content, where this set has about 40% effectiveness, but it is thematically appropriate for this character. I don't care about False God, because there is no character that has appropriate backstory for such set.

There are dragon statues - cosmetic rewards - that are locked behind veteran trial content. Since they are inaccessible for me, I haven't bought the Jode's Embrace house (I have bought Dawnshadow for gold), I didn't spent a lot of hours in game (as Dawnshadow is less and faster to decorate), I haven't bought the big Kaal statue from the store, as it would be appropriate in Jode's Embrace, but useless in Dawnshadow. That is the result of locked cosmetics.

There is also accessible cosmetics like Meridia skin. I created a character specifically for this skin, I spent a lot of hours playing this character, I've bought him house and a number of furnishing packs from the store, as well as motifs, personality, costumes, mounts and pets. That is the result of accessible cosmetics.

As you can see, locking cosmetic rewards behind some content may be much more important than locking some non-cosmetic rewards, especially from the store activity point of view.

Thechuckage · November 2020

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Thechuckage wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Seminolegirl1992 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

Because your present argument is from the concern of being able to obtain cosmetics in the game.
When there are already plenty of cosmetics gated behind veteran achievements.

That's the problem.

You are talking taking content from people who have only a little content and giving it to people who already have a lot. It's like if poor people were being asked to donate money to make Kylie Jenner a billionaire because being a multi-millionaire isn't enough.

The new player can only complete and get all the associated achievements from quests and delves. Every other system caters to established players instead. Those established players don't need to take over introductory content meant for newer players to feel rewarded and accomplished too. And yes, many of them do care about cosmetics and achievements.

Seminolegirl1992 wrote: »

Like this apparently super strong boss actually had something to brag about. Now we know not everyone wants this, but leaving it as an option vastly improves a LOT of peoples' experience in the game.

That's fine. But no exclusives rewards for it should be introduced. You do not need a fancy cosmetic that some new player couldn't get because they didn't really complete the quest missions beating it on normal.

They saved the world, they get the prize. Same as you. I would be supportive of boss difficulty scaling automatically based on your stats, or some kind of challenge banner designed to be changed for role play.

My objection is not to the increased difficulty for immersion, it's to tying exclusive rewards to those missions and gate keeping new players out of it.

Completing things on a harder difficulty should earn exclusive achievements at the very least. Dyes, titles, skins should be earned on harder content, but I'd be so danged happy if they offered an optional increased difficulty that I'd gladly take a compromise.

I guess an achievement that wasn't tied to any reward would be an alright compromise. I just know so many casual players that have so much trouble with stuff being out of their reach because it's for the elite. One of the reasons they keep coming back anyway is they love the quests and that this is something they can do and feel accomplished. I wouldn't want that taken away from them. I don't think it's good for the game's longevity to only cater to established players for one thing, but also because I want them to enjoy the game too.

Plus as someone who does Vet content, there is genuinely never nothing to do. Sometimes I get overwhelmed honestly and go enjoy the easier content because it's easier. Knocking out some simple quest achievement can be a nice break when you and your raid group leader are fighting because you're stuck on a boss in a dlc trial prog

For me it's a matter of just wanting to relax, for others I know it's a matter of can or cannot rather than desire. They cannot do vet content, period.

Taking your reasoning out to the logical conclusion - Questing should be a walking simulator. Once you reach the appropriate NPC, you work thru the dialogue options. Friendly NPCs take care of all combat necessary for the story.
No one can possibly be excluded, everyone gets to see the story. Everyone gets the rewards.

No. That's taking it out to an absurd conclusion, to change the logic from what it is. Everyone already can beat the normal quests, so they don't have to be any easier than they already are. They just need to remain the same.

Sylvermynx posted about having difficulty clearing a quest due to extreme latency. Im sure that isnt an isolated incident. If your idea is to maximize the number of people who can complete content then it is not an absurd conclusion as it literally makes it a no-fail task and the max number of people can clear it.

That said, I find your entire premise absurd. For some reason this small slice of the games achievements must remain sacrosanct. There has been no reason given beyond "some people might quit" Well the opposite is also true. Players have quit because it is just too dang easy. Tacking an optional difficulty onto the side takes away nothing from anyone. It simply adds to the greater whole.

GenjiraX · November 2020

Just unequip all armour and weapons.

Iccotak · November 2020

GenjiraX wrote: »

Just unequip all armour and weapons.

Someone addressed that already

Vayln_Ninetails wrote: »

Sendirra wrote: »

You can always remove the CP from your character (aka not use the points you earned). That should increase the overall difficulty a bit...

As OP mentioned in the post, suggestions regarding "why not do x y z to make it harder" defeats the entire purpose for asking for an optional hard mode and doesn't help anything. As if I have to gimp myself to make the BIG BAD EVIL guy of the entire year hard, then doesn't that mean there is a design flaw somewhere? Imagine if Lich King from WoW's wrath of the lich king was as easy as a story boss in ESO.

With that logic, why should vet dungeons exist? Or vet arenas? Just take off your gear or not level champ points duh.

To clarify im not directing this all at you; this is towards anyone who thinks "in order to make **IMPORTANT** story bosses hard just nerf yourself duhhhhh" is a valid argument. It isn't. Want to know why bosses exist in MMOs and what makes them memorable? Difficulty. Having to learn mechanics that tie in with their character/story, all of that. The story too! But a story can crumble under a lackluster boss fight. Where as a boss fight can't really crumble under a crappy story. Because even if the story is bad, the boss fight was fun/cool and thus memorable.

Iccotak · November 2020

Olauron wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

But I still think this is more about wanting upgraded drops than the difficulty of the boss. And that would not be fair to the rest of the playerbase.

It’s almost like I foresaw that very problem in previous threads and made the reward specifically cosmetic as to address that concern.

Well, there is one thing that you missed. Cosmetic rewards are as important or even more important than other rewards. For example, I almost don't care about sets from mechanical point of view. I look at sets from the thematically appropriate point of view, that is mostly cosmetic. I use Trinimac on my healer not because this is such a great set, but because he is Trinimac follower. I use Siroria on my templar not because I do a lot of content where I stand still and get a lot of positive effects from the set. No, I use it in content, where this set has about 40% effectiveness, but it is thematically appropriate for this character. I don't care about False God, because there is no character that has appropriate backstory for such set.

There are dragon statues - cosmetic rewards - that are locked behind veteran trial content. Since they are inaccessible for me, I haven't bought the Jode's Embrace house (I have bought Dawnshadow for gold), I didn't spent a lot of hours in game (as Dawnshadow is less and faster to decorate), I haven't bought the big Kaal statue from the store, as it would be appropriate in Jode's Embrace, but useless in Dawnshadow. That is the result of locked cosmetics.

There is also accessible cosmetics like Meridia skin. I created a character specifically for this skin, I spent a lot of hours playing this character, I've bought him house and a number of furnishing packs from the store, as well as motifs, personality, costumes, mounts and pets. That is the result of accessible cosmetics.

As you can see, locking cosmetic rewards behind some content may be much more important than locking some non-cosmetic rewards, especially from the store activity point of view.

TL;DR summary

I don’t like how the veteran achievement system in the game - “Players can obtain certain cosmetic items from completing achievements in Higher Difficulty settings”
And I don’t want the proposal to use basically the same system as other tiered content does because I don’t want to have to participate in veteran content and would prefer they just give it me rather than using the incentive to earn the item myself.

So really I’m arguing against that pre-existing system, which is an entirely separate conversation

JessPushToPlay · November 2020

I am ON BOARD with this:

1st story mode = YES PLEASE! Drives absolutely CRAZY when I'm doing a dungeon on my own with 3 other players I don't know & 75% of the time they speed run through it & I can't stop to actually learn what the dungeon is about!

I was actually avoiding doing dungeons just for this reason alone- now I'm in a guild but scheduling doesn't always work out & not everyone is always up for a story run.

2nd harder bosses- when you're a lower level these bosses are a bit harder but once you get over so many levels (35+ I guess) they're SO EASY. A way to make them more difficult would make it more rewarding to actually get to the boss & fight them. Right now... it's a bit of a let down.

GREAT IDEAS!

SilverBride · November 2020

You level your character, farm gear, do vet dungeons and trials, and then are upset that the normal overland quest "boss" (they are really just the main antagonist) isn't as hard as a dungeon boss.

What do most players get so strong for? Not to do overland content. They do it so they can do endgame content... vet dungeons and trials.

It isn't reasonable to expect them to turn every single aspect of the game into endgame content. Especially if you get special rewards for it, cosmetic or otherwise.

Thechuckage · November 2020

SilverBride wrote: »

You level your character, farm gear, do vet dungeons and trials, and then are upset that the normal overland quest "boss" (they are really just the main antagonist) isn't as hard as a dungeon boss.

What do most players get so strong for? Not to do overland content. They do it so they can do endgame content... vet dungeons and trials.

It isn't reasonable to expect them to turn every single aspect of the game into endgame content. Especially if you get special rewards for it, cosmetic or otherwise.

Who has asked for "them to turn every single aspect of the game into endgame content"? We have asked for a way to boost certain bosses. Optional. Means you don't have to do it.

Sometimes it can be fun to be overpowered as hell, but it tends to lose the charm in about 5 mins of gameplay.

SilverBride · November 2020

Thechuckage wrote: »

Who has asked for "them to turn every single aspect of the game into endgame content"?

Overland content is the base game, and the only thing left that isn't adapted for endgame, besides housing and crafting. Are those going to be next? Are you going to ask that there be "optional" designs for vets to craft special gear or furnishings? They would be optional, right? So why should the average player be upset that they are excluded?

Thechuckage wrote: »

Sometimes it can be fun to be overpowered as hell, but it tends to lose the charm in about 5 mins of gameplay.

Then focus on the endgame content you developed your character for instead of content you now overpower.

Olauron · November 2020

Iccotak wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

But I still think this is more about wanting upgraded drops than the difficulty of the boss. And that would not be fair to the rest of the playerbase.

It’s almost like I foresaw that very problem in previous threads and made the reward specifically cosmetic as to address that concern.

Well, there is one thing that you missed. Cosmetic rewards are as important or even more important than other rewards. For example, I almost don't care about sets from mechanical point of view. I look at sets from the thematically appropriate point of view, that is mostly cosmetic. I use Trinimac on my healer not because this is such a great set, but because he is Trinimac follower. I use Siroria on my templar not because I do a lot of content where I stand still and get a lot of positive effects from the set. No, I use it in content, where this set has about 40% effectiveness, but it is thematically appropriate for this character. I don't care about False God, because there is no character that has appropriate backstory for such set.

There are dragon statues - cosmetic rewards - that are locked behind veteran trial content. Since they are inaccessible for me, I haven't bought the Jode's Embrace house (I have bought Dawnshadow for gold), I didn't spent a lot of hours in game (as Dawnshadow is less and faster to decorate), I haven't bought the big Kaal statue from the store, as it would be appropriate in Jode's Embrace, but useless in Dawnshadow. That is the result of locked cosmetics.

There is also accessible cosmetics like Meridia skin. I created a character specifically for this skin, I spent a lot of hours playing this character, I've bought him house and a number of furnishing packs from the store, as well as motifs, personality, costumes, mounts and pets. That is the result of accessible cosmetics.

As you can see, locking cosmetic rewards behind some content may be much more important than locking some non-cosmetic rewards, especially from the store activity point of view.

TL;DR summary

I don’t like how the veteran achievement system in the game - “Players can obtain certain cosmetic items from completing achievements in Higher Difficulty settings”
And I don’t want the proposal to use basically the same system as other tiered content does because I don’t want to have to participate in veteran content and would prefer they just give it me rather than using the incentive to earn the item myself.

So really I’m arguing against that pre-existing system, which is an entirely separate conversation

Don't try to put words into my mouth. There was no pre-existing system of locked furnishings behind veteran trials (trophies are not furnishings that are bought from vendor) before Elsweyr. There is no pre-existing system of veteran story content now. There were no different achievements and rewards for content in veteran and regular zones, when those were the case before One Tamriel.

What I am saying is making rewards cosmetic doesn't address any concern, while you pretend it does.

Linaleah · November 2020

so in a nutshell. more options for more people while still leaving current modes intact for those of us for whom current difficulty works just fine? aka the way it works in SWTOR?

sure, sounds good.

SilverBride · November 2020

Linaleah wrote: »

more options for more people while still leaving current modes intact for those of us for whom current difficulty works just fine? aka the way it works in SWTOR?

If you are going to bring other games into it, then take a look at WoW. Their zones have level ranges. The same with their dungeons and raids, even the top tiers of these. So an endgame player can literally go into a top tier raid they now out level, pull the entire place and with one spell kill every mob at once. The same for overland zones. You can literally go in naked and just slap mobs and they drop. Yet their players don't expect them to make harder content for everything. They just do the content they have leveled and geared for.

Iccotak · November 2020

SilverBride wrote: »

You level your character, farm gear, do vet dungeons and trials, and then are upset that the normal overland quest "boss" (they are really just the main antagonist) isn't as hard as a dungeon boss.

What do most players get so strong for? Not to do overland content. They do it so they can do endgame content... vet dungeons and trials.

It isn't reasonable to expect them to turn every single aspect of the game into endgame content. Especially if you get special rewards for it, cosmetic or otherwise.

No We are annoyed that a boss they spent a year hyping up as the ultimate big bad was not really much of a threat - it kills our immersion in the story.
It makes no sense to write a narrative for long term players but make the bosses easy as pie and it also seems like a waste of potential content wise.

Iccotak · November 2020

SilverBride wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

more options for more people while still leaving current modes intact for those of us for whom current difficulty works just fine? aka the way it works in SWTOR?

If you are going to bring other games into it, then take a look at WoW. Their zones have level ranges. The same with their dungeons and raids, even the top tiers of these. So an endgame player can literally go into a top tier raid they now out level, pull the entire place and with one spell kill every mob at once. The same for overland zones. You can literally go in naked and just slap mobs and they drop. Yet their players don't expect them to make harder content for everything. They just do the content they have leveled and geared for.

If you're going to bring up WoW - they have Raids dedicated to the main antagonists of their expansions. They actually make their story bosses hard.
And we are not saying to make harder content for everything - I literally said in the OP just for the main story bosses.

SilverBride · November 2020

Iccotak wrote: »

If you're going to bring up WoW - they have Raids dedicated to the main antagonists of their expansions. They actually make their story bosses hard.
And we are not saying to make harder content for everything - I literally said in the OP just for the main story bosses.

Their main antagonist is a raid boss. You have to gear up and enter a raid to fight them. That is very different from the overland storyline quests in ESO, where the main antagonist is not part of a dungeon or trial. They are overland content and should remain as such, difficulty level and all.

Iccotak · November 2020

Olauron wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

But I still think this is more about wanting upgraded drops than the difficulty of the boss. And that would not be fair to the rest of the playerbase.

It’s almost like I foresaw that very problem in previous threads and made the reward specifically cosmetic as to address that concern.

Well, there is one thing that you missed. Cosmetic rewards are as important or even more important than other rewards. For example, I almost don't care about sets from mechanical point of view. I look at sets from the thematically appropriate point of view, that is mostly cosmetic. I use Trinimac on my healer not because this is such a great set, but because he is Trinimac follower. I use Siroria on my templar not because I do a lot of content where I stand still and get a lot of positive effects from the set. No, I use it in content, where this set has about 40% effectiveness, but it is thematically appropriate for this character. I don't care about False God, because there is no character that has appropriate backstory for such set.

There are dragon statues - cosmetic rewards - that are locked behind veteran trial content. Since they are inaccessible for me, I haven't bought the Jode's Embrace house (I have bought Dawnshadow for gold), I didn't spent a lot of hours in game (as Dawnshadow is less and faster to decorate), I haven't bought the big Kaal statue from the store, as it would be appropriate in Jode's Embrace, but useless in Dawnshadow. That is the result of locked cosmetics.

There is also accessible cosmetics like Meridia skin. I created a character specifically for this skin, I spent a lot of hours playing this character, I've bought him house and a number of furnishing packs from the store, as well as motifs, personality, costumes, mounts and pets. That is the result of accessible cosmetics.

As you can see, locking cosmetic rewards behind some content may be much more important than locking some non-cosmetic rewards, especially from the store activity point of view.

TL;DR summary

I don’t like how the veteran achievement system in the game - “Players can obtain certain cosmetic items from completing achievements in Higher Difficulty settings”
And I don’t want the proposal to use basically the same system as other tiered content does because I don’t want to have to participate in veteran content and would prefer they just give it me rather than using the incentive to earn the item myself.

So really I’m arguing against that pre-existing system, which is an entirely separate conversation

Don't try to put words into my mouth. There was no pre-existing system of locked furnishings behind veteran trials (trophies are not furnishings that are bought from vendor) before Elsweyr. There is no pre-existing system of veteran story content now. There were no different achievements and rewards for content in veteran and regular zones, when those were the case before One Tamriel.

What I am saying is making rewards cosmetic doesn't address any concern, while you pretend it does.

Furnishing is a cosmetic item.
Going all the way back to "Shadows of the Hist" DLC there were cosmetic items linked behind achievements in veteran mode. Veteran Mode offering unique obtainable cosmetics has always been a thing. Whether or not it is furnishing is semantics, it is still cosmetic.

The proposal uses the same Cosmetic Reward system as the rest of the tiered content in the game.
I proposed a "Veteran Mode" for a story boss. So I based the design on already existing Veteran content.
It seems to me that your problem has less to do with the idea in the OP and more with just how the system is designed in the game right now.
Some saying it is catering to "elites", when it is just providing a cool cosmetic to those who earn it.
Their issue less to do with the story boss and more to do with the fact they don't want to give or share anything with those who regularly do endgame content - saying stuff like

Not everything needs a dye or a title that casuals cannot get.

Iccotak · November 2020

SilverBride wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

If you're going to bring up WoW - they have Raids dedicated to the main antagonists of their expansions. They actually make their story bosses hard.
And we are not saying to make harder content for everything - I literally said in the OP just for the main story bosses.

Their main antagonist is a raid boss. You have to gear up and enter a raid to fight them. That is very different from the overland storyline quests in ESO, where the main antagonist is not part of a dungeon or trial. They are overland content and should remain as such, difficulty level and all.

and it still would be - there would just be an optional difficulty that wouldn't affect you at all.
There would be no obligation for you to do the veteran instance. Its achievements would be in a separate section from "Quests".
you can still complete a zone without touching the trial or "lair"

EDIT: Everybody gets what they want - I am flabbergasted that this is even an issue when it really is not - beyond you just claiming that this is your corner of the game

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe · November 2020

barney2525 wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

@hafgood
To address questions.
Only the boss encounter would become repeatable, not the entire quest line, mainly for the sake of allowing the player to adjust the difficulty between normal and veteran. (also what if a player did on Normal but wants to try it on Veteran) These encounters would be on the map as "Lairs" to distinguish themselves from Dungeons and Trials.

The reason I proposed cosmetic rewards is because the last time I made a similar proposal with higher tier gear rewards it divided people and it became entirely about the reward. So I thought cosmetic reward was a good compromise seeing as how many MMOs (WoW in particular) have cosmetic rewards for endgame content including main story bosses.
The reason I propose any reward at all is because all in-game activities with difficulty options have a tier reward system, so I'm following that logic.

@barney2525
Bosses are not just easier because the player may be experienced. The bosses are specifically designed for the new player which is odd because the writing continues the narrative for longtime players - many of whom play endgame content.

Like I said in the OP; this is Not about a lack of difficult content, this is about how the gameplay experience affects the story and hyping up a main villain for a year only to have a mediocre, short lived fight is really anti-climatic and sours the story. It leaves us with a feeling of "That's it?" and to be quite honest I feel that it is a waste of resources to NOT at the very least have a difficulty option for the main boss of a story that a whole year was dedicated to.

Are you really trying to tell me, that very First time you ever completed the Main Quest, the final fight was ' too easy' for you?

It was a snooze fest my very first time... One of the most disappointing fights in all of video game history to me.

spartaxoxo · November 2020

Iccotak wrote: »

The only reason you have been getting so many replies is because you were fast to dismiss an optional difficulty mode .

No. The reason that I got so many replies is because people cannot comprehend that there are downsides to this idea. This would not be optional for people who want to complete ALL of the story related achievements and rewards. In this day and age there of internet discussion there are no good and downsides, only upsides and haters. Putting it under a tab called lairs doesn't address the criticism at all. Which is why you do things like pull a quote out of context to pretend I didn't read the whole thing.

And no, it is not silly that they would quit the game. They have a singular piece of content they can do under a system they do not like, and you want to take it away from them and put it under that system. Why should they stay if that's gonna be the case?

Iccotak · November 2020

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

The only reason you have been getting so many replies is because you were fast to dismiss an optional difficulty mode .

No. The reason that I got so many replies is because people cannot comprehend that there are downsides to this idea. This would not be optional for people who want to complete ALL of the story related achievements and rewards.

And no, it is not silly that they would quit the game. They have a singular piece of content they can do under a system they do not like, and you want to take it away from them and put it under that system. Why should they stay if that's gonna be the case?

I literally presented a solution to the very problem of the achievement log to you and you've blatantly ignored it several times.

spartaxoxo · November 2020

ke.sardenb14_ESO wrote: »

I don't understand, are experienced player just supposed to sit in craglon for yelling dungeons and trials groups. Lets forget about achievements or repeatable instances.I don't think it is a big thing to ask for better scaling in content, specifically when many of the year end bosses are single player instances anyway.

They do not want to forget the achievements and rewards because they are the point of the suggestion. Which is why they flipped out over the alternative idea of just having the story boss scale somehow when it's time to fight it to be fair to new and casual players

SilverBride · November 2020

Iccotak wrote: »

We are annoyed that a boss they spent a year hyping up as the ultimate big bad was not really much of a threat - it kills our immersion in the story.
It makes no sense to write a narrative for long term players but make the bosses easy as pie and it also seems like a waste of potential content wise.

I don't know of any "boss" that has been hyped up for a year, or any new questlines that take even a fraction of that time to complete. In fact, I don't even know who the storyline antagonist is going to be until I start doing the quests.

And doesn't the Reach have new dungeons and an arena that can be done in vet mode? Also, the two antagonists at the end of storyline were both very difficult for me, and I am a veteran player. But I didn't ask them to make an easier version, and I wouldn't, because it's my responsibility to develop my character for how I want to play, not the other way around.

The bottom line is that you chose to level and gear your character for endgame content. Now, because you are bored, you think the entire game should adapt to your choices. No.

Iccotak · November 2020

spartaxoxo wrote: »

ke.sardenb14_ESO wrote: »

I don't understand, are experienced player just supposed to sit in craglon for yelling dungeons and trials groups. Lets forget about achievements or repeatable instances.I don't think it is a big thing to ask for better scaling in content, specifically when many of the year end bosses are single player instances anyway.

They do not want to forget the achievements and rewards because they are the point of the suggestion. Which is why they flipped out over the alternative idea of just having the story boss scale somehow when it's time to fight it to be fair to new and casual players

No, I literally based the system on existing veteran achievement systems. And as I said in the OP in order for the idea to work Veteran instance would require a review of mechanics - because stats are not the issue - it's the mechanics that make or break a good boss fight. So the veteran instance would have to use different mechanics in comparison to normal.

You have made it about the Veteran Achievements because you have a focused issue with "Elites" earning stuff that "casuals" for some reason cannot.
Like you're fine with the boss fight idea so long as the Veteran instance doesn't in any way provide obtainable cosmetics even though that's how the rest of the game already works.
You made it about reward and have this weird obsession with "elites" and "casuals"

spartaxoxo · November 2020

Iccotak wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

You level your character, farm gear, do vet dungeons and trials, and then are upset that the normal overland quest "boss" (they are really just the main antagonist) isn't as hard as a dungeon boss.

What do most players get so strong for? Not to do overland content. They do it so they can do endgame content... vet dungeons and trials.

It isn't reasonable to expect them to turn every single aspect of the game into endgame content. Especially if you get special rewards for it, cosmetic or otherwise.

No We are annoyed that a boss they spent a year hyping up as the ultimate big bad was not really much of a threat - it kills our immersion in the story..

And yet you reject an idea that would actually make him a threat within the story, so that you can turn into yet more vet content that newbies can't do. Even going so far as to pretend to separate it from the story entirely.

Themed cosmetics is the real point.

Ravensilver · November 2020

Iccotak wrote: »

If you're going to bring up WoW - they have Raids dedicated to the main antagonists of their expansions. They actually make their story bosses hard.
And we are not saying to make harder content for everything - I literally said in the OP just for the main story bosses.

Which, in the end, means that players that have neither the guild, nor the gear, nor the time for that commitment, will not have a chance to see the end of the story until two expansions later, when they've leveled so far out of the old stuff that they can solo it.

I play WoW, alternating with ESO. I've tried to get into the LFRs for months now. So that I could *finish* all those 'story' bosses. I sit and wait. And wait. And two hours later we still don't have an LFR complete and I fall out of the queue. Rinse and repeat.
There is raid 'story' content that my main *still* hasn't seen, because there is never an LFR for it.

Is this what you want?

I don't.

I am quite happy with the fact that I *can* finish main stories here, and can do it with a reasonable amount of effort and time.

I would advocate for an *optional* hard mode for those who want it otherwise. But for players like me, the current state of affairs is just fine.

And by the way, the achievements and rewards for normal/vet/hardmode etc. *is* different in ESO. Even though I've done Sunspire (normal), I don't have the mount. I never will. Because doing that content just isn't in my stars. And I'm fine with that... (well... would *still* like to have the mount... ^^;; ).

Iccotak · November 2020

Ravensilver wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

If you're going to bring up WoW - they have Raids dedicated to the main antagonists of their expansions. They actually make their story bosses hard.
And we are not saying to make harder content for everything - I literally said in the OP just for the main story bosses.

Which, in the end, means that players that have neither the guild, nor the gear, nor the time for that commitment, will not have a chance to see the end of the story until two expansions later, when they've leveled so far out of the old stuff that they can solo it.

I play WoW, alternating with ESO. I've tried to get into the LFRs for months now. So that I could *finish* all those 'story' bosses. I sit and wait. And wait. And two hours later we still don't have an LFR complete and I fall out of the queue. Rinse and repeat.
There is raid 'story' content that my main *still* hasn't seen, because there is never an LFR for it.

Is this what you want?

I don't.

I am quite happy with the fact that I *can* finish main stories here, and can do it with a reasonable amount of effort and time.

I would advocate for an *optional* hard mode for those who want it otherwise. But for players like me, the current state of affairs is just fine.

And by the way, the achievements and rewards for normal/vet/hardmote etc. *is* different in ESO. Even though I've done Sunspire (normal), I don't have the mount. I never will. Because doing that content just isn't in my stars. And I'm fine with that... (well... would *still* like to have the mount... ^^;; ).

And you would still be able to do that under the proposal - nothing would be stopping you

spartaxoxo · November 2020

Iccotak wrote: »

.
Their issue less to do with the story boss and more to do with the fact they don't want to give or share anything with those who regularly do endgame content - saying stuff like

Not everything needs a dye or a title that casuals cannot get.

More like the other way around. Endgame players wanting to take the one piece of content that everyone gets all the goodies, and that includes endgame players, and make it exclusive to them. Endgame players already get all the stuff. It is there for the taking. Nothing prevents you but desire.

spartaxoxo · November 2020

Iccotak wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

The only reason you have been getting so many replies is because you were fast to dismiss an optional difficulty mode .

No. The reason that I got so many replies is because people cannot comprehend that there are downsides to this idea. This would not be optional for people who want to complete ALL of the story related achievements and rewards.

And no, it is not silly that they would quit the game. They have a singular piece of content they can do under a system they do not like, and you want to take it away from them and put it under that system. Why should they stay if that's gonna be the case?

I literally presented a solution to the very problem of the achievement log to you and you've blatantly ignored it several times.

It's not a real solution. Everyone will know that it's a story achievement being taken and it actually ruins things for endgame players having climatic boss fights too. Because now they still gotta do the "boring" boss fight in the middle of the story.

Which is supposedly the point and not the cosmetics.

Iccotak · November 2020

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

You level your character, farm gear, do vet dungeons and trials, and then are upset that the normal overland quest "boss" (they are really just the main antagonist) isn't as hard as a dungeon boss.

What do most players get so strong for? Not to do overland content. They do it so they can do endgame content... vet dungeons and trials.

It isn't reasonable to expect them to turn every single aspect of the game into endgame content. Especially if you get special rewards for it, cosmetic or otherwise.

No We are annoyed that a boss they spent a year hyping up as the ultimate big bad was not really much of a threat - it kills our immersion in the story..

And yet you reject an idea that would actually make him a threat within the story, so that you can turn into yet more vet content that newbies can't do. Even going so far as to pretend to separate it from the story entirely.

Themed cosmetics is the real point.

Because Scaling would not solve the issue. This has been pointed out several times.

Also a point of end game content is that it is something players aspire to do at another time. They still complete the story and if they feel like it they can come back at a later point for the veteran mode, adding replay value to the content.

I offered cosmetics as the compromise from obtainable gear (because that was the central issue last time because people criticized it not being fair)

Your view of "accessibility" goes to such lengths that it is honestly incompatible with how the game is already designed.

SilverBride · November 2020

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

barney2525 wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

@hafgood
To address questions.
Only the boss encounter would become repeatable, not the entire quest line, mainly for the sake of allowing the player to adjust the difficulty between normal and veteran. (also what if a player did on Normal but wants to try it on Veteran) These encounters would be on the map as "Lairs" to distinguish themselves from Dungeons and Trials.

The reason I proposed cosmetic rewards is because the last time I made a similar proposal with higher tier gear rewards it divided people and it became entirely about the reward. So I thought cosmetic reward was a good compromise seeing as how many MMOs (WoW in particular) have cosmetic rewards for endgame content including main story bosses.
The reason I propose any reward at all is because all in-game activities with difficulty options have a tier reward system, so I'm following that logic.

@barney2525
Bosses are not just easier because the player may be experienced. The bosses are specifically designed for the new player which is odd because the writing continues the narrative for longtime players - many of whom play endgame content.

Like I said in the OP; this is Not about a lack of difficult content, this is about how the gameplay experience affects the story and hyping up a main villain for a year only to have a mediocre, short lived fight is really anti-climatic and sours the story. It leaves us with a feeling of "That's it?" and to be quite honest I feel that it is a waste of resources to NOT at the very least have a difficulty option for the main boss of a story that a whole year was dedicated to.

Are you really trying to tell me, that very First time you ever completed the Main Quest, the final fight was ' too easy' for you?

It was a snooze fest my very first time... One of the most disappointing fights in all of video game history to me.

Then you didn't do it when the game was new, because it was far from easy back then.