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Should characters who queue as vet dps pass a dps check ala gran turismo licensing requirements?

  • NocturnalSonata
    NocturnalSonata
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    Yes, you must pass a dps/capability check.
    Dps check is a great idea imo. It signifies that there is actually a methodology behind doing damage rather than simply building ad-hoc and mashing a few buttons together. The dps check does not even need to be high, just high enough that means some thought has actually gone into doing dmg. A good guide would be take any base dungeon that has a dps check and average it out. We are talking bare min here, so nothing elite. I honestly fail to see why people have an issue with this. If people want to get hard carried they can always form their own group still, so whats the big deal with adding a soft gate?

    The only time i actually started to improve as a dps is when i realized how sub-par my dmg was - this leads to seeking knowledge/advice on how to improve.
  • LordSarevok
    LordSarevok
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    Yes, you must pass a dps/capability check.
    CrashTest wrote: »
    I'm down for a license test on every class. Tank bashing, positioning, gear, taunts etc. Healer out healing damage, positioning, buffs, ect. These are rare to me though. 95 out of 100 times the fail reasoning is *** poor dps.

    Not a bad idea. I used to play a game that had tests for all 3 roles before you could enter vet dungeons.

    For tank, it was survive an onslaught.

    For heals, it was heal an NPC who ran around and ate every attack and stood in all the fire (basically your average DPS pug).

    For DPS, it was a damage test with mechanics too to test your situational awareness. You had to deal damage while simultaneously avoiding fire and self healing when needed.

    The tests were challenging but fun.

    I'm down for this! Either way the player will learn and grow!
    Ei8htba11 wrote: »
    Content people paid for shouldn't be held hostage because of some kind of 'licence' to carry on into the dungeon.

    Sure it can be frustrating to take a long time in content because the group you ended up with isn't what you were expecting, but the Dungeon finder isn't the place for having expectations, premades are for that (especially if speed farming for an item). You go in knowing what YOUR strengths are, the rest is just the luck of the draw.

    Or, maybe we can have some sort of YOLO check on over eager DPS? Tanking, I've seen many overconfident DD's run off and get wrecked at the first pull because they thought they could burn through mechanics.

    But progression is in every game.. ever.

    You have to reach a certain strength or learn certain skills before you can proceed to the next level.
    In Mario, Sonic you name it there's mechanics in place you have to learn to get to the next level.
    In solo games you simply will not be able to proceed if you don't learn say a .. double jump. You'll be stuck.

    Difference here being ESO is "group content" some people are very lazy and want to be carried through these levels to proceed to content they simply, and quite frankly, aren't good enough to do on their own or with a group on their skill level.

    The only hostages are the ones these lazy people gets grouped with. These poor fellas are now forced to drag dead weight through a 45 minute to 2 hour dungeon and by the end of it they may have to abandon it because someone feel entitled to get the rewards without putting in the work and the hours.

    Well said.
  • ayu_fever
    ayu_fever
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    Yes, you must pass a dps/capability check.
    low dps is why i do not like to PUG
    Edited by ayu_fever on October 21, 2020 10:00PM
    PS4 NA

    all characters are members of the ebonheart pact master race
    BLOOD FOR THE PACT

    main character:
    Rebekah Straight-Fire, breton templar healer: THE FATEBRINGER (dungeons, trials, pvp)
    —MERIDIA’S LUSTRANT— 1100+CP; alliance rank 21 (major grade 1); Rebekah is the most devoted and loyal follower of the lady of infinite energies and the highest ascendant of meridia’s purified legion and was forged from meridia’s brilliant radiance of purity.

    other meta toons-
    Alexa Straight-Fire, breton warden healer: THE ALCHEMIST (dungeons, trials)
    Sasha Straight-Fire, nord dragonknight tank: THE UNBREAKABLE (dungeons, trials)
    Freyja Straight-Fire, nord warden tank: THE ICEBERG (dungeons, trials)
    Ororo Straight-Fire, dark elf magsorc: THE SHOCKWAVE (dungeons, trials)
    Michonne Straight-Fire, redguard stamDK: THE EVISCERATOR (dungeons, trials)

    just for fun toons-
    Rhea Straight-Fire, wood elf warden stam healer: THE RANGER
    Shiva Straight-Fire, high elf warden ice mage: THE CRYOMANCER
    Morgana Straight-Fire, dark elf necromancer solo play: THE DEATHSINGER
    Lucille Straight-Fire, dark elf nightblade solo play: THE VOIDWALKER
    Diana Straight-Fire, nord templar tank: THE CLERIC
    Falsetto Straight-Fire, orc stamsorc werewolf: THE THUNDERHOWL
  • novemberhhh
    novemberhhh
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    Yes, you must pass a dps/capability check.
    Low dps is why i almost never pug tank and actually never pug heal (i can't heal 1-shots when you stand in red while simultaneously doing 80%+ of the dps...). And looooong queues (1 hour or more at times) is why many will never pug dps; you could get a 90k dd, but they can (and usually do) form a premade and clear all 3 pledges with no-death, hardmode, and speedrun before that LFG queue finally pops. But i guess the letting the 5k dps in queue who wont be able to clear at all is worth breaking the entire LFG system... cant be harder than writs, which require writ certification, right?
    Edited by novemberhhh on October 21, 2020 10:22PM
    404
  • Silver_Strider
    Silver_Strider
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    Fank Tanks/Healers are just as much a problem as Fake DPS in this game and nothing will change that. You can cheese DPS tests and they don't account for mechanics that people just outright refuse to do due to incompetence so it wouldn't really help any. I mean, when I was actively playing ESO, I could hit 30k DPS in a dungeon vs the 50k I get on a test dummy because I'm not using the same skills for both. I always keep a selfheal/shield during a dungeon because you can't trust randoms to do their jobs properly or when crap hits the fan for whatever reason. A mandatory test isn't really going to change that, especially this late into the game's lifespan.
    Argonian forever
  • kathandira
    kathandira
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    No, you shouldn't pass a dps/capability check
    Brockahly wrote: »
    At the end of the day more dps = less mechanics you work through.

    If I were to propose a fix to the gap between the top DPS and the low DPS, I would just change the bosses to where you cannot skip mechanics. There are many creative ways to design boss fights that put up a wall when the dev wants to cut off DPS.

    But as it stands currently, what you say is very true. The more DPS, the less of the encounter you need to deal with.
    PS4-NA. Breton Templar Healer, Bosmer Stamplar, Breton Magplar, Orsimer StamDK, Dunmer MagDK, Khajiit StamNB, Dunmer MagNB, Argonian Warden Tank, Altmer Magsorc
  • RebornV3x
    RebornV3x
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    No, you shouldn't pass a dps/capability check
    It should not be required simply put dps will just stop using group finder.

    But a optional/repeatable quest like a mini game with good rewards put in a few acheivements a title or 2 would go along way.
    Xbox One - NA GT: RebornV3x
    I also play on PC from time to time but I just wanna be left alone on there so sorry.
  • MudcrabAttack
    MudcrabAttack
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    By all means they need to have a training session or repeatable daily quest that rewards the practice of hitting a target dummy.

    Maybe not even a quest, just something that comes in the mail for hitting a target dummy that day
    Edited by MudcrabAttack on October 22, 2020 5:58PM
  • EdmondDontes
    EdmondDontes
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    No, you shouldn't pass a dps/capability check
    Wyrd88 wrote: »
    The results of this poll is a bit sad tbh.
    Lol just scrolling through here you can tell whos doing the carrying, and who the carries are.

    ^
    Pretty much this.

    Ya, the people voting "No" are the ones that can carry others, and know no dps check is needed for easy content.
  • idk
    idk
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    No, you shouldn't pass a dps/capability check
    Raideen wrote: »
    idk wrote: »
    As someone who often queues with good players but leaves a slot open so we can see what we find as we can I think it is pointless to have a DPS check as there are too many factors involved. Sometimes we do get a decent player to fill out our group, but often the DPS is low and they keep dying. Not surprisingly, melee players found in the GF are often the worst offenders as they keep dying to the same avoidable PBAoEs. Instead of using a bow they run back into melee range and die again. We are nice to allow them to observe the remainder of the fight from the flat of their back.
    I voted "NO" to the DPS check, not sure of the relevance of this part of your post.

    I am expecting there is some context lost here given the part where I give my opinion on the subject of this thread is being singled out and its relevance is being questioned.
    Raideen wrote: »
    idk wrote: »
    There are options that are much better than a simplistic DPS check. FF14 has trials/tutorials for players based on role and it works quite well because boss fights tend to not be a DPS check since they have mechanics that need to be dealt with or avoided.
    I voted "NO" to the DPS check, not sure of the relevance of this part of your post.
    Raideen wrote: »
    idk wrote: »
    Beyond that, if you want to set specific requirements for your dungeon group then form your own group. It works well and is something a great many players have been doing successfully for years.
    I voted "NO" to the DPS check, not sure of the relevance of this part of your post.

    Suggesting there is a better system than a flat DPS check and that forming one's own group is a good solution when one wants to set a higher standard seems to also be of questionable relevance.

    I would suggest they are all very relevant to the topic of this thread. While I do disagree with people I do not suggest their comments that are on the subject of this thread are irrelevant. To each their own I suppose.
  • Moonspawn
    Moonspawn
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    No, you shouldn't pass a dps/capability check
    no sir
  • Kurat
    Kurat
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    If tanks and healers gave pug dps a chance and not bail after 1st trash pull, you'd be surprised how little dps is needed to complete vets. People who demand dps checks, rage, insult and leave group are either toxic elitists or looking for carry. I pug alot vet dlcs as tank and with little guidance 90% of them can be completed with 10-15k GROUP dps lol.
    When you use GF you need to have more patience. Dont expect speed, no death or hm. If you want achievements forum your own group.
  • Tsar_Gekkou
    Tsar_Gekkou
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    Yes, you must pass a dps/capability check.
    Kurat wrote: »
    If tanks and healers gave pug dps a chance and not bail after 1st trash pull, you'd be surprised how little dps is needed to complete vets. People who demand dps checks, rage, insult and leave group are either toxic elitists or looking for carry. I pug alot vet dlcs as tank and with little guidance 90% of them can be completed with 10-15k GROUP dps lol.
    When you use GF you need to have more patience. Dont expect speed, no death or hm. If you want achievements forum your own group.

    People aren't expecting speed, no death or hm or achievements, they just want to do a base game vet dungeon in under an hour since everyone doesn't have all day to play.
    Xbox NA healer main
    vAA HM | vHRC HM | vSO HM | vMoL HM | vHoF HM | vAS+2 | vCR+3 | vBRP | vSS HM | vKA HM | vRG HM |
    Flawless Conqueror | Spirit Slayer | Dro-mA'thra Destroyer | Tick-Tock-Tormentor | Immortal Redeemer | Gryphon Heart | Godslayer | Dawnbringer | Planesbreaker |
  • Apox
    Apox
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    Yes, you must pass a dps/capability check.
    stefj68 wrote: »
    90% of dungeon is not dps based its mechanics based, if their is a test it should be their aptitude to follow mechanics not how huge is my ...

    depends on the dungeon. ive read plenty of horror stories of people wiping for hours in non dlc vet dungeons that can be solod by a competent dps.

    if you cant find your fingers and at least try to pass as a dps, you dont belong in vet dungeons.
  • warabi
    warabi
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    Yes, you must pass a dps/capability check.
    I love healing and I'll sometimes tank, but I never pug dungeons or do them much at all now. I got so tired of low dps when I was playing support roles. I don't dps because it's really not my thing and I'm not very good at it, but even I can do better than a lot of dps in pugs I got stuck with. I think the people who get mad at those of us who get sick of it either haven't healed/tanked or are the low dps themselves. My breaking point was tanking vet Elden Hollow 1 and Chokethorn took around 15~20min. One the dps was just spamming Dizzying Swing on the boss the entire time.

    Anyway, this is always the bane of any type of online game with the typical tank/healer/dps roles. Most people want to dps regardless if they are good at it or care to improve.
  • spartaxoxo
    spartaxoxo
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    Yes, you must pass a dps/capability check.
    Wyrd88 wrote: »
    The results of this poll is a bit sad tbh.
    Lol just scrolling through here you can tell whos doing the carrying, and who the carries are.

    ^
    Pretty much this.

    Ya, the people voting "No" are the ones that can carry others, and know no dps check is needed for easy content.

    I can absolutely carry people on my dps. I voted yes. In fact, while I don't hit as hard as a meta build I hit harder than even the highest recommended checks in this thread. But I abandoned my healer and tank because I got frustrated running into dungeons where I was expected to carry or where they just couldn't be done with the dps in those dungeons.

    This content is ALREADY gated. You cannot queue as a level 30 into the activity finder. Because they know that you can't do it at that level and don't want you forcing a random team to carry you. The problem is that the restriction they have is not actually good enough for that objective.
    Edited by spartaxoxo on October 23, 2020 3:38AM
  • CrashTest
    CrashTest
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    Yes, you must pass a dps/capability check.
    Kurat wrote: »
    I pug alot vet dlcs as tank and with little guidance 90% of them can be completed with 10-15k GROUP dps lol.

    How long do those runs take?
  • xaraan
    xaraan
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    Yes, you must pass a dps/capability check.
    Yes, it doesn't prevent them from doing the dungeon on normal, but you don't even have to do the type of DPS you usually see in build videos to be a 'good dps' for a dungeon run. And they should at least be able to do the bare minimum imo.

    One of the main reasons I hate tanking pledges is b/c it's a crapshoot as to whether you'll have DPS that make the experience miserable.
    -- @xaraan --
    nightblade: Xaraan templar: Xaraan-dar dragon-knight: Xaraanosaurus necromancer: Xaraan-qa warden: Xaraanodon sorcerer: Xaraan-ra
    AD • NA • PC
  • renne
    renne
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    No, you shouldn't pass a dps/capability check
    If there's also a healer check and a tank check, sure.

    If the tank can't pull in adds in a trash mob fight they're going to be absolutely useless when it comes to a boss fight with adds, so really, they need a check. If most dps have to run a self-heal because they can't always trust the healers to be able to do their job, then healers need a check.

    We should probably also have a mechanics check since a lot of vet dungeons don't actually have dps races so making sure you know mechanics is actually more important than being able to hit a high number on some poor stationary dummy who can't fight back.

    Then we have some arbitrary number to gate DPS behind before they can go into vet dungeons with their checked tank and checked healer!

    We've done it guys, we've fixed pugs!
  • Kurat
    Kurat
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    People who complain about low dps, why don't you queue as fake tank or healer and do great dps, or change to dps gear on your support role and help DDs. Real tank or healer is not needed in base game vets or any normals. Its funny to read how some poor tank had to suffer crappy dps in dungeons like EH1, CoH1 etc lmao. Why rage quit and complain, do something about it yourself.
  • OlumoGarbag
    OlumoGarbag
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    Yes, you must pass a dps/capability check.
    They should implement a vet trial dungeon, when you que for a vet dungeon the first time similar maelstrom without bosses. Where you have to roll, block, interrupt mini mobs in order to pass.
    -Not having any damage above 5k
    -not knowing the base mechanics of the game
    -not being able to avoid damage

    Are the biggest pain point's of fake DDs in group que. If you would have to take that challenge first before queing for vet dungeons that would help old and new players alot.
    For example as soon as you hit cp10 you will get the quest at the undaunted enclave to test your battle skills in the trial arena.
    class representative for the working class, non-cp, bwb and Trolling
  • AyaDark
    AyaDark
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    Yes, you must pass a dps/capability check.
    Kurat wrote: »
    People who complain about low dps, why don't you queue as fake tank or healer and do great dps, or change to dps gear on your support role and help DDs. Real tank or healer is not needed in base game vets or any normals. Its funny to read how some poor tank had to suffer crappy dps in dungeons like EH1, CoH1 etc lmao. Why rage quit and complain, do something about it yourself.

    Why do not you give money to others with no reason ?

    DPS is there job. If they do not do it well Tank or Heal must not do anything with DPS.

    It is not there task.

    Healers job us - healing. Tanks job - get agr and take damage.
    They even must not buff or put any sets for dps, but if DPS who do nothing now start thinking, that they are the most important role - with there 10 k dps and die all time standing in aoe play, they do not deserve any help.

    They only deserve to be kicked.
  • Grianasteri
    Grianasteri
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    The issue is, these people have as much right as you to queue for the dungeon.

    It may be intensely annoying that their dps is so unacceptably low, but they paid their money the same as you.

    Given the game also makes precisely no effort to teach people how to improve their dps, it would feel a bit harsh to me, to punish people for low dps.

    Teach dont kick, is my principle.
  • Tsar_Gekkou
    Tsar_Gekkou
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    Yes, you must pass a dps/capability check.
    The issue is, these people have as much right as you to queue for the dungeon.

    It may be intensely annoying that their dps is so unacceptably low, but they paid their money the same as you.

    Given the game also makes precisely no effort to teach people how to improve their dps, it would feel a bit harsh to me, to punish people for low dps.

    Teach dont kick, is my principle.

    Sounds good on paper, but most of the time when I tried to help people out, they either didn't have text chat up, ignored it, or told me to screw off and let them do what they're doing, so I don't bother helping people unless they ask a question, because that shows they're willing to learn.
    Xbox NA healer main
    vAA HM | vHRC HM | vSO HM | vMoL HM | vHoF HM | vAS+2 | vCR+3 | vBRP | vSS HM | vKA HM | vRG HM |
    Flawless Conqueror | Spirit Slayer | Dro-mA'thra Destroyer | Tick-Tock-Tormentor | Immortal Redeemer | Gryphon Heart | Godslayer | Dawnbringer | Planesbreaker |
  • Grianasteri
    Grianasteri
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    The issue is, these people have as much right as you to queue for the dungeon.

    It may be intensely annoying that their dps is so unacceptably low, but they paid their money the same as you.

    Given the game also makes precisely no effort to teach people how to improve their dps, it would feel a bit harsh to me, to punish people for low dps.

    Teach dont kick, is my principle.

    Sounds good on paper, but most of the time when I tried to help people out, they either didn't have text chat up, ignored it, or told me to screw off and let them do what they're doing, so I don't bother helping people unless they ask a question, because that shows they're willing to learn.

    Indeed, I have had exactly the same many times when trying to help people or explain mechs etc. Sadly that is human nature for some.

    Clearly the kick facility exists for a reason. Its just not my first priority is all and it sadly is for too many people, in my experience. I also totally get that it can be a time thing, it takes time to help and carry dungeons etc.
  • warabi
    warabi
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    Yes, you must pass a dps/capability check.
    Kurat wrote: »
    People who complain about low dps, why don't you queue as fake tank or healer and do great dps, or change to dps gear on your support role and help DDs. Real tank or healer is not needed in base game vets or any normals. Its funny to read how some poor tank had to suffer crappy dps in dungeons like EH1, CoH1 etc lmao. Why rage quit and complain, do something about it yourself.

    Your solution is to do something that pisses people off in the first place or put the burden of doing the dps' job on the supports. Pure logic right here.
  • josiahva
    josiahva
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    No, you shouldn't pass a dps/capability check
    While the idea is great in theory, the consequence is that a large amount of the playerbase would find themselves locked out of content that they paid for...this would have the effect of pugs having better DPS....at the cost of many people leaving the game...they would not be encouraged to get better...they would be encouraged to quit.

    Think of it another way. How many ESO players play Demon Souls/Dark Souls? Very very few....those are great games...but you don't get far in them if you aren't a decent player....most people try those games and quit after a few hours. Whereas people with bad DPS can easily be encouraged and taught how to be better DPS...if they aren't excluded from the start.

    In the end, all these problems with group finder stem from the fact people are using group finder....if you have expectations from a group...don't use group finder, make a pre-made and have all your expectations met. As a matter of fact....I have no idea why DPS use group finder at all with the queue times...its far faster to put together a group yourself.
  • LadyNalcarya
    LadyNalcarya
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    Yes, you must pass a dps/capability check.
    The issue is, these people have as much right as you to queue for the dungeon.

    It may be intensely annoying that their dps is so unacceptably low, but they paid their money the same as you.

    Given the game also makes precisely no effort to teach people how to improve their dps, it would feel a bit harsh to me, to punish people for low dps.

    Teach dont kick, is my principle.

    It might sound nice, but most people don't want to be taught. They think they're doing perfectly fine and the rest of the group is there to carry them. I don't try to teach anymore (unless someone is asking) but when I used to try helping people with mechanics and stuff, they'd just ignore me most of the time. Some would even get mad at me for implying that their build may not be suited for veteran dungeons. And yes, they have the right to queue, but other people have the right to avoid playing with them. This is why there's so many posts complaining about shortage of tanks.
    Having to do a dps test would only help people gauge their own performance, so they will at least know if they're carrying their own weight or not. A lot of people are like "I'm using Alcasts build so I'm automatically skilled enough to do anything", and it makes things worse for everyone. Including underperforming players who think that everyone who doesn't want to carry them is an elitist. It would be much better if the game would include a few tutorials on dungeon roles and dps basics (rotation, magicka/stamina build basics and such). Of course, it should only apply to vet dungeons so that more casual players would still be able to do normals and wouldn't be locked out of content.
    Edited by LadyNalcarya on October 23, 2020 5:20PM
    Dro-m'Athra Destroyer | Divayth Fyr's Coadjutor | Voice of Reason

    PC/EU
  • LadyNalcarya
    LadyNalcarya
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    Yes, you must pass a dps/capability check.
    josiahva wrote: »
    While the idea is great in theory, the consequence is that a large amount of the playerbase would find themselves locked out of content that they paid for...

    Not if they queue for normal. Difficulty modes are here for a reason and there's absolutely no need to push yourself to play on harder difficulty.
    Dro-m'Athra Destroyer | Divayth Fyr's Coadjutor | Voice of Reason

    PC/EU
  • spartaxoxo
    spartaxoxo
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    Yes, you must pass a dps/capability check.
    josiahva wrote: »
    While the idea is great in theory, the consequence is that a large amount of the playerbase would find themselves locked out of content that they paid for...this would have the effect of pugs having better DPS....at the cost of many people leaving the game...they would not be encouraged to get better...they would be encouraged to quit.

    Think of it another way. How many ESO players play Demon Souls/Dark Souls? Very very few....those are great games...but you don't get far in them if you aren't a decent player....most people try those games and quit after a few hours. Whereas people with bad DPS can easily be encouraged and taught how to be better DPS...if they aren't excluded from the start.

    In the end, all these problems with group finder stem from the fact people are using group finder....if you have expectations from a group...don't use group finder, make a pre-made and have all your expectations met. As a matter of fact....I have no idea why DPS use group finder at all with the queue times...its far faster to put together a group yourself.

    Can we stop with the idea that they would be locked out of content they paid for? They wouldn't be. Pickup groups is a thing. Guild and Friend groups is a thing. Normal mode is a thing. Nobody says "they are locked out of content they paid for" when these people can't do no deaths or speed runs and lose out on titles or cosmetics. Nobody says that they are locked out when they are level 25 and cannot queue for the dungeon.

    Part of any videogame is the expectation that are things you have to dedicate time or have the talent in order to do, and that's especially true of multiplayer content. You don't see me complaining that I can't use the Emperor's regalia when I haven't put much effort into pvp. I paid 60 bucks for that content too.

    Hell for some of these people it could actually improve their experience greatly. How many casual players have come on this forum time and time again and asked for a way to skip vet dlc content in their random vets? The number is quite high. Have a separate, higher dps check for DLC dungeons like 15k for base and 25k for vet. And guess what, if they don't want to queue for those dungeons they can skip the certification for them. And then never have to worry about them being their random vet again
    Edited by spartaxoxo on October 23, 2020 5:08PM
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